This word evokes mixed feelings in people. On one hand we're supposedly reducing the risk of STDs, Penile cancer, and other various genital diseases for our precious little boys. On another hand, it's widely believed that by doing this to our little girls we are putting them through tremendous pain and agony.
What people don't realize is that whether it's a girl or a boy, it still hurts like fucking hell. In about 95% of the circumcision videos I've watched (even the ones with applied anasthetic) the baby almost always shrieks with agony. Some say that this is the baby crying because it's restrained. This is not true. I have been to visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly. In almost every circumcision video, when the procedure actually begins and the foreskin is amputated, the shrieking escalates tenfold.
"Male circumcision is the surgical removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis.[1] The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and cædere (meaning "to cut"). Early depictions of circumcision are found in cave paintings and Ancient Egyptian tombs, though some pictures are open to interpretation.[2][3][4] Religious male circumcision is considered a commandment from God in Judaism.[5][6] In Islam, though not discussed in the Qur'an, male circumcision is widely practised and most often considered to be a sunnah.[7] It is also customary in some Christian churches in Africa, including some Oriental Orthodox Churches.[8]
Wikipedia
The basics of circumcision: Did you know that...
Medical infant male circumcision was initially introduced to curb masturbation? (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Most men in the world and the great majority of men in Europe, Scandinavia, Central and South America and Asia are not circumcised. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Before a Foreskin can be removed from an infant penis, it must be seperated from the glans. The two are naturally fused together until puberty, and so a probe must be slipped between the two and peel the foreskin away. This is incredibly painful for the baby. It also accounts for a bloody, raw appearance of the penis throughout the circumcision.
The foreskin is the most sexually sensitive part of the penis. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all circumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Even if the above claim is true, it would require circumcising around 1000 men to protect only one. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Circumcision provides no protection at all for gay men or woman. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
There is heavy hemorrhaging and possibly fatal bloodloss during some circumcisions.
Why we are still performing circumcision today: + Show Spoiler +
The biggest reason is the psychological factor. Most men born in the mid 1900's are circumcised. Now that generation is about 40 and 50, which means they probably had kids in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. In today's society, with all this information, we know that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure. It also has a 50% chance of narrowing of the urethra, which can lead to many other complications. Such as keratinization of the glans. Most importantly, Sexual satisfaction is greatly reduced. This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal. If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
On that note, has anyone else noticed that what circumcision supposedly prevents changes between eras? 40 years ago it was supposed to prevent the cancer of the penis. Now it supposedly prevents HIV. This would only happen if neither of those were truly prevented, and pro-circumcisionists simply want to appeal to people's fears.
This image will differentiate the two. It's not real pictures, but it's still NSFW + Show Spoiler +
"So I'm circumcised, what do I do to alleviate this problem?" + Show Spoiler +
Well, I admit I've probably been really pissing you off, I've been telling you that your sex life can never be what it should have been, and you probably have inferred that Circumcision causes more problems than it has a tiny chance of solving. Some of these are remediable, however.
Believe it or not, your foreskin isn't gone forever. It can actually be restored. See this link for information. If you prefer a site that provides very specialized information and instruction, this site may be better.
Other solutions include artificial foreskins that keep the glans in a moist environment, as it would be while under the mucosa membrane. Often times circumcised penises form calluses on them, as they are exposed to clothing and dry air. This desensitizes the glans and detracts from sexual sensitivity. Covering the glans allows it to heal and restores it's sensitivity. Most circumcised men who try these practices report increased sexual sensitivity and increased day to day comfort.
It is important to not, however, that it is impossible to regrow the lost nerve endings. Because of this, Circumcised penises, although restored, can never be as sensitive as untouched penises. So the argument that "You can just regrow it back anyway" is only partially true. Plus, regrowing foreskins takes years.
This is possibly the only pro-circumcision argument that has any credit to it. Circumcised penises are cleaner, but they don't attain a cleanliness that can't be attained by retracting the foreskin of a normal penis and rinsing it with warm water in the shower. In some ways, urinating while not retracting the foreskin can be hygienic. Urine is sterile, and in a way cleanses the inner foreskin.
Basically, the hygiene myth only applies when you don't take showers every day and can't/don't retract the foreskin and clean the area. In a country like this where you have all that stuff, the only inconvenience is taking 30 seconds each shower. What do you get in exchange? Day to day comfort and a dick that isn't callused and scarred. Both partners also have a lot more pleasure in sex.
"It's just a little snip! It's not a lot of skin!" + Show Spoiler +
Absolutely wrong. Circumcision removes 15 Square inches of tissue from the adult penis! That counts both the inner and outer foreskin, but it's still a huge number. That's roughly the size of a playing card, counting both sides.
It's not a little snip, either. The foreskin must be torn away from the glans, which involves shoving a probe in between the two. This is incredible painful and isn't even the full extent of the procedure, which leaves the glans raw, bloody, and exposed.
Yes, I know there are previous threads on circumcision. None of them, however, address the issue in the op and provide detailed information. That is what I am trying to do.
I won't pretend to be neutral here. I am strongly opposed to circumcision and I believe that it is a horrible practice that should be stopped. I made this thread to inform you, the reader about it and to quash some of the myths that it prevents HIV, along with other bullcrap.
Also, on the Intactivism pages are videos and stills of the procedure itself. Look at them at your own risk, but they do portray just how gruesome it is and just how much pain the patient is in.
This topic is meant to inform and eradicate some of the myths about circumcision. I am not pretending that I am neutral in this.
On September 09 2011 11:56 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: Ok I'm going to have to clarify a ton of things I see being called out on me here...
I wrote the op in such a biased manner because I feel so fucking strong about this. It would be very hard for me to concede the points of the other side of the argument. If I tried to write neutral I would still be called out for bias. Also, to every moron who's calling out my bias, I put a fucking disclaimer smack dab at the bottom of the post. I SAID I wasn't going to pretend to be unbiased ffs. Stop calling me out on it.
Also, I've seen a lot of posts who are insulting me. "i bet OP is uncut and his gf laughed and crushed his dreams and now hes defending his ego." or "OP is prolly cut and now he's trying to tell us how screwed we are."
Fuck you.
First off that's the definition of argumentum ad hominem; a logical fallacy. You seek to discredit me by insult.
Second off it's not true. I am uncut and the reason I posted this thread is to give babies the choice. It disturbs me that this practice happens, to INFANTS no less. So I seek to inform people about the detractors of circumcision. I didn't include the other side of the argument because almost everybody's heard it.
And finally, I'm requesting a close. I made a mistake by posting this here and all I've accomplished is driving this argument in circles and pissing everybody off. I see so much misinformed bullshit on here that it blows me away. People are saying that the foreskin has no purpose+ Show Spoiler +
It was give to us by evolution/god, and it protects the glans from abrasion. Are you fucking stupid?
You're removing healthy, living tissue without immediate medical reason. The preventative crap is like cutting off someones fingers because they might get slammed in doors.
some are even stupid enough to say "Well I'm circumcised and I'M okay!" + Show Spoiler +
Seriously? The reason you can't feel anything is that your glans, which is naturally covered by the inner foreskin (a mucosa membrane), is exposed to the elements and like it or not, you've developed a callus on it and now you can't feel the pleasure of sex before you reach orgasm. Saying that you last longer is bull because last is almost purely psychological. Plus, you've never had the comparison.
Even saying that it looks better is crap because I'd bet good money that if you grew up with it, you'd like it too. Plus, it's your kids penis, not yours.
All of these claims are bullcrap. Clearly I can't convince anyone here that that's what they are. So I'm going to cut my losses here and end this vicious cycle of flame.
The status of foreskin in the world thus far has been a farce.
But yeah, I've always seen circumcision as a really interesting topic. My girlfriend has expressed that she finds them much more aesthetically pleasing and personally many times I have felt thankful that I am circumcised. At the same time, the reason she and I feel the way we do is likely just because we are accustomed to it. In all honesty, I can totally understand OP's point. I am not as swayed by the discomfort or shrieking that it causes in infants, but seeing as it doesn't really provide any benefits I wouldn't mind seeing it phased out to in a few generations people think, "I can't believe people used to do that!!"
Given the history of circumcision in Judaism, that first point is dubious... Otherwise, I guess I'm one of the lucky ones from Scandinavia. I wouldn't circumcise my child.
"This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal."
Why would you count both sides of a playing card? That's such a weird comparison -- it seems heavily slanted to bias the reader into making it think it's 2x the amount.
In fact, the entire OP is entirely one-sided facts and information. I can't take any of it seriously because I have no idea what's blatantly misleading and what's actual truth because you only provide information about one side of the argument and completely dismiss the opposite side.
I'm kind of confused. What are the arguments for not doing it, other than supposed sexual dissatisfaction and pain as a baby? Claiming there are not benefits isn't really a reason to be against it, as much as simply not being for it.
EDIT: What the fuck is that shit about inherited inferiority? I don't give a fuck.
2nd EDIT:
On September 09 2011 07:47 Dimagus wrote: Real men should have to get circumcised as an adult. Without flinching.
There are some tribes in africa that do similar procedures with the the same rules. It's a ceremony to become a man, and the victim cannot show a shred of pain. Nothing, or else they're not a man.
On September 09 2011 07:44 Rotodyne wrote: Did you just completely make up this part:
"This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal."
cause it sure as fuck sounds like you did.
Even if it's made up(I doubt it is), his theory is in line with classic defense mechanisms. It may not even happen often, but it's undoubted that it will happen to some.
On September 09 2011 07:44 Rotodyne wrote: Did you just completely make up this part:
"This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal."
cause it sure as fuck sounds like you did.
If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
Maybe just me, but the part about "I believe" makes it sound less believable. Also the fact that he doesn't cite anything here.
I was circumcised when I was a baby because I had problems in the penis and I had surgery. I have no "inferiority feeling" (why would I anyways), and I feel pretty good when I'm with a girl.
On that note, has anyone else noticed that what circumcision supposedly prevents changes between eras? 40 years ago it was supposed to prevent the cancer of the penis. Now it supposedly prevents HIV. This would only happen if neither of those were truly prevented, and pro-circumcisionists simply want to appeal to people's fears.
You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Sexual dissatisfaction? Do you know sex just isn't about how you're feeling, but the woman? Every single girl I've been with has said they prefer circumcised to not. (aka cut vs uncut) Plus, based on what my uncircumcised friends tell me, they don't last near as long as circumcised males do. And I don't know about others, but the longer you last, the better your woman feels, the more erotic it gets = more sexual satisfaction. This is purely based on my own personal experiences, but I don't like how biased it seems at how you're trying to convince everyone how terrible circumcision is.
On September 09 2011 07:46 Craton wrote: Why would you count both sides of a playing card? That's such a weird comparison -- it seems heavily slanted to bias the reader into making it think it's 2x the amount.
In fact, the entire OP is entirely one-sided facts and information. I can't take any of it seriously because I have no idea what's blatantly misleading and what's actual truth because you only provide information about one side of the argument and completely dismiss the opposite side.
He actually said
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all circumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
It's an antiquated ritual and, like you mentioned, performed for the sake of conformity more than anything else.
I have read however, that it's easier to keep a circumsized penis clean and infection free as there are simply less folds of skin for bacteria and such to get trapped in. It's more difficult to get HIV and other STDs with a circumsized penis as well. Of course, with proper cleaning and safe sex, this is a null point.
I've been contemplating what I would do if I have a son. I think circumcision a silly thing overall, but it's also hard to underestimate the psychological stress a teen might have to endure from the constant teasing of his peers
It's an annoying debate that shouldn't have to be held. Seems to be the case with lots of things that have been founded in religion.
EDIT: Thinking more about this has lead me to believe that I will let my child decide for himself. Seems like a logical and perfectly reasonable thing to do.
Had to do a double take once you got to rambling about how circumcised people have some inferiority complex so that's why they in turn circumcise their own children. There is a lot of assumptions being made there with a whole lot of 'no evidence' to support it. Myself being a circumcised male I have never had an issue with sexual arousal or performance. Otherwise good post, very informative.
I am glad I am circumcised. It makes my penis prettier. When I want to feel more I just have more intense intercourse, intercourse that would probably tear an overabundance of foreskin.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
Following your logic all women should cut off their breasts to eliminate breast cancer
You're going to have to bring some sources that aren't from a website called Intact avism if you want an actual discussion. As it stands you seem to care a hundredfold more about my circumcision than I do, your evidence that it was traumatic and painful to me as a child is.. well like everyone has said- I can't remember it. Must not be that bad; and finally I'm completely satisfied with the functionality of the procedure.
Soo yeah... come back with objective sources OR worry about whats in your pants and not mine?
I might have a weird view, but there are cultural traditions that are pretty hard to break. Even if you label it as genital mutilation and spout a million points about how cruel, unethical, and unfair it is, I suspect that those who don't already have a fault with circumcision are going to roll their eyes. I'm American and it is so extremely common and acceptable that literally no one I've ever met has complained about it or even at least talked about it. So if you wonder why I think this way it is because that is all I ever encounter.
As a circumcised man I honestly can't tell you if I'm missing some great deal of life and it makes no difference to me. My parents made a decision that they felt was right and it hasn't hurt me yet, at least in a real way and not a theoretical one. From the reverse viewpoint would I feel lucky if I wasn't uncircumcised or would I feel different in a bad way? Honestly I wouldn't be able to tell you and I don't care as it doesn't affect me at all.
Maybe if I actually consciously knew the feeling of pulling back some skin to clean myself or urinate and how that skin was "sexually sensitive" then I would have a different opinion. Or I might envy people that don't deal with that every day. The point is it doesn't matter a damn because that decision was made for me by the best two possible people.
Pretty hard to have any kind of discussion around this since no one knows boths sides of it. Oh well, my view on it is that it seems unnecessary, thats all...
Your sources are absolutely terrible and horribly biased, go look at randomized, controlled HIV trials in Africa for starters. This thread should be closed.
I'll probably have my sons circumcised, not because it is good, but because women are cruel and irrational beings. I wish we lived in a world where that weren't the case.
On September 09 2011 07:49 samaNo4 wrote: Is this a joke?
I was circumcised when I was a baby because I had problems in the penis and I had surgery. I have no "inferiority feeling" (why would I anyways), and I feel pretty good when I'm with a girl.
How do you know you dont have "inferiority feelings"?
On September 09 2011 07:56 Interloper wrote: Pretty hard to have any kind of discussion around this since no one knows boths sides of it. Oh well, my view on it is that it seems unnecessary, thats all...
Now that you say this someone will pop in the thread claiming to have had a botched circumcision, and now half their penis is , and half isn't. He will set the record straight =)
On September 09 2011 07:56 Interloper wrote: Pretty hard to have any kind of discussion around this since no one knows boths sides of it. Oh well, my view on it is that it seems unnecessary, thats all...
Now that you say this someone will pop in the thread claiming to have had a botched circumcision, and now half their penis is , and half isn't. He will set the record straight =)
Well, somebody who had phimosys can come and tell how is it like before and after the cut.
On September 09 2011 07:34 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly.
On September 09 2011 07:57 Derez wrote: Your sources are absolutely terrible and horribly biased, go look at randomized, controlled HIV trials in Africa for starters. This thread should be closed.
You mind linking to such a study? I admit I haven't done heavy research on the subject, but I have not seen any trials that suggests circumcision helps prevent HIV.
On September 09 2011 07:56 Interloper wrote: Pretty hard to have any kind of discussion around this since no one knows boths sides of it. Oh well, my view on it is that it seems unnecessary, thats all...
Now that you say this someone will pop in the thread claiming to have had a botched circumcision, and now half their penis is , and half isn't. He will set the record straight =)
You are probably right, but... If he had a Botched circumcision, the little guy would not be in tip-top shape i'd imagine, so whatever he would say, it's still invalid. Or maybe not, idk...
On September 09 2011 07:49 samaNo4 wrote: Is this a joke?
I was circumcised when I was a baby because I had problems in the penis and I had surgery. I have no "inferiority feeling" (why would I anyways), and I feel pretty good when I'm with a girl.
How do you know you dont have "inferiority feelings"?
How do you know you're retarded and everyone's been playing along with it to make you feel good? You don't, but it's a pretty safe assumption to make.
1: I don't remember my circumcision 2: I'm glad i'm circumcised 3: It's done in a humane way 4: It's more beneficial than having nothing done, easier to maintain good hygiene etc. 5: My penis is still plenty sensitive, and if anything it makes guys last longer during sex, sooooo the sensitivity argument is a little invalid.
On September 09 2011 07:49 samaNo4 wrote: Is this a joke?
I was circumcised when I was a baby because I had problems in the penis and I had surgery. I have no "inferiority feeling" (why would I anyways), and I feel pretty good when I'm with a girl.
How do you know you dont have "inferiority feelings"?
How do you know you're retarded and everyone's been playing along with it to make you feel good? You don't, but it's a pretty safe assumption to make.
Is it weird that sometimes I do something stupid and following it I have these exact thoughts.....
When I read this article I was expect something about circumcision listing what it is, and why it's done. Leaving people to talk about it themselves, but instead you go on ranting about how circumcision is evil and has no use. Notice how none, or few, men who are circumcised go on ranting about how you should be. But alot of uncircumcised men go on about how it's evil.
On September 09 2011 08:02 Stropheum wrote: 1: I don't remember my circumcision 2: I'm glad i'm circumcised 3: It's done in a humane way 4: It's more beneficial than having nothing done, easier to maintain good hygiene etc. 5: My penis is still plenty sensitive, and if anything it makes guys last longer during sex, sooooo the sensitivity argument is a little invalid.
Just a question on number 4 there... Would it be easier to clean your head if you did not have any ears as well then?
On September 09 2011 07:49 samaNo4 wrote: Is this a joke?
I was circumcised when I was a baby because I had problems in the penis and I had surgery. I have no "inferiority feeling" (why would I anyways), and I feel pretty good when I'm with a girl.
Well, you should actually feel better when you're with a girl LOL. Besides, this kind of post just kind of screams inferiority!
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
Following your logic all women should cut off their breasts to eliminate breast cancer
and everyone should be forced into a preemptive appendectomy
On September 09 2011 08:01 Thorakh wrote: Wait what? I thought circumcision was widely recognized as being unnecessary and stupid?
I think that's the general point of view in Western Europe at least. Cultural values differ though. It seems some Americans find it more aesthetically pleasing and then there are of course religious reasons for some people. Also there are some minor points in favor of circumcision (such as better default cleanliness), but from my knowledge if you ignore aesthetics and religion most evidence suggests we should avoid it.
On September 09 2011 08:00 Frigo wrote: It is genital mutilation and child abuse, no matter how you look at it. It should be illegal to circumcise anyone under 18. End of story.
It should be illegal to circumcise anyone OVER 18. Man, you know how would it hurt when the thing is awake just after the surgery? I have shivers only thinking about it .
On September 09 2011 07:57 Derez wrote: Your sources are absolutely terrible and horribly biased, go look at randomized, controlled HIV trials in Africa for starters. This thread should be closed.
You mind linking to such a study? I admit I haven't done heavy research on the subject, but I have not seen any trials that suggests circumcision helps prevent HIV.
Williams, Brian G.; James O. Lloyd-Smith, Eleanor Gouws, Catherine Hankins, Wayne M. Getz, John Hargrove, Isabelle de Zoysa, Christopher Dye, Bertran Auvert (July 2006). "The Potential Impact of Male Circumcision on HIV in Sub-Saharan Africa"
Gray RH, Kigozi G, Serwadda D, Makumbi F, Watya S, Nalugoda F, Kiwanuka N, Moulton LH, Chaudhary MA, Chen MZ, Sewankambo NK, Wabwire-Mangen F, Bacon MC, Williams CF, Opendi P, Reynolds SJ, Laeyendecker O, Quinn TC, Wawer MJ. Male Circumcision for HIV Prevention in Men in Rakai, Uganda: A Randomised Trial. Lancet. 2007 Feb 24;369(9562):657-66. Male Circumcision for HIV Prevention in Men in Rakai, Uganda: A Randomised Trial
Can we close this horrible thread now? And just to make it clear, I'm not circumcised, and I don't feel one is better or worse then the other. Hardly anyone remembers their circumcision in the first place. Next up is a thread on baptism being evil because it makes babies cry.
On September 09 2011 07:49 samaNo4 wrote: Is this a joke?
I was circumcised when I was a baby because I had problems in the penis and I had surgery. I have no "inferiority feeling" (why would I anyways), and I feel pretty good when I'm with a girl.
How do you know you dont have "inferiority feelings"?
How do you know you're retarded and everyone's been playing along with it to make you feel good? You don't, but it's a pretty safe assumption to make.
Is it weird that sometimes I do something stupid and following it I have these exact thoughts.....
I hope it's not weird, cause I've thought the same thing too. It's how I knew what to say :3 Same goes for being crazy. A crazy person has no idea that they are, right? Freaks me out thinking about it o.O
Dunno how i feel about it personally. I was circumsized at birth so I didn't have a choice, but I have grown to like it. Its alot easier to keep clean, etc. There are alot of advantages to being circumsized
Incredibly biased and clearly you don't know what it's like.
I was circumcised when I was young because Idk I had too much foreskin and peeing was difficult and messy or something. I never really asked because I don't really care. Most of my childhood, when I asked if I was circumcised I said yes and people laughed. When I asked what was wrong with that, they couldn't answer, and so I laughed. This encouraged people around me to not be afraid to say they are circumcised and not be ashamed about it. Then again when you're a kid you're ashamed of anything you do that ain't what everybody else does. You quickly grow out of it.
Then, woman really don't care. In fact the ones who know the difference between a circumcised and uncircumcised penis are the ones who just finished their bio class and learned it.
One ain't really better than the other. You can say that sex won't be as good but that's pretty much bullshit. It's not like the rest of your penis isn't insanely sensitive as well. I doubt many would argue that the head is basically as sensitive as the foreskin.
You might have a complex when you're a kid but as you get older male circumcision is basically a not a problem for anybody. One isn't better than the other. No offense but I think OP has a complex, rofl. Unless you have other sources (like your own scientific research) I won't think much of your post. I'm actually pretty surprised that there's pro/con circumcision website.
My stance on it: I don't think anyone should be circumcised for absolutely no reason. Much like I don't think people should have the appendicitis removed for absolutely no reason. If there's a tiny chance that it might cause a problem, then remove it because there's not reason not to.
Female circumcision is a major issue that should be discussed, imo. Not male circumcision and which is better. It's a very useless debate.
The pros and cons of health and sexual factors are only part of this. It is the human rights aspect that is an issue. The baby never decided to have a large portion of foreskin removed from his penis.
And as for smegma... I mean really I run a tight ship down there and I never have had any problems.
Don't circumcise your kids and tell them to keep that shit clean, easy enough.
If anyone wants to have himself circumcised, by all means, go ahead. However mutilating the genetalia of small children / babies (hence done without consent!) should be made illegal.
Also this,
Edit: removed one of the links as it is basicly more of the same.
The biggest reason is the psychological factor. Most men born in the mid 1900's are circumcised. Now that generation is about 40 and 50, which means they probably had kids in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. In today's society, with all this information, we know that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure. It also has a 50% chance of narrowing of the urethra, which can lead to many other complications. Such as keratinization of the glans. Most importantly, Sexual satisfaction is greatly reduced. This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal. If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
On that note, has anyone else noticed that what circumcision supposedly prevents changes between eras? 40 years ago it was supposed to prevent the cancer of the penis. Now it supposedly prevents HIV. This would only happen if neither of those were truly prevented, and pro-circumcisionists simply want to appeal to people's fears.
this isn't true at all in North America.
You really need to look beyond your biased sources...
I’m going to try to make this a short as possible and spare literary embellishment to facilitate the dissemination of my beliefs about circumcision. I will be presenting my argument from an American point view, meaning that I do not want to apply these beliefs to foreign cultures.
I strongly feel that male circumcision violates the rights of a human child. In our culture we believe that people have the right to their body, this should include the right to the whole of their flesh. The decisions of a boy’s parents to remove his foreskin should not be available in my view of a better world.
