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On December 15 2011 01:56 makk wrote:
The premier league also has pointless matches. If a team is already guaranteed to be regulated they still play the remainder of their games even if they mean nothing. They don't just go out and kick the ball into their own net or something.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional and deserves to be punished (imo)
Of those meaningless matches, how many are actually interesting to watch? How many actually get watched by anyone except die-hard fans?
Do we really want to copy silly formats of antiquated sports? No, I would rather GOM fess up and promise to not use a useless-match-inducing format again.
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100000000% the correct decision. Naniwa doesn't deserve to be a pro gamer unless he changes his ways.
Though the format is also partly at fault, it doesn't matter, Naniwa is a selfish arrogant bastard who doesn't give a shit about fans, about esports, about honour. Just prize money. Fuck him.
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Good that they are laying down the law. This isn't a one time thing from naniwa, he has a history of unprofessionalism, and BM. before, he was only disqualified on the tournament (usually on the last day after the penalties accumulated). glad to see that he is seeing the repercussions for his actions.
For people who claim they shouldn't play meaningless games, should the NFL keep playing teams that have no chance of making playoffs? Even when they play each other? I mean in a couple weeks, the colts and jags are playing (both eliminated from playoffs). If anything, losing is an incentive because they can get a higher draft pick. So in the NFL, there is actually an incentive to lose. Should they though? I mean by your arguments, there is no reason for them to play a meaningless game and there is no reason for them to win. So NFL is obviously a retarded system that is unprofessional and stupid.
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Naniwa has always had an "above the rules" attitude. His NASL games against strelok come to mind.
It's good that Nani gets punished hard for acting like a spoiled kid. He's got some serious talent, all he needs is to be taught some humility as is expected of a professional, career-gamer.
It's the same problem I have with Idra, though Idra at least knows better than to piss off tournament organizers.
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On December 15 2011 02:01 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:56 makk wrote:
The premier league also has pointless matches. If a team is already guaranteed to be regulated they still play the remainder of their games even if they mean nothing. They don't just go out and kick the ball into their own net or something.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional and deserves to be punished (imo) Of those meaningless matches, how many are actually interesting to watch? How many actually get watched by anyone except die-hard fans? Do we really want to copy silly formats of antiquated sports? No, I would rather GOM fess up and promise to not use a useless-match-inducing format again.
it's not about it meaningless or not, it's the ATTITUDE. Sure, there are meaningless match and there are not, but if you have steped into the game, you should at least show some professionalism, this is common sense in all kind of sports.
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On December 15 2011 02:01 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:56 makk wrote:
The premier league also has pointless matches. If a team is already guaranteed to be regulated they still play the remainder of their games even if they mean nothing. They don't just go out and kick the ball into their own net or something.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional and deserves to be punished (imo) Of those meaningless matches, how many are actually interesting to watch? How many actually get watched by anyone except die-hard fans? Do we really want to copy silly formats of antiquated sports? No, I would rather GOM fess up and promise to not use a useless-match-inducing format again.
Are you saying that a bad format justifies Naniwa's behaviour? You don't think he should have taken his complaints to a better forum than a live broadcasted match?
They should change their format. And the punishment might have been too hard. But that doesnt justify what Nani did.
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I am not looking to defend Naniwa here. I don't appreciate what he did. It's not a big deal though, in my humble opinion, as the outcome of the game was inconsequential.
I must admit I find it extremely unprofessional to take steps as to revoke a seed from Naniwa with the grounds of him displaying disrespect and then continue to suggest he's an amateur prize hunter. That is double standards and the sign of an organisation getting carried away by simple controversy that has received more attention than it really deserves.
They are acting more disgraceful than Naniwa did.
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On December 15 2011 02:02 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
100000000% the correct decision. Naniwa doesn't deserve to be a pro gamer unless he changes his ways.
Seriously?
What about other professional sports players who have done far worse than throw a useless match. Michael Vick fought and killed dogs, he served jail time, but is still a professional player.
