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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 03:24 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:23 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. In other sports the people who matter simply don't play. Actually, in other sports there are pretty much no pointless games since players are paid regardless of the importance of the match. But despite that, everyone's ignoring the key issue -- athletes have a tangible incentive to perform well even in games that don't help them advance because they get paid for it. Naniwa/Nestea had no incentive other than abstract concepts like "pride" and "honor." Can you really find me an example from traditional sports where the competitors are expected to actually try hard without getting anything in return? Because I can't. How about you give us an example of these "other sports" where the teams or players didn't bother to play.
American football, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc.
I could keep going on but I don't see why I even have to. It's pretty widely known that this is standard behavior. The stars sit out all game without even being prepared to play and the backup players spend the entire game on the field. It works because the coach doesn't care about the outcome and there's no advantage gained from trying hard and sending your good players out.
This is extremely common...
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On December 14 2011 03:22 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:20 travis wrote:
I love how all 3 of us start our reply to him with "what?" Lol yeah. It's mind-boggling what he said. All those games you see on tv where the crowd silently leaves the stadium because their team didn't feel in the mood to play that day. It's like something out of a bizarre sci-fi plot.
Well I can say living in Pittsburgh and having the Pirates as your MLB team a bunch of people over the past 5 or so years would organize "walkouts" to show displeasure at the cheap ass ownership group we have here. In retrospect its the dumbest idea because you know you are buying a ticket that provides the owners with money...And you would never see it on national tv because no one gives a damn about the pirates 
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On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition.
You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc.
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He should be banned from the GSL. I didn't just pay $100 to see games like that.
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Eh, I can understand what he did, would have been nice to see an epic rematch but in that mental condition probably impossible. I suppose the best result would have been a "compromise" like a quick 4gate. Just an unfortunate situation all around.
Although it does make me smile to remember that in the press conference earlier it was Naniwa who was telling Nestea to relax more : P
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On December 14 2011 03:21 TheWonderbread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:17 Subversive wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 TheWonderbread wrote:
Complain about professionalism then flame people on twitter, yeah good call.
Honestly what Naniwa did was disrespectful, but not unprofessional. The burden is on GOM though, not Naniwa, because he didn't break any fucking rules or do anything wrong. He just gave up, big deal.
If GOM wants to make sure this kind of behavior doesn't happen again they should impose something prohibiting players from doing this, or format their group stages such that they don't end up in scenarios where a player could honestly give two shits about what happens. Or ban Naniwa because despite the fact that people can do it, only he does. That's fine with me. It's GOM's tournament and they can do whatever they want, I'm just saying wholly speaking that he didn't break any rules. I don't see how the entire korean esports scene has the audacity to tell him that he can't be a progamer anymore.
They're big on respect over there.
Well aware of that or it would literally be a non-issue. They should be aware of the cultural differences though and know that just because there's an unspoken Korean progamer code of conduct, every foreign player isn't necessarily going to know what it is or choose to abide by it.
I don't see how what Choya said wasn't disrespectful regardless of the situation though and no one is getting pissed and starting threads about that.
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United States23455 Posts
Coca and Naniwa should have a bare knuckled brawl inside the GOM Studio to see who gets the Code S spot. Loser banned for life.
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On December 14 2011 03:27 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:23 hmunkey wrote:
Can you really find me an example from traditional sports where the competitors are expected to actually try hard without getting anything in return? Because I can't. Every single spectator sport ever...? Not to mention what naniwa did went far beyond "not trying hard". This is ridiculous, im done arguing it.
You mean those spectator sports where they get paid absurd amounts to try hard? Generally getting paid qualifies as getting something in return.
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On December 14 2011 03:27 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:23 hmunkey wrote:
Can you really find me an example from traditional sports where the competitors are expected to actually try hard without getting anything in return? Because I can't. Every single spectator sport ever...? Not to mention what naniwa did went far beyond "not trying hard". This is ridiculous, im done arguing it.