Some people try to defend male circumcision as a protected religious or cultural practice, I will present two arguments that I believe successfully nullify this approach. The first is that in the United States the similar practice of female circumcision; or as it is more commonly and more appropriately called female genital mutilation, is illegal and considered child abuse by many Americans. This practice is supported by the cultural and religious traditions of many people. The second point that I would like to make is that forced circumcision violates the religious freedom of the child. This rite is not akin to a baptism in that if the child ages and decides not to follow the religion of their upbringing there is no genuine harm or foul. In this case they have been subjected to an irreversible procedure for a faith that they do not follow.
Others attempt to promote the circumcision of the young by touting that it decreases the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Even thought the validity of these claims is debated I would like to establish an effective rebuttal that works from a stand point that the aforementioned belief is accurate. Circumcision does not affect the spread of sexually transmitted diseases when prophylactics such as condoms are properly used. In the absence of condoms circumcision will not effectively shield an individual who continually engages in high risk sex. The spread of STDs is most effectively combated with proper education and safe sexual behavior.
I’ve heard some parents claim that they had their son “cut” because they wanted to spare them the pain of having a procedure that they would “know” their son would inevitably have latter in their life. Their justification for denying their child the right to their flesh is to spare the child pain or embarrassment. This to me represents the definition of overly protective. No matter what society or future sexual partners may think of the status of your child the only opinion that matters is their own. We as strong individuals also should strive to create society where we don’t shield our young from decisions because they are harrowing.
Finally I conclude that the prevention of child hood circumcision does not prevent a man from having the procedure latter in life. If I must be forced to declare an age at when circumcision is acceptable I will pick the age of fifteen. I feel as this is more than old enough for the boy to have a good enough understanding of their situation to properly decide how they want to proceed in life.
On September 09 2011 08:11 cyberspace wrote: First of all your OP is EXTREMELY biased against circumcision. Not the best way to start a discussion if we're only get one side of the facts. :/
Secondly, male and female circumcision are two COMPLETELY different things.
No they really aren't one is worse than the other but that doesn't make the base practice different.
I don't want to enter the discussion if circumcision is good or bad but I just laugh when someone brings up the argument that a circumcised penis makes it easier to maintain good hygiene. Pulling the foreskin back and washing the penis when you take a shower is about as hard as lifting your arm to clean your armpit.
On September 09 2011 07:50 Tezzick wrote: Sexual dissatisfaction? Do you know sex just isn't about how you're feeling, but the woman? Every single girl I've been with has said they prefer circumcised to not. (aka cut vs uncut) Plus, based on what my uncircumcised friends tell me, they don't last near as long as circumcised males do. And I don't know about others, but the longer you last, the better your woman feels, the more erotic it gets = more sexual satisfaction. This is purely based on my own personal experiences, but I don't like how biased it seems at how you're trying to convince everyone how terrible circumcision is.
I don't know how much sexual experience you have, but this whole post is ridiculous. Everyone is different. Girls get sore after awhile, therefore your statement about lasting longer doesn't really hold water. Some women like quickies, some like the long drawn out sweaty version. I've had a few girlfriends who say that they prefer UNcut. Don't generalize.
Circumcised people in this thread seem to think that it's some kind of inconvenient nightmare to clean yourself when you're not circumcised. It's really, really not.
It's also baffling to me that "it looks better" is actually an argument. What other kinds of cosmetic surgery do we perform on babies?
And "I don't remember it" doesn't work for me either. I mean, I could punch ten babies in the face and none of them would remember it when they grew up. Still think I'd be arrested for punching babies in the face for no reason.
But yeah, AIDS prevention in Africa is a much better reason for circumcision. Only problem is that it's nearly impossible to convince any fraction of the population to use condoms, never mind perform penis surgery on their newborn babies.
Personally I cant see much reason for or against. It seems like a pretty dumb thing to do unless you have medical issues that lead you to it as a necessary solution. I guess the best reason I can think to be anti-circumcision is that its a waste of medical time. I dont wanna be waiting an extra 10 minutes with busted up hand because some parents feel like mutilating their child without his consent somehow legally.
I find it funny that many people are saying its done with out the babies consent. No duh, its a baby, the parents have the power to give consent to a child under 18. By that logic you cant start school until 18, because you're a minor and cant give consent, and your parents cant give consent either.
I'm not circumcised, although I live on the East coast of the US which makes me a minority. Personally I have nothing against circumcision, as it simply doesn't effect me.
I actually had to be circumcised in High school due to an issue that causes about 8 % of the population to not be able to pull back their forskin. That made shit awkward as hell in high school and I am glad I was able to get it cut sooooo I think the whole anti - circ is pretty dumb.
I don't think circumcision is really an issue at all. Almost all of the arguments for it are health related but when the health issues are investigated (from what I have seen) the benefits are minimal as long as proper care is taken to keep the area clean. The arguments against it are mostly emotional and circumstantial. In fact the only remotely scientific argument I have ever heard against circumcision is that it reduces sensitivity in the head of the penis, but testimonials from people who get circumcised as adults (of which there are many) show that this is simply not true.
If there is scientific evidence that circumcision is bad for a child then I have not seen it and I know for a fact that there are medical benefits. That said, some benefit>no benefit especially if there is no meaningful cost.
I don't understand why circumsized people have some kind of vindicative hatred towards their parents. I was circumsized. I don't remember any pain. I've never had sex with a foreskin (but I can guaruntee I enjoy sex just as much as another man) and I never felt any kind of stigma towards circumsized people. AFAIK most of the people Ive known are circumsized (and no I don't live in some kind of jewish convent, quite the opposite )
In any case, i feel like this is such a non issue that there really isn't any discussion to be had here.
Sounds like bullshit to me, spouted by a very vocal minority (in America at least) that wants to get their way. Cut vs Uncut doesn't make that big of a difference; there are benefits and "drawbacks" to both (I'm cut and see no reason why I shouldn't be; I was not a traumatized child and neither was my brother, and l don't envy people who have to wash inside their foreskin). Basically the point I'm trying to make is that if some parents want it done to their children and others don't and it's *not that fucking big of a deal* why would you go out of your way to persecute people who want their children circumcised? Even if it is wrong, it's more wrong to go around blowing it out of proportion and making it out to be a much bigger issue than it actually is.
I'm circumcised and I prefer it, but it's the only thing I've ever known, though smegma seems pretty disgusting. Really don't think it's too big a deal, there are much more serious procedures or lack thereof that happen without the child's consent.
I feel sorry for you poor bastards with uncircumcised penii. How you ever manage to please a woman I'll never know.
Trolling aside, there are more arguments against than for, but I personally think that it shouldn't be an issue at all. Either way you're going to have to deal with possible enablers for an inferiority complex all through childhood and adolescence, and the state of your penis is not going to have anything to do with any of that. And, as shown by an above poster, there are just as many objective reasons for as there are for against.
50 cents one way, half a dollar the other.
TL;DR: Quit finding things to draw lines in the sand over
On September 09 2011 08:08 gds wrote: Since i cut my feet it doesnt stink anymore.
ahahahahah, I laughed hard on this one. On a side note, I'm 100% sure circumcised penises have less sensitivity in the glan, I just could never wear a underwear in direct contact with my glan's skin. I tried for the experience and I almost cried after 3 minutes. Less sensitive means more stamina on bed, wich is good for your ego, but you have to stop being egoist and look at the statistics that shows that women tends to feel that the sexual act is more painful (and logically so, the clitoris and vagina are VERY sensitive). One the other hand I have to truly agree about the fact that it prevents Phimosis and Smegma. I myself had Phimosis when I was 8, they didn't circumcised me but it I still remember the hurt.
People getting circumcised while they were baby and claim that it doesn't hurt because they don't have memory of it are quite blind folded... Of course you won't have memories of that...
Edit : All the circumcised guys posting here doesn't seem to be bothered by it so I don't really see the big deal. In the other hand we have to be carefull on what we do on babies and young children and maybe waiting for the majority before getting into this type of "prehemptive" procedures.
Also comparing female genital mutilation and circumcision in the same thread is ridiculous. They're done for completely different reasons and is 2000x more traumatic for a female than a male.
FGM is used to make sure that a woman can never have enjoyment from sex and is almost always done with malicious intent in mind.
Circumcision is done because of possible health benefits and less complications.
On September 09 2011 08:12 Harrow wrote: Circumcised people in this thread seem to think that it's some kind of inconvenient nightmare to clean yourself when you're not circumcised. It's really, really not.
It's also baffling to me that "it looks better" is actually an argument. What other kinds of cosmetic surgery do we perform on babies?
And "I don't remember it" doesn't work for me either. I mean, I could punch ten babies in the face and none of them would remember it when they grew up. Still think I'd be arrested for punching babies in the face for no reason.
But yeah, AIDS prevention in Africa is a much better reason for circumcision. Only problem is that it's nearly impossible to convince any fraction of the population to use condoms, never mind perform penis surgery on their newborn babies.
Pretty much what this guy said.
Everyone arguing for this is circumcised people who deosn't care about facts. Just because you're used to it and fine like that doesn't make it acceptable.
On September 09 2011 08:13 Bobanator wrote: I find it funny that many people are saying its done with out the babies consent. No duh, its a baby, the parents have the power to give consent to a child under 18. By that logic you cant start school until 18, because you're a minor and cant give consent, and your parents cant give consent either.
You can drop out of school once you reached 18 / 21. Try getting uncircumcised. Also you seem to be under the impression that apparently parents are allowed to do anything with and to their children untill they reach 18 / 21, no matter how stupid or dangerous. Clearly this is not the case, almost any modern 1st world country will remove a child from your care if you are deemed unfit to raise it or if it is needed to protect the child.
On September 09 2011 08:02 Stropheum wrote: 1: I don't remember my circumcision 2: I'm glad i'm circumcised 3: It's done in a humane way 4: It's more beneficial than having nothing done, easier to maintain good hygiene etc. 5: My penis is still plenty sensitive, and if anything it makes guys last longer during sex, sooooo the sensitivity argument is a little invalid.
Pretty much what I'd say.
And @ inferiority complex? Lol wtf, I doubt there's almost a single circumcised guy who feels that way. If anything, it would be the other way around, just based on being the only guy around who hadn't had it done.
On September 09 2011 08:07 Enki wrote: Dunno how i feel about it personally. I was circumsized at birth so I didn't have a choice, but I have grown to like it. Its alot easier to keep clean, etc. There are alot of advantages to being circumsized
I dont know why people say this. Your dick should be clean no matter what. It's not like you'll get dust on your dick out of nowhere.
My girlfriend thinks my circumcised dick is awesome, so I don't really care, lol. I've never been with a girl who was like "Damn if only you hadn't been circumcised!! t.t"
I think any discussion is useless. If you get it then fine, if not, who cares?
On September 09 2011 07:46 Craton wrote: Why would you count both sides of a playing card? That's such a weird comparison -- it seems heavily slanted to bias the reader into making it think it's 2x the amount.
In fact, the entire OP is entirely one-sided facts and information. I can't take any of it seriously because I have no idea what's blatantly misleading and what's actual truth because you only provide information about one side of the argument and completely dismiss the opposite side.
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all circumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
So, is that not something from the opposite side?
He dismisses that in its entirety. One in a thousand is still 3 million people worldwide, but it talks down the point by saying "(perhaps)" and "a tiny amount." The OP is ridiculously biased.
On September 09 2011 08:02 Stropheum wrote: 1: I don't remember my circumcision 2: I'm glad i'm circumcised 3: It's done in a humane way 4: It's more beneficial than having nothing done, easier to maintain good hygiene etc. 5: My penis is still plenty sensitive, and if anything it makes guys last longer during sex, sooooo the sensitivity argument is a little invalid.
1.Doesn't mean it didn't hurt like hell. 2.How would you know any different if you have been that way your whole life? 3.What's humane and what is not is pretty subjective a lot of times. 4.There's no clear evidence as to whether it is more of less beneficial from having nothing done and besides I don't even get the hygiene argument.If you maintain a good degree of personal hygiene than it doesn't really matter if you are clipped or not. 5.This is true.Only complaint I ever heard from men is that they are TOO sensitive and never the opposite.Being circumcised helps you last longer in bed and doesn't hinder you in any way that i can imagine in the long run during sex.
I'm not against circumcision.I am against having it done to baby's due to being born in a family of certain religion or belief,same as I have a problem with myself being baptised while I was a baby, but that's just my view.
As far as I am concerned,circumcision is mostly a cosmetic procedure(there might be some health benefits but I'm really skeptical about those) and shouldn't be done to minors,even with consent of the parents or if they even demand it. The OP is pretty bias tho with lack of information and sources.
Both sides of the argument are fucking retarded. The only legitimate claim there is, is that it's fucking painful for the baby, who has no choice in a permanently disfiguring surgery. Let us choose if WE want to get circumcised. Solves all the problems.
Also, Diks, if you don't have a memory of a pain, then why does it matter?
There are so many causes to take up in the world. You might as well devote your efforts to preventing Latinos from piercing their baby girls' ears, or the mindless mutilation of hair and fingernails that happens everyday.
On September 09 2011 08:17 Hakker wrote: Also comparing female genital mutilation and circumcision in the same thread is ridiculous. They're done for completely different reasons and is 2000x more traumatic for a female than a male.
FGM is used to make sure that a woman can never have enjoyment from sex and is almost always done with malicious intent in mind.
Circumcision is done because of possible health benefits and less complications.
You should do more research on FGM. The term covers a wide range of procedures including those which are almost directly analogous to male circumcision.
As for them being done for "completely different reasons"... rofl, no
Proponents of FGM and male circumcision justify their preferred form of genital mutilation in exactly the same ways.
Shouldnt really compare male and female circumcision. One is just skin, the other is the equivalent of cutting off half the dick. The other can actually kill people as well.
I don't know why people just let the babies have their uncircumcised penis, and when they grow up, if they want it circumcised, they can. I was circumcised as an infant, but I don't really understand what the problem is lol. All I know is that I would probably prefer it this way, I don't like the idea of a torpedodick.
It just seems like the right answer is "personal preference," except that since we do it to infants, they don't really have much of a say lol.
On September 09 2011 08:00 Frigo wrote: It is genital mutilation and child abuse, no matter how you look at it. It should be illegal to circumcise anyone under 18. End of story.
It should be illegal to circumcise anyone OVER 18. Man, you know how would it hurt when the thing is awake just after the surgery? I have shivers only thinking about it .
I was circumcised when I was... 12-14... I forget, but around that age. Anyway, it was done under local anasthetic, and it was kinda... inconvenient for a week or so afterwards but I wouldn't say it was painful or it hurt in any significant way.
For the record, I don't feel any ill will towards my parents, nor do I feel there's a part of my self that's missing
On September 09 2011 08:00 Frigo wrote: It is genital mutilation and child abuse, no matter how you look at it. It should be illegal to circumcise anyone under 18. End of story.
I think the idea behind certain medical procedures is that it's okay to temporarily hurt a baby if the act will ultimately do more good than harm, i.e. the ends justifying the means. That's why doctors give shots to babies or may need to perform surgeries, and these aren't considered abusive, despite it obviously hurting the children.
The question obviously becomes: Are there enough good reasons to be circumcized?
And on a completely different note, I'm circumcized and don't have an inferiority complex >.> That's just nonsense.
While I can pick out some good information from the OP, I really wish it would have been more objective.
On September 09 2011 08:24 T0fuuu wrote: Shouldnt really compare male and female circumcision. One is just skin, the other is the equivalent of cutting off half the dick. The other can actually kill people as well.
What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
On September 09 2011 08:23 Destro wrote: why do you care so much about other people's penises? keep your mind out of other people's pants..
I don't think the conversation really needs to happen. Feels like a big inferiority complex on both sides of the argument.
Because guys are incredibly insecure about their penises. Size, shape, what they look like. I've never seen a rational internet debate about This subject. It's so dumb.
On September 09 2011 08:23 Mr. Black wrote: Also, Diks, if you don't have a memory of a pain, then why does it matter?
There are so many causes to take up in the world. You might as well devote your efforts to preventing Latinos from piercing their baby girls' ears, or the mindless mutilation of hair and fingernails that happens everyday.
If it doesn't matter to you, can I beat on your kids while they are less than 2 year olds ?? I promise I won't leave any scars and they won't remember me when they'll be 10.
Hmmm well I've been circumcised pretty much all my life and it hasn't given me an inferiority complex. I don't think I've ever met a girl who really gave a shit about whether or not I had a foreskin. I feel like 95% of the time someone brings up this argument they're trolling.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
The only circumsized people responding here are Americans. Is this some sort of mass cultural mutilation?
I've never heard a good thing about circumcision in Europe... I thought it was only done by orthodox Muslims/Jews because of their teachings?
Really, what is the point in mutilating your penis. I don't know about you guys, but I have no trouble pulling back my foreskin under the shower and cleaning it... And seriously, mutilating babies should be illegal, when they're 18 they can decide for themselves.
As some other poster said, it's like cutting off your ears so your head is easier to clean...
i dont know guys ever since i learned i once had a foreskin, ive felt pretty bad about myself.... seriously though i've never even thought about it, so i dont really mind being circumcised. i dont think im any worse off for it, but i guess you never know
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
I prefer a pretty pussy, so I'm going to snip my daughter's labia a little bit.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
I'm not hard against circumcision, but I do wonder why it seems to be practically a standard practice in the US, in certain areas at least. I'm yet to hear a real reason why I would risk my child suffering pain and the complications that can arise from circumcision.
I've debated this with my soon-to-be wife who is American, and she thinks it's just the done thing, but can't really give me any reasons why it's a good thing, although her mother says it looks better o_O
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
That's why the more common term is Female genital mutilation. In come cultures it is or was common.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
They're mostly named similarly for convenience sake.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
The part about laughing is true from the other end as well. It all depends on where you live. If its common to have a circumcision made in the country you are from, of course that becomes the norm, and the other way around
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
It's the politically correct term for "female genital mutilation", I believe.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
They look at is as genital mutilation, which is what male circumcision is, basically. I'm not saying the two are the same scale of damage, not by a long shot, but both involve medically scarring genitalia.
I agree with ToasteR_ I think this is a stupid argument, and there are plenty of bigger "Elephants in the Hospital" than the circumcision debate, and plenty of other instances in any society of "mutilation" for the sake of the culture.
On September 09 2011 08:26 phosphorylation wrote: Good luck trying to convince the other side that his penis is in an inferior form, on the internet no less.
On September 09 2011 08:23 Mr. Black wrote: Also, Diks, if you don't have a memory of a pain, then why does it matter?.
So by this logic, it's ok to drug girls and rape them, since they wont remeber it anyway?
the logic is strong with this one.
Regarding the OP, I'd like to have something to take away from this thread but I can't take anything so biased seriously. Regarding the study illustrating female dissatisfaction with circumcised dicks, I'd note that the study was conducted in Denmark, where probably only 5% of men are circumcised. The minority always gets a bad rap.
The ones who are trying to regrow a foreskin seem like they are the insecure ones... since i guess we are going all psychology up in this bitch
I was circumcised a couple years ago at age 24 and have had sex both before and after. If I ever have a son he will not be getting circumcised at birth. If he wants to later, that's his choice. If I could go back to being uncircumcised, I would.
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
On this note I think most vaginas look abhorrent... I don't mind them thinking that but then again I'm not circumsized but my foreskin isn't super long nor does it cover the whole of my penis so meh.
Also don't get if it's so hard to pull it back during sex I mean gheez.
On September 09 2011 08:36 Sorrows wrote: I was circumcised a couple years ago at age 24 and have had sex both before and after. If I ever have a son he will not be getting circumcised at birth. If he wants to later, that's his choice. If I could go back to being uncircumcised, I would.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
They look at is as genital mutilation, which is what male circumcision is, basically. I'm not saying the two are the same scale of damage, not by a long shot, but both involve medically scarring genitalia.
Well good luck convincing jews that they aren't allowed to circumcise their sons. Or that their parents 'scarred' their genitalia.
On September 09 2011 08:23 Destro wrote: why do you care so much about other people's penises? keep your mind out of other people's pants..
I don't think the conversation really needs to happen. Feels like a big inferiority complex on both sides of the argument.
To be fair, you could tell that to the parents that are pro circumcision, why do they care so much about their kid's penis that he doesn't even get a say in it?
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
They look at is as genital mutilation, which is what male circumcision is, basically. I'm not saying the two are the same scale of damage, not by a long shot, but both involve medically scarring genitalia.
Well good luck convincing jews that they aren't allowed to circumcise their sons. Or that their parents 'scarred' their genitalia.
Well they torture animals because it's "right" whilst even the most rabid orthodox jew doesn't follow half of the 600+ ways a jew should according to the old testament so meh.
On September 09 2011 08:36 Sorrows wrote: I was circumcised a couple years ago at age 24 and have had sex both before and after. If I ever have a son he will not be getting circumcised at birth. If he wants to later, that's his choice. If I could go back to being uncircumcised, I would.
I was waiting for someone who actually know what he's talking about. As an uncircumcised man I can only imagine how it would feel like and circumcised men can only imagine the differences. The step father of my girlfriend also got circumcised last year because of medical reasons. I never really had the chance to ask him how he felt as he seemed quite depressed after the chirurgical intervention.
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
It's a cultural thing.I remember watching some random episode of sex&the city with my girlfriend on tv and she laughed pretty hard when the penis argument came up,because she didn't get what the fuss was all about.They acted as if the dude that was uncircumcised had an STD or something.
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
I think many people from places where circumcision is the norm are incredibly ignorant about uncut penises, they more than likely don't even know you retract the foreskin and the penis looks almost the exact same when erect
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
They look at is as genital mutilation, which is what male circumcision is, basically. I'm not saying the two are the same scale of damage, not by a long shot, but both involve medically scarring genitalia.
Well good luck convincing jews that they aren't allowed to circumcise their sons. Or that their parents 'scarred' their genitalia.
Good luck convincing religious people of a lot of things :p
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
It's a personal preference, and given that people usually prefer things that they're familiar with, it only makes sense that girls who've only seen circumcised penises would prefer them.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
Removing the clitoris, more extreme measures are stitching the vagina shut entirely.
How is that CIRCUMCISION? Circumcision means excising AROUND something. Do people really call that circumcision?!
They look at is as genital mutilation, which is what male circumcision is, basically. I'm not saying the two are the same scale of damage, not by a long shot, but both involve medically scarring genitalia.
Well good luck convincing jews that they aren't allowed to circumcise their sons. Or that their parents 'scarred' their genitalia.
Well they torture animals because it's "right" whilst even the most rabid orthodox jew doesn't follow half of the 600+ ways a jew should according to the old testament so meh.
Killing Kosher implies that the animal experiences as little pain as possible. Where the fuck did you get that Jews torture animals? Are you trolling? What the fuck kind of anti-semitic shit is that? And circumcision is actually kind of an important part of the Jewish religion. Like it's not just another random law in the bible. It's kind of a symbol of the whole 'covenant' thing.
On September 09 2011 08:07 Steel wrote: I was circumcised when I was young because Idk I had too much foreskin and peeing was difficult and messy or something. I never really asked because I don't really care. Most of my childhood, when I asked if I was circumcised I said yes and people laughed. When I asked what was wrong with that, they couldn't answer, and so I laughed. This encouraged people around me to not be afraid to say they are circumcised and not be ashamed about it. Then again when you're a kid you're ashamed of anything you do that ain't what everybody else does. You quickly grow out of it.
Same deal for me. All I remember about circumcision is I missed school for a bit and it hurt like hell, but now? I mean, aesthetically it's probably better without the foreskin. (Looks like a slug o_O) and it's probably easier for girls to give head.
Otherwise I don't really see why it's worth discussing.
I can barely take this one-sided excuse of an OP seriously. I guess it makes for interesting discussion, but don't even try to pretend you're convincing us of anything. The bias is so blatant it hurts.
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
now i'm wondering whether you find the "natural" look on women attractive. armpit hair, moustache fuzz, happy trails, lots of shrubbery.
I just wish the OP had included more about what I think the real issue is, that parents do this without consulting their children. Anyone who is uncircumcised can be circumcised whenever they choose to if that is their preference so robbing them of that decision for no reason and with possible detriment seems just wrong. Performing a cosmetic surgery on infants like many have said is cruel regardless of what the parents like. I wish you would have made the point stronger that it really is abusive towards the child.
