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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. | ||
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Sneakyz
Sweden2361 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:29 Robonord wrote: He should be banned from the GSL. I didn't just pay $100 to see games like that. But if he did something like a 4gate you feel like your money was well invested? | ||
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[17]Purple
United Kingdom3489 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:31 wei2coolman wrote: I guess the question is, if Naniwa had chosen to forfeit, and not play the game, and concede to Nestea, would this of been as big of a deal? probably not because people would still cry over them wasting their money on NaNiwa not playing. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:33 ishboh wrote: in baseball, if the home team is leading at the end of the top of the 9th inning, they don't play the bottom of the 9th. in basketball if a team is down 20 points with 10 seconds on the clock, they will often times not even try to steal the ball/foul to get the ball back. naniwa forfeiting this game is completely inconsequential to everything in the tournament, why would ANYONE care? It has to deal with culture. Korean, and Asian culture in general, trying 100% all the time is a pretty big deal. To give up like Naniwa did, is a HUGE deal in korean culture. The reason this was blown out of proportion was because it was in Korea, and had a lot of Korean eyes on it. If this is was anywhere else this news wouldn't of been quite as big. | ||
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Sneakyz
Sweden2361 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:34 Elean wrote: It would have been more respectfull to Nestea & to the viewers. I find it highly likely he did ask if he could forfeit but wasn't allowed. | ||
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Soma.bokforlag
Sweden448 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:35 [17]Purple wrote: probably not because people would still cry over them wasting their money on NaNiwa not playing. Then, I don't get the giant shitstorm from a 7 probe rush... Idra did the same thing to haypro, and there was MONEY involved on this time. the 7th/8th place consolation match, and very little amount of attention was given in comparison. EDIT: idra didn't play haypro, and just gave the 7th place to haypro. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:33 hmunkey wrote: For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying. That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it. No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. | ||
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HTE
16 Posts
What fan enjoys or condones their favourite sports team playing half-assed? No fan likes to see that, either in athletic or esports. | ||
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Mijati
United Kingdom44 Posts
Huk gets criticised for taking a game too seriously a few months back against Nestea. Now Naniwa is apparently not taking it seriously enough. I really don't understand what the big deal is. The calls for him to be punished are crazy and if GOM actually do decide to ban him I'll stop watching them, simple enough and I hope others would do the same. | ||
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theBusiness
United States13 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote: You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany_v_Austria_(1982) | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote: No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. No, if the game started, and Naniwa just typed "gg" and left. THEN you'd have a point, he played it out with a 7probe rush, similar to fielding the 3rd string. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:25 Klondikebar wrote: What do you call it when a team throws out their B-list players and just lets them dick around? Was Naniwa supposed to bust out his A-game? Why would you expect a results driven player to try their best...fun funsies? Or did you want him to play Goldilocks where he didn't really try but tried hard enough to entertain you? LOL... 3 things: -These "meaningless" games are an excellent moment for players to rest, particularly those who're close to injury, this connects with the next point -These "meaningless" games are a PRICELESS oportunity for young, untested players who want their shot at the main team, and they're expected to play their fucking heart out. -The second point means these games are usually well played. Maybe not the best quality, but with a whole heart, and that can be seen, felt, and expected out of any pro team. Also, if the team decides to actually field their best players, they're expected to play their fucking heart out as well, and give everything to win. If they don't, that's just sad and I feel bad for them and the fans. It's part of being a pro. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:35 wei2coolman wrote: It has to deal with culture. Korean, and Asian culture in general, trying 100% all the time is a pretty big deal. To give up like Naniwa did, is a HUGE deal in korean culture. The reason this was blown out of proportion was because it was in Korea, and had a lot of Korean eyes on it. If this is was anywhere else this news wouldn't of been quite as big. Ok so it's a culture clash and there's really no point in attacking Naniwa then. People need to understand that not everyone in the world thinks the same way as they do. The west is a lot more individualistic -- there's a reason it birthed the ideas of democracy and capitalism. It sucks what happened, but like I've already said countless times, if you do not give someone any incentive to try you cannot reasonably expect them to try. If you do, you're being naive. | ||
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iG.Forever
