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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. | ||
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JustJonny
Canada294 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:15 bigbeau wrote: Let me rephrase: You cant take into account the opponents skill level when deciding if using a build is forfeiting. And you didn't quote everything I said, asshole. easy there, i quoted the relevant part. wasn't trying to be a jerk. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:15 bigbeau wrote: Let me rephrase: You cant take into account the opponents skill level when deciding if using a build is forfeiting. And you didn't quote everything I said, asshole. So care to come back to my last post to you where someone showed you that you were wrong and no one has worker riushed to GM? Or you just going to ignore that eh?  .You can be positive that a worker rush will never beat Nestea with the proviso that on the off chance he 6 pools it might work. But seeing as Naniwa didn't even micro, maybe not Edit Ok, so it works vs approximately people who are bronze to maybe silver. Whereas 4 gating can beat pros in the GSL. Ok good, we're clear then. | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote: Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." No they don't place higher in a league for good manners and passion they do however get more fans, sponsors and as a resault more money so it is in most teams best to show showmanship. And in SC2 more then any other sport it is important. This have only brought bad publicity for naniwa, his team and his sponsores. Also keep in mind that he actually was paid to play in this competition, not that he had to play his A-game for the last match, but he could atleast have played it like a normal ladder game. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote: well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won The ultimate goal of competitive tournaments is winning, but the side-effects of people striving to win is what creates the entertainment. The way I see it, the concept is pretty common and accepted. For example, the goal of capitalism is the acquisition of wealth. Of course this leads people to educate themselves, work hard, and innovate. All of these side effects lead to more and more great things, from technological breakthroughs to the widespread dissemination of knowledge, medicine, etc. At the base of this all is the goal of acquiring wealth though. That's what I see a tournament as. The players have one goal -- to win. Now while they strive for that, we get quite a bit of entertainment. As soon as the goal is removed however, all of this goes out the window. | ||
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iG.Forever
Korea (South)148 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:16 karpo wrote: What i hope this shows is that broadcasting tournament matches where players have nothing to gain after losing is a bad idea. Naniwa could surely have done something more "correct" like a 4-gate but there's been many times where people just throw games because they don't care. only if that was true, that this only shows about the errors of broadcasting tournaments where players have nothing to gain. but the fact is, this bm was done by a foreigner and not a korean. The msg is going to be so much more different in the eyes of the sponsors and teams in korea than foreign opinions. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I hope that tournaments avoid placing these sorts of placement matches right after important elimination matches. I cannot think of another sport where a player or team is expected to play 30 minutes after being eliminated from competition. This may be standard in Korea, but it is not in the United States. When a team or player loses they are expected, but not required, to shake hands and then are allowed to process their loss in peace. It leaves the player in an awkward position, where they are expected to play well, but may want to end the game as soon as possible and get off camera. This is especially true for players who are training in Korea, who are already living away from family, friends and may not have anyone to vent to. Nani messed up, but he is far from home and just lost a major event that he has been training for months. | ||
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
Even if he got crushed in those 3 games, it's easier to come back from that and play again. There's absolutely no reason to have meaningless games played. It didn't affect group standing or anything. GOM didn't use to force players to play meaningless matches for GSL... why the hell are they played for blizzard cup? | ||
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:18 JackDragon wrote: No they don't place higher in a league for good manners and passion they do however get more fans, sponsors and as a resault more money so it is in most teams best to show showmanship. And in SC2 more then any other sport it is important. This have only brought bad publicity for naniwa, his team and his sponsores. Also keep in mind that he actually was paid to play in this competition, not that he had to play his A-game for the last match, but he could atleast have played it like a normal ladder game. Wasn't he invited based on results? I agree that it's a stupid business decision to do something like this. What i dislike is the whiners who blow it out of proportion. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:19 hmunkey wrote: The ultimate goal of competitive tournaments is winning, but the side-effects of people striving to win is what creates the entertainment. The way I see it, the concept is pretty common and accepted. For example, the goal of capitalism is the acquisition of wealth. Of course this leads people to educate themselves, work hard, and innovate. All of these side effects lead to more and more great things, from technological breakthroughs to the widespread dissemination of knowledge, medicine, etc. At the base of this all is the goal of acquiring wealth though. That's what I see a tournament as. The players have one goal -- to win. Now while they strive for that, we get quite a bit of entertainment. As soon as the goal is removed however, all of this goes out the window. You could take that and say, he should have therefore tried to win his last game. That is the goal of competitive tournaments as you just pointed out. He had no money to win. So is the goal winning in tournaments or just being paid? I hope Catz does get paid as much/more than him and that CompLexity recognises fame as just as important as results. Because Naniwa certainly didn't make any extra fans with his antics. And if your attitude inside the game and outside of it can get you more money from sponsors, then you could say that Naniwa by disappointing viewers/fans didn't do himself any favours, no matter how utilitarian you want to be about it. | ||
