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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
Bullshit. Naniwa cares about winning 1000000000x more than money.
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NANI FIGHTING! love from sweden
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To me it's about as meaningful as when people give up seeding games at MLG.
It means nothing, I get that people paid to watch games, but once again, another overreaction from the eSports community.
What would you have rathered, a proxy 2 gate that has a "chance" of winning? A 4 gate? That's what he would've done otherwise, and it would've been just as entertaining.
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On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:
A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working.
Epic fail, the strategy you talk about is 6 pool and drone rush. Something very different, which indeed may work, contrary to what Naniwa did. Get your facts straight instead of writing nonsense.
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On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions.
You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. I feel you haven't. You're trying to argue that he forfeited. He didn't. Your only argument could be that he didn't try very hard. You can't prove that. If someone is having an off-day, and theyre not providing the expected entertainment, is that not the same thing? What if they allin and fail? How is that different? What if they're tilting, do a shitty allin, and barely micro because theyre tilting, is that not the same thing as what Naniwa just did? Youre wrong. Your analogies are fail. There is no rule against worker rushing or doing bad allins. There is no rule against lack of micro. There is no rule against tilting. A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Ive seen players lose 15 marines to 2 banelings because they didn't split, so there's lack of micro, and Ive seen plenty of players in every sport including SC tilt. All of those things happen, so you're wrong. Sure you can say that it was unprofessional, but no more than saying thebestfou shouldnt be a pro because of his shitty banshee micro, or bitbybit with his shitty allins, or idra with his tilting. You can't punish people for those things.
Really? Lets see the link to beating White Ra and TLO and lets see if they had 7 workers.
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I feel a bit lonely with this opinion, but personally, I thought the probe-rush was pretty funny.
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On December 14 2011 03:59 ffadicted wrote:
To me it's about as meaningful as when people give up seeding games at MLG.
It means nothing, I get that people paid to watch games, but once again, another overreaction from the eSports community.
What would you have rathered, a proxy 2 gate that has a "chance" of winning? A 4 gate? That's what he would've done otherwise, and it would've been just as entertaining.
The only difference here is that this game was broadcasted. Lots of players forfeited their place 7-8 matches etc in MLG and those times there was even money involved yet no one cared because it wasn't broadcasted on a main stage.
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On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted.
Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality."
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On December 14 2011 03:50 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:43 theBusiness wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 theBusiness wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_v_Austria_(1982) Thank you for proving my point  For 80 minutes of the game they just walked around with the ball basically, which is what you said never happens. Those teams were even "heated rivals." Nowhere in the article did it say that they "walked" around, further the game was actually quite furious the first 10 minutes. EDIT: It's also kinda funny you had to go back to 1982 to actually find something lol.
And to top it off this game is still remembered as the most shameful match in the history of german soccer (and our teams had quite a good deal of shady performances back in the days). So, yes, this example proves your point perfectly (unless he wants to nail you on the "it never ever happens!?" aspect...).
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In my humble opinion, Nani was in the wrong. When you are invited and selected to a prestigious tournament like this why wouldn't you play your best every match? Nothing to gain from it is NO EXCUSE. Why try on ladder or in practice? If there is no recognition or monetary gain in that? To get better? How can facing Nestea in front of thousands not be better in terms of practice, comfortability in the spotlight, fighting nerves, pride and such especially at this professional level and surrounding?
Such a joke player who just mocks everyone like at MLG and then comes to Korea, takes advantage of the opportunities and again shows his unprofessional character. The LEAST he can do is end it with his head held high, try and beat Nestea so he come out with some damn pride for himself, his new team and those who were rooting for him. Such a selfish and foolish person.
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On December 14 2011 04:00 Arcane86 wrote:
I feel a bit lonely with this opinion, but personally, I thought the probe-rush was pretty funny.
There was a poll in the LR topic about opinions on what happened, and more people there shared your opinion than there were people who said what naniwa did was wrong.
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On December 14 2011 04:01 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:53 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt). Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted. Really? Because last I checked you don't get promoted up a league for "passion and good manners." You don't climb the bracket because of "showmanship." And they certainly don't declare the winner of a tournament based on "personality."
