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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 05:02 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:59 Plansix wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace. Uhhh Any sport with a regular season has this done. Ever heard of basketball, football, baseball, ie any game with a regular season and a playoffs afterwards. This isn't 100% comparable but it's the same thing. Have you never heard of a football team purposefully losing more games at the end of a season once they know they are out, for a better draft pick the next season?
And all of these happen 30 minutes after the team is eliminated from the league? No, the team is left alone until the next game, which could be tomorrow or in a week. Would Nani have played a better game if the placement match was held the next day? Most likely and he has done so before.
The match is not the problem. It is the time frame after a major loss.
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On December 14 2011 05:10 ChaosTriggeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. You could argue that resting your starters in a meaningless game is basically throwing it.So then the Colts resting their starters when they secured the first seed in the afc is purposely losing since I've never seen a team of second stringers beating a team of first string players.
no because the players who play the game still give their best.
fielding B team is same as cannon rushing. which would have been more acceptable.
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On December 14 2011 05:10 ChaosTriggeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. You could argue that resting your starters in a meaningless game is basically throwing it.So then the Colts resting their starters when they secured the first seed in the afc is purposely losing since I've never seen a team of second stringers beating a team of first string players.
The spirit behind that is entirely different, thought.
The spirit behind that is more like "I need to play really well in this later game!" If anything, this just emphasizes how important the league is to the team.
The spirit behind this move is simply, "Meh, too lazy to play this game I was paid to play. Screw the fans who paid to see me play my rival Nestea, I am going home."
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Imho, whether the game should've been played or not is irrelevant... If it's being casted and played, you should play it.
The players are being paid to play, so they should play when the system requires it, "meaningful" or not.
Not only the players are involved. Gom has contracts with, and commitments towards its sponsors (maybe they promised a set number of games?), lots of people paid to see games, maybe even paid to see the grudge match between Nani and Nestea. It does set a bad image.
There's also a big difference in the perception of respect and honour between Korea and the west. If a player sits down to play you, you should respect that.
Kinda like you don't cut your noodles while eating them, you'd insult the cook...
I'm not judging, but I really understand all the commotion.
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On December 14 2011 05:08 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:36 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 04:31 Trsjnica wrote:
I would like to see Naniwa barred from future GSL events, or at least one or two.
People paid good money to see these games. Part of that payment was to get to see an epid Naniwa vs Nestea game--even part of the hype thread for this day was about that match. Whether it would have change the outcome or not, people wanted to see the match and paid to see the match. I will maintain that if you expected players to try their hardest in a game that had absolutely no bearing on their tournament results, you failed as an observer. Naniwa did not fail as a player. If you're worried about the money you paid, you should be mad at GOM for showing you games that had no bearing on their tournament. Most don't expect him to play his hardest. But most wanted to see him play. As I stated before, he could have just seen it as a ladder match, give one game. It could be bad and people would still call out on him not giving his hardest I'm sure, but just throwing away the game is way way worse then not giving his all.
So now you want him to play a game of Goldilocks. There are no gradients for losing. Once you abandon winning, there's no difference between a worker rush and a macro game. Naniwa understands that. Why waste his time on a loss?
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On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this.
It's funny how you used Colts as an example as they have done just that not many seasons ago. To rest their starters for the playoffs and avoid injuries in a meaningless game for them, that actually had implications for other teams.
Did it cause serious consequences? Not at all. They received some critismism and moved on.
I don't understand why Nestea and Naniwa even had to play this game, I don't see why a meaningless match like this isn't just forfeited. The format shouldn't allow for meaningless matches, there should at least be something at stake.
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On December 14 2011 05:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:02 ExO_ wrote:On December 14 2011 04:59 Plansix wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace. Uhhh Any sport with a regular season has this done. Ever heard of basketball, football, baseball, ie any game with a regular season and a playoffs afterwards. This isn't 100% comparable but it's the same thing. Have you never heard of a football team purposefully losing more games at the end of a season once they know they are out, for a better draft pick the next season? And all of these happen 30 minutes after the team is eliminated from the league? No, the team is left alone until the next game, which could be tomorrow or in a week. Would Nani have played a better game if the placement match was held the next day? Most likely and he has done so before. The match is not the problem. It is the time frame after a major loss.
Why does it matter if the game is 30 seconds later, a day later, a month later?
So, by your logic then, people who withdrew from the NASL with a month to go because they had no chance of winning--that is terrible because there was a lot of time between games. Meanwhile, this is fine.
So if an MLB team is scheduled to play a double-header, and they lose the first game and are mathematically knocked out of contention for the playoffs, they would be correct to throw the second game in a double-header, but not if the second game is played a week later?