Doesn't deserve something he has worked harder for than you ever could? He deserves the title professional more than you deserve the title fan. If you can't respect the amount of work and blood and tears and sacrifice these guys make for the moniker 'professional' then please stop being a fan.
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On December 15 2011 02:01 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:56 makk wrote:
The premier league also has pointless matches. If a team is already guaranteed to be regulated they still play the remainder of their games even if they mean nothing. They don't just go out and kick the ball into their own net or something.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional and deserves to be punished (imo) Of those meaningless matches, how many are actually interesting to watch? How many actually get watched by anyone except die-hard fans? Do we really want to copy silly formats of antiquated sports? No, I would rather GOM fess up and promise to not use a useless-match-inducing format again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibition_game
In the end, StarCraft, and StarCraft matches, are entertainment. Pro gamers are entertainers.
Naniwa's actions did not entertain. He did not do his job. That's really all there is to say.
On December 15 2011 02:04 Chronald wrote:
Doesn't deserve something he has worked harder for than you ever could? He deserves the title professional more than you deserve the title fan. If you can't respect the amount of work and blood and tears and sacrifice these guys make for the moniker 'professional' then please stop being a fan.
Fuzzylogic44's status as a fan has nothing to do with this. Stop attacking people.
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On December 15 2011 02:05 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:01 Chronald wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 makk wrote:
The premier league also has pointless matches. If a team is already guaranteed to be regulated they still play the remainder of their games even if they mean nothing. They don't just go out and kick the ball into their own net or something.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional and deserves to be punished (imo) Of those meaningless matches, how many are actually interesting to watch? How many actually get watched by anyone except die-hard fans? Do we really want to copy silly formats of antiquated sports? No, I would rather GOM fess up and promise to not use a useless-match-inducing format again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibition_gameIn the end, StarCraft, and StarCraft matches, are entertainment. Pro gamers are entertainers. Naniwa's actions did not entertain. He did not do his job. That's really all there is to say. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:04 Chronald wrote:
Doesn't deserve something he has worked harder for than you ever could? He deserves the title professional more than you deserve the title fan. If you can't respect the amount of work and blood and tears and sacrifice these guys make for the moniker 'professional' then please stop being a fan. Fuzzylogic44's status as a fan has nothing to do with this. Stop attacking people.
merely quoting to emphasize that i agree with all of his point, READ IT
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On December 14 2011 18:40 Archerylady wrote:how incredibly unprofessional of gom. naniwa didn't break any rules. they should learn from their mistake and change their rules forbidding naniwas behavior, but instead they stoop far lower than naniwa did and do this. twitter comfirmation: http://twitter.com/#!/Ethan_Ahn/status/146884383549308929
This type argument needs to stop coming up. It is incredibly ignorant. It was the same argument that the defense attempted to use to at Nuremberg Trials in Germany at the end of the World War II and was proven false there too. It was argued then that because genocide had never been officially outlawed, that German leaders responsible for the Holocaust should not be punished, and only those who commit genocide from this point forward be punished.
Now, I am not comparing what Naniwa did to what those responsible for the Holocaust did. I am comparing the line of reasoning used to defend both, because it is the same and it is wrong.
You cannot defend what Naniwa did, just because there was no written rules against it, doesn't make it okay. If you want argue it was his choice how to play, then it is GOM's choice of who gets to play in the their league.
People paid to see matches for entertainment and Naniwa made a mockery of the people who paid and GOM. Apparently he doesn't realize that making a mockery of those who pay him is a bad idea.
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On December 15 2011 02:03 UBavarice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:01 Chronald wrote:On December 15 2011 01:56 makk wrote:
The premier league also has pointless matches. If a team is already guaranteed to be regulated they still play the remainder of their games even if they mean nothing. They don't just go out and kick the ball into their own net or something.