On September 09 2011 07:34 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly.
Dude... No...
So it was ok when an older man was doing it to cut off part of his penis? Right.
Just a minor contribution (*rimshot*): I'm circumsized, not Jewish, and personally wouldn't have it any other way. I also have no problem with pleasure during sex. I knew pretty much the same amount of information about the topic/procedure before even reading the OP (besides the arguments for or against) and haven't changed my mind at all.
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
now i'm wondering whether you find the "natural" look on women attractive. armpit hair, moustache fuzz, happy trails, lots of shrubbery.
I'm also curious about the answer to this question from anyone who thinks "it's dumb that people think circumsized is more attractive"
Question: Do circumcised people know that you can 'roll' back the foreskin of the penis (especially easy when the penis is erect), and the uncircumcised penis will look pretty much the same as a circumcised one?
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
stamina is a mental issue more than anything. Uncircumcised males can receive the full pleasure of sex AND last as long as they want given any effort.
Best of both worlds, no blooded bellend as a baby, no continuation of traditions just for old times sake.
edit: @ Karliath
Yep looks pretty much exactly the same, however there's a slight extra thickness due to the extra skin just below the glans which is a little added pleasure for both parties!
Using scare tactics is only OK when you're using it to justify your point of view, I see. Hypocrisy has clearly blinded the author.
There is no attempt to be impartial whatsoever, and I do not see why it has been left open.
Scarred is a perfectly accurate description of a circumcised penis.
Selective reading is the best. It's incredibly obvious the OP wrote the article knowing which he supported, and made no effort to hide his bias. Don't see any point in arguing that.
Why should he hide anything? He's not a fucking journalist writing a front page story.
To be honest, I'm slightly offended by this hilariously biased OP. I'm not going to go into too much detail but I chose circumcision for myself and without it I wouldn't be having much fun in the bedroom, if at all. But yeah, circumcision obviously is devils work in any possible case. WTF man. What's wrong with you?
I can't take this very seriously. Seems a bit biased to one side. Also, I now can have an excuse when I can't please my girlfriend, it's because i have a very desentized
Using scare tactics is only OK when you're using it to justify your point of view, I see. Hypocrisy has clearly blinded the author.
There is no attempt to be impartial whatsoever, and I do not see why it has been left open.
Scarred is a perfectly accurate description of a circumcised penis.
Selective reading is the best. It's incredibly obvious the OP wrote the article knowing which he supported, and made no effort to hide his bias. Don't see any point in arguing that.
Why should he hide anything? He's not a fucking journalist writing a front page story.
Being so biased lowers your credibility. If he wants to actually convince anybody he at least needs to make an attempt to add some neutrality.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
On September 09 2011 08:50 drooL wrote: To be honest, I'm slightly offended by this hilariously biased OP. I'm not going to go into too much detail but I chose circumcision for myself and without it I wouldn't be having much fun in the bedroom, if at all. But yeah, circumcision obviously is devils work in any possible case. WTF man. What's wrong with you?
I think there are two major arguments in this thread, one being circumcision vs. no circumcision, and the other being circumcision at birth vs. personal choice.
On a personal level, if you chose to be circumcised, I honestly dgaf. That's your decision, I respect it, and I hope you are happy with it. People shouldn't care about that, imo. The debate should be whether babies should be circumcised without a choice.
Using scare tactics is only OK when you're using it to justify your point of view, I see. Hypocrisy has clearly blinded the author.
There is no attempt to be impartial whatsoever, and I do not see why it has been left open.
Scarred is a perfectly accurate description of a circumcised penis.
Selective reading is the best. It's incredibly obvious the OP wrote the article knowing which he supported, and made no effort to hide his bias. Don't see any point in arguing that.
Why should he hide anything? He's not a fucking journalist writing a front page story.
He purports to present a factual article about a topic to generate discussion. It is actually borderline propaganda, and has no discussion value. That is the problem.
The one thing that truly pisses me off is how circumcised men at birth claim how great being cut is. How can you tell when you've got no relativity.
Here's my own personal experience. I was circumcised as an adult.
First thing I would like to say is it FUCKING HURTS WOW. I couldn't walk for atleast 2 weeks after. The morning after I awoke to a puddle of blood on my bed that easily went through the sheets and into the mattress. Scared the shit out of me.
I lost alot of sensitivity over time after the surgery but for me that was a good thing. I was way too sensitive before that crossed over to pain at times. Now its less sensitive but all pleasure.
I also found it much cleaner overall. Like in the summers when I was intact all the sweat/sigma created this stink that i hated. I pretty much had to shower 3 times a day but now its never a worry.
Overall I think I do prefer being cut but I will say that If I had a son, I would not have him circumcised. I think its pretty unethnical to perform a surgery on a child thats pretty close to a cosmetic surgery.
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
I think people are getting caught up here - maybe the OP is arguing against circumcision under any circumstances, which IMO is a bit stupid. It's a medical procedure sometimes necessary to help a man with whatever problems he might be experiencing - somtimes a circumcision is necessary for a happier and more fulfilled life. My question is why is circumcision practically an automatic thing in the US?
I understand the religious argument for Jewish people. I'm just waiting for a convincing reason why someone would choose to have their child cut. Is it really just down to a cosmetic reason? Doesn't that worry you that a person could have their child surgically altered and suffer pain simply because 'it looks better' when they are older?
Personally I think circumcision is pretty fucking stupid (obviously I'm not talking about it when it's a necessary medical procedure) but honestly, it's not a big deal. I find it really weird how common it is in the US though. . .I guess it's just a cultural thing to want your kid's penis to look a certain way, but that seems rather odd to me.
This tends to look like a debate of Europe vs America on this forum. I never imagined that so many americans were circumcised :O The "it looks better" factor is just weird... I understand doing it if you're a jew but why would you do it otherwise ? I read that it was usefull 2000 years ago when everybody didn't systematicly have showers and soap but nowadays... cmon.... You can keep your penis clean without surgery. billions of men can attest that. Once again I have nothing against circumcision in itself, just that in our modern society, we can wait for the majority and self decison before doing that
Using scare tactics is only OK when you're using it to justify your point of view, I see. Hypocrisy has clearly blinded the author.
There is no attempt to be impartial whatsoever, and I do not see why it has been left open.
Scarred is a perfectly accurate description of a circumcised penis.
Selective reading is the best. It's incredibly obvious the OP wrote the article knowing which he supported, and made no effort to hide his bias. Don't see any point in arguing that.
Why should he hide anything? He's not a fucking journalist writing a front page story.
Being so biased lowers your credibility. If he wants to actually convince anybody he at least needs to make an attempt to add some neutrality.
Pretty sure it's more to raise awarness than anything. He even says he's biased and he's not pretending he's not if you read the OP.
Whatever he wants to do, people will simply reject his ideas on principle when it is so obviously biased. He if presented the facts as just that, facts, and let people draw their own conclusions, then this would be more successful. By saying "I have an agenda" you give credibility to the idea that everything you say is bullshit because you want to push a point.
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Unfortunately, the OP forgot to mention the actual benefits of circumcision. Medical crocs exist in all fields and always will, one of the latest being "alkaline water". Although there is social pressure involved, I think that at least some parents do some research into risk vs. reward. One such potential risk, and one with unexpectedly high odds, is for the skin that one would have been removed in the procedure "catching" on the penis in some old men, cutting off blood circulation. I have been circumcised, and doing fine with none of the problems listed affecting me.
People defending an irrational cultural tradition because it's tradition. Surprise! You might as well discuss religion. This shows the true face of man.
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Mutilation:
To disfigure by damaging irreparably...
So would you say tattoos and piercings are self-mutiliation?
I personally believe that circumcision should be illegal but I would not go out of my way to do so. I would look at 1000 other issues before I even consider circumcision (unless it is female, that is a whole different issue) A bad economy could kill much more than a a circumcision gone wrong.
That be said, I am one of the very few people in my town that has not been circumcised. And I prefer uncircumcised penises because I thought everyone had the same dick as me for the longest time...plus...it is aesthetically more appealing to me.
But about the aesthetic appeal, would you go to Africa, Bangladesh, or some other very poor nation and would you consider their women to be the ideal women you would put on TV? The appeal to the men is big women are beautiful but here, it is another story so I guess it is how you were raised.
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Mutilation:
To disfigure by damaging irreparably...
So would you say tattoos and piercings are self-mutiliation?
The debate between mutilation vs modification is HUGE. They have freaking documentaries about that stuff. Best to leave it alone and stay on topic as much as possible.
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Mutilation:
To disfigure by damaging irreparably...
So would you say tattoos and piercings are self-mutiliation?
Holes from piercings heal. And tattoos can be removed, but may/will leave som scarring, so no and yes i guess...
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Mutilation:
To disfigure by damaging irreparably...
So would you say tattoos and piercings are self-mutiliation?
Well, in a strict sense they are....
I'm not sure why you find a problem with this. Is it just a question of terminology? We're not trying to say it's bad, it's just the correct term...
Then again, it doesn't really matter in this discussion
On September 09 2011 08:26 phosphorylation wrote: Good luck trying to convince the other side that his penis is in an inferior form, on the internet no less.
This, circumcision debates on the internets don't really make for great discussion.
Personally I don't see how, in 2011, you could justify doing it to babies.
Some people feel the need to get circumcised later in life due to some problems with their foreskin. Perhaps some people would choose to have it done for aesthetic reasons. But taking the choice away from someone due to some bronze-age superstition doesn't seem reasonable.
A circumcised penis looks the same as an uncircumcised one when fully erect and foreskin pulled back. Dunno how some people can say one or the other is nicer looking. Unless you're comparing them when flacid but I'm going to assume women are less interested in limp dicks.
Statue of David was considered the perfect male until times changed and certain people began pushing the idea that a cut penis is nice while the uncut penis is aesthetically nasty. The male ego is a fragile thing especially when it comes to the penis.
On September 09 2011 08:12 Harrow wrote: Circumcised people in this thread seem to think that it's some kind of inconvenient nightmare to clean yourself when you're not circumcised. It's really, really not.
It's also baffling to me that "it looks better" is actually an argument. What other kinds of cosmetic surgery do we perform on babies?
And "I don't remember it" doesn't work for me either. I mean, I could punch ten babies in the face and none of them would remember it when they grew up. Still think I'd be arrested for punching babies in the face for no reason.
These three points very thoroughly win this thread.
Oh, and why does so many of the circumcised posters in this thread completely fly off the rails about the whole claim towards them having inferiority complex? Aggressive posting is not really helping your side of that argument (as that is exactly what someone with an inferiority complex would do.
Btw, I thought the inferiority complex thing was BS.
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Mutilation:
To disfigure by damaging irreparably...
So would you say tattoos and piercings are self-mutiliation?
Holes from piercings heal. And tattoos can be removed, but may/will leave som scarring, so no and yes i guess...
Holes from piercings do not always heal. Tattoos are rarely removed and it's a much more expensive, painful procedure.
It's simply a matter of language. How am I suppose to have a legitimate conversation for why circumcision should be perfectly legal when people are saying that that means I must be for mutilating babies? Like what the hell. This conversation will go nowhere.
On September 09 2011 09:06 SilverLeagueElite wrote: A circumcised penis looks the same as an uncircumcised one when fully erect and foreskin pulled back. Dunno how some people can say one or the other is nicer looking. Unless you're comparing them when flacid but I'm going to assume women are less interested in limp dicks.
Statue of David was considered the perfect male until times changed and certain people began pushing the idea that a cut penis is nice while the uncut penis is aesthetically nasty. The male ego is a fragile thing especially when it comes to the penis.
IMO, I think uncircumcised posters are talking about aesthetics because they don't know/understand how an uncircumcised penis looks/functions.
"The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all circumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)"
I'm just getting back to class, but isn't 73/5400 1.4% rather than 0.014%?
Just here to state my opposition to circumcision. My parents' official reason for circumcising me is cosmetic, which should be illegal by any stretch of the imagination.
On September 09 2011 08:30 Mindcrime wrote: I prefer a pretty pussy, so I'm going to snip my daughter's labia a little bit.
It's just aesthetics man! don't worry about it!
like wtf
Apparently this is perfectly reasonable if it is done to boys not girls.
If I remember correctly, placing any sharp object on a vagina is illegal in the US. I might be remembering this wrong, but there were African immigrants who wanted to meet their religious requirement of female circumcision by pricking the labia with a needle; it was ruled solidly illegal and a form of mutilation.
I got cut a few years back because of phimosis, and I much prefer being circumcised to having a defective foreskin. However, cutting off an infant's foreskin against their will on the off chance that it might have problems makes as much sense as preemptively removing their appendix in case they ever get appendicitis.
On September 09 2011 09:08 pwncakery wrote: "The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all circumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)"
I'm just getting back to class, but isn't 73/5400 1.4% rather than 0.014%?
I don't know about you guys, but F circumcision/no circumcision, it's already gg if the HIV is on my dick.
This is a great OP. After reading up on the topic I don't see any way I could advocate forcing a circumcision onto a child of mine. If that's something they want there would have to either be some fringe medical scenario, or they would have to do it on their own after becoming an adult.
Who am I to mandate onto my son what his genitals should look like. I could no sooner do that than I could mandate breast impants for my daughter.
I've always found the arguments against circumcision (a relatively new phenomenon, I'd like to note) to be complete bullshit - comparisons to genital mutilation are not only untrue, but degrade what that word actually means when applied to what happens to baby girls in certain parts of the world every day.
But what really prompted me to post was OP's assertion that I, as a circumcised male, feel "inferior" because I experience "less" sexual pleasure than uncircumcised men.
So first of all; fuck you, OP, you don't know the first goddamned thing about how I feel in bed, nor my performance in it.
Second of all, I don't think most men would disagree when I said that a certain amount of psychological sexual pleasure is derived from pleasing your partner. Being able to bring a woman to orgasm multiple times is considered a sign of masculinity and verility, and if a circumcision helps me achieve that, then it would actually have the exact opposite effect that OP claims.
You can pull skewed statistics from your ass in argument against circumcision all you want, but when you start claiming that I personally feel inferior for it (or even better, that my father had me circumcised because HE feels inferior) that's a personal attack. You really expect to win people over that way?
On September 09 2011 08:12 Harrow wrote: Circumcised people in this thread seem to think that it's some kind of inconvenient nightmare to clean yourself when you're not circumcised. It's really, really not.
It's also baffling to me that "it looks better" is actually an argument. What other kinds of cosmetic surgery do we perform on babies?
And "I don't remember it" doesn't work for me either. I mean, I could punch ten babies in the face and none of them would remember it when they grew up. Still think I'd be arrested for punching babies in the face for no reason.
These three points very thoroughly win this thread.
Oh, and why does so many of the circumcised posters in this thread completely fly off the rails about the whole claim towards them having inferiority complex? Aggressive posting is not really helping your side of that argument (as that is exactly what someone with an inferiority complex would do.
Btw, I thought the inferiority complex thing was BS.
I thought the inferiority complex thing was completely made up nonsense too, but after reading this thread...i dunno <.<
CMON I'M CIRCUMCISED AND MY GF LOVES IT !!
Kidding but this kind of posts looks like the stereotype of an inferiority complexe...
On September 09 2011 08:52 Giant Squid Thing wrote:
On September 09 2011 08:27 DoubleReed wrote: What is female circumcision?! Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "out little girls" and then say "whether it's a girl or a boy." What?!
Anyway, circumcision is a fundamental part of the Jewish religion. There is only one medical procedure described in the bible and that is circumcision. It is almost entirely a cosmetic procedure. Stop making a big deal out of it.
And where did you get that circumcised men feel inferiority? If anything, it makes it look larger and more robust. In fact, I've heard the opposite. Hell, I know a guy who's girlfriend actually broke out into laughter because she'd never seen an uncircumcised penis before, so he actually asked his mom if he could get circumcised. I have yet to hear of a woman who preferred an uncircumcised penis.
lol???
jesus.. america.. This has to be trolling!
"some random teenage girl doesn't know what a dick looks like, mum... mutilate me"
that cannot have ever fucking happened lol
Yea, it sounded like the most hilariously awkward conversation a teen could have with their mom.
I'm tired of this 'mutilation' jargon though. Complete 100% bullshit scare tactics. There's nothing mutilation-y about circumcision.
Mutilation:
To disfigure by damaging irreparably...
So would you say tattoos and piercings are self-mutiliation?
Holes from piercings heal. And tattoos can be removed, but may/will leave som scarring, so no and yes i guess...
Holes from piercings do not always heal. Tattoos are rarely removed and it's a much more expensive, painful procedure.
It's simply a matter of language. How am I suppose to have a legitimate conversation for why circumcision should be perfectly legal when people are saying that that means I must be for mutilating babies? Like what the hell. This conversation will go nowhere.
Well, then i guess you could call both mutilation. I don't know why i brought it up since it's not that important, but it is what the word means. And i agree with you that this will most likely go nowhere...
Only people who bring up this stupid fucking argument have an inferiority complex. Considering there is a lot of hate towards people who are circumcised from OP's post I am going to assume that the OP is not circumcised and feels so insecure about his sexuality that he makes a post trying to convince people that are circumcised that they are wrong and should look stupid.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages and some girls like or hate the appearance of either one.
Having been with a few girls, only one ever even commented on it. It was her first uncut ever. She said it was "fun to play with" and felt more "alive". I don't know what she meant, exactly, but the point is that not all girls prefer cut. If a girl is so shallow as to care or judge you based on what your penis looks like, then it's a safe bet you probably shouldn't be having sex with her anyway.
No one in this thread is ever going to agree with the other standpoint. No one is ever going to convince anyone. No experiment nor anything posted in this thread has been statistically significant or scientifically valid.
On September 09 2011 08:12 Harrow wrote: Circumcised people in this thread seem to think that it's some kind of inconvenient nightmare to clean yourself when you're not circumcised. It's really, really not.
It's also baffling to me that "it looks better" is actually an argument. What other kinds of cosmetic surgery do we perform on babies?
And "I don't remember it" doesn't work for me either. I mean, I could punch ten babies in the face and none of them would remember it when they grew up. Still think I'd be arrested for punching babies in the face for no reason.
These three points very thoroughly win this thread.
Oh, and why does so many of the circumcised posters in this thread completely fly off the rails about the whole claim towards them having inferiority complex? Aggressive posting is not really helping your side of that argument (as that is exactly what someone with an inferiority complex would do.
Btw, I thought the inferiority complex thing was BS.
I thought the inferiority complex thing was completely made up nonsense too, but after reading this thread...i dunno <.<
Yeah.. the citation for such an inferiority complex existing could simply link back to this thread as far as I'm concerned... the justifications that attempt to rationalize forcing this procedure onto an infant are absurd at best, and malicious at worst. I see dictionary references for the phrases used to describe a circumcision, and only silly insults to depict the appearance of some one natural...
EDIT: To be clear, I don't think the difference is enough to justify the feelings of inferiority being displayed. If you're cut, it's okay, it's not such a big deal, some people think it looks better any way, so just get over it. But don't force that onto your children, let them decide...
On September 09 2011 09:10 SonicTitan wrote: I've always found the arguments against circumcision (a relatively new phenomenon, I'd like to note) to be complete bullshit - comparisons to genital mutilation are not only untrue, but degrade what that word actually means when applied to what happens to baby girls in certain parts of the world every day.
But what really prompted me to post was OP's assertion that I, as a circumcised male, feel "inferior" because I experience "less" sexual pleasure than uncircumcised men.
So first of all; fuck you, OP, you don't know the first goddamned thing about how I feel in bed, nor my performance in it.
Second of all, I don't think most men would disagree when I said that a certain amount of psychological sexual pleasure is derived from pleasing your partner. Being able to bring a woman to orgasm multiple times is considered a sign of masculinity and verility, and if a circumcision helps me achieve that, then it would actually have the exact opposite effect that OP claims.
You can pull skewed statistics from your ass in argument against circumcision all you want, but when you start claiming that I personally feel inferior for it (or even better, that my father had me circumcised because HE feels inferior) that's a personal attack. You really expect to win people over that way?
Inferior may not be the correct thing to say. There is a lot to be said about peoples' unwillingness to admit they have been wronged in the past.
People who go through hazing very often justify it later in life and force others through the hazing process; psychologically some of this has to do with unwillingness to confront bad things that happened in your past - you just pretend that they aren't bad.
I think the same applies to hitting kids (also called spanking).
I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
Though, my uncle had circumcision as an adolescent, and he went through a world of hellish pain...
Maybe the pain affects some people?
And for the women, I heard the prefer circumcised penises because uh... it looks better... ._.'
P.S. I've no idea why girls get circumcised. Is there a religious purpose behind it? Any health benefits? All I know is that circumcised men don't have to deal with smegma, phimosis, piss getting on their foreskin, etc.
On September 09 2011 09:12 MaKfejA wrote: No one in this thread is ever going to agree with the other standpoint. No one is ever going to convince anyone.
A bit off-topic, but I think one of my biggest internet pet peeves in the world is this statement. I think the only people who ever say it are people who are too closed minded to have ever changed their opinion on anything. On what grounds do you assert that "No one is ever going to convince anyone"? Sure, it doesn't happen every single post or even every thread, but that doesn't mean that it never happens.
Is there a difference in friction and lubrication needed? I know that with a foreskin, it slides over and off the the glans. It feels good, as it provides a bit of a buffer for the revealed glans which can be super sensitive. How is it with circumcised men? The glans is fully exposed from the start, which I'd imagine would be potentially uncomfortable in certain situations unless heavily lubricated.
On September 09 2011 09:11 Tippecanoe wrote: It's all about preference.
Indeed, so unless circumcision becomes a medical necessity, how about we let individuals decide for themselves whether they want to be circumcised or not.
"The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all circumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)"
Did anyone notice that the math was completely off? I'm not for or against circumcision but I believe that 73 out of 5400 is around 1.4 percent. Then the OP goes on to say
"Even if the above claim is true, it would require circumcising around 1000 men to protect only one. (source from The Intactivism Pages)"
So if this is true then where did the 73 men out of 5400 come from? Now I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you meant .73 men (god knows how they came up with seven tenths of a man). Now we extrapolate to one million men. Now we've come up with 135 men who were protected from the HIV virus who would have had it without the circumcision. I'd like a response from the OP about his math skills
Honestly there are really good reasons for it and reasons against it, but to say that ALL MEN should not get circumcisions is not correct. In environments where bacteria is rampant and frequent showers in clean water are not possible, a circumcision can be the thing that saves you from a dangerous infection. In first world countries where you have the luxury of taking showers every day, then yes not having a circumcision is a good choice because it increases sexual pleasure. To say that men who do not have circumcisions are somehow better than those without foreskins... well now you're just trying to belittle people. (This coming from a health professions student)
I don't see anything wrong with having it and not having it. I was born and raised in China and moved to America when I was young so I've seen both sides of the argument. The state of my genitalia however is my own business and I suggest everyone else in this thread take my example. When choosing for your child this is a good thing to keep in mind, but in the end the choice comes down to the parents and what their values are.
I'm extremely confused by one thing about this thread: Who gives this much of a shit? If all of this stuff is half as subjective as it seems (on both sides of the argument), combined with the fact that neither side has a legitimate, 100% unarguable and significant benefit to their side, then this seems like such a useless thread.
On September 09 2011 09:11 Tippecanoe wrote: It's all about preference.
Indeed, so unless circumcision becomes a medical necessity, how about we let individuals decide for themselves whether they want to be circumcised or not.
I agree with this. I mean, a lot of people are arguing for or against the merits/detriments of circumcision, but I'm simply arguing against parents deciding for their children.
On September 09 2011 09:16 Tatari wrote: I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
Though, my uncle had circumcision as an adolescent, and he went through a world of hellish pain...
Maybe the pain affects some people?
And for the women, I heard the prefer circumcised penises because uh... it looks better... ._.'
P.S. I've no idea why girls get circumcised. Is there a religious purpose behind it? Any health benefits? All I know is that circumcised men don't have to deal with smegma, phimosis, piss getting on their foreskin, etc.
