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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
Naniwa's mistake here is that he's given away his 'probe rush' build in a game that was completely meaningless .
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On December 14 2011 04:39 Alvalanker wrote:
OMG some of you guys make a huge deal about nothing. The game was meaningless.
^^ this ... ist like he monipulated the outcome of the tourney or somtn like that .. not every one is that nive guy .. so get over it
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On December 13 2011 21:40 mrtomjones wrote:
It is disrespectful to viewers, GomTV, Nestea, QuanticGaming, and anyone else involved. They put time and money into him and he repaid it like that.
Quantic even hyped it on their twitter 5 minutes before the match.
Naniwa is just sad. Its not disrespectful, the game would of been terrible anyway. He cant help it if being eliminated and defeated nonstop hurts his game, it hurts basically anyones game.
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It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
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On December 14 2011 04:31 Trsjnica wrote:
I would like to see Naniwa barred from future GSL events, or at least one or two.
I think this is way too extreme. Especially since both parties are to blame. GOM created a situation where 2 players had no "real" incentive to win the games. Sure, there is the whole "for the fans" and "for glory" aspect, but if that were ever enough, we wouldn't be throwing cash prizes at every other competition.
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On December 14 2011 04:38 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:30 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:27 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:22 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:19 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote:On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:
[quote]
Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions. well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won The ultimate goal of competitive tournaments is winning, but the side-effects of people striving to win is what creates the entertainment. The way I see it, the concept is pretty common and accepted. For example, the goal of capitalism is the acquisition of wealth. Of course this leads people to educate themselves, work hard, and innovate. All of these side effects lead to more and more great things, from technological breakthroughs to the widespread dissemination of knowledge, medicine, etc. At the base of this all is the goal of acquiring wealth though. That's what I see a tournament as. The players have one goal -- to win. Now while they strive for that, we get quite a bit of entertainment. As soon as the goal is removed however, all of this goes out the window. You could take that and say, he should have therefore tried to win his last game. That is the goal of competitive tournaments as you just pointed out. He had no money to win. So is the goal winning in tournaments or just being paid? I hope Catz does get paid as much/more than him and that CompLexity recognises fame as just as important as results. Because Naniwa certainly didn't make any extra fans with his antics. And if your attitude inside the game and outside of it can get you more money from sponsors, then you could say that Naniwa by disappointing viewers/fans didn't do himself any favours, no matter how utilitarian you want to be about it. So you want to further the commercial aspect where people are paid not for their skill but their marketability? That's sad to me. Sure Naniwa is on the wrong side of the spectrum but we're already seing crappy players get alot of attention and money just for being marketable and it's kinda sad. Throwing the game is not about money as people have said many times. It's about the match not having any meaning as none of the players can get out of their group regardless of how great they play. People have forfeited placement deciding games at MLG many times where there's actually money involved yet people like you seem to care so very much about this one time. I didn't say I want to see people paid for marketability and not skills. I was pointing out that aside from keeping fans happy, sportsmanship, showmanship, decency to your opponents, being respectful and what people lampooned as other wispy notions of unimportance, it can actually carry a dollar handle. Seeing as the person replying to me was saying it is all about winning, with the inference being winning money, I was pointing out that bad behaviour can even have monetary consequences. I don't see how you missed that. The guy you quoted never mentioned money as a motivator, that's why i wrote what i wrote. I'm pretty sure Naniwa and many other players would live under these stressful conditions even if there was alot less money.
Well if winning in itself was the goal then my original point stands that he should have tried just to win that game. Seriously, read my posts properly.
