|
Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
For sports individual events might make for better comparisons. This kind of thing happens, even at somewhere like the winter olympics, when your already out of the tournament who is really going to give it their all for something like a 7-8th place match. Certainly naniwa took it to an extreme but would we really have been satisfied with some kind of proxy gate/cannon rush?
I can't help feeling Bo1 is no way to determine the winner particularly particularly in a 'best of the best' featuring the winners of major tournaments.
Imagine a tennis competition that took the top players of the major tournaments and played them against each other in a best of 1 set as opposed to a best of 5 and when a players out they still have to play for every place below top 4even when there is nothing to win. Thinking about it tennis might provide a good structure, how about a best of 5 and if it gets to 2-2 you have to be 2 games ahead to win? That would provide far more epic and entertaining matches that would truly determine the best of the best.
|
On December 13 2011 21:39 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Should be treated the same way as slayersCoca...
Wow you really have no idea about anything do you? im sorry but saying that he should be treated like a cheater who did it for money and a code A (or S dont remeber) is NOT near as close as dropping a match that dosent matter at all.. naniwa vs nestea had no impact on anything so why should he even care to play it?
Edit:About the money, my point was that it was money involved with buyn when he got the freewin vs coca.. naniwa had nothing to gain or lose at all
|
On December 14 2011 03:47 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions.
You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. Hey man Nestea could've been worker rushing too, and then it would have been the MOST EPIC MICRO GAME EVER
True, that would have been fun. Except when Naniwa doesn't micro at all and then gg's. 
|
On December 14 2011 03:48 Lutto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 21:39 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Should be treated the same way as slayersCoca... Wow you really have no idea about anything do you? im sorry but saying that he should be treated like a cheater who did it for money and a code A (or S dont remeber) is NOT near as close as dropping a match that dosent matter at all.. naniwa vs nestea had no impact on anything so why should he even care to play it?
Coca didn't do it for money at all. He did something thoughtlessly for a friend.
|
and plus this is really bad for the foreign scene as well. only 2 foreigners were invited to play, and then this happens? korea is the central point of esports as it is now, and they are supported by a lot of korean fans. Now some those fans are going to have negative views about non korean sc2 players.
|
On December 14 2011 03:47 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:46 StarStruck wrote:
The thing is the players don't always compete up to the standards their fans expect for whatever reason.
When a team is so beaten-up and out sometimes they flat-out give up and have no momentum. You bought a ticket to the party and you boo your displeasure at the product. That's all you can do. And then a bunch of people tell you it's wrong to boo ^^ and everyone knows the game didn't matter and...
We're no better than other sporting fans.
|
They're both at fault (naniwa and blizzard cup). The tournament should have been made so these "meaningless" games don't happen. But since it DID happen, naniwa should have tried to play a good game. I mean I understand that he was feeling down after losing 0-3, but he should still show SOME respect (even with a 4gate) towards nestea (or any other pro-gamer for that matter). And the way the Korean pro-gamers reacted on twitter may seem harsh, but to their point of view, naniwa totally disrespected nestea. I mean even as I was watching, I was thinking, oh nestea and naniwa are both out for sure, so they probably won't play.. but when their game was announced I can't deny that I was a little excited. And then naniwa decided to just throw the game with 7 probes.. I was indeed disappointed. I always thought that naniwa was misunderstood but he keeps doing this kind of stuff!
|
On December 14 2011 03:43 theBusiness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:39 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 theBusiness wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_v_Austria_(1982) Thank you for proving my point For 80 minutes of the game they just walked around with the ball basically, which is what you said never happens. Those teams were even "heated rivals."
Nowhere in the article did it say that they "walked" around, further the game was actually quite furious the first 10 minutes.
EDIT: It's also kinda funny you had to go back to 1982 to actually find something lol.
|
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt).
|
On December 14 2011 03:47 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions.
You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won. Hey man Nestea could've been worker rushing too, and then it would have been the MOST EPIC MICRO GAME EVER
Even then it would have been sad, because nani wouldn't have microed at all lol.
|
|
|
At this point, I'm just so tired of hearing and reading about Naniwa. He's done more actual offensive BM than I care for. I actually hugely respect EGIdrA compared to Naniwa. Ever since Naniwa thumbs down'd NesTea at MLG I had it with him. Many things led up to that point for me starting in early SC2 when Naniwa was getting kicked out of tournaments etc for his BM. I think more and more people are finally seeing the true side of Naniwa.
|
On December 14 2011 03:48 Lutto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 21:39 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Should be treated the same way as slayersCoca... Wow you really have no idea about anything do you? im sorry but saying that he should be treated like a cheater who did it for money and a code A (or S dont remeber) is NOT near as close as dropping a match that dosent matter at all.. naniwa vs nestea had no impact on anything so why should he even care to play it?