I've never heard of female genital mutiliation other than as a means of oppression. The idea being that women shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they'll be more faithful that way. I'm not sure if there are other reasons to do it.
On September 09 2011 09:19 TALegion wrote: I'm extremely confused by one thing about this thread: Who gives this much of a shit? If all of this stuff is half as subjective as it seems (on both sides of the argument), combined with the fact that neither side has a legitimate, 100% unarguable and significant benefit to their side, then this seems like such a useless thread.
It's ridiculous that we ritually mutilate babies all the time because of either religion, stupid misconceptions, or cosmetic reasons. Sure, it's not the biggest crisis in the world, but I always try to combat stupidity in all of its forms. Also, no, it's not subjective in the slightest. By the moral standards we generally use to judge all other actions, infant circumcision is pretty objectively wrong.
On September 09 2011 09:18 zylog wrote: Is there a difference in friction and lubrication needed? I know that with a foreskin, it slides over and off the the glans. It feels good, as it provides a bit of a buffer for the revealed glans which can be super sensitive. How is it with circumcised men? The glans is fully exposed from the start, which I'd imagine would be potentially uncomfortable in certain situations unless heavily lubricated.
Whenever I run it is really uncomfortable because my glans is always rubbing against underwear. It doesn't really matter if I wear boxers or briefs although I prefer tight whitey tighties when I run to keep my junk in place.
Sensitivity issues are interesting. Studies tend to show circumcised penises to be less sensitive to pressure, but circumcised men really don't report less pleasure from sex (Unless I am missing something or circumcised men don't know they are screwed because they have never had it the other way around).
Does anything exist on asking men who were circumcised later in life how their sexual pleasure changed?
On September 09 2011 08:21 jdseemoreglass wrote: Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? No thanks. My wife wants to add no thanks as well.
See, this is something I find absolutely retarded.
I was watching an american documentary about circumcision couple of years ago, and they showed a group of women discussing the whole thing. What they said was that they prefered the look of a circumcised penis, and several of them actually said straight out that they thought uncircumcised penises were gross and nasty. What the hell? Like, I don't even know what to say; the natural look of the penis is gross?
now i'm wondering whether you find the "natural" look on women attractive. armpit hair, moustache fuzz, happy trails, lots of shrubbery.
Me personally, I don't mind. I'm not a big fan of how our society is gradually getting more and more shallow, so that girls feel pressured to get breast implants for instance. I think it's fucked up.
But the things you bring up are besides the point of this thread anyway. These aren't things that we do, pretty much irreversibly, to our children when they are infants and have so say in it whatsoever. Hearing these women argue that cutting of the foreskin on an infant boy because they think uncircumcised penises are gross made me want to puke.
On September 09 2011 09:16 Tatari wrote: I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
Though, my uncle had circumcision as an adolescent, and he went through a world of hellish pain...
Maybe the pain affects some people?
And for the women, I heard the prefer circumcised penises because uh... it looks better... ._.'
P.S. I've no idea why girls get circumcised. Is there a religious purpose behind it? Any health benefits? All I know is that circumcised men don't have to deal with smegma, phimosis, piss getting on their foreskin, etc.
I've never heard of female genital mutiliation other than as a means of oppression. The idea being that women shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they'll be more faithful that way. I'm not sure if there are other reasons to do it.
I think 99% of female circumcision is with malicious or warped intents (from a modern western perspective). That being said, the same medical problems brought on by foreskin could hold true for a female and her labia.
This whole conversation has flown off the deep end. When coming into a conversation about such a sensitive (pun intended) issue, one should expect inflammatory arguments on both sides just like we see here. But if you look past the "it looks better" and "its child abuse and mutilation" arguments to see the scientifically founded ones, you get a better idea.
I will reiterate, there ARE medical benefits to circumcision but they are by no means a matter of life and death. There are no scientifically verifiable draw backs to circumcision that I have found (from my medical experience or from this thread) when the procedure is performed correctly.
Make your decision based on these facts (or others I have missed, I am open to studies from impartial researchers), not on "penis power" lol.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
This. Honestly sounds like OP had a chick shit on his hopes and dreams because she finds uncircumcised penises ugly.
On September 09 2011 09:18 zylog wrote: Is there a difference in friction and lubrication needed? I know that with a foreskin, it slides over and off the the glans. It feels good, as it provides a bit of a buffer for the revealed glans which can be super sensitive. How is it with circumcised men? The glans is fully exposed from the start, which I'd imagine would be potentially uncomfortable in certain situations unless heavily lubricated.
Whenever I run it is really uncomfortable because my glans is always rubbing against underwear. It doesn't really matter if I wear boxers or briefs although I prefer tight whitey tighties when I run to keep my junk in place.
Sensitivity issues are interesting. Studies tend to show circumcised penises to be less sensitive to pressure, but circumcised men really don't report less pleasure from sex (Unless I am missing something or circumcised men don't know they are screwed because they have never had it the other way around).
Does anything exist on asking men who were circumcised later in life how their sexual pleasure changed?
Well you'd have to find men that have had sex before and after circumcision AND did not have problems with their foreskin. So, basically you'd need to find a bunch of guys who had a circumcision perform late in life because they either wanted a new look for their penis or because they didn't like showering.
On September 09 2011 09:19 TALegion wrote: I'm extremely confused by one thing about this thread: Who gives this much of a shit? If all of this stuff is half as subjective as it seems (on both sides of the argument), combined with the fact that neither side has a legitimate, 100% unarguable and significant benefit to their side, then this seems like such a useless thread.
It's ridiculous that we ritually mutilate babies all the time because of either religion, stupid misconceptions, or cosmetic reasons. Sure, it's not the biggest crisis in the world, but I always try to combat stupidity in all of its forms. Also, no, it's not subjective in the slightest. By the moral standards we generally use to judge all other actions, infant circumcision is pretty objectively wrong.
^^^ See, this is why I can't stand people saying the word 'mutilate' even if it is technically accurate.
On September 09 2011 09:23 Velocirapture wrote: This whole conversation has flown off the deep end. When coming into a conversation about such a sensitive (pun intended) issue, one should expect inflammatory arguments on both sides just like we see here. But if you look past the "it looks better" and "its child abuse and mutilation" arguments to see the scientifically founded ones, you get a better idea.
I will reiterate, there ARE medical benefits to circumcision but they are by no means a matter of life and death. There are no scientifically verifiable draw backs to circumcision that I have found (from my medical experience or from this thread) when the procedure is performed correctly.
Make your decision based on these facts (or others I have missed, I am open to studies from impartial researchers), not on "penis power" lol.
I agree with the point about aesthetic debate, the "child abuse" factor is still important, imo. Now, I wouldn't call it child abuse per say, but I still believe people should be able to decide for themselves, and not have their parents decide for them.
The scientific aspect is important, but so is the moral aspect.
On September 09 2011 09:18 zylog wrote: Is there a difference in friction and lubrication needed? I know that with a foreskin, it slides over and off the the glans. It feels good, as it provides a bit of a buffer for the revealed glans which can be super sensitive. How is it with circumcised men? The glans is fully exposed from the start, which I'd imagine would be potentially uncomfortable in certain situations unless heavily lubricated.
Whenever I run it is really uncomfortable because my glans is always rubbing against underwear. It doesn't really matter if I wear boxers or briefs although I prefer tight whitey tighties when I run to keep my junk in place.
Sensitivity issues are interesting. Studies tend to show circumcised penises to be less sensitive to pressure, but circumcised men really don't report less pleasure from sex (Unless I am missing something or circumcised men don't know they are screwed because they have never had it the other way around).
Does anything exist on asking men who were circumcised later in life how their sexual pleasure changed?
Well you'd have to find men that have had sex before and after circumcision AND did not have problems with their foreskin. So, basically you'd need to find a bunch of guys who had a circumcision perform late in life because they either wanted a new look for their penis or because they didn't like showering.
Yeah, they would need to have had healthy sex with a functioning penis prior to circumcision.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Women expect circumcised penises most of the time. I know girls that freaked out the first time they saw one that wasn't. And the guy above me has a good point. Personally I could care less about my sexual satisfaction. I more preoccupied that she gets what she wants .
TLDR 1)Look better 2)May null your satisfaction, but if that's what it takes to make the ladies happy so be it. And personally I who am circumcised feel confident. 3)Easier to clean. If we were in the desert you would die first from infection
On September 09 2011 09:19 TALegion wrote: I'm extremely confused by one thing about this thread: Who gives this much of a shit? If all of this stuff is half as subjective as it seems (on both sides of the argument), combined with the fact that neither side has a legitimate, 100% unarguable and significant benefit to their side, then this seems like such a useless thread.
It's ridiculous that we ritually mutilate babies all the time because of either religion, stupid misconceptions, or cosmetic reasons. Sure, it's not the biggest crisis in the world, but I always try to combat stupidity in all of its forms. Also, no, it's not subjective in the slightest. By the moral standards we generally use to judge all other actions, infant circumcision is pretty objectively wrong.
They aren't misconceptions until they're objective fact, as presented by undeniable science. Until one side is right by that standard, both sides are unable to be right. By my understanding, the baby (unless poorly done) doesn't feel much, if any pain.
P.S. As long as you, "Try to combat stupidity in all of its forms," in order for it to, "Mutilation," it'd have to objectively degrade the appearance. Seeing as you listed one of the reason for people doing it as, "cosmetic reason," it seems improper to call it degrading to the appearance.
The inactivism pages aren't exactly... objective... you know...
Also, a big reason why circumcision became popular in the old ages was because with a severe lack of... well... bathing, and low understanding of how to properly bathe, infections that are nearly non-factors today were tremendous blights. Circumcision was an easy way to simplify cleaning from an early age.
On September 09 2011 09:16 Tatari wrote: I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
Though, my uncle had circumcision as an adolescent, and he went through a world of hellish pain...
Maybe the pain affects some people?
And for the women, I heard the prefer circumcised penises because uh... it looks better... ._.'
P.S. I've no idea why girls get circumcised. Is there a religious purpose behind it? Any health benefits? All I know is that circumcised men don't have to deal with smegma, phimosis, piss getting on their foreskin, etc.
I've never heard of female genital mutiliation other than as a means of oppression. The idea being that women shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they'll be more faithful that way. I'm not sure if there are other reasons to do it.
I think 99% of female circumcision is with malicious or warped intents (from a modern western perspective). That being said, the same medical problems brought on by foreskin could hold true for a female and her labia.
Female Circumcision is not the removal of the labia, but the removal of the clitoris. Its like chopping the head off your dick.
Why're so many people generalising what 'women' think? Women do have thoughts and opinions on what they like and can or can not enjoy and if you live in a country where the majority of people are/aren't circumcised, you're likely to find people who are/aren't accustomed to appearance.
Alot of the replies are going in circles, with the majority of the irrational posts with pro circumcision get shot down but then the same point gets made a page later.
I really dislike the notion of child genital mutilation as being widely socialy acceptable (especially in a prominant western country... so mind boggling), the thread is summed up by the lone 1 unbiased voice.
On September 09 2011 08:36 Sorrows wrote: I was circumcised a couple years ago at age 24 and have had sex both before and after. If I ever have a son he will not be getting circumcised at birth. If he wants to later, that's his choice. If I could go back to being uncircumcised, I would.
I feel bad for you, I'm guessing you had a medical reason for doing so. If not, I feel bad for you being brainwashed into doing so.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Women expect circumcised penises most of the time. I know girls that freaked out the first time they saw one that wasn't. And the guy above me has a good point. Personally I could care less about my sexual satisfaction. I more preoccupied that she gets what she wants .
TLDR 1)Look better 2)May null your satisfaction, but if that's what it takes to make the ladies happy so be it. And personally I who am circumcised feel confident. 3)Easier to clean. If we were in the desert you would die first from infection
I don't want to legitimate this statistics because I don't know the conditions of the real study but looking at the results won't hurt when you actually don't know the answers But it seems that women tends to find the sexual act more painful
On September 09 2011 09:16 Tatari wrote: I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
Though, my uncle had circumcision as an adolescent, and he went through a world of hellish pain...
Maybe the pain affects some people?
And for the women, I heard the prefer circumcised penises because uh... it looks better... ._.'
P.S. I've no idea why girls get circumcised. Is there a religious purpose behind it? Any health benefits? All I know is that circumcised men don't have to deal with smegma, phimosis, piss getting on their foreskin, etc.
I've never heard of female genital mutiliation other than as a means of oppression. The idea being that women shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they'll be more faithful that way. I'm not sure if there are other reasons to do it.
I think 99% of female circumcision is with malicious or warped intents (from a modern western perspective). That being said, the same medical problems brought on by foreskin could hold true for a female and her labia.
Female Circumcision is not the removal of the labia, but the removal of the clitoris. Its like chopping the head off your dick.
ffs people, FGM and female circumcision are terms that cover a wide variety of practices.
On September 09 2011 09:16 Tatari wrote: I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
Though, my uncle had circumcision as an adolescent, and he went through a world of hellish pain...
Maybe the pain affects some people?
And for the women, I heard the prefer circumcised penises because uh... it looks better... ._.'
P.S. I've no idea why girls get circumcised. Is there a religious purpose behind it? Any health benefits? All I know is that circumcised men don't have to deal with smegma, phimosis, piss getting on their foreskin, etc.
I've never heard of female genital mutiliation other than as a means of oppression. The idea being that women shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they'll be more faithful that way. I'm not sure if there are other reasons to do it.
I think 99% of female circumcision is with malicious or warped intents (from a modern western perspective). That being said, the same medical problems brought on by foreskin could hold true for a female and her labia.
Female Circumcision is not the removal of the labia, but the removal of the clitoris. Its like chopping the head off your dick.
No, there are several different forms of FGM, or however else you want to call it. Some involve cutting off the labia, some involve sewing up most of the vagina opening, and some involve the cutting of the clitoris, etc.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Women expect circumcised penises most of the time. I know girls that freaked out the first time they saw one that wasn't. And the guy above me has a good point. Personally I could care less about my sexual satisfaction. I more preoccupied that she gets what she wants .
TLDR 1)Look better 2)May null your satisfaction, but if that's what it takes to make the ladies happy so be it. And personally I who am circumcised feel confident. 3)Easier to clean. If we were in the desert you would die first from infection
I don't want to legitimate this statistics because I don't know the conditions of the real study but looking at the results won't hurt when you actually don't know the answers But it seems that women tends to find the sexual act more painful
Yeah i wouldn't trust the OPs "stats" Anyone can make a graph on Excel. And how exactly wou it make it "painful", or "less satisfactory"?
If you note the OPs sources their all from 1 site. I could buy a domain right now, put up a ton of crap and publish it. Doesn't make it true. I could make up fake stats or even just test a few people. I could even ask leading questions in order to produce biased answers.
On September 09 2011 09:16 Tatari wrote: I've asked my mom several times about when I was circumcised as a baby. she said I didn't even notice it. *snip*, done.
My morbid curiosity drove me to seek out photos and videos of circumcisions in progress. I was left with the impression that was a bit more involved than *snip*, done. The foreskin has several nerve receptors and from the sounds of the wailing, the circumcision was probably done without anesthesia. Not an experience to be forgotten soon. Through adult years, people say they have no recollection of it. Understandable - Personally, I would consciously try to shut out memories of it. A significant portion of your sexual organ is being removed, after all.
I wish I never read this thread... I am now looking at my penis longingly, thinking what could be.
I'm glad I read this on the other hand. When I have a child I'll be sure not to circumcise him/her, barring the mother isn't a total tard. However, if it's true that we are attracted to women like our own mothers...well, let's just say I'm not in luck.
Nothing bad meant to anyone who actually does believe circumcision is best. All preference I guess.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Women expect circumcised penises most of the time. I know girls that freaked out the first time they saw one that wasn't. And the guy above me has a good point. Personally I could care less about my sexual satisfaction. I more preoccupied that she gets what she wants .
TLDR 1)Look better 2)May null your satisfaction, but if that's what it takes to make the ladies happy so be it. And personally I who am circumcised feel confident. 3)Easier to clean. If we were in the desert you would die first from infection
I don't want to legitimate this statistics because I don't know the conditions of the real study but looking at the results won't hurt when you actually don't know the answers But it seems that women tends to find the sexual act more painful
Yeah i wouldn't trust the OPs "stats" Anyone can make a graph on Excel. And how exactly wou it make it "painful", or "less satisfactory"?
If you note the OPs sources their all from 1 site. I could buy a domain right now, put up a ton of crap and publish it. Doesn't make it true. I could make up fake stats or even just test a few people. I could even ask leading questions in order to produce biased answers.
Furthermore, those 'statistics' were gathered in Denmark, where ~5% of men are circumcised. This could be why females don't feel satisfied by a cut dick. Their man isn't 'normal' to them. In the US, conversely, we see some female bias against uncut dicks.
Ultimately I feel it is fair for parents to be able to make this decision for their kid as long as there is no ill intent and sufficient relevant evidence that the harms outweigh the benefits has not manifested itself.
My justification is that it is a parental right to make decisions concerning the well-being of their child barring exceptional circumstances
You sir should become a reporter for fox news because you bias reporting is perfect there. Many of the things u said about circumcision are completely wrong 1) inferiority complex what??? 2)callousses and irritation part completely wrong
this thread was meant to get rid of myths about circumcision but instead it just spread more myths
On September 09 2011 09:35 Zzoram wrote: Women only expect circumcised penises in America. Most other countries don't do it except for rare medical conditions.
Truth.
As far as the issue of pleasing the other gender goes.. how can you say an uncut dude has a harder time pleasing his woman or making her orgasm several times? (or vice versa for that matter) Have you never had sex or something?
Different women have different requirements for reaching sexual climax - hell, I've figured out my wife and can make her orgasm about 3 times in 5 minutes just by hitting the right angle and tempo, and I certainly dont have any issues lasting 5x as much if necessary. Its not a damn linear scale that goes something like.. 5 minutes of pounding=1 orgasm.
What I don't understand is this: what is the big deal? It's not like circumcised people are trying to mandate it or anything, it's the so-called intactivists who are trying to ban it for reasons which are flimsy at best just because they've decided to make it their personal crusade. This whole issue is absolutely ridiculous; the foreskin is about as worthwhile as the appendix.
gee, you would think there would be more complaints about mutilating genital parts. must be a big deal... it just took a couple thousand years for anyone to notice. They say so in the op.
On September 09 2011 09:28 GinDo wrote: Women expect circumcised penises most of the time.
Totally depends where you are from. This may be true in the states but I believe that there are fewer circumcised men UK than uncircumcised.
Almost all of Europe, Asia and South-America is uncircumcised.
Circumcision is only common in parts of Africa, the US, Indonesia, the middle-east and, for some reason, South-Korea.
Something like 15-30% of men around the world are circumcised, and it's most prevalent among Americans and Muslims.. I think we've found common ground!
On September 09 2011 09:35 Zzoram wrote: Women only expect circumcised penises in America. Most other countries don't do it except for rare medical conditions.
Truth.
As far as the issue of pleasing the other gender goes.. how can you say an uncut dude has a harder time pleasing his woman or making her orgasm several times? (or vice versa for that matter) Have you never had sex or something?
Different women have different requirements for reaching sexual climax - hell, I've figured out my wife and can make her orgasm about 3 times in 5 minutes just by hitting the right angle and tempo, and I certainly dont have any issues lasting 5x as much if necessary. Its not a damn linear scale that goes something like.. 5 minutes of pounding=1 orgasm.
uncut btw
Damn if only I were uncut I'm sure I could please my woman AT LEAST that much. Sex for us cut people must be like weight training in a high gravity low oxygen environment
Edit: I read again and realized you probably didn't mean anything silly by adding you were uncut. Still though...
I belive I read male genital mutilation in the US is mainly to 1800-1900 belief that it would reduce masturbation, a horrible sin. If you want to, go ahead and do it when your 18+ and its your own chooice but don't do it on infants that have no chooice.
Abit of youtubing lead me to a bullshit episode ^^
After seeing this, so yeah, you have a $ 400M industry that realy want you to cut dicks so they can sell the leftover foreskin to be put to use in plastic surgery. wow, first you get them to pay you to get rid of it, then you sell it to others. Thats a pretty decent way to run a business.
I'm still going to have my child circumcised. I'm part Jewish and it just looks aesthetically better (in my opinion and my girlfriend's).
I just wish my father didn't take pictures of my circumcision. I didn't know what it was when I was a kid looking through these photos, but when I was told what it was, I took a deeper look.
God, I'm so traumatized by myself. No pictures of my younger brother, only of his first son...
On September 09 2011 09:28 GinDo wrote: Women expect circumcised penises most of the time.
Totally depends where you are from. This may be true in the states but I believe that there are fewer circumcised men UK than uncircumcised.
Almost all of Europe, Asia and South-America is uncircumcised.
Circumcision is only common in parts of Africa, the US, Indonesia, the middle-east and, for some reason, South-Korea.
Something like 15-30% of men around the world are circumcised, and it's most prevalent among Americans and Muslims.. I think we've found common ground!
"Stop killing each other, can't you see you have the same kinds of penises?"
On September 09 2011 09:54 gogogadgetflow wrote: Damn if only I were uncut I'm sure I could please my woman AT LEAST that much. Sex for us cut people must be like weight training in a high gravity low oxygen environment
...Seriously? Do I need to bold the part where I say ''or vice versa'' in regards to performance in bed in cut vs uncut?
I was responding to the continued claims that somehow, uncut men cant last as long in bed, or that they somehow cant please their women as well as cut males. My claim being that being circumcised or not has nothing to do with it.
Please read the entire post before your ego gets too hurt and you hit that reply button =/
On September 09 2011 09:51 Saraf wrote: What I don't understand is this: what is the big deal? It's not like circumcised people are trying to mandate it or anything, it's the so-called intactivists who are trying to ban it for reasons which are flimsy at best just because they've decided to make it their personal crusade. This whole issue is absolutely ridiculous; the foreskin is about as worthwhile as the appendix.
Except that many of them are forcing it on individuals? It's not like they're asking for their infant's consent before cutting his genitals.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Women expect circumcised penises most of the time. I know girls that freaked out the first time they saw one that wasn't. And the guy above me has a good point. Personally I could care less about my sexual satisfaction. I more preoccupied that she gets what she wants .
TLDR 1)Look better 2)May null your satisfaction, but if that's what it takes to make the ladies happy so be it. And personally I who am circumcised feel confident. 3)Easier to clean. If we were in the desert you would die first from infection
I don't want to legitimate this statistics because I don't know the conditions of the real study but looking at the results won't hurt when you actually don't know the answers But it seems that women tends to find the sexual act more painful
Yeah i wouldn't trust the OPs "stats" Anyone can make a graph on Excel. And how exactly wou it make it "painful", or "less satisfactory"?
If you note the OPs sources their all from 1 site. I could buy a domain right now, put up a ton of crap and publish it. Doesn't make it true. I could make up fake stats or even just test a few people. I could even ask leading questions in order to produce biased answers.
Ultimately I feel it is fair for parents to be able to make this decision for their kid as long as there is no ill intent and sufficient relevant evidence that the harms outweigh the benefits has not manifested itself.
My justification is that it is a parental right to make decisions concerning the well-being of their child barring exceptional circumstances
And you dont think cutting off part of a guys penis is an exceptional circumstance? That just blows my mind.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
TERRIBLE thread. What is this even doing on Team Liquid? Who says to themself: "Hmm I want to spread my anti-circumcision propaganda. Which website should I do it on? OH I know! Teamliquid.net, a starcraft website. Perfect."
Edit: Yes I realize that this is the general forum, however, I don't think that propaganda belongs here. I mean I guess there's no rules against it, but it just feels dirty.
On September 09 2011 10:00 MichaelDonovan wrote: TERRIBLE thread. What is this even doing on Team Liquid? Who says to themself: "Hmm I want to spread my anti-circumcision propaganda. Which website should I do it on? OH I know! Teamliquid.net, a starcraft website. Perfect."
On September 09 2011 09:33 Dalguno wrote: I thought this was going to be about an elephant being circumcised, oh boy.
Same, I kinda did that "wtf?" rage face @ the title.
