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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.)
If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences?
Absolutely.
And so should this.
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I just love how big people are making this. It sounds like some big political scandal. Canada pulled out of the koyto agreement, libya is in still at war, the global warming is fucking up the planet.....nah naniwa probe rushed in a game that ment nothing and some poor kids got upset....buhuuuu!!
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On December 14 2011 04:22 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:18 JackDragon wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." No they don't place higher in a league for good manners and passion they do however get more fans, sponsors and as a resault more money so it is in most teams best to show showmanship. And in SC2 more then any other sport it is important. This have only brought bad publicity for naniwa, his team and his sponsores. Also keep in mind that he actually was paid to play in this competition, not that he had to play his A-game for the last match, but he could atleast have played it like a normal ladder game. Wasn't he invited based on results? I agree that it's a stupid business decision to do something like this. What i dislike is the whiners who blow it out of proportion.
He was, but that was not really my point. The point is that if he continues to act like this then more leagues will ban him from their tournaments. I know a lot of swedish tournaments have banned him already so it is nothing new.
People need to remember that while naniwa has no obligation to play the last match because it is "meaningless" GOM have no obligation to invite him to the next event if he don't play all his games. At the same time there are a lot of people who would have enjoyed that game, but now only very few, if anyone, enjoyed the game. Also GOM has every right to ban naniwa from their tournament if he acts unproffesional. To play in GSL or any other GOM tournament is not a right.
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On December 14 2011 04:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace.
May I refer you to every team sport? Baseball tems routinely play a week, a month, even two months after being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.
In the vast majority of sporting leagues, teams keep playing after they are eliminated.
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On December 14 2011 04:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace.
Uhhh Any sport with a regular season has this done. Ever heard of basketball, football, baseball, ie any game with a regular season and a playoffs afterwards. This isn't 100% comparable but it's the same thing. Have you never heard of a football team purposefully losing more games at the end of a season once they know they are out, for a better draft pick the next season?
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On December 14 2011 04:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace.
In every season in lots of leagues pointless games are played. And fans show up to show the support of their teams.
If you really have the heart and passion for this game, you go and fucking play the game. Not because it means anything, but because you enjoy playing starcraft 2, and fans enjoy watching you play it.
Í dont think Naniwa should be officially punished, but gom probably wont invite him again....
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Well, it's not uncommon that pros choose some silly allin builds when playing games that don't matter anymore. Just look at some of the games in the pool part of OSL in BW.
Was what Naniwa did over the top silly? Maybe yes but I don't think namecalling is waranted here...
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Of course i fall asleep and miss the last match lol, after reading everything I think if gom want's to sit him down and give him a talk not to do stuff like this anymore is ok. However banning him from gsl is fuckin ridiculous... The fact that some people are trying to put this on the same level has the coca thing is just retarted....
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On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this.
Team sport compared to individual.
Tournament compared to season league.
Totally different kinds of competitions.
Lets compare it to swimming:
Qualifying round top 4 out of 8 make it through to finals, rest are out.
There's never a bottom 4 race to see who's the best out of the worst.
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On December 14 2011 05:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. Team sport compared to individual. Tournament compared to season league. Totally different kinds of competitions. Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
A season league is just an extended tournament. English soccer, and most soccer leagues, are simply double-round robins. This was a single round-robin.
Team sport versus individual is not meaningful here.
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On December 14 2011 05:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. Team sport compared to individual. Tournament compared to season league. Totally different kinds of competitions. Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
How are team sports and individual sports different in terms of spirit of the game?
Also this group stage play was just like seasonal league.
your logic fails
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On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return.
He was paid $800 or whatever it was to show up and sign a consent form. So yes, he does owe it to the people who gave him money to just simply be there to put on a show.
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On December 14 2011 04:36 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:31 Trsjnica wrote:
I would like to see Naniwa barred from future GSL events, or at least one or two.
People paid good money to see these games. Part of that payment was to get to see an epid Naniwa vs Nestea game--even part of the hype thread for this day was about that match. Whether it would have change the outcome or not, people wanted to see the match and paid to see the match. I will maintain that if you expected players to try their hardest in a game that had absolutely no bearing on their tournament results, you failed as an observer. Naniwa did not fail as a player. If you're worried about the money you paid, you should be mad at GOM for showing you games that had no bearing on their tournament.
Most don't expect him to play his hardest. But most wanted to see him play. As I stated before, he could have just seen it as a ladder match, give one game. It could be bad and people would still call out on him not giving his hardest I'm sure, but just throwing away the game is way way worse then not giving his all.
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On December 14 2011 05:08 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. He was paid $800 or whatever it was to show up and sign a consent form. So yes, he does owe it to the people who gave him money to just simply be there to put on a show.
Wasn't he invited based on results to play in the blizzard cup?
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On December 14 2011 05:02 purpose wrote:
I just love how big people are making this. It sounds like some big political scandal. Canada pulled out of the koyto agreement, libya is in still at war, the global warming is fucking up the planet.....nah naniwa probe rushed in a game that ment nothing and some poor kids got upset....buhuuuu!!
We are in a starcraft 2 forum discussing a starcraft 2 issue, if you want to discuss about Canada pulling out of koyto go to the thread in GENERAL DISCUSSION.Why are you reading a thread in SC2 GENERAL and answering to it? Me and many others find this a serious issue for starcraft 2 that needs to stop now before many stupid "pros" do as they please when they please.If they want to do that they should create their own tournaments to play. We pay to see stuff, we watch ads to see stuff and when shit like this happens we express ourselves in a sc2 related topic in a sc2 related forum.
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On December 14 2011 05:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. Team sport compared to individual. Tournament compared to season league. Totally different kinds of competitions. Conclusion: Irrelevant comparison.
Not only that, but games that are "meaningless" in other sports still matter quite a bit for the players. If a player just goes out there and loses then their stats and averages will shoot way down, which actually could affect them quite a bit. Theoretically the same could be said about StarCraft 2, except that we really only keep track of wins and losses in SC2, and NaNi only threw a SINGLE game.
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Losing sucks, but if you cared anything about your fans you wouldn't throw a match like that. Just shows what kind of person naniwa is.
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On December 14 2011 04:54 xXxSepirothxXx wrote:
Naniwa was 100% right to do what he did. As IdrA and Ret said, it was a pointless game, nothing on the line, shouldn't have even been played.
IdrA and Ret are commenting on the format, but they didn't have to agree to it.
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On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this.
You could argue that resting your starters in a meaningless game is basically throwing it.So then the Colts resting their starters when they secured the first seed in the afc is purposely losing since I've never seen a team of second stringers beating a team of first string players.
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On December 14 2011 05:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:01 Trsjnica wrote:On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) NFL teams, and teams in other leagues, regularly play their hardest in late season games despite a lack of significance of the game. (Actually, it's often beneficial to lose due to draft implications.) If the Colts just decided to not attend a game, or to send out their C team every down and not tackle, do you think that would hurt the NFL, look terrible, and cause serious consequences? Absolutely. And so should this. Team sport compared to individual. Tournament compared to season league. Totally different kinds of competitions. Lets compare it to swimming: Qualifying round top 4 out of 8 make it through to finals, rest are out. There's never a bottom 4 race to see who's the best out of the worst.
That's because swimming is based off of lap times so there isn't any point in having the bottom 4 race...
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EPT