What Naniwa did was unprofessional and deserves to be punished (imo) Of those meaningless matches, how many are actually interesting to watch? How many actually get watched by anyone except die-hard fans? Do we really want to copy silly formats of antiquated sports? No, I would rather GOM fess up and promise to not use a useless-match-inducing format again. Are you saying that a bad format justifies Naniwa's behaviour? You don't think he should have taken his complaints to a better forum than a live broadcasted match? They should change their format. And the punishment might have been too hard. But that doesnt justify what Nani did.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying NaNi's behavior is a direct result of GOM's terrible format. What NaNiwa did is only offensive if you jump on the bandwagon. Otherwise all that really happened is we didn't get to see a match that wasn't going to be good anyways.
It is the responsibility of GOM to bring interesting and MEANINGFUL matches to the audience. Here is my last post to this thread and final thoughts :
If GOM can't provide a meaningful match to watch, doesn't that offend you? As a paying Blizzard Cup watcher, isn't it offensive that they have matches, that inherently due to the structure of the tournament, won't be entertaining since the players have no motivation to actually play hard?
Stop jumping on Chae's bandwagon and use your own head. Does it matter to you that much? Did NaNi actually offend you as a fan? I guess if you take offense to something like this you simply don't understand high level strategy games, and I can respect that. However, in a forum full of people who claim to understand strategy and high level though, to see this much blind rage is saddening. It isn't like he threw a match in the finals, or planned this ahead of time with NesTea (which would have made this match FIXING, not THROWING), all he did was not play in a joke game.
Artosis brought up the point of BoxeR's 'joke' games from BW where when he fell into this kind of spot he would just do silly strats. Frankly, this is offensive to me, and would be more offensive than throwing the match. This is because frankly, professional players are meant to show professional strats and thinking. If you actually consider the probe rush, what it implies (that NaNi has a seriously awesome anti-NesTea build in the cooker), and what it actually impacted, hopefully you can clear the cloud of mob-mentality and realize he doesn't deserve to not be able to play.
GOM's role in this has been anything but good for their company and their viewer numbers, I will be interested to see how many less people watch next Code S, after this and the new price structure I think their 2012 may be different than GOM hopes.
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On December 15 2011 01:58 Chronald wrote:You have watched American Football right? Most games? Players, ALL THE PLAYERS, leave the field BEFORE THE GAME IS OVER. When the results of the match are final, they END THE GAME. Simple as that. To say NaNiwa did something wrong is like telling someone who points out your mistake they are retarded. GOM messed up, NaNiwa called them on it, and GOM lashed out like a child. What about proxy 2-gate? It has a ~0% winrate in GSL, but players still use it. Isn't this the same as preventing interesting games? When I see someone going for this strat I turn the vod off and either watch the next game, or the next match. Guess what? I've never been wrong about guessing who loses, its the proxy-gater. By this same ruling, GOM needs to revoke the seed of each player who has proxy-gated their opponent because it offends the audience.
Yes, I watch NFL games every Sunday/Monday/Thursday. Players don't leave the field in the middle of the 4th quarter when they are losing 45-0 (which is what Naniwa did). They play the game out. They only leave the field when the game actually is over (team which is losing has no opportunity to run more plays before time expires). And anyone who doesn't play with their full effort during those last minutes will surely get benched for the next game(s), if not released from the team.
And worker rush + a-move with hands on chin and not using keyboard =/= proxy 2-gate. About as unprofessional as you can get when it comes to playing SC2 at a live, televised tournament.
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the frequent eurocentrism here sickens me sometimes
naniwa went to korea to play in a tournament. it was of his own volition. gomtv invite him, thinking he was good enough of a progamer to merit being there. you're in korea, follow the koreans' goddamn rules. someone mentioned "well why are koreans expecting nani to follow their rules when they don't follow his culture's rules"... this would be a perfectly valid point except:
1. nani is a visitor in korea. it is on him to stay mannered in his host country.