You're now comparing the ladder and being streamed to thousands of people live. Also, my point was that there is more to the game than winning. So nothing you've said invalidates that.
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On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
I think he cares more about actually winning, not winning the money. Think I remember him saying something like that wayback
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On December 14 2011 04:00 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:
[quote]
You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. I feel you haven't. You're trying to argue that he forfeited. He didn't. Your only argument could be that he didn't try very hard. You can't prove that. If someone is having an off-day, and theyre not providing the expected entertainment, is that not the same thing? What if they allin and fail? How is that different? What if they're tilting, do a shitty allin, and barely micro because theyre tilting, is that not the same thing as what Naniwa just did? Youre wrong. Your analogies are fail. There is no rule against worker rushing or doing bad allins. There is no rule against lack of micro. There is no rule against tilting. A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Ive seen players lose 15 marines to 2 banelings because they didn't split, so there's lack of micro, and Ive seen plenty of players in every sport including SC tilt. All of those things happen, so you're wrong. Sure you can say that it was unprofessional, but no more than saying thebestfou shouldnt be a pro because of his shitty banshee micro, or bitbybit with his shitty allins, or idra with his tilting. You can't punish people for those things. Really? Lets see the link to beating White Ra and TLO and lets see if they had 7 workers.
The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning, which is all it needs to put it into the bad allin category and not the forfeit category.
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Sorry if this question has been brought up already, but is there any chance to see the + Show Spoiler + without getting tickets at GOMtv?
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On December 14 2011 04:05 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:00 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:56 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:
[quote]
Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. I feel you haven't. You're trying to argue that he forfeited. He didn't. Your only argument could be that he didn't try very hard. You can't prove that. If someone is having an off-day, and theyre not providing the expected entertainment, is that not the same thing? What if they allin and fail? How is that different? What if they're tilting, do a shitty allin, and barely micro because theyre tilting, is that not the same thing as what Naniwa just did? Youre wrong. Your analogies are fail. There is no rule against worker rushing or doing bad allins. There is no rule against lack of micro. There is no rule against tilting. A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Ive seen players lose 15 marines to 2 banelings because they didn't split, so there's lack of micro, and Ive seen plenty of players in every sport including SC tilt. All of those things happen, so you're wrong. Sure you can say that it was unprofessional, but no more than saying thebestfou shouldnt be a pro because of his shitty banshee micro, or bitbybit with his shitty allins, or idra with his tilting. You can't punish people for those things. Really? Lets see the link to beating White Ra and TLO and lets see if they had 7 workers. The point stands that worker rush has a chance of winning, which is all it needs to put it into the bad allin category and not the forfeit category.
it has no chance of winning at pro level. you can't honestly believe it does....
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A thought on people "paying to see the games."
When you pay for entry to an event with pool play, you are paying to, inevitably, see games that have no bearing on the outcome of the tournament. You should know going into it that there will be games that the players will be "playing" that they are not personally invested in. Sure some of them might not worker-rush, but let's be honest, we know a priori they will be terrible games, regardless of who is playing.
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On December 14 2011 04:02 Cocacooh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
I think he cares more about actually winning, not winning the money. Think I remember him saying something like that wayback
yeah cuz he sure showed that he cares more about winning than money. o0;;
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On December 14 2011 04:02 Cocacooh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
I think he cares more about actually winning, not winning the money. Think I remember him saying something like that wayback
This: he skipped a lot of tournaments to practice for specific ones. To be honest, I think this is a much more honest of playing the game than using some half-assed strategy and pretending to put effort. There is no way he was going to show his premiere PvZ strategies with the GSL Code S coming up soon (and honestly, neither will Nestea, but I'm not positive about that). I think it is unfair for Naniwa to lie to Nestea and pretend to give him a challenge and end up not really caring about the match. This is a much more honest and honorable way of saying "Hey, we will have our chance to play, but it isn't now."
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Oh no, a progamer dropped a meaningless game. What has the world come to?
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EPT