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:22 karpo wrote: Wasn't he invited based on results? I agree that it's a stupid business decision to do something like this. What i dislike is the whiners who blow it out of proportion. What I hate is how every single person I see from Sweden is defending him. Seriously, if Moonglade acted like this, I wouldn't defend him. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
I hope Naniwa can look at White-Ra and change his mentality. I don't think it's right to do that, not considering your opponent at all. I wish he'd think about how he would have felt if I had gone 3-0 and confirmed #1 in my group, and he was 0-3, and I thought that since I'm 1st place nothing matters and just GG'd out of my game against him. -MC wow if someone did that to me... I'd be soooo mad o_O; | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
The players can actually suffer a carreer ending injury. The coaches may hurt their image if their team suffer a big loss. Yet these games are exciting and fun, players try their best for their teams fans and their own egos. Naniwa acted like it was something that would only affect him. But there were tons of people that stayed up to see the conclusion of what should be a grudge match between nani-nestea, there were his own fans that got disappointed, a very frustrated nestea (once again), and a whole community (korean) with inflamatory comments about him. Not to mention the blizzard people who organised this. MC summed it up pretty good. If you don't want to play just play out of respect for your opponent who does the same. Hell just make a mothership rush, do something funny that requires a lot of skill, do a 5 pronged warp prism harass but throwing the game away like this is like saying ''Fuck you, your opinion and view on esports don't matter to me'' to all community members. P.S And yet there are people like Tyler who stood up for him. It boggles my mind. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:22 Subversive wrote: You could take that and say, he should have therefore tried to win his last game. That is the goal of competitive tournaments as you just pointed out. He had no money to win. So is the goal winning in tournaments or just being paid? I hope Catz does get paid as much/more than him and that CompLexity recognises fame as just as important as results. Because Naniwa certainly didn't make any extra fans with his antics. And if your attitude inside the game and outside of it can get you more money from sponsors, then you could say that Naniwa by disappointing viewers/fans didn't do himself any favours, no matter how utilitarian you want to be about it. So you want to further the commercial aspect where people are paid not for their skill but their marketability? That's sad to me. Sure Naniwa is on the wrong side of the spectrum but we're already seing crappy players get alot of attention and money just for being marketable and it's kinda sad. Throwing the game is not about money as people have said many times. It's about the match not having any meaning as none of the players can get out of their group regardless of how great they play. People have forfeited placement deciding games at MLG many times where there's actually money involved yet people like you seem to care so very much about this one time. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:23 Subversive wrote: What I hate is how every single person I see from Sweden is defending him. Seriously, if Moonglade acted like this, I wouldn't defend him. I don't really like the guy, would have argued in the exact same way if he was from the US. I'm just so tired of people blowing every fucking thing out of proportion. Every single thing that can be turned into forum drama is. | ||
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cellblock
Sweden206 Posts
Funny. | ||
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Quesadilla
United States1814 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:24 zhurai wrote: -MC wow if someone did that to me... I'd be soooo mad o_O; And you'd have a right to be, but that's an entirely different situation since him and Nestea were both losers. In addition, if MC did that, it's his choice. Playing to win means bending the rules as far as they go. This is all a joke. SC2 is too dramatic. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
People act like what Naniwa did is unprecedented. It's not. It's common. Naniwa just took it to the logical, non-deceptive extreme. People are acting like Naniwa did this when someone else's neck was on the line... | ||
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MercilessMonkey
Canada150 Posts
On December 14 2011 04:22 Tor wrote: Naniwa made the assumption there was nothing at stake, yet clearly the negative reaction proves otherwise. If one want fans, one caters to fans. If you think your only net benefit in playing starcraft comes from a cash win in a tournament, you're either short sighted, ignorant or just inconsiderate of the fans of the game and the community in which you are a part of. Rather than throw the game, Naniwa should've taken the opportunity to throw out a ballsy or entertaining strategy to win the hearts of the community, or even better, played his best game possible in the hopes that people can look back and actually be impressed with or proud of him. I hope Naniwa can look at White-Ra and change his mentality. I don't think it's right to do that, not considering your opponent at all. I wish he'd think about how he would have felt if I had gone 3-0 and confirmed #1 in my group, and he was 0-3, and I thought that since I'm 1st place nothing matters and just GG'd out of my game against him. -MC These two things sum it up pretty well in my opinion. | ||
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