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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:
The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning
No. Don't even try to argue the contrary, the Zerg will have more drones when your Probes reach his base, and thefore he will easily win. The end.
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On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that.
To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions.
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On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions.
well then why do the games even need to be streamed
you can just look up online and see who won
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maybe its becuz he wants to watch the players play??? hmmm just maybe unlike the blizzard cup? whaaaaa
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On December 14 2011 04:07 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:
The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning No. Don't even try to argue the contrary, the Zerg will have more drones when your Probes reach his base, and thefore he will easily win. The end.
I've won with worker rushes against platinums and below. You cant take into account the opponents skill level when saying a build will work or not. Its still a chance of winning. Or else you could say although a 4-gate would work vs a code a zerg, a 4 gate would never work against nestea, so 4 gating nestea is throwing the game.
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People are really shitting their pants over this. I don't get the big deal really, if he's not in the mood to play a meaningless, competitive game then he shouldn't be forced to. I only wish he had done a half-hearted legitimate cheese instead, something more subtle, like a 4 gate or a proxy 2 gate so people wouldn't be as angry about it.
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On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions. well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won
LOL u can read GREAT!
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I don't agree with what Naniwa did was the best thing to do but that match didn't matter to anyone in the group and no money was involved, you won't see a good game no matter what. If they really are so bothered by what he did they should do what many sports do, award some money for winning every game in the tournament.
Koreans are blowing this out of proportion imo, you can't judge someone who is Swedish with Korean morals. Koreans need to relax a bit in general imo, the world doesn't end if someone doesn't type gg etc.
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On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions. well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won
Because i enjoy good play even though the player himself is boring and BM. Claiming that the game is about anything but the play is opinion. I don't favor any soccer team yet i watch a shitload of it, why? Because i enjoy great play regardless of who the player is.
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On December 14 2011 04:10 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:07 TheDwf wrote:On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:
The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning No. Don't even try to argue the contrary, the Zerg will have more drones when your Probes reach his base, and thefore he will easily win. The end. You cant take into account the opponents skill level when saying a build will work or not. .
yes you can
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On December 14 2011 04:01 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:59 ffadicted wrote:
To me it's about as meaningful as when people give up seeding games at MLG.
It means nothing, I get that people paid to watch games, but once again, another overreaction from the eSports community.
What would you have rathered, a proxy 2 gate that has a "chance" of winning? A 4 gate? That's what he would've done otherwise, and it would've been just as entertaining. The only difference here is that this game was broadcasted. Lots of players forfeited their place 7-8 matches etc in MLG and those times there was even money involved yet no one cared because it wasn't broadcasted on a main stage.
True it was broadcasted, but that doesn't address the overarching problem of having the game in the first place. Look, Naniwa should not have acted how he did and he should've acted like every other player and pretended to care. That said, this kind of situation shouldn't ever happen to begin with.
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On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:00 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:
[quote]
Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. I feel you haven't. You're trying to argue that he forfeited. He didn't. Your only argument could be that he didn't try very hard. You can't prove that. If someone is having an off-day, and theyre not providing the expected entertainment, is that not the same thing? What if they allin and fail? How is that different? What if they're tilting, do a shitty allin, and barely micro because theyre tilting, is that not the same thing as what Naniwa just did? Youre wrong. Your analogies are fail. There is no rule against worker rushing or doing bad allins. There is no rule against lack of micro. There is no rule against tilting. A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Ive seen players lose 15 marines to 2 banelings because they didn't split, so there's lack of micro, and Ive seen plenty of players in every sport including SC tilt. All of those things happen, so you're wrong. Sure you can say that it was unprofessional, but no more than saying thebestfou shouldnt be a pro because of his shitty banshee micro, or bitbybit with his shitty allins, or idra with his tilting. You can't punish people for those things. Really? Lets see the link to beating White Ra and TLO and lets see if they had 7 workers. The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning, which is all it needs to put it into the bad allin category and not the forfeit category.
On December 14 2011 03:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:
A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Epic fail, the strategy you talk about is 6 pool and drone rush. Something very different, which indeed may work, contrary to what Naniwa did. Get your facts straight instead of writing nonsense.
No, you were just flat out wrong. No one has gotten to GM or above likely silver with just worker rushing. As Gheed has shown us in his blogs, it doesn't work very well.
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Well i had no interest in watching Nestea vs Naniwa, but then i saw him drone rushing and smiled.
Of course he had no intention to win the game, but he entertained me.
A normal game between them when both dont care would have had a lot less value for me.
In my opinion people take this way to serious.
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Viewers expect players to put at least some amount of effort into providing decent games. Whether some players like it or not, E-sports depend on people spectators. Viewers bring sponsors, and sponsors allow tournaments to be held in the first place.
While this isn't exactly the same thing as Coca did, it's definitely extremely bad sportsmanship, and it's a stretch to claim that a probe rush could even beat a 6-pool. There's also always more than just winning on the line. There's things like reputation and entertainment (again viewers->sponsors->players. Boxer seems to understand this well from what I've heard and seen.) There's even honor if that sort of thing means anything to you. Based on some of the comments we've heard from the Koreans, Naniwa lost a lot more than just one game or one tournament today.
