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Yeah this op isn't great.
Cosmetic surgery on babies should be illegal. When your child is old enough, let him choose if he wants to be circumcised. Children aren't dogs, you can't crop their ears or dock their tails.
Better or worse is irrelevant, it's not up to you. You have no right to permanently remove any part of your childs body for non medical reasons. I'm sorry if your religion mandates it, but this is an unethical practice and you should reflect upon it.
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On September 09 2011 11:30 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:28 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? Yes (that aspect of it, at least). On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. Sorry. On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. Not right when they pop out of the womb, no. But by the time it will matter (i.e. when they're having sex), they'll certainly be able to make such a decision, which is why you cannot rationally justify circumcising an infant without invoking "MY DADDY AND MY RELIGION TOLD ME TO." 1. How so? I'm genuinely interested in knowing because I disagree. 2. Have you ever seen a grown man get a circumcised penis after they've hit puberty and everything, including nerves and organs are fully matured. Think about it.
1. Not responding to this, cause it's not directed at me.
2. I haven't 'seen' it, but if you read through this thread, you will find plenty of people who have admitted to exactly that, for better or worse.
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On September 09 2011 11:34 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:31 Karliath wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. ![[image loading]](http://teamfinlayson.co.uk/funnystuff/tradition.jpg) On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally. People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me. How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family).
Because not everyone is going to be Jewish from birth to death, what if they change to a religion where having your foreskin is considered an honor and a sign of god's love? Sometimes entire families switch religions, just because the new husband is a different religion and can't marry out of it.
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Why would I cut a part of my son's penis? I'm no naturalistic hippie but fuck man, that's insane.
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On September 09 2011 11:30 Torte de Lini wrote:
1. How so? I'm genuinely interested in knowing because I disagree.
You are amputating a piece of your child's body for no reason. That is inherently stupid.
On September 09 2011 11:30 Torte de Lini wrote:
2. Have you ever seen a grown man get a circumcised penis after they've hit puberty and everything, including nerves and organs are fully matured.
Yes. As a matter of fact, I was circumcised when I was 18 due to phimosis. Even though I ended up having to get it done, I'm glad that my parents gave me the choice, and removing the foreskin because it might have problems down the line makes about as much sense as removing the appendix preemptively in case you ever get appendicitis.
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On September 09 2011 07:47 TALegion wrote:
I'm kind of confused. What are the arguments for not doing it, other than supposed sexual dissatisfaction and pain as a baby? Claiming there are not benefits isn't really a reason to be against it, as much as simply not being for it.
If the OP's claims are correct, there is little scientific basis for a torturous procedure -- mutilation without anesthesia.
What are the arguments for not doing clit removal, other than supposed sexual dissatisfaction and pain as a baby?
Which is why science trumps culturally acceptable mutilation, which is what you have bought into.
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On September 09 2011 11:31 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you. But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them. As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
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On September 09 2011 11:34 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:31 Karliath wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally. People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me. How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family).
What if I my family is part of Religion X, and all newborn babies have their ears cut off. Sure, my hearing may worsen a bit, but I can still hear just fine. 5 years later, I decide that I don't want to believe in Religions X. Now what do I do...I have no ears, and to everyone outside of Religion X, having no ears is not a good thing.
I'm not saying this as a direct parallel to circumcision, rather something based on your logic of "neither right or wrong" and "tradition upheld" because of "respect."
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On September 09 2011 11:27 Torte de Lini wrote:
TL respects the ideals of other religions as long as they are tasteful and long-founded (in this case, there is a symbolic representation of circumcision).
You really need to use your sociological imagination here.
Oh sorry, I should have remembered that your rituals are more normalized and therefore are okay.
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On September 09 2011 11:36 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:31 BlueBird. wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you. But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them. As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me. I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest. I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both. Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life. I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
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On September 09 2011 11:35 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:34 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:31 Karliath wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally. People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me. How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family). Because not everyone is going to be Jewish from birth to death, what if they change to a religion where having your foreskin is considered an honor and a sign of god's love? Sometimes entire families switch religions, just because the new husband is a different religion and can't marry out of it.
What if this and that, I don't understand. Are we meant to withhold decisions purely because of what if scenarios? Outrageous ones on top of that.
