Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed.
On December 14 2011 02:17 Poisonblack wrote: I feel sorry for Quantic... lol
I really do too. I would love to have their take on this incident.
In my opinion Naniwa disrespected sports in general. You never see a professional soccer-team ignore the ball during a soccer match just because they cannot pass the group stage.
It's a sportmans duty to play a game if there are resources being spent toward casting the game.
Seriously, why is it after an incident, we have all these 1-5 post nubs posting on TL?
Look, NFL team towards end of the seasons generally send out their bench players for majority of the games, if they don't stand to win anything, (move up in playoff spot, or what not).
I don't see how this is any more different than Naniwa probe rushing...
You count very much as a newbie too.
Then perhaps you should get glasses to help you see better. If Naniwa had played but not used his best strategies, say, something he had prepared for Nestea. That would be comparable to fielding a B-team. The B-teamers will still try their best to win, as this is their chance to shine. In similar way Naniwa could've played a normal game without anything fancy. If the team had hired some bums from the street to wear their jerseys to play the match that would be comparable to what Naniwa did (to a greater extent at least).
If the NFL could, they would hire bums on the street. The thing is, they have a minimum salary and a pretty stringent process to field players, so they're stuck putting their worst players out.
It's basically the same thing -- they put out the guys who they don't consider to be good for anything but practice.
Oh, and there's the whole thing about how those games, as insignificant as they are, still have a slight effect on the team's standing. The Nani/Nestea game literally had no effect on anything and it's idiotic that it even had to be played.
You know very well that they wouldn't. Those games are good practise for the benchwarmers and that is why they are often seen playing such games.
That is a false analogy. Naniwa played not to win at all. The B-teamers will still play to win and despite not being that good, they are quite competent.
It did have effect on Nestea as he wanted revenge and Naniwa even went as far as to taunt him in the interviews.
Why are these points so hard to understand?
I'm not comparing Naniwa to the 3rd string NFL players, I'm comparing him to the coach -- you know, the guy in charge of the team's strategy and planning. In these situations, the coach is not playing to win. He's playing because he has to and he's more worried about improving for the next season.
And it had an effect on Nestea's feelings? Really? Are we basing judgments on a player on how their actions affected other peoples' emotions now? Then what do we say to all the players who cheese, all-in, and otherwise bm? Either be consistent or stop being critical for the wrong reasons.
im saying the tourny was set up for the fans and to bring more attention to sc2. Why else would they have each player play all the other players in the group? for the fans obviously. The best players were chosen so fans could see them going at it against each other. And by basically giving up the last game, he dissed the layout of the tourny and the entire setup.
Surely to get into the cup he would have had to been an amazing player (which he is).
And seeing as its his game he has a choice as to what strategy he wants to do. The fact is that if he had used any other type of cheese people would not be giving him this criticism...
On December 14 2011 03:05 Lorch wrote: Please what? Why the fuck does this cause an uproar? The game didn't matter whatsoever and he threw it. I don't see the problem here. All nestea had to do was a move his drones, free win for him I don't see why that would upset anyone. Did anyone bitch about bitbybit doing that shit all the time in games that actually mattered? Neither nestea nor naniwa got anything from that game the only bad thing I could see is that the fans didn't get to see an epic pvz, but got damn it both are players first and that game didn't matter at all, hell I would have probably done the same or done some stupid cheese.
Well, then he should inform his sponsorteam before they begin hyping it up. Making him, us and themselves looking like jackasses.
On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote: [quote] a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time.
You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple.
I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it.
Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game?
Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him.
Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin.
Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol.
Not exaclty the same. He didn't cheese. He elaborately ragequitted the tournament. You seem to have lost the point.
How does one quit a tournament you are already out of?
point. game. match.
You go to NesTea and GOM and say, "I want to forfeit". It's pretty simple actually, it's called TALKING!
QFT. If Nani didn't want to play because he was upset he should have said something. Letting people think a legitimate game was going to happen then just (basically) leave the game isn't right.
