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On September 20 2011 05:59 TheOne85 wrote:
Lets support the professional players, not the people who breach a contract the instant they sign one. French law or not, this is ridiculous...
Are you suggesting we shun a player for following the law which applies to him because it's different from what we are used to?
On September 20 2011 06:26 TheOne85 wrote:
1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form.
No it's not. If what people are saying about French law is true, in that after signing it there's a grace period where you can pull out, then it changes it completely. You can't assume that your conception of a contract under the laws you're used to trumps any others, and thus they are automatically in the wrong.
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United States2095 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:26 TheOne85 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:09 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
TheOne, did you know about French law with contracts? I surely didn't before this started up. That's a huge thing not to know much about. Perhaps maybe you don't know everything about this situation? The point isn't that we don't have any information, its that after one day and both sides not getting along initially there's no reason to come here and claim one team or the other is "ridiculous".
What if by tomorrow it turns out that there was a bunch of information we didn't know? I for one won't be "editing my post" to remove anything bad I said about one team or the other. As you've already edited your post, perhaps that won't bother you. I've edited my post to say what I had to say about your post that I had read after the fact, rather than adding onto the already large amount of pages here. Sure there could be some more information coming out, but unfortunately in this situation the amount of information already accessible is enough. 1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form. I don't believe I've said either team was ridiculous. This whole situation is, and its all at fault of someone who reneged on a contract. I'd really like to see the true reasoning behind it, without the fluff.
So the part where you say
"1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form."
Is just wrong. I'm not saying Stephano is in the right here, just you, someone who hasn't seen the contract, doesn't know anything about how either team works behind the scenes; are complaining about Stephano is painful. This sort of attitude that you know everything about what is happening and you dismiss Stephano as someone who should not be trusted with a contract is ridiculous.
Have you ever talked to Stephano or anyone involved at all? I'm sure plenty of people in this world have broken a contract. Not stayed for an entire lease period? Not wanted to stay at a gym despite having a contract? Obviously this isn't the same type of contract, but there are negatives for properly signed contracts. For the lease period, maybe you have to pay an extra month, for the gym as well. For this maybe hes willing to have legal action taken against him to get out of it. The point is, you don't know. You REALLY don't.
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Laws are great. But sometimes abusing the law as an excuse because two countries have "differences" isn't exactly lawful. Imagine a world without laws so that people are accountable for their own actions. This is simply what a lot of people are saying. Stephano should be accountable for his own decisions and he created this shit storm. He should be shunned unless he proves that staying with Mill is better than staying with CoL, or at least try and reveal the truth rather than hide behind whatever bullshit they've come up with thus far. And it is bullshit, teams don't announce players in the news just to be embarrassed that next day they announce it's been retracted...but not by them.
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On September 20 2011 06:37 Shemsu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:59 TheOne85 wrote:
Lets support the professional players, not the people who breach a contract the instant they sign one. French law or not, this is ridiculous... Are you suggesting we shun a player for following the law which applies to him because it's different from what we are used to? Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:26 TheOne85 wrote:
1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form. No it's not. If what people are saying about French law is true, in that after signing it there's a grace period where you can pull out, then it changes it completely. You can't assume that your conception of a contract under the laws you're used to trumps any others, and thus they are automatically in the wrong.
This ^
User was warned for this post
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Edit: Okay you know what, I give up on following "teams."
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On September 20 2011 05:33 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out here because these sorts of situations are really stressful for everyone involved. As spectators in this event, we don't really know everything that is going on behind the scenes. We can grab our pitchforks, light em on fire and go for the throat or we can realize we don't know who to use our pitchforks on and keep em locked up.
I don't like saying one player is stupid or this decision is wrong or -1 fan stephano because put simply we don't know the whole story. Even if we did know the whole story, its still rude to have hundreds of people telling you that your stupid. I've been in this situation before, and its no fun! I just hope people realize that posting on this forum DOES get read by both Stephano and both companies, Mil and Col and any slander directed at any of these parties will negatively affect them. Without all the information and even with it, lets promote e-sports not bash on one of our own. Company owners and pro-players are people too...
LONG TEXT INC, there is 2 TL;DRs, one in mid and one at bottom, if you don't feel like reading all this shit.
I strongly agree to many of the points you make. A lot of times when internet mobs get created at a certain target, that might not be actually aimed right, because of lack of information.