So you wanted him to play Goldilocks. When you abandon winning, there's no difference between "trying a little" and "worker rushing." There's ONLY losing. Naniwa (and I would imagine most players) understand that. Starcraft is a game of binary results. You win, or you lose. There's no such thing has "half losing" and you don't get trophies for losing but "trying hard."
Naniwa could no longer win. In his mind (and the mind of every other person who understands winning and losing) playing out the game and completely throwing it were exactly the same thing.
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On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc.
Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all.
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On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc.
Yeah you're right, the bad players show up and play while the good players sit on the side all game. Big difference right?
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I guess the question is, if Naniwa had chosen to forfeit, and not play the game, and concede to Nestea, would this of been as big of a deal?
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On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc.
It has happened, i can remember games like where both sides just settled for 1 point (football) and just passed each other the ball for 30min.
Not caring/trying does happen a lot in sports, its just not always very obvious.
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On December 14 2011 03:29 Robonord wrote:
He should be banned from the GSL. I didn't just pay $100 to see games like that.
Did you watch his other three games? Those were amazing...you shouldn't even have gotten the last game because it was meaningless. Unless you are telling me you paid $100 to watch exhibition matches?
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Like telling a car mechanic to fix the car, but he is also aware that once he's done with the car, the car will be scrapped.
I am sure he will put a lot pride in the work.
Or a painter knowing his customer will just burn it.
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in baseball, if the home team is leading at the end of the top of the 9th inning, they don't play the bottom of the 9th.
in basketball if a team is down 20 points with 10 seconds on the clock, they will often times not even try to steal the ball/foul to get the ball back.
naniwa forfeiting this game is completely inconsequential to everything in the tournament, why would ANYONE care?
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On December 14 2011 03:31 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:29 Integra wrote:On December 14 2011 03:16 Klondikebar wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions. You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition. You never hear about this in traditional sports because it never happens I've never seen or even heard of a professional game televised or a stadium with a crowd where the players shows up and then just walks around with the ball instead of running etc. Yeah its ridiculous. And people saying that it's comparable to b-teamers playing are flat-out wrong. The B-teamers play, that's the point. They try really hard. No one is angry that Naniway didn't try his best. We're angry he didn't try at all.
For the last time, you are comparing team sports to an individual competition like SC2. Look at the coach, not the individual players. When a coach fields a team of only 3rd string players, he is not trying to win in the slightest. Normally it would be a stupid strategy to send out only your bad players, but if the results don't matter there's no point in trying.
That's what Nani did. He sent his probes to go fight despite it being a stupid strategy because it didn't matter. That's it.
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On December 14 2011 03:28 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 03:24 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 03:23 hmunkey wrote:On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote:
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions. In other sports the people who matter simply don't play. Actually, in other sports there are pretty much no pointless games since players are paid regardless of the importance of the match. But despite that, everyone's ignoring the key issue -- athletes have a tangible incentive to perform well even in games that don't help them advance because they get paid for it. Naniwa/Nestea had no incentive other than abstract concepts like "pride" and "honor." Can you really find me an example from traditional sports where the competitors are expected to actually try hard without getting anything in return? Because I can't. How about you give us an example of these "other sports" where the teams or players didn't bother to play. American football, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc. I could keep going on but I don't see why I even have to. It's pretty widely known that this is standard behavior. The stars sit out all game without even being prepared to play and the backup players spend the entire game on the field. It works because the coach doesn't care about the outcome and there's no advantage gained from trying hard and sending your good players out. This is extremely common...
Except that as has been pointed out to you quite a few times forfeiting a game and fielding a B-team are not analogous. Better luck next time.
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On December 14 2011 03:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess the question is, if Naniwa had chosen to forfeit, and not play the game, and concede to Nestea, would this of been as big of a deal?
It would have been more respectfull to Nestea & to the viewers.
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On December 14 2011 03:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess the question is, if Naniwa had chosen to forfeit, and not play the game, and concede to Nestea, would this of been as big of a deal?
People might have been mildly annoyed he didn't play, but he'd potentially also have sympathy. He could even be seen as vulnerable. What he did was seen instead as disrespectful. That's what gets peoples ire up.
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