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On December 14 2011 04:44 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:38 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:30 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:27 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:22 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:19 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote:On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions. well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won The ultimate goal of competitive tournaments is winning, but the side-effects of people striving to win is what creates the entertainment. The way I see it, the concept is pretty common and accepted. For example, the goal of capitalism is the acquisition of wealth. Of course this leads people to educate themselves, work hard, and innovate. All of these side effects lead to more and more great things, from technological breakthroughs to the widespread dissemination of knowledge, medicine, etc. At the base of this all is the goal of acquiring wealth though. That's what I see a tournament as. The players have one goal -- to win. Now while they strive for that, we get quite a bit of entertainment. As soon as the goal is removed however, all of this goes out the window. You could take that and say, he should have therefore tried to win his last game. That is the goal of competitive tournaments as you just pointed out. He had no money to win. So is the goal winning in tournaments or just being paid? I hope Catz does get paid as much/more than him and that CompLexity recognises fame as just as important as results. Because Naniwa certainly didn't make any extra fans with his antics. And if your attitude inside the game and outside of it can get you more money from sponsors, then you could say that Naniwa by disappointing viewers/fans didn't do himself any favours, no matter how utilitarian you want to be about it. So you want to further the commercial aspect where people are paid not for their skill but their marketability? That's sad to me. Sure Naniwa is on the wrong side of the spectrum but we're already seing crappy players get alot of attention and money just for being marketable and it's kinda sad. Throwing the game is not about money as people have said many times. It's about the match not having any meaning as none of the players can get out of their group regardless of how great they play. People have forfeited placement deciding games at MLG many times where there's actually money involved yet people like you seem to care so very much about this one time. I didn't say I want to see people paid for marketability and not skills. I was pointing out that aside from keeping fans happy, sportsmanship, showmanship, decency to your opponents, being respectful and what people lampooned as other wispy notions of unimportance, it can actually carry a dollar handle. Seeing as the person replying to me was saying it is all about winning, with the inference being winning money, I was pointing out that bad behaviour can even have monetary consequences. I don't see how you missed that. The guy you quoted never mentioned money as a motivator, that's why i wrote what i wrote. I'm pretty sure Naniwa and many other players would live under these stressful conditions even if there was alot less money. Well if winning in itself was the goal then my original point stands that he should have tried just to win that game. Seriously, read my posts properly.
Maybe it's you that need to learn something about competitive people. I've trained with quite a few and many of them either go for top placement or just don't care. Naniwa couldn't get through even if he won so he saw no reason to play. It's not rocket science, man.
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On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
User was temp banned for this post.
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Kinda lame but not something to get completely outraged over imo.
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this didn't really bother me... in fact I was rather amused. I guess I'm in the minority though.
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If he had just cannon rushed or 4 gated. I feel like the reaction would not be the same, yet the game would be of the same terrible quality kind of stupid if you ask me.
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The only stupid thing here is that they were required to even play that game in the first place. Imagine if players were forced to play out all 3 games in a best of 3 regardless of the results. That's basically what just happened.
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Naniwa was 100% right to do what he did. As IdrA and Ret said, it was a pointless game, nothing on the line, shouldn't have even been played.
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On December 14 2011 04:49 Zeri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders) It's not unprofessional behaviour and it's definatly not hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply can do this and you will not be punished for such things. Furthermore it is not hurting GOMs business, so I would not completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly. Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has parallels with "sports", it is worth watching it because there aren't immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
What hurts GOM's business is showing games that have no bearing on the results of their tournament. If they lost money because of that game it's their own damn fault.
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In F1 the last races aren't canceled because the champion and top 3 are determined. In football players dont just sit and let the other team goal their asses. Same for basket, badminton, tennis, etc. People that payed for the game have the right to see it whether it has any real implications in final results or not.
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Meaningless game was treated with no respect... I don't get the cause for uproar.
If there was a cash prize difference then I would expect them to play it out, but if there is none and lets say Nani was some other player who just cheesed out the match with a cannon rush or something. In that case I would feel WAY more cheated of a good game, but this way Nani just straight up admitted the game didn't matter and ended it right away instead of wasting my time. We went on to 4 more amazing games between the qualifying 3 players so the faster that happens the better imo.
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Anybody who is upset about this should be upset that there was a pointless no-stakes game being played in the first place, don't be mad at Naniwa. Neither of those players was going to be giving their all that game anyways, all Naniwa did was say "ok, this is a pointless game, I'm not going to pretend it's anything but a pointless game, no reason to drag it on just for the sake of appearances."
This game was even more pointless than a regular ladder game. Think about that for a minute and let it sink in.
What Naniwa did wasn't insulting or disrespectful either, personally I'd be more offended if they both put on a show and half-heartedly tried to beat each other. Naniwa just embraced the senselessness of it all and I actually applaud him for this.
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Would people have cared less if GOM paid more for second last instead of the same for 4th and 5th?
That way Nestea would have gotten paid more and Naniwa would have lost the money but throwing away the game?
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On December 14 2011 04:43 Big J wrote:
It's not professional behaviour and it's definatly hurting e-sports if people can do this as in other sports competitions you simply must not do this and you will be punished for such things.
Furthermore it is hurting GOMs business, so I would completly understand if they punished Nani for that rather harshly.
Everyone who is not a big esports fan and hears of this will just get the impression that this has nothing to do with "sports", it is not worth watching it because only immature kids are playing it. (not calling Nani a such, but that's what the impression has to be for outsiders)
Having pointless matches 30 minutes after the player is eliminated from the competition hurting their business. In no other sporting competition is this done. Players are allowed to lose in peace.
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EPT