Interesting thread made me think about something that is a part of me that I never have before. I'm circumcised and never really paid any attention to it. Since it seems to matter, I'm American too. No women I've been with even mentioned anything about it. It was done while I was a baby. Maybe it was painful, I dunno, not like I remember.
There have been times during sex when I simply could not finish the job and had to fake it. Then move onto something else quickly until the boner goes away. Wonder if the lower sensitivity is why. I chalked it up to the other person just being a boring lay. Though I wouldn't know how sensitive not being circumcised is in the first place. Learn something new every day.
On September 09 2011 09:18 zylog wrote: Is there a difference in friction and lubrication needed? I know that with a foreskin, it slides over and off the the glans. It feels good, as it provides a bit of a buffer for the revealed glans which can be super sensitive. How is it with circumcised men? The glans is fully exposed from the start, which I'd imagine would be potentially uncomfortable in certain situations unless heavily lubricated.
Gotta make sure the girl is wet and her giving a little oral first helps as well. But if she's set on starting sex right away without foreplay then a little lube is required. Up until reading the first post in this thread I thought all this was normal. So do you uncut dudes just plunge right in?
I don't see any obvious scarring. Though the skin tone is slightly different(more white) where it was cut I guess.
Whatevs
My parents are very right wing christian/religious. I'm sure it was done for that and for sanitary reasons. And although I despise Abrahamic religions I'm not using this as a way to talk smack about them.
On September 09 2011 10:00 MichaelDonovan wrote: TERRIBLE thread. What is this even doing on Team Liquid? Who says to themself: "Hmm I want to spread my anti-circumcision propaganda. Which website should I do it on? OH I know! Teamliquid.net, a starcraft website. Perfect."
What makes you say he's against anti-circumcision?
Maybe he's just informing or debunking some old myths.
On September 09 2011 10:00 MichaelDonovan wrote: TERRIBLE thread. What is this even doing on Team Liquid? Who says to themself: "Hmm I want to spread my anti-circumcision propaganda. Which website should I do it on? OH I know! Teamliquid.net, a starcraft website. Perfect."
What makes you say he's against anti-circumcision?
Maybe he's just informing or debunking some old myths.
On September 09 2011 09:51 Saraf wrote: What I don't understand is this: what is the big deal? It's not like circumcised people are trying to mandate it or anything, it's the so-called intactivists who are trying to ban it for reasons which are flimsy at best just because they've decided to make it their personal crusade. This whole issue is absolutely ridiculous; the foreskin is about as worthwhile as the appendix.
Except that many of them are forcing it on individuals? It's not like they're asking for their infant's consent before cutting his genitals.
So don't have your kid's foreskin removed (also: parents have the authority *by law* to make medical decisions on behalf of their children; I seriously doubt the portion of the populace that resents their parents for it is significant at all). It is not your business what medical decisions other parents make for their children so long as they do not harm the child (and circumcision, while painful for about 10 minutes for a infant, does not). It's way less painful to have it done as an infant than to have it done as an adult, and it's mandated by both judaism and islam; to ban it is to effectively persecute followers of those religions. Are you willing to infringe on their freedom of religion for something so basically unimportant?
Well I honestly can't take your presentation seriously because of the bullshit you made up about an inferiority complex. If you want to present a fundamentally sound argument based on research and statistics then leave your subjective opinions which have no basis out of it. Also cite where you found the statistics rather than just throwing up a chart with absolutely no source. For all we know the source of those charts is extremely biased or their methodology is flawed. If it was a study then we want to read the study and ensure there aren't any other circumstances that might skew the data or even give a proper statistical representation.
I don't really care to defend or oppose circumcision. I am circumcised. I've never had any problems of discomfort. I am sexually satisfied. I have great function, sensitivity and stamina. I am confident about myself and my performance. I've never had a partner complain about discomfort due to it being circumcised. I'll never know what it's like to be uncircumcised so I don't really care, nor do I feel like I am missing something, or feel like I had something stolen from me without consent.
One thing I will say however, if you're having trouble with function and sensitivity and masturbate frequently this could be your problem before you go and blame it on circumcision. http://www.curedeathgrip.com/about.html (NSFW due to the fact there's a banner advertising fleshlights at the bottom of the "What is deathgrip syndrome" page which actually depicts a girl using one on a man. Ad-block did not prevent it.).
Needs more citations of actual research. For god's sake don't people know what google scholar is?
I mean, I actually agree with most of the statements made, and I'd certainly never be circumcised or have anyone in my power circumcised, any more than I'd have my name tatooed across their arse.
If someone grows up and wants the snip for whatever reason, power to them
If someone has a medical condition that circumcision is shown to alleviate (phimosis, as has been noted, there are others as well), then correctional surgery is justified so long as the subject is willing if they're of an age to be able to make reasoned decisions about their own safety (4-5 and up?), or by consent of their guardians if not.
These are the only circumstances in which I can see it being justified. I cannot even imagine how arguing contrary to this is possible. Even for the argument that doing it wholesale for the prevention of disease is retarded. We don't enforce the wearing of condoms, and that's a far less drastic (and more effective) measure than pre-emptive surgery. What next, justifying the involuntary surgical sterilisation of the male population as birth control? If a person makes the choice of their own volition, without the application of pressure or blackmail, then great.
If anyone believes circumcision is justified in any case other than the above two, would you care to elaborate and justify? Because I'd really love to hear a decent argument on the topic.
This image will differentiate the two. It's not real pictures, but it's still NSFW + Show Spoiler +
HAHAHAHA rofl sorry im so immature
on topic i got 4 close friends i see reguarrly and they are all circumcised and they all think they are so much better thenme becausae of it lol. i think they all idiots for caring
doctors worldwide believe it is much healthier to be circumcised. Activists worldwide believe there is no difference. Then what's the big deal if we just circumsize everyone? The issue definitely doesn't warrant such ridiculous posts as this one is...
The OP spreads a lot misinformation about circumcision and uses persuasion methods else often found on FOX news... - comparing male circumcision to female circumcision (which is found under 'Female genital mutilation' on wikipedia) is plain wrong since the later has no benefits whatsoever and only leads to life-long problems and sometimes to life-threatening conditions. - the depiction of the size of the area that's being cut off is misleading (counting both sides of the skin? Really!?) - 'This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal.' No, just no. Honestly, this reduces the credibility of the whole OP extremely.
However, I completely agree with the main point of the OP. Circumcision in this day and age is simply wrong. It is not needed, since it barely adds any benefits. When saying that it is prevents phimosis and similar problems, one should also notice that it adds risks during and post operation. The hygiene issue is also neglectable, since it's possible to keep the same hygiene with just tiny effort for uncircumcised men. Additionally, circumcised penises are less sensitive... Ultimatelly, I ask myself why should we put infants through so much pain, which doesn't offer them anything beneficial later on?
Also:
On September 09 2011 10:13 LXR wrote: doctors worldwide believe it is much healthier to be circumcised. Activists worldwide believe there is no difference. Then what's the big deal if we just circumsize everyone? The issue definitely doesn't warrant such ridiculous posts as this one is...
Doctors worldwide believe it is much healthier to be circumcised if you live in the slums of some sub-saharan city. Else it doesn't matter much unless you religiously decline to shower ever.
On September 09 2011 09:51 Saraf wrote: What I don't understand is this: what is the big deal? It's not like circumcised people are trying to mandate it or anything, it's the so-called intactivists who are trying to ban it for reasons which are flimsy at best just because they've decided to make it their personal crusade. This whole issue is absolutely ridiculous; the foreskin is about as worthwhile as the appendix.
Except that many of them are forcing it on individuals? It's not like they're asking for their infant's consent before cutting his genitals.
So don't have your kid's foreskin removed (also: parents have the authority *by law* to make medical decisions on behalf of their children; I seriously doubt the portion of the populace that resents their parents for it is significant at all). It is not your business what medical decisions other parents make for their children so long as they do not harm the child (and circumcision, while painful for about 10 minutes for a infant, does not). It's way less painful to have it done as an infant than to have it done as an adult,
Infant circumcision is as valid a medical procedure as a preemptive appendectomy. And I obviously disagree with the law.
and it's mandated by both judaism and islam; to ban it is to effectively persecute followers of those religions. Are you willing to infringe on their freedom of religion for something so basically unimportant?
Followers of Huitzilopochtli sacrificed humans. If I became a worshiper of Huitzilopochtli would I be allowed to sacrifice people, or would you "persecute" me?
Insofar as freedom of religion is a part of the broader freedom of thought, I support it absolutely. Mutilating others without their consent, however, falls well outside those bounds.
My parents are devout chrisitians, so they had me circumcised right after birth. I'm actually glad they did, because my older brother had his during his high-school days, and the pain almost killed him. Just imagine having a boner after getting circumcised. Gives me shivers.
On September 09 2011 09:56 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm still going to have my child circumcised. I'm part Jewish and it just looks aesthetically better (in my opinion and my girlfriend's).
I just wish my father didn't take pictures of my circumcision. I didn't know what it was when I was a kid looking through these photos, but when I was told what it was, I took a deeper look.
God, I'm so traumatized by myself. No pictures of my younger brother, only of his first son...
...
ugh
How much time do you plan on spending looking at your sons penis? I bet it won't be as much time as him, so why not let him decide?
On September 09 2011 10:00 MichaelDonovan wrote: TERRIBLE thread. What is this even doing on Team Liquid? Who says to themself: "Hmm I want to spread my anti-circumcision propaganda. Which website should I do it on? OH I know! Teamliquid.net, a starcraft website. Perfect."
Hi. You must be new to the general forum.
The general forum is like an orbital public bathroom in that all people do here is shit on each other while pretending like it's some kind of incredible fun the uninitiated can never understand.
On September 09 2011 10:21 Telcontar wrote: My parents are devout chrisitians, so they had me circumcised right after birth.
huh? Which denomination? Did they also forbid you from eating shellfish and pork or wearing a garment made of two different fibers?
Hahahaha fortunately, no. They're methodists, but as with most christians, they take some things from the bible more seriously than others. I'm not 100% sure they did it purely for religious reasons though, since my older brother wasn't circumcised at birth. Perhaps they did it for the perceived health reasons. I should ask them about it next time I talk to them.
Hmm well circumcision makes you more likely to have ED as you get older so that's one more negative...
What exactly are the positives of circumcision? Easier to clean and better looking...? One is as simple as pulling the skin back in the shower (if your too lazy to do that I'm assuming your not gonna be aesthetically appeasing anyways...) and when pulled back it looks essentially the same. Oh and the 0.1% chance of penile cancer or the 1/1000 chance of stopping HIV are really not that compelling at all...
I keep my dick clean, I don't have a problem lasting to satisfying my girl and I know I'm not losing out on the most sensitive part of my penis making sex on my end much much better. I'm aware my anonymous post doesn't mean shit but personally I'm really happy with my ant eater and all these problems that are spouted in favor of circumcision I have never had an issue with.
I don't like the idea of parents choosing to cut off a piece of a child while he has no say in the matter. It seems wrong to me that you would make such a huge choice for him especially when it's irreversible and it clearly causes pain in the child. Let them get to 18 and then have them choose after they have had a foreskin for a test drive.
p.s. If the OP is so one sided how about you post some different sources that will show statistics that say other wise perhaps instead of just whining about it?
On September 09 2011 08:12 Harrow wrote: Circumcised people in this thread seem to think that it's some kind of inconvenient nightmare to clean yourself when you're not circumcised. It's really, really not.
It's also baffling to me that "it looks better" is actually an argument. What other kinds of cosmetic surgery do we perform on babies?
And "I don't remember it" doesn't work for me either. I mean, I could punch ten babies in the face and none of them would remember it when they grew up. Still think I'd be arrested for punching babies in the face for no reason.
These three points very thoroughly win this thread.
Oh, and why does so many of the circumcised posters in this thread completely fly off the rails about the whole claim towards them having inferiority complex? Aggressive posting is not really helping your side of that argument (as that is exactly what someone with an inferiority complex would do.
Btw, I thought the inferiority complex thing was BS.
I thought the inferiority complex thing was completely made up nonsense too, but after reading this thread...i dunno <.<
CMON I'M CIRCUMCISED AND MY GF LOVES IT !!
Kidding but this kind of posts looks like the stereotype of an inferiority complexe...
Heh, any GF is gonna tell her BF that he's the best she ever had. You could last 15 mins or you could go for 45; you could go for 2 rounds or you could go for 4, who gives a shit as long as you're enjoying yourself?
My personal stance on circumcision is that it should be performed for medical purposes only.
There would have to be some pretty immediate medical benefits for me to want to go out and get a circumcision done as an adult. That's just insane.
I am grateful that it was done when I wouldn't remember any of it. My circumcision didn't hurt at all, as far as I know. I was a fucking baby. Maybe there are some people out there who can remember their own birth and aren't bullshitting, but I have to assume that's pretty rare.
On September 09 2011 09:56 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm still going to have my child circumcised. I'm part Jewish and it just looks aesthetically better (in my opinion and my girlfriend's).
I just wish my father didn't take pictures of my circumcision. I didn't know what it was when I was a kid looking through these photos, but when I was told what it was, I took a deeper look.
God, I'm so traumatized by myself. No pictures of my younger brother, only of his first son...
...
ugh
How much time do you plan on spending looking at your sons penis? I bet it won't be as much time as him, so why not let him decide?
On September 09 2011 09:56 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm still going to have my child circumcised. I'm part Jewish and it just looks aesthetically better (in my opinion and my girlfriend's).
I just wish my father didn't take pictures of my circumcision. I didn't know what it was when I was a kid looking through these photos, but when I was told what it was, I took a deeper look.
God, I'm so traumatized by myself. No pictures of my younger brother, only of his first son...
...
ugh
How much time do you plan on spending looking at your sons penis? I bet it won't be as much time as him, so why not let him decide?
I honestly don't give a shit about what you choose to do to the genitalia of any of your children, I just thought that was an odd reason
For many years, as I clean them as children. His girlfriend will too, very likely.
Not sure why you want to know.
Ok I'll try to explain what the gentleman tried to say : Why don't you let your son take that decision instead of you ? Because don't tell me you're gonna circumcise your son only because it looks better when you're changing his diapers.
Edit : I'm also very curious about the fact that you seem to know what your son's future girlfriend will prefere. Do you do arranged marriage or are you just saying bullshit just because you can ?
Is there anyone here who is PRO circumcision at birth? Don't tell me, "Yeah I'm circumcised, and I feel great." I want to know if someone who supports circumcision thinks that having parents decide for their children is better than giving the individual the choice.
I had the pleasure of seeing a circumcision up close and personal during my OBGYN clerkship and needless to say it made me not want to go to obgyn or peds.
Pretty upsetting knowing I will never have the same sexual functions as an uncut man assuming that is all fact. However looking at those other statistics such as the graph titled "Circumcision and sexual dysfunction" I would like to know source. It could just be as simple as most americans are circumcised, a large portion of americans are also obese and have other health problems, couldn't that be related? Europeans are not circumcised and are known for usually being fit and healthy.
So yeah. I wish I wasn't done and will not have my kids done if I have any. Just seems there really is no upside to circumcision.
I see no reason to do a circumcision at birth as the effects arent large enough to warrant doing it without the person's consent. Might as well give men the choice to have it done later in life.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
That's exactly what I was thinking :D
Unless you make your penis get used to rough contact. This might sound kind of kinky but my penis used to be EXTREMELY sensitive to the point where a single poke would make me squirm. So with a little "training" it wouldn't be too bad. UNCIRCUMCISED PENISES 화이팅!!!
THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
On September 09 2011 09:56 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm still going to have my child circumcised. I'm part Jewish and it just looks aesthetically better (in my opinion and my girlfriend's).
I just wish my father didn't take pictures of my circumcision. I didn't know what it was when I was a kid looking through these photos, but when I was told what it was, I took a deeper look.
God, I'm so traumatized by myself. No pictures of my younger brother, only of his first son...
...
ugh
How much time do you plan on spending looking at your sons penis? I bet it won't be as much time as him, so why not let him decide?
I honestly don't give a shit about what you choose to do to the genitalia of any of your children, I just thought that was an odd reason
For many years, as I clean them as children. His girlfriend will too, very likely.
Not sure why you want to know.
Ok I'll try to explain what the gentleman tried to say : Why don't you let your son take that decision instead of you ? Because don't tell me you're gonna circumcise your son only because it looks better when you're changing his diapers.
Edit : I'm also very curious about the fact that you seem to know what your son's future girlfriend will prefere. Do you do arranged marriage or are you just saying bullshit just because you can ?
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that.
EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head.
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
Just because a baby doesn't remember the pain doesn't mean it is morally correct to circumcise the baby without consent. Apologies for my analogy, but you wouldn't think it's right for a hundred guys to stick their dicks in a baby's mouth one by one just because the baby "won't remember it," would you?
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that.
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head.
This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc.
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that.
EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head.
This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc.
The circumcision is important in Jewish culture to show the covenant between God and Abraham, as well with all of the Jews. It's kind of a bfd for us.
If you are against it, that's cool. Doesn't really need to be a thread. I wasn't aware there was an elephant in the room, as I don't go around spouting of information about my genitals to the internet.
ROFL at circumcision/sexual dysfunction chart. That graph looks so amateurish I think you probably just put a bunch of random numbers on excel.
What I know for fact: Circumcision reduces risk of STD transfer Circumcision de-sensitizes the skin of the penis (to touch, and hence also stimulation)
What is this talk about people tugging at the foreskin to regrow? Is there seriously a flab of skin sticking out that you can pull on??? YUCK.
On September 09 2011 11:18 W2 wrote: ROFL at circumcision/sexual dysfunction chart. That graph looks so amateurish I think you probably just put a bunch of random numbers on excel.
What I know for fact: Circumcision reduces risk of STD transfer Circumcision de-sensitizes the skin of the penis (to touch, and hence also stimulation)
What is this talk about people tugging at the foreskin to regrow? Is there seriously a flab of skin sticking out that you can pull on??? YUCK.
I kind of wonder if you did the same. It's almost intentional though, how you blast the guy for being amateur putting random things together and then the very next sentence go on to do the same things. It's almost as though you're being ironic or something. I dont know.
Women expect circumcised penises most of the time.
Only in dixieland. In the rest of the civilised world they're a rarity.
Frankly I don't even get the aesthetics arguement. For one it's common for the skin to fold down when your sporting a raging uncercumcised boner so they look practically the same immediately prior to the act of hole ramming anyway.
Secondly, it's a fucking penis. I don't care if your Brad Pitt and you put your johnson in a tuxuedo, it'll still end up looking like shit. I defy the world that anyone, be it a straight women, gay man or anyone else has ever uttered the line "thats a very handsome penis you have there".
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that.
EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head.
This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc.
I know, outrageous. Sociology/Anthropology.
how did we get to arranged marriages? O.o
It's parallel to the idea that giving a child all the decisions in the world is utopian, but unrealistic and stupid in reality.
On September 09 2011 11:17 heroofcanton wrote: Jew here.
The circumcision is important in Jewish culture to show the covenant between God and Abraham, as well with all of the Jews. It's kind of a bfd for us.
African tribesman here.
The female circumcision is important in my African tribe to show the covenant between God and the wife, as well as with all tribespeople. It's kind of a bfd for us.
Teamliquid, in my experience, is not the sort of place that takes kindly to "IT'S MY RELIGION, THEREFORE IT'S OKAY" comments.
On September 09 2011 11:17 heroofcanton wrote: If you are against it, that's cool. Doesn't really need to be a thread. I wasn't aware there was an elephant in the room, as I don't go around spouting of information about my genitals to the internet.
Nothing on Teamliquid "needs to be a thread." It's a forum. People post shit that they want to talk about.
I feel like it should always be the person's choice, it's kind of crazy that people make the choices for the kids most of the time when it comes to this. I know a lot of religions do it, but that doesn't justify it. I prefer being circumcized, and I'm glad that I was when I was little and I didn't have to make the choice later just cause I could see myself now when it's about to happen scream like a child and run out the door... I probably prefer it cause that's the way I have been my whole life, but whatever. I still wouldn't do it to a child myself when I have no idea what that child wants in life yet.
Is this as big as an issue as the OP leads me to believe, not really.. And I have never once had this "inferior" process in my brain, as far as comparing to foreskin. Look I understand everyone and their brother, mother and sister thinks that men are all jealous about each others penises, and each penis needs to be this way and that way, but seriously? I'm going to have to call bull shit on this particular fact. If anything it's a rare case.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Uhhh I don't really care, I'm uncircumcized, but when I'm erect my foreskin pulls back and my penis looks like it's circumcized. The only problem I have is when I'm urinating and well piss is trapped there. If I have a son, I'm going to get him circumcized.
On September 09 2011 11:17 heroofcanton wrote: Jew here.
The circumcision is important in Jewish culture to show the covenant between God and Abraham, as well with all of the Jews. It's kind of a bfd for us.
African tribesman here.
The female circumcision is important in my African tribe to show the covenant between God and the wife, as well as with all tribespeople. It's kind of a bfd for us.
Teamliquid, in my experience, is not the sort of place that takes kindly to "IT'S MY RELIGION, THEREFORE IT'S OKAY" comments.
On September 09 2011 11:17 heroofcanton wrote: If you are against it, that's cool. Doesn't really need to be a thread. I wasn't aware there was an elephant in the room, as I don't go around spouting of information about my genitals to the internet.
Nothing on Teamliquid "needs to be a thread." It's a forum. People post shit that they want to talk about.
TL respects the ideals of other religions as long as they are tasteful and long-founded (in this case, there is a symbolic representation of circumcision).
You really need to use your sociological imagination here.
Maybe its because people in south america dont do it, but I could never do this to my child and I consider it child abuse (in the sense of provoking unbearable pain to a kid)
I'm circumcised and I think you're getting into a massive huff over nothing. It doesn't affect me negatively in any way and I cannot remember any pain arising from it.
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid?
Yes (that aspect of it, at least).
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
Sorry.
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Not right when they pop out of the womb, no. But by the time it will matter (i.e. when they're having sex), they'll certainly be able to make such a decision, which is why you cannot rationally justify circumcising an infant without invoking "MY DADDY AND MY RELIGION TOLD ME TO."
On September 09 2011 11:28 GoTuNk! wrote: Maybe its because people in south america dont do it, but I could never do this to my child and I consider it child abuse (in the sense of provoking unbearable pain to a kid)
Indeed. I was shocked to learn it is prevalent in the US.
On September 09 2011 11:26 Pleiades wrote: If I have a son, I'm going to get him circumcized.
Please don't I know its you and your partners choice and all. I wish my parents didn't get me done. There really can't be anything wrong with a natural penis. There is no point being circumcised unless it needs to be done medically.
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Not right when they pop out of the womb, no. But by the time it will matter (i.e. when they're having sex), they'll certainly be able to make such a decision, which is why you cannot rationally justify circumcising an infant without invoking "MY DADDY AND MY RELIGION TOLD ME TO."
1. How so? I'm genuinely interested in knowing because I disagree.
2. Have you ever seen a grown man get a circumcised penis after they've hit puberty and everything, including nerves and organs are fully matured.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally.
People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally.
People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me.
How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family).
Cosmetic surgery on babies should be illegal. When your child is old enough, let him choose if he wants to be circumcised. Children aren't dogs, you can't crop their ears or dock their tails.
Better or worse is irrelevant, it's not up to you. You have no right to permanently remove any part of your childs body for non medical reasons. I'm sorry if your religion mandates it, but this is an unethical practice and you should reflect upon it.
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid?
Yes (that aspect of it, at least).
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
Sorry.
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Not right when they pop out of the womb, no. But by the time it will matter (i.e. when they're having sex), they'll certainly be able to make such a decision, which is why you cannot rationally justify circumcising an infant without invoking "MY DADDY AND MY RELIGION TOLD ME TO."
1. How so? I'm genuinely interested in knowing because I disagree.
2. Have you ever seen a grown man get a circumcised penis after they've hit puberty and everything, including nerves and organs are fully matured.
Think about it.
1. Not responding to this, cause it's not directed at me.
2. I haven't 'seen' it, but if you read through this thread, you will find plenty of people who have admitted to exactly that, for better or worse.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally.
People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me.
How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family).