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i don't think throwing the match when he's already out of the tournament matters at all. he may have disappointed people who wanted to see those two play, but actually i think from a competitive pov it makes perfect sense to leave when it is pointless. there are things he could have done to end the game quickly without treating it like it matters (a safer allin like cannon rush  ), but that's really about the viewer's tastes and not the competitor's. also, people that say teams and players in sports never give up when it is completely pointless to continue are wrong.
i will agree that it is obvious that naniwa is good at getting negative attention.
*and i would agree with the posts i've read stating that the tournament format seems flawed if people are playing each other without any stakes.
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Team sport compared to individual.
Tournament compared to season league.
Totally different kinds of competitions.
Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
Lets make the comparison better. In tournament golf, an individual tournament sport played throughout the globe, players are often in a position that they will certainly miss the cut after the second round. They will have no bearing on the final outcome and in fact will often not earn prize money for the event. Yet they are still required to finish the round and face huge fines and suspensions if they don't. This is done so that the fans who paid to see the event get to see the entire round - even if the player has no chance of winning.
ESports needs to either be more professional in the actions of the players or remain a fringe niche for a bunch of nerds. I sincerely hope it is the former.
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On December 14 2011 04:29 ZAiNs wrote:Tyler summed it up the best: Show nested quote +People act like what Naniwa did is unprecedented. It's not. It's common. Naniwa just took it to the logical, non-deceptive extreme. People are acting like Naniwa did this when someone else's neck was on the line...
Just because it's common doesn't mean it's right or that these guys are acting as they should be when they do it. Tyler absolutely did not sum it up best at all, stop being a fanboy.
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It is not about throwing a match away, It is about the manner he did.
There was 0 possibility he was going to win the game with probe rushing. If he at least cannon rushed, it would have been better.
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On December 14 2011 05:13 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:10 ChaosTriggeR wrote:On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. You could argue that resting your starters in a meaningless game is basically throwing it.So then the Colts resting their starters when they secured the first seed in the afc is purposely losing since I've never seen a team of second stringers beating a team of first string players. The spirit behind that is entirely different, thought. The spirit behind that is more like "I need to play really well in this later game!" If anything, this just emphasizes how important the league is to the team. The spirit behind this move is simply, "Meh, too lazy to play this game I was paid to play. Screw the fans who paid to see me play my rival Nestea, I am going home."
Dude it had nothing to do with being lazy lol... He got very emotional which happens to all the players especially how his games went, am i happy with what happened? No but no one here was in his shoes and can imagine what he was feeling at the time.
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On December 14 2011 05:16 Serge13102 wrote:Show nested quote +
Team sport compared to individual.
Tournament compared to season league.
Totally different kinds of competitions.
Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
Lets make the comparison better. In tournament golf, an individual tournament sport played throughout the globe, players are often in a position that they will certainly miss the cut after the second round. They will have no bearing on the final outcome and in fact will often not earn prize money for the event. Yet they are still required to finish the round and face huge fines and suspensions if they don't. This is done so that the fans who paid to see the event get to see the entire round - even if the player has no chance of winning. ESports needs to either be more professional in the actions of the players or remain a fringe niche for a bunch of nerds. I sincerely hope it is the former.
And don't you wonder why they introduced those fines and suspensions. Maybe, just maybe it was because players who didn't perform well often quit halfway through?
Either SC2 needs those kinds of regulations or they need to design their tournament systems better.
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On December 14 2011 05:09 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:08 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. He was paid $800 or whatever it was to show up and sign a consent form. So yes, he does owe it to the people who gave him money to just simply be there to put on a show. Wasn't he invited based on results to play in the blizzard cup?
I never said anything about what qualified him to be invited. It doesn't even matter really. GOM concocted a tournament when they didn't have to, said if you win X or Y tournament you qualify, and they invited Naniwa cause he came runner up in one of those tournaments. That has absolutely no bearing on the fact that he was paid money just to show up to a tournament.
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On December 14 2011 05:20 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:16 Serge13102 wrote:
Team sport compared to individual.
Tournament compared to season league.
Totally different kinds of competitions.
Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
Lets make the comparison better. In tournament golf, an individual tournament sport played throughout the globe, players are often in a position that they will certainly miss the cut after the second round. They will have no bearing on the final outcome and in fact will often not earn prize money for the event. Yet they are still required to finish the round and face huge fines and suspensions if they don't. This is done so that the fans who paid to see the event get to see the entire round - even if the player has no chance of winning. ESports needs to either be more professional in the actions of the players or remain a fringe niche for a bunch of nerds. I sincerely hope it is the former. And don't you wonder why they introduced those fines and suspensions. Maybe, just maybe it was because players who didn't perform well often quit halfway through? Either SC2 needs those kinds of regulations or they need to design their tournament systems better.
lol you are funny. why do you think they do not let their players just quit the game?