Korea (South)148 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:35 Sneakyz wrote: I find it highly likely he did ask if he could forfeit but wasn't allowed. if he asked to forfeit and then did something like this, its even more disrespectful... | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 14 2011 02:59 windsupernova wrote: Lol @ people justifying Naniwa quitting because he was cheesed. Lol just no While I don´t this deserved this kind of crapstorm naniwa is a pro gamer. Time to show the pro in progamer, if he can´t do that then he shouldn´t be surprised when people call him out. While I don´t really like to talk #esports crap like this is why western esports will never be like Korean esports in BW, Koreans got a serious scene because they expected seriousness and all player and that is why they had esports on TV for 10 years.Again this shows how different we see the whole thing, for Koreans this is a sport where we excpect players to at least give us a show, foreigners see it as just a game where the other guy can just give up as if it was us playing ladder. Now lets talk about the real losers here, Gomtv and his sponsors who were made look like a joke, Quantic and its sponsors who again, were made look like a joke, the fans who were denied a game. And all because of what? Because naniwa felt like not playing. Again I am not really upset,I just hope this serves as a growing opportunity for naniwa and western esports in general. Hell I don´t even know why people compare this to real sports, when if in real sports a team refused to show up to the field would be bashed by its fans, hell teams are bashed when they perform badly. This apologist crap does not help anyone Look, I'm going to say this one last time. Pro athletes do all kinds of stupid shit like this all the time and no. In many cases they don't put give it their all for whatever reason and it happens ALL THE TIME. I've already gave examples, but I'll give another: - Washington Capitals: players don't buy into the head coaches system and show lack of effort on the ice. Star players get benched and scratched. Heated arguments between the players and coach take place (for example, Ovechkin calls Bruce a fat fuck for not putting him out there in the dying seconds of the game yet they manage to tie it and win the game in OT). Message still doesn't get across to players. They start plummeting in the standings. Bye bye coach. What did Bruce say after the fact? They did the right thing. I didn't have control of the locker room anymore. If players gave it their all, they would be trying their damned best to get right back into the play all the time especially after they screw up. Show some hustle! However, this isn't the case! There are many players who don't. Hell, your team is getting their ass-kicked and they are next to dead last in the standings. Morale is very low, they lack all confidence and they don't show up. Fans boo the product to death. Toronto Maple Leafs anyone? This happens to all teams. There are very few teams that play the full match. Teams are out there to win. Johan couldn't win. You want to talk about showmanship? Come on. Like I said they are out there to win first. The entertainment or showmanship is down further on the list. Johan was already out thus the match meant nothing to him. Johan doesn't owe anybody anything. Too bad. He's out there for himself. This is individual sport where the players only care about themselves. No one forces you to watch him games. The joke is on the fact that the game would mean little. This is why tournaments need to offer players more incentive to play out all their matches. | ||
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Kilby
Finland1069 Posts
A couple of the Korean public statements (not necessarily these particular ones and definitely not Nestea's) seemed quite harsh personal attacks towards Naniwa which should have probably been left unsaid. And those "I wanted to be on stage but couldn't so is he mocking me?" -comments seem a bit weird as they assume that a person who qualified would owe something to the people who didn't. That is not really how it works. Considering Naniwa's passion about winning and the "no bullshit" attitude towards tournaments I kind of understand him but I definitely understand the opposing side as well. Personally I don't think I would've had the balls to do that no matter how stupid I though the match was but apparently Naniwa doesn't have that problem. | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:31 hmunkey wrote: Yeah you're right, the bad players show up and play while the good players sit on the side all game. Big difference right? Yes it is a big difference. They actually get a game from it that way. sure maybe not your favorit top players but even the bad players on a team is actually good. And I imagine that the other teams also don't play with their best players wither, leveling the player field. For naniwa to probe rush is like they bring out their best players but they just lay down and sleep through the match, or just sit in a corner. | ||
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Soma.bokforlag
Sweden448 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:36 HTE wrote: I think everyone who is saying that this happens in other sports, hence is okay is missing the point. What fan enjoys or condones their favourite sports team playing half-assed? No fan likes to see that, either in athletic or esports. i think it was better to just give up than to play a half assed game, and im certain the game would have been half assed considering naniwa said so and neither player had any kind of motivation | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:37 wei2coolman wrote: No, if the game started, and Naniwa just typed "gg" and left. THEN you'd have a point, he played it out with a 7probe rush, similar to fielding the 3rd string. I see work rushing, a joke strategy, as analogous to entering, typing gg and leaving. You see it as a somehow similar to a team going out and playing a full game with not their best players, but staying the entire time. Which is actually more like 4-gating. | ||
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bigbeau
368 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:36 Subversive wrote: No, if the coach and the team walked out, then didn't try and defend at all and then left after 20 minutes, THAT'S what Nani did. And people would be pissed. Even if it's just for the fans and appearances, people have standards. That's it. Are you ill? You can't walk out on a basketball game. You can gg at any point in a SC2 game. Basketballs victory is based on points gained over time. SC2s victory is based on who forfeits first or whose buildings die first. You forfeit when you know that your buildings will die first. Your comparison sucks. | ||
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