Because not everyone is going to be Jewish from birth to death, what if they change to a religion where having your foreskin is considered an honor and a sign of god's love? Sometimes entire families switch religions, just because the new husband is a different religion and can't marry out of it.
On September 09 2011 11:30 Torte de Lini wrote: 1. How so? I'm genuinely interested in knowing because I disagree.
You are amputating a piece of your child's body for no reason. That is inherently stupid.
On September 09 2011 11:30 Torte de Lini wrote: 2. Have you ever seen a grown man get a circumcised penis after they've hit puberty and everything, including nerves and organs are fully matured.
Yes. As a matter of fact, I was circumcised when I was 18 due to phimosis. Even though I ended up having to get it done, I'm glad that my parents gave me the choice, and removing the foreskin because it might have problems down the line makes about as much sense as removing the appendix preemptively in case you ever get appendicitis.
On September 09 2011 07:47 TALegion wrote: I'm kind of confused. What are the arguments for not doing it, other than supposed sexual dissatisfaction and pain as a baby? Claiming there are not benefits isn't really a reason to be against it, as much as simply not being for it.
If the OP's claims are correct, there is little scientific basis for a torturous procedure -- mutilation without anesthesia.
What are the arguments for not doing clit removal, other than supposed sexual dissatisfaction and pain as a baby?
Which is why science trumps culturally acceptable mutilation, which is what you have bought into.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally.
People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me.
How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family).
What if I my family is part of Religion X, and all newborn babies have their ears cut off. Sure, my hearing may worsen a bit, but I can still hear just fine. 5 years later, I decide that I don't want to believe in Religions X. Now what do I do...I have no ears, and to everyone outside of Religion X, having no ears is not a good thing.
I'm not saying this as a direct parallel to circumcision, rather something based on your logic of "neither right or wrong" and "tradition upheld" because of "respect."
On September 09 2011 11:27 Torte de Lini wrote: TL respects the ideals of other religions as long as they are tasteful and long-founded (in this case, there is a symbolic representation of circumcision).
You really need to use your sociological imagination here.
Oh sorry, I should have remembered that your rituals are more normalized and therefore are okay.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
Regardless of whether he thinks your heritage/religion is stupid or not, the point he is trying to make is that just because it is religion/heritage/tradition doesn't make it automatically correct, either medically or morally.
People aren't suggesting that children get to pick. I too agree that that would be irresponsible. They are suggesting that individuals, when they 'grow up,' should then allowed to choose whether to be circumcised or not. That makes perfect sense to me.
How does a personal decision make something universally right or even culturally right? It's a personal decision within my family. It's neither right or wrong, but a tradition upheld because we acknowledge a respect that may not be in your family (and that's fine and normal for your family).
Because not everyone is going to be Jewish from birth to death, what if they change to a religion where having your foreskin is considered an honor and a sign of god's love? Sometimes entire families switch religions, just because the new husband is a different religion and can't marry out of it.
What if this and that, I don't understand. Are we meant to withhold decisions purely because of what if scenarios? Outrageous ones on top of that.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that.
EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head.
This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc.
I know, outrageous. Sociology/Anthropology.
how did we get to arranged marriages? O.o
It's parallel to the idea that giving a child all the decisions in the world is utopian, but unrealistic and stupid in reality.
it's the same utopia as giving the parents all the decisions. you're assuming all parents are intelligent, good people. there's all too many cases where parents neglect to give their children water or food or keep them locked up because of some cultural/religious idea or what have you. In the end, you can't have one extreme because reductio ad absurdum will prove it's wrong. I'm just arguing that there should be a point where the community or the state should intervene to protect those that cannot protect themselves(this is sounding eerily like a pro-life argument) in a reasonable fashion.
you wouldn't trust the parents to do everything and anything they wanted to, would you? and who is arguing for giving a child all the decisions in the world? I'm just asking for you to respect your children as individual human beings, and not as slaves, or something that experiment with. If this means breaking with "tradition" then so be it. We should cast these archaic and obsolete ways to sea.
On September 09 2011 11:27 Torte de Lini wrote: TL respects the ideals of other religions as long as they are tasteful and long-founded (in this case, there is a symbolic representation of circumcision).
You really need to use your sociological imagination here.
Oh sorry, I should have remembered that your rituals are more normalized and therefore are okay.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Your missing my point, and I didn't mean to give the impression that I think that teaching religion to a child is wrong, that's an entirely different discussion and leading off the course of this thread. I personally would never raise a child as an particular religion or faith, but to each his own. However, altering that child's body because of their religion could be wrong.. Just cause you and maybe even most, were fine with that, doesn't mean that all are going to be. Maybe your just fine with it cause that's how you've known your penis to be your whole life, just like me. Maybe if I wasn't when I was young, I would be totally completely mad at anyone wanting to cut off part of my penis.
And yes I think that we should uphold decisions based on what if scenarios when dealing with archaic traditions that should be thrown out to sea, I'm actually done with what I thought would be a constructive argument just cause you seem to take offense to everything that's been said so far.
On September 09 2011 11:01 StinkyBoots wrote: THe thing the OP seems to forget is that the baby does not remember the cirumcision, nor the pain. Birth itself is painful. Your first breath is painful, as fresh air rushes your lungs. It would be like breathing really cold air in the winter, it hurts. your first breath is much worst then that, yet we do not complain about breathing. A circumcised penis does feel less during intercourse, I am told by someone having a circumsicion very late in life, but from birth one would not know the diferrence. Anyways that is my tib bit of info. Good read though.
EXACTLY ! This is why we should rape babies legally ! because you know they won't remember and the first breath my hurt more than that.
EDIT :
Arranged marriages are preferred amongst many females, though I can see why you can't believe it.
In addition, by the time he can make a conscious decision, it will even more painful should he decide it to do it.
Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Prove me that shit and I'll believe you on that. I won't answer to your second paragraph because it doesn't make sense at all in my head.
This just in, some women are focused on their careers and education. Not everyone marries for love and not everyone does not trust the judgement of the parents. It is not unnatural for the parents to decide the husband for the women because the parents knows what's best for their child and which man would suit their financial security, etc. etc.
I know, outrageous. Sociology/Anthropology.
how did we get to arranged marriages? O.o
It's parallel to the idea that giving a child all the decisions in the world is utopian, but unrealistic and stupid in reality.
it's the same utopia as giving the parents all the decisions. you're assuming all parents are intelligent, good people. there's all too many cases where parents neglect to give their children water or food or keep them locked up because of some cultural/religious idea or what have you. In the end, you can't have one extreme because reductio ad absurdum will prove it's wrong. I'm just arguing that there should be a point where the community or the state should intervene to protect those that cannot protect themselves(this is sounding eerily like a pro-life argument) in a reasonable fashion.
you wouldn't trust the parents to do everything and anything they wanted to, would you? and who is arguing for giving a child all the decisions in the world? I'm just asking for you to respect your children as individual human beings, and not as slaves, or something that experiment with. If this means breaking with "tradition" then so be it. We should cast these archaic and obsolete ways to sea.
I give parents the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the welfare of their own children. There's not many publicized cases where parents are good parents because guess what? It's the expected norm and assumed to be the majority of parents' nature towards their children.
I would trust them to make decisions for me until I was old enough or mature enough to make the decisions on my own. I'm not shelving the idea that I don't deserve to make decisions, but the best medium would be that in times of major decisions both my consent or view with my parent's own judgement would be the best middle-path.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
History says he won't. If he does, we can talk about it and see if it is truly an issue or there is an underlying issue that is associated with his circumcision.
I don't see why circumcision is an issue. Is a young adult really going to fit with his parents about a decision he has no conscious memory of ever recalling being taken away from him?
On September 09 2011 11:44 Torte de Lini wrote: but the best medium would be that in times of major decisions both my consent or view with my parent's own judgement would be the best middle-path.
Ahem. Does this not directly lead to not performing infant circumcisions? Wait until you can get the consent of your kid as well before performing cosmetic surgeries on him.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Your missing my point, and I didn't mean to give the impression that I think that teaching religion to a child is wrong, that's an entirely different discussion and leading off the course of this thread. I personally would never raise a child as an particular religion or faith, but to each his own. However, altering that child's body because of their religion could be wrong.. Just cause you and maybe even most, were fine with that, doesn't mean that all are going to be. Maybe your just fine with it cause that's how you've known your penis to be your whole life, just like me. Maybe if I wasn't when I was young, I would be totally completely mad at anyone wanting to cut off part of my penis.
You're right, I missed the point. Sorry.
What part of that penis does it do? Like, what is its function? The reasonings behind my circumcision are more than just religion, but I associate it with religion. I'm not heavily religion, but I do take pride my religion and am fine, accepting with the decision taken from me (since it doesn't affect my life as a whole).
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
History says he won't. If he does, we can talk about it and see if it is truly an issue or there is an underlying issue that is associated with his circumcision.
I don't see why circumcision is an issue. Is a young adult really going to fit with his parents about a decision he has no conscious memory of ever recalling being taken away from him?
I could make this exact same argument about female circumcision. It's simply the principle of the matter. You do not have the right to irreversibly modify your child's body for cosmetic or ritual purposes.
The only argument that I'm going to make is a simple one. I've never seen an uncircumcised penis that I've liked. My own penis, although circumcised, still brings me large amounts of pleasure. If you put this all of this information into a pie chart you will see that in my case circumcision, takes up 97% of the preferred penis in my life. Based on this knowledge we should quit worrying about each others dicks (literally). I don't know if I'd have my son circumcised or not. I will say that if he popped out today I'd probably prefer it. Most females from the US expect uncircumcised penises, and pre-mature ejaculation is already a big of enough issue for most men in the world so I won't worry much about his lack of pleasure. I just want to give my son the best advantage as possible in life.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
History says he won't. If he does, we can talk about it and see if it is truly an issue or there is an underlying issue that is associated with his circumcision.
I don't see why circumcision is an issue. Is a young adult really going to fit with his parents about a decision he has no conscious memory of ever recalling being taken away from him?
If it won't matter then I'd rather not hurt someone else. I wouldn't even let my children close to someone who thinks otherwise.
Don't go no foreskin here; don't got no problem. I like the look of it, I get some added comfort of no foreskin-related infections and I most certainly can not remember it happening. That said, I don't think it really needs to be done. I haven't heard of any foreskin-related epidemics, sooooo... yea, I'd assume that you'd be completely fine if you washed properly.
On September 09 2011 11:44 Torte de Lini wrote: but the best medium would be that in times of major decisions both my consent or view with my parent's own judgement would be the best middle-path.
Ahem. Does this not directly lead to not performing infant circumcisions? Wait until you can get the consent of your kid as well before performing cosmetic surgeries on him.
At first I could not see the benefits of having a circumcision, despite being told about the problems suffered by some men with a long or tight foreskin. When I left school I went into catering and found myself working in a hot and sticky environment all day. Needless to say, I got very sweaty under my foreskin and it was sometimes quite unpleasant, just as my friend had predicted it might be, however I still didn't want to consider circumcision.
As I left my teens I got myself a regular girlfriend and at this point discovered that when I had a very hard erection my tight frenulum not only hurt but also pulled on the back of the glans and made the piss slit point down at right angles to my shaft. My girlfriend suggested that this was not right and could interfere with proper sex. I remembered what my friend had said and so I asked her if she thought I ought to be circumcised. She considered this to be a very good idea.
Reading further on, it seems the circumcision process is rather unpainful. That's a relief.
Oh, to answer your question: yes it would. However I stand by my stance, despite its potential irrationality (as you can tell, I'm also rational to alternative ideas) and would probably sit down with the mrs. and talk it out. See how she feels.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
But it doesn't matter whether you have an issue with it. It's a matter of whether your child will have an issue with it. It's not your body that you're irreversibly modifying.
History says he won't. If he does, we can talk about it and see if it is truly an issue or there is an underlying issue that is associated with his circumcision.
I don't see why circumcision is an issue. Is a young adult really going to fit with his parents about a decision he has no conscious memory of ever recalling being taken away from him?
I certainly hope he would at least learn from it to not do it to his children. I know I would be really pissed if I had been circumcised, and would take every possible measure to reverse it as much as possible.
Circumcision should be made illegal to children under 18. There is little to no proven health benefit that can't be gained through other(more reasonable) means, and you're cutting off part of your son's penis without his say in it. That's fucked up. If the son grows up and then feels that he needs circumcision, that's his choice, but doing it to a child? Cutting off part of the penis without even giving him the choice? Ridiculous.
Oh, to answer your question: yes it would. However I stand by my stance, despite its potential irrationality (as you can tell, I'm also rational to alternative ideas) and would probably sit down with the mrs. and talk it out. See how she feels.
Better?
No, unless it's your wife's genitals you're cutting shit off of, then her consent is pretty moot as to the morality of the action.
Also, I don't know if you missed my earlier response to you where I told you that I personally was circumcised at age 18 due to phimosis. As a result, I am well aware of the complications that can arise from having a natural penis. However, I'm still happy that my parents let me have the choice to get the procedure done rather than making the decision for me when I couldn't say no.
Dicks look the same erect circumsised or not, this entire "aesthetic" thing is bullshit.
Something else that is bullshit is saying it's okay because it's cultural. We get all outraged when African tribes remove the clits of women at birth for cultural reasons, why is it that cutting the end of a dick is okay?
The answer, whether you'll admit it or not, is because it happened to you, and because you grew up with it being the norm, you accept it as such. No, fuck you, ritualistically maiming baby dick is not the norm.
I agree, the OP is incredibly biased, but in this case it's justified. I wouldn't, for example, give a fair analysis giving the pros and cons of the rape of Nanking. If something's objectively wrong, bias is irrelevant.
Oh, please. I've never heard anyone EVER speak in disgust of circumcision or not. Seriously, the only place I've seen true conflict over it is fucking 4CHAN where boys of both endowments argue who's better because they're insecure as fuck. Illegal under 18? Pfffff. Don't circumcise your child -- I'm cool with that. Doesn't mean I can't have mine if I don't see fit.
Ok I'm going to have to clarify a ton of things I see being called out on me here...
I wrote the op in such a biased manner because I feel so fucking strong about this. It would be very hard for me to concede the points of the other side of the argument. If I tried to write neutral I would still be called out for bias. Also, to every moron who's calling out my bias, I put a fucking disclaimer smack dab at the bottom of the post. I SAID I wasn't going to pretend to be unbiased ffs. Stop calling me out on it.
Also, I've seen a lot of posts who are insulting me. "i bet OP is uncut and his gf laughed and crushed his dreams and now hes defending his ego." or "OP is prolly cut and now he's trying to tell us how screwed we are."
Fuck you.
First off that's the definition of argumentum ad hominem; a logical fallacy. You seek to discredit me by insult.
Second off it's not true. I am uncut and the reason I posted this thread is to give babies the choice. It disturbs me that this practice happens, to INFANTS no less. So I seek to inform people about the detractors of circumcision. I didn't include the other side of the argument because almost everybody's heard it.
And finally, I'm requesting a close. I made a mistake by posting this here and all I've accomplished is driving this argument in circles and pissing everybody off. I see so much misinformed bullshit on here that it blows me away. People are saying that the foreskin has no purpose+ Show Spoiler +
It was give to us by evolution/god, and it protects the glans from abrasion. Are you fucking stupid?
You're removing healthy, living tissue without immediate medical reason. The preventative crap is like cutting off someones fingers because they might get slammed in doors.
some are even stupid enough to say "Well I'm circumcised and I'M okay!" + Show Spoiler +
Seriously? The reason you can't feel anything is that your glans, which is naturally covered by the inner foreskin (a mucosa membrane), is exposed to the elements and like it or not, you've developed a callus on it and now you can't feel the pleasure of sex before you reach orgasm. Saying that you last longer is bull because last is almost purely psychological. Plus, you've never had the comparison.
Even saying that it looks better is crap because I'd bet good money that if you grew up with it, you'd like it too. Plus, it's your kids penis, not yours.
All of these claims are bullcrap. Clearly I can't convince anyone here that that's what they are. So I'm going to cut my losses here and end this vicious cycle of flame.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
On September 09 2011 11:56 Cedstick wrote: Oh, please. I've never heard anyone EVER speak in disgust of circumcision or not. Seriously, the only place I've seen true conflict over it is fucking 4CHAN where boys of both endowments argue who's better because they're insecure as fuck. Illegal under 18? Pfffff. Don't circumcise your child -- I'm cool with that. Doesn't mean I can't have mine if I don't see fit.
I don't think that anyone in this thread has argued that circumcision as a whole should be illegalized. People are just arguing that parents should not be allowed to do it to their children without the children's informed consent.
In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
All the respect I have ever had for you is now void. I cannot believe that you acknowledge and comprehend what you're doing to a baby and then saying "Fuck you I'm doing this whether you like it or not."
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
In the end, tough luck. It's my daughter and I get to decide if she gets her clit removed or not.
I really don't understand how you can say, "Yeah, I'm wrong, but I don't care."
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
What if he does? Then what?
You're okay with that? "Son I realise you dislike the fact I cut off part of your dick, but deal with it." How can you possibly think you are right in a scenario like that?
On September 09 2011 11:56 Cedstick wrote: Oh, please. I've never heard anyone EVER speak in disgust of circumcision or not. Seriously, the only place I've seen true conflict over it is fucking 4CHAN where boys of both endowments argue who's better because they're insecure as fuck. Illegal under 18? Pfffff. Don't circumcise your child -- I'm cool with that. Doesn't mean I can't have mine if I don't see fit.
I don't think that anyone in this thread has argued that circumcision as a whole should be illegalized. People are just arguing that parents should not be allowed to do it to their children without the children's informed consent.
Josealtron did. I didn't quote him because the post was making a general statement on the morality issue. In Canada (and the US, I'd guess, though I don't live there) there has never been any stigma with being cut. I think the option should exist; if a couple want to be safe regarding any health complications in their child's future, why should they not be allowed to have it happen? I honestly can't believe anyone would ever look at the only penis they've ever known and think, "this is the reason I'm demasculated" -- or whatever.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
I'm pretty sure I can label a rapist an asshole by one dimension of their decisions or views. I can label you an asshole for not caring about your childs wishes in regards to their genitals.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
What if he does? Then what?
You've potentially harmed the relationship with your son for an admittedly irrational reason?
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
All the respect I have ever had for you is now void. I cannot believe that you acknowledge and comprehend what you're doing to a baby and then saying "Fuck you I'm doing this whether you like it or not."
Sorry. To be fair, I gave alternative views and possibilities, including consent and other likelihoods.
Be realistic, I'm 22. I don't think I'm having a child in the near future. You think all these talks are permanent, in stone and will not change at all?
I'm final saying that it's my decision with my family and, if convinced, the child's at a reasonable age (not when he's an adult unless it is truly painless).
Things change, not everything will be decided in this lulz topic.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
You're hardly putting your best food forward. Try to come to a moral decision here like everyone else instead of shirking the responsibility and ignoring the rights of all involved
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: Lastly, circumcision is for the honor for my father's Jewish. Something I respect and is a part of all of us in this family.
On September 09 2011 11:03 Torte de Lini wrote: My parents didn't give me a choice to be circumcised. I don't have a problem with them and I take into the idea that they did it with good intentions. You guys are so bent on making sure an infant or future child will have all the decisions in their life, yet, whenever a child fucks up, we blame the parents.
Can't have both.
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
What if he does? Then what?
You're okay with that? "Son I realise you dislike the fact I cut off part of your dick, but deal with it." How can you possibly think you are right in a scenario like that?
People tend to forget that its still surgery and there are risks that the procedure can go wrong.
Anybody remember the story of David Reimer? He was the boy that lost his penis during circumcision and was then raised as a girl. Quite a sad story.
A complete loss of the penis is estimated at 1 in a million circumcision. You can say that's pretty low risks but I would still feel so incredibly guilty if my son was that 1 in a million.
[QUOTE]On September 09 2011 12:05 gogogadgetflow wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2011 12:03 Torte de Lini wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2011 12:01 RockIronrod wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).[/QUOTE] You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.[/QUOTE]
Yes, there are some choices that we expect parents to make, and other choices that we expect their children to be allowed to make. Yes, we can have both.
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
What if he does? Then what?
You're okay with that? "Son I realise you dislike the fact I cut off part of your dick, but deal with it." How can you possibly think you are right in a scenario like that?
Never said I was right? Where did I say that?
So you're arguing despite knowing you're wrong. Okay then, discussion over, you're a terrible hypocritical person.
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
Did a girl go ewwy at your dick cause you aint circumsized and you inherited and inferiority complex because of it and decided you needed to post a very biased post about how its awesome?
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
Seriously. Do you really want your son dating vapid bitches who will dump him because of his non-mutilation?
On September 09 2011 11:25 Torte de Lini wrote: [quote]
I'm sorry, are you saying that respecting my heritage and religion is stupid? That's very offensive, I don't like this tone and your explanation made in a meme-form. That's very disrespectful.
You can have an infant make a decision about their genitalia about concepts and aspects in their life and understanding that play a heavy role in the decision.
You can have both, but in this instance it's not possible. What's being implied here is an extreme of allowing the child to make a decision they can't consciously make a responsible decision over.
No one is implying the child make the decision. Most people are saying the child should be left unaltered, then be informed of the decision when they reach a responsible age(Whatever that might be, personally I think it varies from person to person but I'm sure lawmaking bullshit will find that 16 or so is probably it). Sure you might still be Jewish and respect your parents, and believe that's great for you.
But as far as I'm concerned I hate it when people call their children, a "insert religion here" child, and make decisions for them based on that. My step dad wanted my little sister and brother baptized at two years old, they don't even attend that church now at ten and thirteen, the thirteen your old is now an atheist.. ... I'm sure plenty of Jewish people have converted or decided that having their foreskin removed before they even had the concept of being Jewish was wrong for them.
As for me I was raised as a Presbytarian and called a Christian by my family, nowadays after having attended different churches, reading different bibles, book of mormon, etc.. I don't believe in god, and personally don't find most religions do anything for me.
I'm Catholic and Jewish, I don't celebrate either religions. I don't do Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter, etc. None of it. Not because I reject the religion, I just don't have an interest.
I do, however, respect and acknowledge that religion played a moral curve to me. It taught me basic moral values that helped me live and fundamentally cooperate with society and the world (along with other factors). I'm baptized and circumcised and I'm fine with both.
Their intentions aren't to force you into a religion or label you as XYZ religion, they're just using religion as a tool to guide you to grow up properly and with understanding of the rights and wrongs in life.
I do love Passover though.
Yes, thank God your parents cut off your foreskin, otherwise you never would have understood to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Point being, I don't have an issue with it.
That's wonderful. What if your son does have an issue with it?
What if he does? Then what?
You're okay with that? "Son I realise you dislike the fact I cut off part of your dick, but deal with it." How can you possibly think you are right in a scenario like that?
Never said I was right? Where did I say that?
So you're arguing despite knowing you're wrong. Okay then, discussion over, you're a terrible hypocritical person.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
You're doing a potentially dangerous surgery for no reason on a "useless" body part (something very wrong by the way), because fuck it why not? If it's perfectly fine beforehand, why not cut it off and open up an array of potential horrors?
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
Seriously. Do you really want your son dating vapid bitches who will dump him because of his non-mutilation?
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
Seriously. Do you really want your son dating vapid bitches who will dump him because of his non-mutilation?
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
Seriously. Do you really want your son dating vapid bitches who will dump him because of his non-mutilation?
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
I admit I hyperbolised here :/ . The fact is though, that to people who are used to cut dicks, uncut dicks look funny and foreign and not at all sexy. Does it make me shallow to be disgusted by uncut dicks, because I am. I can't help it, just like I can't help being disgusted by the thought of gay sex. Maybe I'm shallow like most americans to think cut dicks look better, but we do.
I'd have to live with the decision of making my kid look odd to not only his future partners, but possibly himself as well. How do I reconcile that?
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
If a deaf guy forces his son to be deaf at birth, who cares, he could never hear anyway. Also, good intentions? What? I don't see any intentions other then "i think its better" and "THAT RELIGION I DON'T CARE ABOUT BUT DO CARE ABOUT TOLD ME TO"
Woah. I had no idea people would really get this upset over this discussion. I always assumed it as one of those "who really gives a shit" choices that parents make.