The only thing I must disagree with is second last sentence. Where I think what you basically are saying is that we shouldn't speak bad of e-sport companies disregarding of what they are doing. That because we should promote e-sports and thus not bash e-sport companies that act wrong, because it might hurt them. Hurting them (my interpretation) as in possibly making they get less good sponsor deals, which can of course lead to less sponsored players.
Meanwhile this looks good in theory, for me that would be only a band aid fix. In the short run (by reducing e-sport company X's chance of getting sponsors by giving them bad PR when they did something bad, which is what I think you are against) we will obviously be reducing both the speed of e-sports entering mainstream, and the money flow into e-sports. That is obviously something bad. Though, in the long run, if companies doesn't get punished as hard when acting unproffesional, chances are the bad companies wont be weeded out, and that the unproffesionalism of some teams might undermine the credibility of the entire e-sports scene.
(TL;DR of above writings, I disagree with being all fluffy against e-sports companies undepending of what they are doing, which I kind of interpreted in Sheth's text. I might have interpreted wrong, or just interpreted far to deeply, if so I still think my point is valid, even if it's no longer a disagreement with what Sheth wrote.)
Also, as of this, I'd like to point out that I'm not actually pointing this "we shouldn't let unproffesional e-sport companies reign free" against any specific company in this drama incident. That as I throughly agree with Sheth's point that the view from a spectator point might be very invalid, at least in the early stages of the drama when all information might not be out yet.
For all I know this might be just another incident related to cultural/law diffrencies in different countries. A comment (IE none related to, as far as I know, complexity, just another of us fans) on Complexity's homepage says:
"Unfortunately, Stephano is well within his rights under French contract law here (French contract law always applies to contracts between French citizens and foreign companies, and a person can get out of any contract with no penalties within 30 days of signing it)."
So possibly, Stephano simply signed thinking that he would probably join, but that he still would have 30 days to think. Which might be the normal way when signing a contract in France. Or, some completely unrelated other unknown reason for this drama, either way, we don't know enough to have the full picture just yet.
So TL;DR number 2 (for the text between last TL;DR and this one): I just pointed out that I agree with Sheth that as a spectator, we don't know enough yet to bash any company (personally I want to know Stephano's point of view).
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On September 20 2011 06:59 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:33 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out here because these sorts of situations are really stressful for everyone involved. As spectators in this event, we don't really know everything that is going on behind the scenes. We can grab our pitchforks, light em on fire and go for the throat or we can realize we don't know who to use our pitchforks on and keep em locked up.
I don't like saying one player is stupid or this decision is wrong or -1 fan stephano because put simply we don't know the whole story. Even if we did know the whole story, its still rude to have hundreds of people telling you that your stupid. I've been in this situation before, and its no fun! I just hope people realize that posting on this forum DOES get read by both Stephano and both companies, Mil and Col and any slander directed at any of these parties will negatively affect them. Without all the information and even with it, lets promote e-sports not bash on one of our own. Company owners and pro-players are people too... LONG TEXT INC, there is 2 TL;DRs, one in mid and one at bottom, if you don't feel like reading all this shit. I strongly agree to many of the points you make. A lot of times when internet mobs get created at a certain target, that might not be actually aimed right, because of lack of information. The only thing I must disagree with is second last sentence. Where I think what you basically are saying is that we shouldn't speak bad of e-sport companies disregarding of what they are doing. That because we should promote e-sports and thus not bash e-sport companies that act wrong, because it might hurt them. Hurting them (my interpretation) as in possibly making they get less good sponsor deals, which can of course lead to less sponsored players. Meanwhile this looks good in theory, for me that would be only a band aid fix. In the short run (by reducing e-sport company X's chance of getting sponsors by giving them bad PR when they did something bad, which is what I think you are against) we will obviously be reducing both the speed of e-sports entering mainstream, and the money flow into e-sports. That is obviously something bad. Though, in the long run, if companies doesn't get punished as hard when acting unproffesional, chances are the bad companies wont be weeded out, and that the unproffesionalism of some teams might undermine the credibility of the entire e-sports scene. ( TL;DR of above writings, I disagree with being all fluffy against e-sports companies undepending of what they are doing, which I kind of interpreted in Sheth's text. I might have interpreted wrong, or just interpreted far to deeply, if so I still think my point is valid, even if it's no longer a disagreement with what Sheth wrote.) Also, as of this, I'd like to point out that I'm not actually pointing this "we shouldn't let unproffesional e-sport companies reign free" against any specific company in this drama incident. That as I throughly agree with Sheth's point that the view from a spectator point might be very invalid, at least in the early stages of the drama when all information might not be out yet. For all I know this might be just another incident related to cultural/law diffrencies in different countries. A comment (IE none related to, as far as I know, complexity, just another of us fans) on Complexity's homepage says: "Unfortunately, Stephano is well within his rights under French contract law here (French contract law always applies to contracts between French citizens and foreign companies, and a person can get out of any contract with no penalties within 30 days of signing it)." So possibly, Stephano simply signed thinking that he would probably join, but that he still would have 30 days to think. Which might be the normal way when signing a contract in France. Or, some completely unrelated other unknown reason for this drama, either way, we don't know enough to have the full picture just yet. So TL;DR number 2 (for the text between last TL;DR and this one): I just pointed out that I agree with Sheth that as a spectator, we don't know enough yet to bash any company (personally I want to know Stephano's point of view).