Who on earth thought that was a legitimate game?! There was no difference between winning and losing that match.
If you thought that game was legitimate and carried any weight at all then you failed as an observer. Naniwa did not fail as a player.
On December 14 2011 03:07 iG.Forever wrote: im saying the tourny was set up for the fans and to bring more attention to sc2. Why else would they have each player play all the other players in the group? for the fans obviously. The best players were chosen so fans could see them going at it against each other. And by basically giving up the last game, he dissed the layout of the tourny and the entire setup.
Ok but this wasn't a showmatch, it was a tournament. If Gom wants to host a series of showmatches let them, but at least that way they can be upfront about the fact that players don't really care that much about the games.
On December 14 2011 03:07 barcacl2006 wrote: Surely to get into the cup he would have had to been an amazing player (which he is).
And seeing as its his game he has a choice as to what strategy he wants to do. The fact is that if he had used any other type of cheese people would not be giving him this criticism...
It's not a cheese. Cheeses have a chance of winning and can be fun to watch. This had neither a chance to win, excepting Nestea had a seizure in his booth, and it wasn't fun. As this thread with 10 thousand comments shows.
On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote: [quote]
Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game?
Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him.
Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin.
Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol.
Not exaclty the same. He didn't cheese. He elaborately ragequitted the tournament. You seem to have lost the point.
How does one quit a tournament you are already out of?
point. game. match.
You go to NesTea and GOM and say, "I want to forfeit". It's pretty simple actually, it's called TALKING!
QFT. If Nani didn't want to play because he was upset he should have said something. Letting people think a legitimate game was going to happen then just (basically) leave the game isn't right.
Who on earth thought that was a legitimate game?! There was no difference between winning and losing that match.
If you thought that game was legitimate and carried any weight at all then you failed as an observer. Naniwa did not fail as a player.
Tyler said it best. This exact thing happens all the time in every game that doesn't matter. The only difference was Nani made it obvious and now everyone's angry at him.
On December 14 2011 02:54 HolyArrow wrote: I agree that professionalism is definitely a virtue and that Naniwa should have at least tried to put on a better show (although admittedly, the resulting controversy from this is ironically a good deal more entertaining than just watching a 4gate would have been), but I also can easily see where people like Naniwa and IdrA (and perhaps a few other pros as well) are coming from when they say that it's difficult to have the mentality to play at your best in meaningless games. As in many cases where something goes wrong, I don't think the fault lies solely with Naniwa, and we must also acknowledge that a format that has players play "meaningless" games is a flawed one from the point of view of quite a few people. Would it be so hard for people to put their heads together and come up with some awesome tournament format that gets rid of this issue?
The thing is, the game was only meaningless to him. Getting to show you can beat one of the best in the world in a rematch is important to most people (players included). Guy has no respect or class.
I agree that from the standpoint of one's prestige/respect as a player, a game is never truly "meaningless", and that many people share this viewpoint, but it's important to empathize with people who see things more pragmatically (i.e in terms of tournament winnings and such). I still hold that there's no reason why GOM or any other tournament for that matter can't come up with formats that simply prevent players from feeling like a match is meaningless. Then, players have no excuse to not always give it their all (when there's real hope of a comeback of sorts rather than seeing that they're 0-3 in this group format style and knowing that absolutely nothing will save them). Tournaments will also likely suffer less embarrassing spectacles like this, and viewers will be happier with the better games that are produced overall.
Everybody wins.
Agreed, he should have won something more, the format wasn't thought out. Having said that, players do showmatches all the time with little financially on the line (not to mention he's already being paid to play these matches). At the least he could have gone a quirky strategy, made it fun for the fans. This is the difference between someone like Boxer and someone like Naniwa. And it is a big difference.
Well, that's why almost everyone loves BoxeR (and the people who don't seem to just be disliking him due to how popular he is, which is almost flattering in and of itself) I don't disagree that BoxeR's attitude is what makes him incredibly inspirational, while Naniwa's attitude is, at worst, extremely immature and unprofessional, and, at best, misunderstood due to his tactlessness.