On September 09 2011 12:08 MagicGunner wrote: I guess I'm what you'd call a skin head.
[QUOTE]On September 09 2011 12:01 matjlav wrote: [QUOTE]
In the end, tough luck. It's my daughter and I get to decide if she gets her clit removed or not.
I really don't understand how you can say, "Yeah, I'm wrong, but I don't care." [/QUOTE]
I do find it amusing how it's perfectly acceptable, even demanded of by many women, to mutilate young boys without their consent just so it looks good to them and they experience less pleasure, but any time female circumcision is mentioned for any reason, it's a terrible crime. Some people find that it looks better and like the idea of women receiving less pleasure as well, but people don't let that argument pass if it's a girl.
My personal opinion is that if it's not necessary for medical reasons, it's child abuse and a human rights issue. I understand the idea in less civilised times. But today, we have these things called showers. Just take care of it and avoid such barbaric mutilation.
On September 09 2011 12:02 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm cut but not for religious reasons.
So after doing some research I found out that based on the preponderance of the evidence both for and against, no esteemed health organization in the world suggests routine infant circumcision. Even in the socially conservative, mostly-circumcised US, the American Pediatric Association did not come out in favor of circumcision.
With that in mind I decided that I would let my kid decide for himself if and when he wanted what basically amounts to genital cosmetic surgery.
My girlfriend is appalled, however. She said she would not find my cock nearly as sexy uncircumcised (insult or flattery?), and that she would in fact have been very shocked and halfway disgusted to find an uncircumcised one. In short, she wants her kid to look 'normal' like me.
Now I have to re-evaluate my position: if the health pros/cons are even, can I make a cosmetic decision for my kid? I still lean to no.
I think what you do is slap your gf for being such a shallow idiot really haha! I mean halfway disgusted?? Jesus im never ever ever going near an american girl if they freak out over this kind of stuff.
I admit I hyperbolised here :/ . The fact is though, that to people who are used to cut dicks, uncut dicks look funny and foreign and not at all sexy. Does it make me shallow to be disgusted by uncut dicks, because I am. I can't help it, just like I can't help being disgusted by the thought of gay sex. Maybe I'm shallow like most americans to think cut dicks look better, but we do.
I'd have to live with the decision of making my kid look odd to not only his future partners, but possibly himself as well. How do I reconcile that?
The only way you would be making him anything is by taking the decision into your own hands. If he dont like it he can damn well change it himself. If he's more than fine with it, then theres no reason you'd need to reconcile anything.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
He's GOING to have the internet, if he ever hears about what was done to him and reads the studies on desensitivity then he'll probably be pretty pissed off. By the way the foreskin has thousands of nerve endings that all contribute to the pleasure of sex so your argument that it is useless is void.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
DICKS LOOK THE SAME ERECT REGARDLESS With an erection the foreskin retracts and is hidden mostly by the head. The most difference you'll get is a slight ring around the head.
what purpose was this thread created for out of curiosity? to sway people towards contempt for circumcision? you already stated in the OP that its basically a cultural practice, who exactly are you to say what a culture should do?
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Some women prefer uncut penises. If a women thinks normal penises are 'icky' then why is she sleeping with your son? She has no appreciation or acceptance for a man's natural body parts given to him by nature.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
No foreskin creates more complications than having foreskin. Oh no, smegma! How will he go without showering for 3 weeks!
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
He's GOING to have the internet, if he ever hears about what was done to him and reads the studies on desensitivity then he'll probably be pretty pissed off. By the way the foreskin has thousands of nerve endings that all contribute to the pleasure of sex so your argument that it is useless is void.
I wouldn't say "probably" here. Just saying, as I've met a whopping zero people who dislike the fact that they are circumcised (for any reason). I know it's just personal experience, but yeah, throwing that out there.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Well, as I said earlier, I personally look down and think, "hey, I like the look better than the original, and every girl I've been with thinks the same," and then I think about how I've never had to worry about foreskin-related infections, and I thank my parent's for their decision. As literal a "disfigurement" it may be, I don't see it that way at all. There are more common complications in birth, which could result in death, so a medical choice with a "one-in-a-million" chance of complications doesn't seem to big a deal for what I see as a benefit.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
He's GOING to have the internet, if he ever hears about what was done to him and reads the studies on desensitivity then he'll probably be pretty pissed off. By the way the foreskin has thousands of nerve endings that all contribute to the pleasure of sex so your argument that it is useless is void.
I read it, I'm not pissed off. In fact, my stance remains almost unchanged (I am surprised that circumcised penises does not prevent or reduce HIV, etc. I can't recall the fact anymore).
How will the child know if the sensation of pleasure is significantly more to brood over the loss of his foreskin.
I hate to use this line, but why would he be troubled by something he never had at the start of his conscious life and sexual introduction?
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Studies have been pasted all over this thread that show that women prefer whichever type of penis they're most accustomed to. There's no universal beauty standard for penises. (which all look hilariously stupid, by the way.)
If you have a daughter, are you considering taking her for breast implants when she hits puberty? Because, you know, dudes like big bewbs, amirite?
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Some women prefer uncut penises. If a women thinks normal penises are 'icky' then why is she sleeping with your son? She has no appreciation or acceptance for a man's natural body parts given to him by nature.
A penis isn't art. This idea of appreciation and nature's gift is an exaggeration.
I really find the argument of what women prefer strange, if the boy in question has no say in the decision. Most men prefer large breasts, should we have breast surgery on young girls without their consent too?
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Some women prefer uncut penises. If a women thinks normal penises are 'icky' then why is she sleeping with your son? She has no appreciation or acceptance for a man's natural body parts given to him by nature.
A penis isn't art. This idea of appreciation and nature's gift is an exaggeration.
It looks aesthetic, so it's better to cut it. Some women prefer it uncut though. FUCK OFF NO ONE CARES HOW IT LOOKS
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Studies have been pasted all over this thread that show that women prefer whichever type of penis they're most accustomed to. There's no universal beauty standard for penises. (which all look hilariously stupid, by the way.)
If you have a daughter, are you considering taking her for breast implants when she hits puberty? Because, you know, dudes like big bewbs, amirite?
Not sure why you're telling me about studies, how is that relevant to my statement above?
You realise you could buy an alright sized tv for the money your wasting on chopping your babies penis up? You could get like 4 years worth of GOMtv passes!! Thats more convincing than any other arguments in this thread
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Some women prefer uncut penises. If a women thinks normal penises are 'icky' then why is she sleeping with your son? She has no appreciation or acceptance for a man's natural body parts given to him by nature.
A penis isn't art. This idea of appreciation and nature's gift is an exaggeration.
It looks aesthetic, so it's better to cut it. Some women prefer it uncut though. FUCK OFF NO ONE CARES HOW IT LOOKS
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Studies have been pasted all over this thread that show that women prefer whichever type of penis they're most accustomed to. There's no universal beauty standard for penises. (which all look hilariously stupid, by the way.)
If you have a daughter, are you considering taking her for breast implants when she hits puberty? Because, you know, dudes like big bewbs, amirite?
Not sure why you're telling me about studies, how is that relevant to my statement above?
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Studies have been pasted all over this thread that show that women prefer whichever type of penis they're most accustomed to. There's no universal beauty standard for penises. (which all look hilariously stupid, by the way.)
If you have a daughter, are you considering taking her for breast implants when she hits puberty? Because, you know, dudes like big bewbs, amirite?
Not sure why you're telling me about studies, how is that relevant to my statement above?
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
On September 09 2011 12:15 Torte de Lini wrote: It's not shallow to find something unappealing. If the penis is sexually unappealing, some women won't have sex.
Yes, morally, they should have sex because they love the person. But removing the entire aesthetic interest or desire in love-making is ridiculous. There needs to be a physical attractiveness or acceptance on both parts.
Studies have been pasted all over this thread that show that women prefer whichever type of penis they're most accustomed to. There's no universal beauty standard for penises. (which all look hilariously stupid, by the way.)
If you have a daughter, are you considering taking her for breast implants when she hits puberty? Because, you know, dudes like big bewbs, amirite?
Not sure why you're telling me about studies, how is that relevant to my statement above?
Not all men like big breasts or fake ones.
Not all women like chopped penises. Why is the aesthetic a part of your argument? You don't seem to want to make any other cosmetic surgery choices for your future children.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
He's GOING to have the internet, if he ever hears about what was done to him and reads the studies on desensitivity then he'll probably be pretty pissed off. By the way the foreskin has thousands of nerve endings that all contribute to the pleasure of sex so your argument that it is useless is void.
I read it, I'm not pissed off. In fact, my stance remains almost unchanged (I am surprised that circumcised penises does not prevent or reduce HIV, etc. I can't recall the fact anymore).
How will the child know if the sensation of pleasure is significantly more to brood over the loss of his foreskin.
I hate to use this line, but why would he be troubled by something he never had at the start of his conscious life and sexual introduction?
So how do you know that your child won't be pissed off? Furthermore, I think I'd be pretty fucking pissed off if I read somewhere that someone had lopped off part of my dick and now I'll never be as sensitive. Just because he can't feel it for himself doesn't mean he won't be pissed that now he'll never get to try it. The very fact that he had something good taken away from him and now he'll never get it back is enough
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
On September 09 2011 11:59 Torte de Lini wrote: In the end, tough luck. It's my child and I get to decide if he gets a circumcised penis or not.
Selfish? You bet? Bullshit? Uh-huh. Completely repulsive? Ask his future girlfriend(s) Unfair? Ha, maybe. Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
I'm sure every one of you hate seeing your penis have a head. ):
I gave my rationale, even from the outer perspective its irrational, but I don't care, neither will the child (very likely) and nor will the world because no one will see it (in some rare occasion, they will).
You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
He's GOING to have the internet, if he ever hears about what was done to him and reads the studies on desensitivity then he'll probably be pretty pissed off. By the way the foreskin has thousands of nerve endings that all contribute to the pleasure of sex so your argument that it is useless is void.
I read it, I'm not pissed off. In fact, my stance remains almost unchanged (I am surprised that circumcised penises does not prevent or reduce HIV, etc. I can't recall the fact anymore).
How will the child know if the sensation of pleasure is significantly more to brood over the loss of his foreskin.
I hate to use this line, but why would he be troubled by something he never had at the start of his conscious life and sexual introduction?
So how do you know that your child won't be pissed off? Furthermore, I think I'd be pretty fucking pissed off if I read somewhere that someone had lopped off part of his dick and now he'll never be as sensitive. Just because he can't feel it for himself doesn't mean he won't be pissed that now he'll never get to try it. The very fact that he had something good taken away from him and now he'll never get it back.
How do you know the child will be pissed off? I'm really glad to hear your anecdotal view. It's very difficult to feel extreme pain or dislike with the idea of your circumcised penis because you never got to see how it feels uncircumcised.
As if missing a chance for greater sexual pleasure is the end all, be all. I'm sure the child will be so repulsed by the idea of his penis being circumcised that he will become asexual by choice and rebellion of his changed penis.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
On September 09 2011 12:01 RockIronrod wrote: [quote] You know those rednecks who give their baby's tattoos or piercings and everyone is disgusted by them? You're unabashedly one of those now. Congratulations, here's your complimentary Insane Clown Posse shirt and "Half-dicked baby on board" car sticker.
Thank you. I'm glad you're able to label someone based on one dimension of their decisions or views. You've done very well being equally as understanding as they very person you're bashing.
Just because there is more than that one aspect to your parenting philosophy, that does not mean that this one given aspect is not incredibly stupid.
It's like how I think it's incredibly wrong and stupid to bring children up believing that there's a God who will send them to Hell if they don't believe in him. I still know plenty of people who do that and are otherwise great parents.
People have flaws. It's people who recognize these flaws and say "Yeah, I know it's a flaw, but fuck it" that I don't understand. Especially when that flaw is affecting other people around you.
The flaw is minor in the grand scheme of things. You guys exaggerate and distort it heavily with general descriptions!
YOURE CUTTING OFF A PART OF HIS PENIS
Yeah, foreskin that plays no actual or significant role in the function of the body
YOURE SO SHALLOW FOR DOING IT FOR COSMETIC REASON
etc etc etc
Yes, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. It's still a flaw. Why not correct it when this correction takes absolutely no effort on your part?
Because I don't feel it'll be a problem for the child. I'm trying to really hard to see where a child might be bothered.
That we made a decision for him? Yeah, so? We do that for a lot of things?
That we took away a part of his penis? I have mine taken away too. It's also a part he's never seen or recognized as significant to be troubled over.
That our intentions do not reflect his own? Mm, yes. This is true, but we had good intentions and given the above, I don't see why he'd throw a fit or tantrum.
He's GOING to have the internet, if he ever hears about what was done to him and reads the studies on desensitivity then he'll probably be pretty pissed off. By the way the foreskin has thousands of nerve endings that all contribute to the pleasure of sex so your argument that it is useless is void.
I read it, I'm not pissed off. In fact, my stance remains almost unchanged (I am surprised that circumcised penises does not prevent or reduce HIV, etc. I can't recall the fact anymore).
How will the child know if the sensation of pleasure is significantly more to brood over the loss of his foreskin.
I hate to use this line, but why would he be troubled by something he never had at the start of his conscious life and sexual introduction?
So how do you know that your child won't be pissed off? Furthermore, I think I'd be pretty fucking pissed off if I read somewhere that someone had lopped off part of his dick and now he'll never be as sensitive. Just because he can't feel it for himself doesn't mean he won't be pissed that now he'll never get to try it. The very fact that he had something good taken away from him and now he'll never get it back.
How do you know the child will be pissed off? I'm really glad to hear your anecdotal view. It's very difficult to feel extreme pain or dislike with the idea of your circumcised penis because you never got to see how it feels uncircumcised.
As if missing a chance for greater sexual pleasure is the end all, be all. I'm sure the child will be so repulsed by the idea of his penis being circumcised that he will become asexual by choice and rebellion of his changed penis.
If my dad told me "No sex won't ever feel better because fuck you that's why" I'd be fairly pissed off.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
It's a major issue because it's wide spread. Do I need someone to tell me how getting my dick FUCKING CUT UP would hurt? Can a baby remember being raped? No, WELL I GUESS IT DOESN'T MATTER THEN A HURR HURR
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Some countries have regulated on circumcision. But obviously there are huge political ramifications considering two of the three largest religions in the world practice it.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Removing extra protection because it can function without it is stupid. You don't need seatbelts, cars function without those after all. Circumcised sex is objectively less pleasurable.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
It's a major issue because it's wide spread. Do I need someone to tell me how getting my dick FUCKING CUT UP would hurt? Can a baby remember being raped? No, WELL I GUESS IT DOESN'T MATTER THEN A HURR HURR
Yeah, show me how widespread everyone making it. Give me numbers, I'm genuinely interested because I have no idea how widespread or important this crucial issue is.
Yes, you do. Because I doubt you recall at all.
The intentions are different. Rape is not circumcision.
An outtake from Christopher Hitchens book 'God is not Great" detailing the tradition of Circumcision still performed by Hasidic fundamentalists, and how the safety of children is at risk due to inaction for fear of insulting faith and tradition.
On September 09 2011 12:32 gogogadgetflow wrote: Torte that's 6 posts in 2 minutes, all inane 1-liners. I think you need to think about what you do in your spare time.
I'm waiting for a TL member to come back from visiting his friend. I'm also talking on skype about how we are going to advertise our StarCraft II uni. club at tomorrow's orientation while watching shitty Star Wars episode 3.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Thank god there's another sane person in this thread.
I have no idea where people are getting this ridiculous idea that circumcision is this most heinous terrible thing. Seriously. No one is agreeing on whether it's better or worse to have it. People are throwing around "mutilation" because it's sensationalist. This thread is ridiculous.
This is not like taking out the appendix (an invasive surgery ffs!). This is not like female genital mutilation. This is not fucking breast implants. Jesus.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
It's a major issue because it's wide spread. Do I need someone to tell me how getting my dick FUCKING CUT UP would hurt? Can a baby remember being raped? No, WELL I GUESS IT DOESN'T MATTER THEN A HURR HURR
Yeah, show me how widespread everyone making it. Give me numbers, I'm genuinely interested because I have no idea how widespread or important this crucial issue is.
Yes, you do. Because I doubt you recall at all.
The intentions are different. Rape is not circumcision.
Do you not think circumcision is not widespread? Okay then; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision Just because I wouldn't remember getting my dick hacked up doesn't mean it didn't hurt or it's okay. Yes it's not rape, it's cutting the babies dick. Something that is also a terrible thing to do.
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Some countries have regulated on circumcision. But obviously there are huge political ramifications considering two of the three largest religions in the world practice it.
What's the other one besides Judaism?
If we enacted a similar regulation, I'd probably comply with it if it was reasonable. I'm willing to consider it :3
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
any other valid or possible reasons besides that? You're hopping alot.
On September 09 2011 12:32 gogogadgetflow wrote: Torte that's 6 posts in 2 minutes, all inane 1-liners. I think you need to think about what you do in your spare time.
I'm waiting for a TL member to come back from visiting his friend. I'm also talking on skype about how we are going to advertise our StarCraft II uni. club at tomorrow's orientation while watching shitty Star Wars episode 3.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Thank god there's another sane person in this thread.
I have no idea where people are getting this ridiculous idea that circumcision is this most heinous terrible thing. Seriously. No one is agreeing on whether it's better or worse to have it. People are throwing around "mutilation" because it's sensationalist. This thread is ridiculous.
This is not like taking out the appendix (an invasive surgery ffs!). This is not like female genital mutilation. This is not fucking breast implants. Jesus.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Thank god there's another sane person in this thread.
I have no idea where people are getting this ridiculous idea that circumcision is this most heinous terrible thing. Seriously. No one is agreeing on whether it's better or worse to have it. People are throwing around "mutilation" because it's sensationalist. This thread is ridiculous.
This is not like taking out the appendix (an invasive surgery ffs!). This is not like female genital mutilation. This is not fucking breast implants. Jesus.
Just have fun :3! They're just very passionate in their view! I am too, but I don't mind considering their point of views!
I get to seriously talk to 6 strong-minded individuals!
On September 09 2011 12:11 Cedstick wrote: I wouldn't consider it a flaw, I'd consider it a -- in my case -- medical decision.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Removing extra protection because it can function without it is stupid. You don't need seatbelts, cars function without those after all. Circumcised sex is objectively less pleasurable.
How much protection does it really provide? People don't really walk around naked all the time, and foreskin isn't exactly a chainmail lol.
On September 09 2011 12:32 gogogadgetflow wrote: Torte that's 6 posts in 2 minutes, all inane 1-liners. I think you need to think about what you do in your spare time.
I'm waiting for a TL member to come back from visiting his friend. I'm also talking on skype about how we are going to advertise our StarCraft II uni. club at tomorrow's orientation while watching shitty Star Wars episode 3.
Is there an issue?
There is an issue. Thats a great movie
THATS A TERRIBLE MOVIE, OMG. ANYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT CIRCUMCISION IS VOID BECAUSE OF THIS.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Thank god there's another sane person in this thread.
I have no idea where people are getting this ridiculous idea that circumcision is this most heinous terrible thing. Seriously. No one is agreeing on whether it's better or worse to have it. People are throwing around "mutilation" because it's sensationalist. This thread is ridiculous.
This is not like taking out the appendix (an invasive surgery ffs!). This is not like female genital mutilation. This is not fucking breast implants. Jesus.
FGM is comparable to MGM because there are varying extremes for both. Extremes of male circumcision involve cutting of the entire dick and testicles. Extremes of FGM involve removing the clitoris and sewing the vagina shut. Lesser extremes involve pricking the clitoris/foreskin with a needle so that only a drop of blood falls.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Some countries have regulated on circumcision. But obviously there are huge political ramifications considering two of the three largest religions in the world practice it.
What's the other one besides Judaism?
If we enacted a similar regulation, I'd probably comply with it if it was reasonable. I'm willing to consider it :3
It's done routinely in Islam as well.
If it was law of course you'd comply with it, otherwise it'd be illegal not to! The debate here is whether it should be.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Some countries have regulated on circumcision. But obviously there are huge political ramifications considering two of the three largest religions in the world practice it.
What's the other one besides Judaism?
If we enacted a similar regulation, I'd probably comply with it if it was reasonable. I'm willing to consider it :3
It's done routinely in Islam as well.
If it was law of course you'd comply with it, otherwise it'd be illegal not to! The debate here is whether it should be.
I meant that I'd vote for it if it was reasonable. My bad.
Quick, chop out the kid's appendix, doesn't serve any real purpose and could cause health complications down the road.
Yeah, there are medical justifications for it. But when else do people perform permanent disfigurements as a pre-emptive medical procedure? If the foreskin is causing some problem, by all means, remove it. I still haven't seen any rational reason why it should happen otherwise in the developed world.
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
any other valid or possible reasons besides that? You're hopping alot.
Ok, there are painful scars after a circumcision. It's here by evolution. The jewish circumcision is a bloodletting ritual. All you need to do by jewish laws is prick the penis and let blood flow. Then you still fulfill the requirements. The glans is supposed to be sensitive for a reason. Having a sensitive dick during sex is at least twice as good as having a tough skinned dick as testified by people I've talked to who have had sex in both ways.
On September 09 2011 12:16 Torte de Lini wrote: [quote]
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
any other valid or possible reasons besides that? You're hopping alot.
Ok, there are painful scars after a circumcision. It's here by evolution. The jewish circumcision is a bloodletting ritual. All you need to do by jewish laws is prick the penis and let blood flow. Then you still fulfill the requirements. The glans is supposed to be sensitive for a reason. Having a sensitive dick during sex is at least twice as good as having a tough skinned dick as testified by people I've talked to who have had sex in both ways.
Painful, how so?
My child won't get to compare, why would he be bothered? Keep this around the idea of the child and his point of view. Will he truly be bothered of a decision made about his penis that he can't recall, is used to seeing, cannot compare the sexual pleasures and the difference in protection is irrelevant if nothing happens to it.
The only issue I could see is that he rejects entirely the Jewish heritage of my father's side. But even then, if he disassociates the circumcision with the Jewish tangents, the sight of it being circumcised has an unlikely painful memory of any horrors from the religion I intend to raise him with to teach him good morals and values (to which he can establish his own values as he matures).
All what ifs.
A big shame you lose all respect of me ): I still respect you ~<3
On September 09 2011 12:19 adrenaLinG wrote: [quote]
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
any other valid or possible reasons besides that? You're hopping alot.
Ok, there are painful scars after a circumcision. It's here by evolution. The jewish circumcision is a bloodletting ritual. All you need to do by jewish laws is prick the penis and let blood flow. Then you still fulfill the requirements. The glans is supposed to be sensitive for a reason. Having a sensitive dick during sex is at least twice as good as having a tough skinned dick as testified by people I've talked to who have had sex in both ways.
Painful, how so?
My child won't get to compare, why would he be bothered? Keep this around the idea of the child and his point of view. Will he truly be bothered of a decision made about his penis that he can't recall, is used to seeing, cannot compare the sexual pleasures and the difference in protection is irrelevant if nothing happens to it.
The only issue I could see is that he rejects entirely the Jewish heritage of my father's side. But even then, if he disassociates the circumcision with the Jewish tangents, the sight of it being circumcised has an unlikely painful memory of any horrors from the religion I intend to raise him with to teach him good morals and values (to which he can establish his own values as he matures).
All what ifs.
A big shame you lose all respect of me ): I still respect you ~<3
You forget that he will hear/read about some people who have experienced both and prefer the norm. He might not get to compare it himself but he'll still be upset because he'll never get to CHOOSE for himself.
Just don't do it, let him decide so he can't blame you. Like it or not he might do just that.
Thanks for making this thread. I'm circumcised and the more I learn about it the more appalled I am. People hate to hear about it though and threads like this usually get shut down. People need to speak out because this is still being done to infants who can't speak for themselves. If an adult wants to have surgery on their healthy, fully formed penis then I have no problem... but it's a violation of human rights to cut a healthy body part from an individual without their knowledge and consent. Mods please don't shut down this thread; people need to be informed even if the truth hurts to hear.