Please, please let the whole thing rest at that post until we actually know stuff
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the contract 'breach' is just a culture thing, in Japan ex-post alterations to contracts are common even in biggest businesses which deal with so much more money than a gaming team : )
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On September 20 2011 08:15 upreal wrote:
the contract 'breach' is just a culture thing, in Japan ex-post alterations to contracts are common even in biggest businesses which deal with so much more money than a gaming team : )
Silly comment. You need to list any precedent and the relevant pieces of legislation in both countries to say something like this with any authority.
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Is just wrong. I'm not saying Stephano is in the right here, just you, someone who hasn't seen the contract, doesn't know anything about how either team works behind the scenes; are complaining about Stephano is painful. This sort of attitude that you know everything about what is happening and you dismiss Stephano as someone who should not be trusted with a contract is ridiculous.
Have you ever talked to Stephano or anyone involved at all? I'm sure plenty of people in this world have broken a contract. Not stayed for an entire lease period? Not wanted to stay at a gym despite having a contract? Obviously this isn't the same type of contract, but there are negatives for properly signed contracts. For the lease period, maybe you have to pay an extra month, for the gym as well. For this maybe hes willing to have legal action taken against him to get out of it. The point is, you don't know. You REALLY don't.
Sheth Col did say they have a signed contract with him and are considering legal action. Mil does not dispute Col's contract so we do know that.
I'm not sure how you compare a contract to play with a team to a contract for a gym. They are very different.
Given your history I'm sure you can provide some insights into what these team contract contain as far as non-compete clauses, recourse etc..
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On September 20 2011 08:35 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:15 upreal wrote:
the contract 'breach' is just a culture thing, in Japan ex-post alterations to contracts are common even in biggest businesses which deal with so much more money than a gaming team : ) Silly comment. You need to list any precedent and the relevant pieces of legislation in both countries to say something like this with any authority.
This is not a pleading. This is a forum.
Also, he was talking about culture, not law.
We need to know more about the situation. It's doubtful we will.
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Good luck stephano! I really hope this allows him to improve as a player.
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If Stephano ever goes to Korea, I'm getting him for my GSTL Fantasy team. Just saying, coL.MvP will have the sickest Zergs outside of IM.
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On September 20 2011 08:44 mechavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:43 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Is just wrong. I'm not saying Stephano is in the right here, just you, someone who hasn't seen the contract, doesn't know anything about how either team works behind the scenes; are complaining about Stephano is painful. This sort of attitude that you know everything about what is happening and you dismiss Stephano as someone who should not be trusted with a contract is ridiculous.
Have you ever talked to Stephano or anyone involved at all? I'm sure plenty of people in this world have broken a contract. Not stayed for an entire lease period? Not wanted to stay at a gym despite having a contract? Obviously this isn't the same type of contract, but there are negatives for properly signed contracts. For the lease period, maybe you have to pay an extra month, for the gym as well. For this maybe hes willing to have legal action taken against him to get out of it. The point is, you don't know. You REALLY don't. Sheth Col did say they have a signed contract with him and are considering legal action. Mil does not dispute Col's contract so we do know that.I'm not sure how you compare a contract to play with a team to a contract for a gym. They are very different. Given your history I'm sure you can provide some insights into what these team contract contain as far as non-compete clauses, recourse etc..
Exactly what I had referred to in my post, thank you. I, as well as most everyone else in this thread know a bit about the situation from statements made by both parties involved, minus Stephano. He might really not care about the legal action, it still makes him a bad person to get into a contract with.
I know its a tough situation to be in, but I am not going to white-knight this player because hes learning decisions have consequence.