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On December 14 2011 04:06 iG.Forever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:02 Cocacooh wrote:On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
I think he cares more about actually winning, not winning the money. Think I remember him saying something like that wayback yeah cuz he sure showed that he cares more about winning than money. o0;;
He cares about winning tournaments obviously.
Naniwa was probably devastated after being knocked out. He probably didnt think of the consequences of throwing a game. Is it a flaw? yes probably, but can you blame someone for thinking differently?
I think it is more interesting if there are different personalities in the game. Having only people who act modest and never say what they really think is quite boring. At least i respect Naniwa for acting like he felt, instead of acting how he should according to other people.
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On December 14 2011 04:11 Gurgl wrote:
I don't agree with what Naniwa did was the best thing to do but that match didn't matter to anyone in the group and no money was involved, you won't see a good game no matter what. If they really are so bothered by what he did they should do what many sports do, award some money for winning every game in the tournament.
Koreans are blowing this out of proportion imo, you can't judge someone who is Swedish with Korean morals. Koreans need to relax a bit in general imo, the world doesn't end if someone doesn't type gg etc.
the thing is, esports is centered in korea as of right now. Thus when you get invited to play as top 10 best in korea, you should at least be attentive to what the morals are of where esports is centered at.
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On December 14 2011 04:12 JustJonny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:10 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 04:07 TheDwf wrote:On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:
The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning No. Don't even try to argue the contrary, the Zerg will have more drones when your Probes reach his base, and thefore he will easily win. The end. You cant take into account the opponents skill level when saying a build will work or not. . yes you can
Let me rephrase: You cant take into account the opponents skill level when deciding if using a build is forfeiting. And you didn't quote everything I said, asshole.
On December 14 2011 04:12 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 04:00 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:
[quote]
For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying.
That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. I feel you haven't. You're trying to argue that he forfeited. He didn't. Your only argument could be that he didn't try very hard. You can't prove that. If someone is having an off-day, and theyre not providing the expected entertainment, is that not the same thing? What if they allin and fail? How is that different? What if they're tilting, do a shitty allin, and barely micro because theyre tilting, is that not the same thing as what Naniwa just did? Youre wrong. Your analogies are fail. There is no rule against worker rushing or doing bad allins. There is no rule against lack of micro. There is no rule against tilting. A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Ive seen players lose 15 marines to 2 banelings because they didn't split, so there's lack of micro, and Ive seen plenty of players in every sport including SC tilt. All of those things happen, so you're wrong. Sure you can say that it was unprofessional, but no more than saying thebestfou shouldnt be a pro because of his shitty banshee micro, or bitbybit with his shitty allins, or idra with his tilting. You can't punish people for those things. Really? Lets see the link to beating White Ra and TLO and lets see if they had 7 workers. The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning, which is all it needs to put it into the bad allin category and not the forfeit category. Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:59 TheDwf wrote:On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:
A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Epic fail, the strategy you talk about is 6 pool and drone rush. Something very different, which indeed may work, contrary to what Naniwa did. Get your facts straight instead of writing nonsense. No, you were just flat out wrong. No one has gotten to GM or above likely silver with just worker rushing. As Gheed has shown us in his blogs, it doesn't work very well.
VERY WELL, but it does work on occasion. So its like 4 gating, because 4 gating pvz doesnt work very well.
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On December 14 2011 04:11 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote:On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions. well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won Because i enjoy good play even though the player himself is boring and BM. Claiming that the game is about anything but the play is opinion. I don't favor any soccer team yet i watch a shitload of it, why? Because i enjoy great play regardless of who the player is.
I haven't tried to convince anyone that my opinion about what constitutes importance in a game for me is for everyone. I was simply refuting someone else's opinion that only results matter - nothing else.
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What i hope this shows is that broadcasting tournament matches where players have nothing to gain after losing is a bad idea. Naniwa could surely have done something more "correct" like a 4-gate but there's been many times where people just throw games because they don't care.
On December 14 2011 04:16 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:11 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:09 travis wrote:On December 14 2011 04:07 karpo wrote:On December 14 2011 04:02 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality." You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that. To you there's more to the game than winning. I could care less about manners, personality, or showmanship. If the dullest most BM person on earth is the best player ever i would still enjoy his games. Don't try and convince others that your opinions are anything more than just that, opinions. well then why do the games even need to be streamed you can just look up online and see who won Because i enjoy good play even though the player himself is boring and BM. Claiming that the game is about anything but the play is opinion. I don't favor any soccer team yet i watch a shitload of it, why? Because i enjoy great play regardless of who the player is. I haven't tried to convince anyone that my opinion about what constitutes importance in a game for me is for everyone. I was simply refuting someone else's opinion that only results matter - nothing else.
In the end only results are a tangible definite goal, they hold no bias. Everything else depends on viewer opinion.
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