You realise Coca didn't do anything for money and there was no code A spot. Cocas game had less impact than Naniwas. Before you insult others maybe make sure you have the actual story?
|
On December 14 2011 03:50 hmunkey wrote:
Anyway, I'm done debating here.
My point still stands though: the match was 100% pointless and should not have been included in the tournament format to begin with. Pointless matches lead to half-assed attempts to win all the time and as Tyler and Huk both said, SC2 pros do what Nani did all the time -- the only difference is they cover it up.
GOM told Nani to play a match in which he got nothing in return. This is unheard of in any professional sport. And even in the games that don't matter much, professional athletes and coaches oftentimes barely try. Nani simply forfeited and everyone is mad because he was "disrespectful," because as we all know SC2 is all about respect and not about winning (something he had no reason to even attempt).
Actually it is about more than just winning. If it was only winning, you could literally measure someone's fans by their win/loss statistics. Games are about passion, personality, good manners, showmanship. All sorts of things. Naniwa is getting flak for the way he's acted.
|
On December 14 2011 03:49 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:48 Lutto wrote:On December 13 2011 21:39 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Should be treated the same way as slayersCoca... Wow you really have no idea about anything do you? im sorry but saying that he should be treated like a cheater who did it for money and a code A (or S dont remeber) is NOT near as close as dropping a match that dosent matter at all.. naniwa vs nestea had no impact on anything so why should he even care to play it? Coca didn't do it for money at all. He did something thoughtlessly for a friend.
Sorry didnt mean it like that // my point was that it was money involved becuse buyn could/would get money when he got the freewin
|
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
|
On December 14 2011 03:43 theBusiness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:39 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:37 theBusiness wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_v_Austria_(1982) Thank you for proving my point For 80 minutes of the game they just walked around with the ball basically, which is what you said never happens. Those teams were even "heated rivals."
That was matchfixing tho, which is a little bit different :p
|
On December 14 2011 03:45 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:43 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:41 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:39 bigbeau wrote:On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all. For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. Your point is spurious. Joining and immediately leaving a game is not playing it. It's the same as forfeiting. If a team did that, it isn't the same as playing a proper game. Has a worker rush everworked? Yes. It wouldve beaten a 6 pool. Has joining and immediately leaving a game ever resulted in a win? No. So he did a strategy that couldve worked. I can't bring myself to argue that anyone would ever worker rush in case their opponent is 6-pooling. If that's what you're left with to argue, gratz, I feel I've won.
I feel you haven't. You're trying to argue that he forfeited. He didn't. Your only argument could be that he didn't try very hard. You can't prove that. If someone is having an off-day, and theyre not providing the expected entertainment, is that not the same thing? What if they allin and fail? How is that different? What if they're tilting, do a shitty allin, and barely micro because theyre tilting, is that not the same thing as what Naniwa just did?
Youre wrong. Your analogies are fail. There is no rule against worker rushing or doing bad allins. There is no rule against lack of micro. There is no rule against tilting. A guy posted on TL about getting to EU gm with worker rushing, beating whitera and TLO, both pros. So theres proof of worker rushing working. Ive seen players lose 15 marines to 2 banelings because they didn't split, so there's lack of micro, and Ive seen plenty of players in every sport including SC tilt. All of those things happen, so you're wrong. Sure you can say that it was unprofessional, but no more than saying thebestfou shouldnt be a pro because of his shitty banshee micro, or bitbybit with his shitty allins, or idra with his tilting. You can't punish people for those things.
|
On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
working as intended, human beings are selfish by nature
|
On December 14 2011 03:57 Switchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:55 bokeevboke wrote:
Naniwa is the best example of what sc2 scene resembles nowadays, all they care is money. Naniwa happens to have enough guts to show it.
You people really think sc2 is something big and players should be passionate about it? your wrong. Most of players just bump in to make some money while its possible. Most of players stream to make money, not for the fans. They use us.
sc2 never gonna be as epic as sc bw. Gameplay is shit in sc2, we watch boring games over and over again. Only thing we discuss is drama. I can't believe people are still in it.
working as intended, human beings are selfish by nature
The only humans being selfish are the ones who force naniwa to play a show match in the mental state he had.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