2. and being bm and unprofessional and giving up on a game is something that nani's culture tolerates, then? koreans are supposed to say, oh, well, nani's being a big baby but that's what his culture encourages so we should leave him alone? do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
i'll give you an example. in korea, no-one gives a shit if you say the word "깜둥이" which is roughly equivalent to n***** in english. i go to the us. i go up to an african american and say hi n*****. you think the dude's going to not beat me up because it's ok in korea to say that word?
seriously. if you're a visitor in a country, you simply can't go around thinking the culture norms around you don't apply to you. nani, having been in korea for some time and being in a practice house and whatnot KNOWS what kinds of standards are expected from games played by progamers as well as the gamers themselves.
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If Naniwa actually forfeited because he felt the game was unimportant because he was out of the tournament I 500000% agree with this decision and the statement from the GSL.
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On December 15 2011 01:58 Chronald wrote:You have watched American Football right? Most games? Players, ALL THE PLAYERS, leave the field BEFORE THE GAME IS OVER. When the results of the match are final, they END THE GAME. Simple as that. To say NaNiwa did something wrong is like telling someone who points out your mistake they are retarded. GOM messed up, NaNiwa called them on it, and GOM lashed out like a child. What about proxy 2-gate? It has a ~0% winrate in GSL, but players still use it. Isn't this the same as preventing interesting games? When I see someone going for this strat I turn the vod off and either watch the next game, or the next match. Guess what? I've never been wrong about guessing who loses, its the proxy-gater. By this same ruling, GOM needs to revoke the seed of each player who has proxy-gated their opponent because it offends the audience.
And you know what, the first time I watch it when I came to America, I thought that was stupid, unprofessional.
I guess now it's time for some people to taste that feeling.
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On December 15 2011 02:04 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:02 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
100000000% the correct decision. Naniwa doesn't deserve to be a pro gamer unless he changes his ways. Seriously? What about other professional sports players who have done far worse than throw a useless match. Michael Vick fought and killed dogs, he served jail time, but is still a professional player. Doesn't deserve something he has worked harder for than you ever could? He deserves the title professional more than you deserve the title fan. If you can't respect the amount of work and blood and tears and sacrifice these guys make for the moniker 'professional' then please stop being a fan.
He didn't do his dog fights in the middle of one of his games. He doesn't deserve the title of professional because he wasn't being a professional.
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LOL at people who are threatening to protest against this. GOM would never give Naniwa the code S seed back, he'll need to earn it. Giving it back will only hurt their image with 99% of the koreans and 50% of the foreigners. Besides, i'm sure some of you will come back after 1 week.
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On December 15 2011 02:02 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
100000000% the correct decision. Naniwa doesn't deserve to be a pro gamer unless he changes his ways.
Though the format is also partly at fault, it doesn't matter, Naniwa is a selfish arrogant bastard who doesn't give a shit about fans, about esports, about honour. Just prize money. Fuck him.
He was kicked out of his home as a teenager for playing Warcraft III too much and had to stay at a friends, but then never gave up on his passion and dreams. He doesn't deserve to be a progamer because he doesn't want to waste time with pointless matches that don't mean anything? If you want to watch matches that don't matter then go watch someone's stream.
Reference: http://www.gosugamers.net/warcraft/news/7774
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On December 15 2011 02:04 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:02 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
100000000% the correct decision. Naniwa doesn't deserve to be a pro gamer unless he changes his ways. Seriously? What about other professional sports players who have done far worse than throw a useless match. Michael Vick fought and killed dogs, he served jail time, but is still a professional player. Doesn't deserve something he has worked harder for than you ever could? He deserves the title professional more than you deserve the title fan. If you can't respect the amount of work and blood and tears and sacrifice these guys make for the moniker 'professional' then please stop being a fan.
I'm aware of how much he puts into it, the guy is a machine. What he doesn't realize though is that there is no prize money for him to win if players don't put some effort into growing esports and not hurting it by sabotaging gom or MLG with embarrassing displays.
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EPT