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On September 09 2011 11:38 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:36 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:31 BlueBird. wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you. But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them. As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me. I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest. I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both. Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life. I do love Passover though. Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
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On September 09 2011 11:23 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:16 Roe wrote:On September 09 2011 11:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Diks wrote:On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote:
THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though. EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that. EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head. This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc. I know, outrageous. Sociology/Anthropology. how did we get to arranged marriages? O.o It's parallel to the idea that giving a child all the decisions in the world is utopian, but unrealistic and stupid in reality.
it's the same utopia as giving the parents all the decisions. you're assuming all parents are intelligent, good people. there's all too many cases where parents neglect to give their children water or food or keep them locked up because of some cultural/religious idea or what have you. In the end, you can't have one extreme because reductio ad absurdum will prove it's wrong. I'm just arguing that there should be a point where the community or the state should intervene to protect those that cannot protect themselves(this is sounding eerily like a pro-life argument) in a reasonable fashion.
you wouldn't trust the parents to do everything and anything they wanted to, would you? and who is arguing for giving a child all the decisions in the world? I'm just asking for you to respect your children as individual human beings, and not as slaves, or something that experiment with. If this means breaking with "tradition" then so be it. We should cast these archaic and obsolete ways to sea.
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On September 09 2011 11:37 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:27 Torte de Lini wrote:
TL respects the ideals of other religions as long as they are tasteful and long-founded (in this case, there is a symbolic representation of circumcision).
You really need to use your sociological imagination here. Oh sorry, I should have remembered that your rituals are more normalized and therefore are okay.
Apology accepted.
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This thread makes me cringe, circumcision grosses me out.
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On September 09 2011 11:39 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:38 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:36 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:31 BlueBird. wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you. But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them. As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me. I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest. I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both. Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life. I do love Passover though. Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself. Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
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On September 09 2011 11:36 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:31 BlueBird. wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you. But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them. As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me. I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest. I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both. Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life. I do love Passover though.
Your missing my point, and I didn't mean to give the impression that I think that teaching religion to a child is wrong, that's an entirely different discussion and leading off the course of this thread. I personally would never raise a child as an particular religion or faith, but to each his own. However, altering that child's body because of their religion could be wrong.. Just cause you and maybe even most, were fine with that, doesn't mean that all are going to be. Maybe your just fine with it cause that's how you've known your penis to be your whole life, just like me. Maybe if I wasn't when I was young, I would be totally completely mad at anyone wanting to cut off part of my penis.
And yes I think that we should uphold decisions based on what if scenarios when dealing with archaic traditions that should be thrown out to sea, I'm actually done with what I thought would be a constructive argument just cause you seem to take offense to everything that's been said so far.
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On September 09 2011 11:40 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:23 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:16 Roe wrote:On September 09 2011 11:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Diks wrote:On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote:
THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though. EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that. EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head. This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc. I know, outrageous. Sociology/Anthropology. how did we get to arranged marriages? O.o It's parallel to the idea that giving a child all the decisions in the world is utopian, but unrealistic and stupid in reality. it's the same utopia as giving the parents all the decisions. you're assuming all parents are intelligent, good people. there's all too many cases where parents neglect to give their children water or food or keep them locked up because of some cultural/religious idea or what have you. In the end, you can't have one extreme because reductio ad absurdum will prove it's wrong. I'm just arguing that there should be a point where the community or the state should intervene to protect those that cannot protect themselves(this is sounding eerily like a pro-life argument) in a reasonable fashion. you wouldn't trust the parents to do everything and anything they wanted to, would you? and who is arguing for giving a child all the decisions in the world? I'm just asking for you to respect your children as individual human beings, and not as slaves, or something that experiment with. If this means breaking with "tradition" then so be it. We should cast these archaic and obsolete ways to sea.
I give parents the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the welfare of their own children. There's not many publicized cases where parents are good parents because guess what? It's the expected norm and assumed to be the majority of parents' nature towards their children.
I would trust them to make decisions for me until I was old enough or mature enough to make the decisions on my own. I'm not shelving the idea that I don't deserve to make decisions, but the best medium would be that in times of major decisions both my consent or view with my parent's own judgement would be the best middle-path.
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On September 09 2011 11:42 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 11:39 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:38 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:36 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:31 BlueBird. wrote:On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 09 2011 11:23 matjlav wrote:On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family. On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both. Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both. I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful. You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision. You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over. No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you. But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them. As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me. I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest. I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both. Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life. I do love Passover though. Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself. Point being, I don't have an issue with it. But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
History says he won't. If he does, we can talk about it and see if it is truly an issue or there is an underlying issue that is associated with his circumcision.
I don't see why circumcision is an issue. Is a young adult really going to fit with his parents about a decision he has no conscious memory of ever recalling being taken away from him?
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On September 09 2011 11:44 Torte de Lini wrote:
but the best medium would be that in times of major decisions both my consent or view with my parent's own judgement would be the best middle-path.
Ahem. Does this not directly lead to not performing infant circumcisions? Wait until you can get the consent of your kid as well before performing cosmetic surgeries on him.
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EPT