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Before Lewellis talked, Stephano has made a statement too. idk if he had his mind twisted by M† staff but he clearly said that he would stay with his actual team... hm M† I mean :p
We don't know all the stuff yet, so talking more about this is just verbiage :/
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Sick acquisition guys 
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:26 TheOne85 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:09 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
TheOne, did you know about French law with contracts? I surely didn't before this started up. That's a huge thing not to know much about. Perhaps maybe you don't know everything about this situation? The point isn't that we don't have any information, its that after one day and both sides not getting along initially there's no reason to come here and claim one team or the other is "ridiculous".
What if by tomorrow it turns out that there was a bunch of information we didn't know? I for one won't be "editing my post" to remove anything bad I said about one team or the other. As you've already edited your post, perhaps that won't bother you. I've edited my post to say what I had to say about your post that I had read after the fact, rather than adding onto the already large amount of pages here. Sure there could be some more information coming out, but unfortunately in this situation the amount of information already accessible is enough. 1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form. I don't believe I've said either team was ridiculous. This whole situation is, and its all at fault of someone who reneged on a contract. I'd really like to see the true reasoning behind it, without the fluff. So the part where you say "1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form." Is just wrong. I'm not saying Stephano is in the right here, just you, someone who hasn't seen the contract, doesn't know anything about how either team works behind the scenes; are complaining about Stephano is painful. This sort of attitude that you know everything about what is happening and you dismiss Stephano as someone who should not be trusted with a contract is ridiculous. Have you ever talked to Stephano or anyone involved at all? I'm sure plenty of people in this world have broken a contract. Not stayed for an entire lease period? Not wanted to stay at a gym despite having a contract? Obviously this isn't the same type of contract, but there are negatives for properly signed contracts. For the lease period, maybe you have to pay an extra month, for the gym as well. For this maybe hes willing to have legal action taken against him to get out of it. The point is, you don't know. You REALLY don't.
For Esports as an industry to grow things like this CANNOT happen.
I understand your point of view perfectly and don't think anyone should bash Stephano as a person but what he did here, with all the information we have, is in the wrong and should not be allowed to happen if we want Esports to have any legitimacy what so ever.
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I get why complexitys pissed.. This is bs from millenium
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On September 20 2011 06:43 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:26 TheOne85 wrote:On September 20 2011 06:09 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
TheOne, did you know about French law with contracts? I surely didn't before this started up. That's a huge thing not to know much about. Perhaps maybe you don't know everything about this situation? The point isn't that we don't have any information, its that after one day and both sides not getting along initially there's no reason to come here and claim one team or the other is "ridiculous".
What if by tomorrow it turns out that there was a bunch of information we didn't know? I for one won't be "editing my post" to remove anything bad I said about one team or the other. As you've already edited your post, perhaps that won't bother you. I've edited my post to say what I had to say about your post that I had read after the fact, rather than adding onto the already large amount of pages here. Sure there could be some more information coming out, but unfortunately in this situation the amount of information already accessible is enough. 1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form. I don't believe I've said either team was ridiculous. This whole situation is, and its all at fault of someone who reneged on a contract. I'd really like to see the true reasoning behind it, without the fluff. So the part where you say "1. He did sign the contract. 2. He did renege. These points are all anyone really needs to conclude that Stephano is not to be trusted with a contract in any form." Is just wrong. I'm not saying Stephano is in the right here, just you, someone who hasn't seen the contract, doesn't know anything about how either team works behind the scenes; are complaining about Stephano is painful. This sort of attitude that you know everything about what is happening and you dismiss Stephano as someone who should not be trusted with a contract is ridiculous. Have you ever talked to Stephano or anyone involved at all? I'm sure plenty of people in this world have broken a contract. Not stayed for an entire lease period? Not wanted to stay at a gym despite having a contract? Obviously this isn't the same type of contract, but there are negatives for properly signed contracts. For the lease period, maybe you have to pay an extra month, for the gym as well. For this maybe hes willing to have legal action taken against him to get out of it. The point is, you don't know. You REALLY don't.
according to the col statement, he did sign (knowing the contract conditions) and then afterward, he decided to stay with Millenium. Those two informations have been provided by both parties, I don't see why you said he was wrong in those two.
it is a huge difference between your "examples of contract" and employer's and contractual law's definition of contract.
either way, if he decided to stay in Millenium, he should be aware of the possible consequences and if col's contract is in effect, his decision to stay would be rebutted unless col asks for another remedies.
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Stephano is an extremely intelligent guy, this is something I would not expect from someone like him.
Me thinks there is a lot more to the story
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EPT