It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions.
I hope this shit gets adressed at sotg so people stop bitching and just agree with what everyone will say (aka what idra/tyler already posted on twitter), this thread shouldn't even have more than 2 pages.
I like what MC had to say about it. Naniwa acted like a total, raging, inconsiderate douchebag. He really needs to be more considerate of the fans and other players in the future.
That said, does he need to be punished? No, not really. Let's be reasonable: he didn't break any laws or rules or anything. It just needs to be recognized that Naniwa has a propensity for douchebaggery (say that five times fast) and that maybe tournaments don't want to invite him back until he grows up a little bit.
On December 14 2011 03:12 Lorch wrote: I hope this shit gets adressed at sotg so people stop bitching and just agree with what everyone will say (aka what idra/tyler already posted on twitter), this thread shouldn't even have more than 2 pages.
So I'm supposed to agree with Idra on professional conduct? They're great SC2 players, but as someone who tries to be a professional in my own line of work I have as much of an opinion on this as they do, and a ton of other people in this thread can make the same claim. What they say doesn't end the argument.
On December 14 2011 03:11 travis wrote: It's a spectator sport. You never see teams or players go out and then stand there doing nothing in other sports because "the game doesn't matter". If they did then the crowd would boo, and there would be repercussions.
Teams do that all the time. The crowd doesn't boo, they just leave the stadium or don't even buy tickets in the first place. The whole reason teams aren't trying is because there are no repercussions.
You just don't hear about it because traditional sports audiences are mature enough to understand the point of competition.
Complain about professionalism then flame people on twitter, yeah good call.
Honestly what Naniwa did was disrespectful, but not unprofessional. The burden is on GOM though, not Naniwa, because he didn't break any fucking rules or do anything wrong. He just gave up, big deal.
If GOM wants to make sure this kind of behavior doesn't happen again they should impose something prohibiting players from doing this, or format their group stages such that they don't end up in scenarios where a player could honestly give two shits about what happens.
I like how Naniwa does this and alternately we have a thread in the BW section of a player apologising to the foreign fans for putting up a bad game in a series of foreigners vs korea. Such contrast in attitudes.
On December 14 2011 03:12 Lorch wrote: I hope this shit gets adressed at sotg so people stop bitching and just agree with what everyone will say (aka what idra/tyler already posted on twitter), this thread shouldn't even have more than 2 pages.
So I'm supposed to agree with Idra on professional conduct? They're great SC2 players, but as someone who tries to be a professional in my own line of work I have as much of an opinion on this as they do, and a ton of other people in this thread can make the same claim. What they say doesn't end the argument.
Most people just agree with what popular people say, that's atleast what I'm hoping for as this is just total bs. If he would have just build gates in the middle of the map or cannon rushed or some other stupid shit no one would have bitches. I'm facepalming sooo hard right now. The game was totally pointless and there was no reason for naniwa to try, especially after loosing the other 3 games soooo closely, I'm sure he was just fucking frustrated and didn't feel like trying hard to get a pointless win. Gom should have just not let them play that totally useless game.
On December 14 2011 03:16 TheWonderbread wrote: Complain about professionalism then flame people on twitter, yeah good call.
Honestly what Naniwa did was disrespectful, but not unprofessional. The burden is on GOM though, not Naniwa, because he didn't break any fucking rules or do anything wrong. He just gave up, big deal.
If GOM wants to make sure this kind of behavior doesn't happen again they should impose something prohibiting players from doing this, or format their group stages such that they don't end up in scenarios where a player could honestly give two shits about what happens.
Or ban Naniwa because despite the fact that people can do it, only he does.
EPT
I don't disagree that BoxeR's attitude is what makes him incredibly inspirational, while Naniwa's attitude is, at worst, extremely immature and unprofessional, and, at best, misunderstood due to his tactlessness.