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On December 14 2011 05:19 cmen15 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:13 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 05:10 ChaosTriggeR wrote:On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. You could argue that resting your starters in a meaningless game is basically throwing it.So then the Colts resting their starters when they secured the first seed in the afc is purposely losing since I've never seen a team of second stringers beating a team of first string players. The spirit behind that is entirely different, thought. The spirit behind that is more like "I need to play really well in this later game!" If anything, this just emphasizes how important the league is to the team. The spirit behind this move is simply, "Meh, too lazy to play this game I was paid to play. Screw the fans who paid to see me play my rival Nestea, I am going home." Dude it had nothing to do with being lazy lol... He got very emotional which happens to all the players especially how his games went, am i happy with what happened? No but no one here was in his shoes and can imagine what he was feeling at the time.
He can feel down as much as he wants, but the key to "professionalism" is acting like a professional and going out there and doing what you are paid to do.
If he wants to be a "professional" gamer in the biggest professional gaming league, he should act like a professional.
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On December 14 2011 05:20 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:16 Serge13102 wrote:
Team sport compared to individual.
Tournament compared to season league.
Totally different kinds of competitions.
Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
Lets make the comparison better. In tournament golf, an individual tournament sport played throughout the globe, players are often in a position that they will certainly miss the cut after the second round. They will have no bearing on the final outcome and in fact will often not earn prize money for the event. Yet they are still required to finish the round and face huge fines and suspensions if they don't. This is done so that the fans who paid to see the event get to see the entire round - even if the player has no chance of winning. ESports needs to either be more professional in the actions of the players or remain a fringe niche for a bunch of nerds. I sincerely hope it is the former. And don't you wonder why they introduced those fines and suspensions. Maybe, just maybe it was because players who didn't perform well often quit halfway through? Either SC2 needs those kinds of regulations or they need to design their tournament systems better.
regulation should come when there is abuse. 1 person throwing a no-stakes game is not abuse. i think this tournament's format was clearly flawed.
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On December 14 2011 05:15 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:11 Plansix wrote:On December 14 2011 05:02 ExO_ wrote:On December 14 2011 04:59 Plansix wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace. Uhhh Any sport with a regular season has this done. Ever heard of basketball, football, baseball, ie any game with a regular season and a playoffs afterwards. This isn't 100% comparable but it's the same thing. Have you never heard of a football team purposefully losing more games at the end of a season once they know they are out, for a better draft pick the next season? And all of these happen 30 minutes after the team is eliminated from the league? No, the team is left alone until the next game, which could be tomorrow or in a week. Would Nani have played a better game if the placement match was held the next day? Most likely and he has done so before. The match is not the problem. It is the time frame after a major loss. Why does it matter if the game is 30 seconds later, a day later, a month later? So, by your logic then, people who withdrew from the NASL with a month to go because they had no chance of winning--that is terrible because there was a lot of time between games. Meanwhile, this is fine. So if an MLB team is scheduled to play a double-header, and they lose the first game and are mathematically knocked out of contention for the playoffs, they would be correct to throw the second game in a double-header, but not if the second game is played a week later?
Um....by my logic the the players in the NASL still played their pointless matches because they had time to decompress after their elmination match. No one should withdraw or throw games. And if a double header happens to be an elmination match in the first game and the team lost, I would not be shocked if the team played like crap second game. And those games are set up months in advance, before the records are known. The game at Blizzard Cup was set up with the full knowlage that the players would be eliminated right before the match.
My point is the match should not have been played right after the elimination match.
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On December 14 2011 05:20 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:16 Serge13102 wrote:
Team sport compared to individual.
Tournament compared to season league.
Totally different kinds of competitions.
Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
Lets make the comparison better. In tournament golf, an individual tournament sport played throughout the globe, players are often in a position that they will certainly miss the cut after the second round. They will have no bearing on the final outcome and in fact will often not earn prize money for the event. Yet they are still required to finish the round and face huge fines and suspensions if they don't. This is done so that the fans who paid to see the event get to see the entire round - even if the player has no chance of winning. ESports needs to either be more professional in the actions of the players or remain a fringe niche for a bunch of nerds. I sincerely hope it is the former. And don't you wonder why they introduced those fines and suspensions. Maybe, just maybe it was because players who didn't perform well often quit halfway through? Either SC2 needs those kinds of regulations or they need to design their tournament systems better.
That's all fine and good. But at the end of the day, you shouldn't have to baby players by instilling a rule, they should be able to think about this kind of stuff for themselves, how these decisions can affect their own reputation and the reputation of those that the player represents. Maybe teams need to pay for PR training.
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EPT