Personally, I am all for the government taking a more active role in legislating on the minutiae of parenting. What I would prefer is a big, fat, thoroughly researched handbook on how to raise, feed, clothe, and educate a child from conception to legal majority, a handbook from which it would be illegal to deviate. A nation's children ought to be more thoroughly protected from the ignorance and backwards practices of their mothers and fathers.
On September 09 2011 12:16 Torte de Lini wrote: [quote]
Appendix has no religious significance. Has no aesthetic change if removed. Has no traditional sense established. Costs a lot, achieves nothing if removed.
If you can prevent the foreskin causing problems, why not do it before-hand when the child cannot retain the memory or the potential (if any) pain.
It's hypothetical, not my stance (or is it?)
All surgery has risk. And removing foreskin is not exactly preventative medicine -- that's sort of like, removing boobs to prevent breast cancer.
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
any other valid or possible reasons besides that? You're hopping alot.
Ok, there are painful scars after a circumcision. It's here by evolution. The jewish circumcision is a bloodletting ritual. All you need to do by jewish laws is prick the penis and let blood flow. Then you still fulfill the requirements. The glans is supposed to be sensitive for a reason. Having a sensitive dick during sex is at least twice as good as having a tough skinned dick as testified by people I've talked to who have had sex in both ways.
All those people you talked to who had sex both ways? Given that probably is an extremely rare occurrence in the first place, I find it hard to believe you are not making up stuff to support your viewpoint. Have fun.
Oh, and why don't you follow your statement in the OP to "cut your losses" by stopping responding to the thread.
As someone who was circumcised as a child I don't have a feeling of inferiority to someone who wasn't circumcised, my father and mother told me that they circumcised me because my father was and they didn't want me to feel like I was different. I have very little scarring and almost no callous areas on my penis and I enjoy sex with my girlfriend.
In my opinion it should be up to the parents to decide whether they want their kids circumcised or not, its hard enough to be a good parent as it is and pressuring parents into thinking that they fucked their kid up for life by making a decision that the child won't remember and won't ever be able to know the difference.
Also there is some shitty math going on whatever website you are pulling this from. If HIV was prevented in 73 of 5,400 men that is 1.4% not 0.014% which is 100 times more than indicated and would mean that you would circumcise 71 men to save one, even though it still isn't statistically proof of the theory, but the graph about percentage of circumcision and sexual dysfunction is complete bullshit bias as well. I fail to see how ANY of the female categories have ANYTHING to do with circumcision and they just seem like cherry picked groups of people.
I am fairly neutral on the issue of circumcision, as the child won't ever remember the pain they felt and they won't be able to know how sex feels before being circumcised. I feel that whatever the parents decide is what should be done. I, in general, stand up for people's rights to decide to do what they want, and I dislike groups that tend to say no this is how it should be done especially when they can't do simple math or intentionally do it incorrectly to diminish counter arguments.
You forget that he will hear/read about some people who have experienced both and prefer the norm. He might not get to compare it himself but he'll still be upset because he'll never get to CHOOSE for himself.
Just don't do it, let him decide so he can't blame you. Like it or not he might do just that.
Oh no, I accounted for that and I feel he will be equally as open-minded as I am, yet mindful of how this issue is minor in view of his entire life.
I am fine with taking full responsibly for my actions and decisions set upon the child and if he resents me, then I accept that. I say this now, but in the future, who knows. I will keep all of this in mind though :3 (I intend to adopt, in which I case I won't forcefully circumcise. Now you see why I'm on the fence).
Bad parenting? Yes, let's define the entirety of my potential in parenting based on a decision I took away from a barely conscious child.
The issue is that your decision is essentially meaningless until the child is of the age of sexual maturity, since the only remaining arguments are that it a) looks better to women (or men) who are going to thus be more likely to suckle on it, which shouldn't be happening till he's at least 15. and b) it's healthier (specificially in the area of STDs, nowhere else). Same issue. Don't matter one jot unless he's getting some.
So there is essentially no reason to do it to a child, not until they're like 14 or so at least. What you are saying by performing it on an infant is 'I do not trust the potential child of 14 to choose to make this decision when it is relevant, so I will take it from his control'
Understand that you are not taking a decision away from an infant, you are taking away a decision from your son, whoever he grows up to be. Imagine him in 15 years and look him in the eye and say 'I chose this for you 15 years ago when I didn't know who you'd be, what you'd think or whether you'd be ok with it if I asked you today, oh and it's about to start being relevant around now.'
On September 09 2011 12:51 HULKAMANIA wrote: Personally, I am all for the government taking a more active role in legislating on the minutiae of parenting. What I would prefer is a big, fat, thoroughly researched handbook on how to raise, feed, clothe, and educate a child from conception to legal majority, a handbook from which it would be illegal to deviate. A nation's children ought to be more thoroughly protected from the ignorance and backwards practices of their mothers and fathers.
You're being sarcastic but any sociologist can tell you that a lot of poverty is concentrated among those who are disenfranchised from being born into bad situations -- such as abusive parents, broken families, and so forth.
So yes, we actually do need a handbook on how to properly raise children.
On September 09 2011 12:23 Torte de Lini wrote: [quote]
Except breasts have a bigger significant role than foreskin of a penis.
Can you elaborate
Breast-feeding
Protection of the Glans and sexual pleasure.
Penises function without the extra protection. Sexual pleasure is relative.
This is so much fun ;D! I haven't done these back and forths since college!
Oh so they 'function' now then? I guess I cut off your eyelids because hey, the eye functions FINE without them and after all, you can get stuff stuck in your eye and that's annoying.
any other valid or possible reasons besides that? You're hopping alot.
Ok, there are painful scars after a circumcision. It's here by evolution. The jewish circumcision is a bloodletting ritual. All you need to do by jewish laws is prick the penis and let blood flow. Then you still fulfill the requirements. The glans is supposed to be sensitive for a reason. Having a sensitive dick during sex is at least twice as good as having a tough skinned dick as testified by people I've talked to who have had sex in both ways.
Painful, how so?
My child won't get to compare, why would he be bothered? Keep this around the idea of the child and his point of view. Will he truly be bothered of a decision made about his penis that he can't recall, is used to seeing, cannot compare the sexual pleasures and the difference in protection is irrelevant if nothing happens to it.
The only issue I could see is that he rejects entirely the Jewish heritage of my father's side. But even then, if he disassociates the circumcision with the Jewish tangents, the sight of it being circumcised has an unlikely painful memory of any horrors from the religion I intend to raise him with to teach him good morals and values (to which he can establish his own values as he matures).
All what ifs.
A big shame you lose all respect of me ): I still respect you ~<3
You forget that he will hear/read about some people who have experienced both and prefer the norm. He might not get to compare it himself but he'll still be upset because he'll never get to CHOOSE for himself.
Just don't do it, let him decide so he can't blame you. Like it or not he might do just that.
I wouldn't bother feeding him any further. All he does is blatantly flop between some sort of faux "no harm done" justification, followed by false assertions of benefits. He's just trying to out maneuver people as they introduce new semantics too hastily in an attempt to resolve his repetition.
"Ahhh but there's no harm done!" "Yes there is [cite]" "Ahh but there are benefits!" "No medical board on the planet endorses circumcision [cite]" "Ah hah!! but there's no harm done!"
ad nauseum
Lend us some more credit kinetik, the average TL poster has a much larger attention span than just the last 4 posts that this style of "debate" relies on.
I could shred this post in many ways but I think I will just quote this incredibly baseless statement to highlight the many and various opinions being put forth as fact in the OP
"This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal"
How do you even respond to someone posting stuff like this as if its fact, using no sources, just making things up to support his view? How is this thread even remaining open? I just don't get it.
1. this thread is stupid 2. i am circumcised and why should i really care. if it has been studied to prevent certain diseases and a higher chance at others then go ahead as long as the parents agree with it. i dont know exactly why, but should i care why i was circumcised. i read the thread and it is extremely one-sided,also it is the Europeans that are against it more so arguing that it is inhumane, WTF. it is not mutilation of the penis, it is to help. if the infant has problems like urination issues or have a CHANCE at preventing diseases, go ahead as long as it is beneficial to the infant. 3. Seriously, how can we ask a 5 minute old infant whether or not he wants to be circumcised. 4. close this thread TL
I do agree with the fact that circumcision really is not a necessary process at all, and it is problematic to perform the process on an infant. I was circumcised as an infant. I don't have any problems with it, but I wouldn't ask for my male children to be circumcised.
That being said, your OP is hilariously painful to read because of your inane attempts at psychoanalysis.
On September 09 2011 12:52 Hipsv wrote: As someone who was circumcised as a child I don't have a feeling of inferiority to someone who wasn't circumcised, my father and mother told me that they circumcised me because my father was and they didn't want me to feel like I was different. I have very little scarring and almost no callous areas on my penis and I enjoy sex with my girlfriend.
In my opinion it should be up to the parents to decide whether they want their kids circumcised or not, its hard enough to be a good parent as it is and pressuring parents into thinking that they fucked their kid up for life by making a decision that the child won't remember and won't ever be able to know the difference.
Also there is some shitty math going on whatever website you are pulling this from. If HIV was prevented in 73 of 5,400 men that is 1.4% not 0.014% which is 100 times more than indicated and would mean that you would circumcise 71 men to save one, even though it still isn't statistically proof of the theory, but the graph about percentage of circumcision and sexual dysfunction is complete bullshit bias as well. I fail to see how ANY of the female categories have ANYTHING to do with circumcision and they just seem like cherry picked groups of people.
I am fairly neutral on the issue of circumcision, as the child won't ever remember the pain they felt and they won't be able to know how sex feels before being circumcised. I feel that whatever the parents decide is what should be done. I, in general, stand up for people's rights to decide to do what they want, and I dislike groups that tend to say no this is how it should be done especially when they can't do simple math or intentionally do it incorrectly to diminish counter arguments.
Oh look, a rational anecdotal reasoning that seems likely and common. Good for you, I support this entirely. This is how I see it and, tease me if you want, but I felt comfortable having the same kind of penis as my father. As a toddler, I showered with my father with my little brother and we all had the same kind of penises and I feel there is an inherent understanding that you want to be like your father in a shape or form.
Proposal to clean up discussion by ignoring people who:
1. Uses arguments from tradition
2. Believes routine cosmetic surgery on infants' genitals is acceptable, especially when rejected any form other than circumcision
3. Say as long as someone doesn't remember it, no harm no foul
4. Whine about people calling out their argument from tradition
5. Use psychoanalyzing unrelated to peer review
One is a clear fallacy, another is an attempt to be offended by people objecting to commenting on the fallacy, and the other two are propositions that if anyone took seriously would be absurd. The fifth was started by the OP and probably pisses off a lot of people before they post.
On September 09 2011 12:55 Nevermove wrote: 1. this thread is stupid 2. i am circumcised and why should i really care. if it has been studied to prevent certain diseases and a higher chance at others then go ahead as long as the parents agree with it. i dont know exactly why, but should i care why i was circumcised. i read the thread and it is extremely one-sided,also it is the Europeans that are against it more so arguing that it is inhumane, WTF. it is not mutilation of the penis, it is to help. if the infant has problems like urination issues or have a CHANCE at preventing diseases, go ahead as long as it is beneficial to the infant. 3. Seriously, how can we ask a 5 minute old infant whether or not he wants to be circumcised. 4. close this thread TL
1. No, this thread isn't. Fallacy of reification. 2. You might not care, but there are many others who do. Circumcision is indeed a remedy to some medical conditions, but in most cases, it is not done for such reasons. In fact, there are many people who have suffered from circumcision without consent. 3. Yes you are right, we can't ask infants, and that is precisely the point! Therefore circumcision of minors should be banned, and individuals should have the decision when they grow up. 4. No, leave it open.
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Thank god there's another sane person in this thread.
I have no idea where people are getting this ridiculous idea that circumcision is this most heinous terrible thing. Seriously. No one is agreeing on whether it's better or worse to have it. People are throwing around "mutilation" because it's sensationalist. This thread is ridiculous.
This is not like taking out the appendix (an invasive surgery ffs!). This is not like female genital mutilation. This is not fucking breast implants. Jesus.
Except it is EXACTLY that.
what...?
circumcision is nothing like cutting off the clitoris man. Wtf are you talking about?
On September 09 2011 12:19 Brutaxilos wrote: why is this such a big deal, nobody cares what your penis looks like. /thread please.
People are mutilating babies at birth. That is a problem.
Since when? Is it a social problem? Or a minor personal one? It doesn't sound like a social one, so the personal issue should be decided on case by case basis by those involved.
Since circumsision started. Yes. No it is not minor. No, the idea of cutting baby dick in an agonizing procedure should not be decided on a case by case basis. A blanket "I'm calling child services you sick fuck" would suffice better.
Any bills or decisions made by the government to regulate this or offer an alternative?
Show me how it is not a minor issue. I can't figure it out.
How do you how agonizing it is? Do you recall? Can a baby describe it to you?
Thank god there's another sane person in this thread.
I have no idea where people are getting this ridiculous idea that circumcision is this most heinous terrible thing. Seriously. No one is agreeing on whether it's better or worse to have it. People are throwing around "mutilation" because it's sensationalist.
This is not like taking out the appendix. This is not like female genital mutilation. This is not fucking breast implants. Jesus.
This is a thread about circumcision. You're taking one side of the debate and you're saying in a thread about circumcision we're not allowed to take the other side of the argument? I'm truely confused.
How the hell are we supposed to even have an argument? You've already reduced my viewpoint is baby mutilation. This isn't a discussion. This is one side being ridiculous and sensationalist and the other side being like "wtf are you talking about it's just circumcision jesus."
Numerous people have said in the thread that they've been circumcised and they like it, or they don't care, or whatever. It's clearly not as "OMG HE"S BEEN PERMANENTLY DISFIGURED FOR LIIIFE" as some people are claiming.
On September 09 2011 07:50 SpearWrit wrote: You fail to mention that uncircumcised babies also run the risk of Phimosis, where the foreskin cannot be retracted, blocking the urethra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
You also fail to mention that Smegma also grows under foreskins over time, even for uncircumcised men who regularly wash under the foreskin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smegma
Having a foreskin doesn't stop a man from having a "dick that isn't calloused and scarred." Circumcised penises grow used to contact with the outside and clothes that allow the skin to toughen and adapt and desensitize in a way that uncircumcised males cannot because they have a layer of skin over the sensitive area.
As such, circumcised men have longer stamina during sex BECAUSE their sex organ is less sensitive.
Smegma is supposed to lubricate the glans; the wikipedia page did not say anything about negative side effects.
Also, being desensitized to stimulation means that you feel less....so I don't think it's worth it.
It seems to me after reading the entire thread that the core of the issue is whether it is prudent and reasonable to undertake this painful procedure on an infant. Are there sufficient positive reasons to allow the practice on infants? It doesn't seem so.
Traditional and religious reasons should not influence us, considering they're typically clouded by unreliable and unreasonable thought. We don't respect one 'tradition' over another, especially if they involve nonconsential harm.
Hygiene and health reasons do not mandate that circumcision is a necessity or advisable, as has been mentioned in this thread, with reference to the relevant medical organizations.
Aesthetic issues are culturally relative. The C-penis will be preferred were it is the majority. Same for the UC-penis. Since aesthetic issues are related to sexual intercourse/activity, circumcision should be considered by an adolescent or adult male with awareness of the potential risks and rewards. If said male is under 18, parents consent should be requested.
The issue with this would be that some parents would likely coerce a child into the procedure due to their selfishness. Perhaps a blanket 18yo age limit would function best.
On September 09 2011 13:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Not sure how Jewish tradition and religious significance should be considered an ignorant reasoning.
Because separation of church and state
The way it is currently though, is that the state considers circumcision to be 'minor' enough to be left up to religions and parents to decide, because its not in the state's interests to regulate on that.
People in this thread, though, are arguing it is, and there is a pretty good case for it, even if it is unpopular (particularly in America where most males are circumcised and Americans are very pro-religion).
On September 09 2011 13:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Not sure how Jewish tradition and religious significance should be considered an ignorant reasoning.
Because separation of church and state
The way it is currently though, is that the state considers circumcision to be 'minor' enough to be left up to religions and parents to decide, because its not in the state's interests to regulate on that.
People in this thread, though, are arguing it is, and there is a pretty good case for it, even if it is unpopular (particularly in America where most males are circumcised and Americans are very pro-religion).
Ah, that makes sense. I guess I'm on the government's side. It seems more of a finnicky issue that I originally thought. I'm surprised and glad I know.
The reason you can't feel anything is that your glans, which is naturally covered by the inner foreskin (a mucosa membrane), is exposed to the elements and like it or not, you've developed a callus on it and now you can't feel the pleasure of sex before you reach orgasm.
What? Sex feels absolutely amazing from start to finish. Not sure where you're getting these "facts" about the pleasure of circumcised sex.
On September 09 2011 13:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Not sure how Jewish tradition and religious significance should be considered an ignorant reasoning.
Because separation of church and state
The way it is currently though, is that the state considers circumcision to be 'minor' enough to be left up to religions and parents to decide, because its not in the state's interests to regulate on that.
People in this thread, though, are arguing it is, and there is a pretty good case for it, even if it is unpopular (particularly in America where most males are circumcised and Americans are very pro-religion).
It's freedom of religion though. It's the other way around. The state shouldn't be telling you how to practice your religion under reasonable circumstances. So it's an argument on whether or not it's reasonable.
On September 09 2011 13:04 Doomwish wrote: Male circumcision is fine imo.
Female circumcision is much too intrusive and very disturbing to me. Who actually practices this?
Many tribes in Africa and other parts of the world too.
Something else to say: there are many degrees of female circumcision, and the most extreme forms are indubitably worse than male circumcision. But even the milder forms such as removing the prepuce only, which can be analogous to removing the foreskin only, are banned too. So there should be no reason for this double standard where male circumcision is actually legal
On September 09 2011 13:04 Doomwish wrote: Male circumcision is fine imo.
Female circumcision is much too intrusive and very disturbing to me. Who actually practices this?
A surprisingly high number of people from various parts of Africa consider female circumcision to be essential. I would imagine that they have similarly stupid threads on their websites about this, in between the Nigerian princes' posts about how no one believes their stories.
On September 09 2011 13:04 Doomwish wrote: Male circumcision is fine imo.
Female circumcision is much too intrusive and very disturbing to me. Who actually practices this?
Many tribes in Africa and other parts of the world too.
Something else to say: there are many degrees of female circumcision, and the most extreme forms are indubitably worse than male circumcision. But even the milder forms such as removing the prepuce only, which can be analogous to removing the foreskin only, are banned too. So there should be no reason for this double standard where male circumcision is actually legal
But it's not actually analogous to removing the foreskin only, so that entire train of thought makes no sense.
On the left side of the page there is a navigation bar. Click "Bris Shalom."
The idea is that circumcision is not required for a boy to be considered jewish. If his mother is Jewish, he is Jewish. Also, in the 613 mitzvos, you are commanded to Not imprint any marks on your body Not make cuttings in your flesh.
Click on "converting to judaism"
In this it explains that the circumcision is primarily a bloodletting ritual, and when an already circumcised man converts to Judaism, all that is taken is a drop of blood from the penis.
Clearly, we see that this is all that is needed, so you may ask your rabbi to perform the bloodletting ritual by only taking a drop of blood.
On September 09 2011 13:00 Torte de Lini wrote: Not sure how Jewish tradition and religious significance should be considered an ignorant reasoning.
Because separation of church and state
The way it is currently though, is that the state considers circumcision to be 'minor' enough to be left up to religions and parents to decide, because its not in the state's interests to regulate on that.
People in this thread, though, are arguing it is, and there is a pretty good case for it, even if it is unpopular (particularly in America where most males are circumcised and Americans are very pro-religion).
It's freedom of religion though. It's the other way around. The state shouldn't be telling you how to practice your religion under reasonable circumstances. So it's an argument on whether or not it's reasonable.
Yes but religious expression has to be reasonable and has its limits. Religion cannot be used as a scapegoat for things that are illegal, for instance. Things like polygamy often tests the limits on what the state determines as falling within the realm of the secular state (and subject to regulation) or the realm of religious expression (under civil society).
And the case can easily be made the circumcision is something that should be regulated, and many people have. But it's not a popular topic given the nature of the subject.
Fair enough. I suppose I deserved to have the thread closed. It was a dick move (see what I did there?) to start my own reply thread. So without further ado, I give you my reply to this thread:
The sad part about this post is the fact that it will likely convince absolutely nobody to change their position on circumcision either way. That said, when I see an obviously biased "information" piece I tend to react strongly (the author of the original thread does not explicitly indicate either way the status of his penis, and presents his information as fact). This issue evokes a particularly strong reaction in me, being as I am circumcised. So you can well guess that I am biased in this matter as well, though I'm up-front about that fact. What I intend to do is offer a step-by-step rebuttal of the original post, and see where the discussion goes from there.
Without further ado, let's begin our analysis:
Infant Circumcision
This word evokes mixed feelings in people. On one hand we're supposedly reducing the risk of STDs, Penile cancer, and other various genital diseases for our precious little boys. On another hand, it's widely believed that by doing this to our little girls we are putting them through tremendous pain and agony.
This is a complaint you will hear me level many, many times throughout this analysis: source please! The author speaks of a mystical "we", making no attempt to define who this "we" is. Are those contending the health benefits of male infant circumcision respected medicinal practitioners, or middle-school students? Precision of language is necessary if we are to present facts as they exist. Without sources for your claims (or rather, your claim that someone else is claiming health benefits of circumcision), we cannot evaluate them objectively. Proper definition of subjects is crucial to discussion.
What people don't realize is that whether it's a girl or a boy, it still hurts like fucking hell. In about 95% of the circumcision videos I've watched (even the ones with applied anasthetic) the baby almost always shrieks with agony. Some say that this is the baby crying because it's restrained. This is not true. I have been to visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly. In almost every circumcision video, when the procedure actually begins and the foreskin is amputated, the shrieking escalates tenfold.
Wait a second. The author says circumcision "hurts like fucking hell", but does not provide any solid, empirical evidence. And we can assume that the author is uncircumcised (if he/she is not, feel free to correct me). Therefore, having never experienced it him/herself, how can the author speak to the pain of a circumcision? "Well", you say to yourself, "there are empirical ways to measure pain". To which I reply that there most certainly are. But does the author cite any study using these measurements? No. Instead he/she (hereafter I will refer to the author as a he, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary) cites a nebulous figure of "95% of the circumcision videos I've watched" and goes on to explain that "the baby almost always shrieks with agony". 95% is quite high; the information we are lacking is how many videos the author watched. If they watched 3, that is very different from watching 3,000 videos. Perhaps an even more egregious sin than finessing statistics is the fact that the author uses anecdotal evidence, ass opposed to empirical evidence. It's quite possible that the author chose to watch mostly those videos that showed a child shrieking in pain; but a few incidents of children in pain does not a pattern make. Now if there were to be some empirical, procedurally-rigorousscientific study examining this subject, we could establish that pattern. However, you fail to back up your assertion that circumcision results in screaming babies. If you look at the studies I have provided, you will see that circumcision does in fact produce pain in children; however, these same studies point to effective measures that can be employed to lessen the pain and trauma. The author also contends that the screaming must be caused by the procedure, to which I reply: correlation does not causation make. It is possible (despite your roundly unscientific experiment presenting "evidence" to the contrary) that being restrained causes the children to cry; or perhaps the stress of being surrounded by unfamiliar people wearing outlandish garb causes a stress reaction; or the absence of the child's mother causes him to cry; or the coldness of the operating table; or hunger; or many other variables that may combine to cause crying during circumcision. Just because the two often occur simultaneously does not mean that the one must be caused by the other.
Stop. Citing and quoting Wikipedia? Really? There's a reason that colleges tend not to accept Wikipedia as cite-able material. For that same reason we should not use it even to give us definitions. Instead, let's agree to use a much more trusted and decidedly less-openly-editable resource: the Mayo Clinic.
Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis. Circumcision is fairly common for newborn boys in certain parts of the world, including the United States — making it the most common surgical procedure in newborn males worldwide. Circumcision after the newborn period is a more complicated procedure that may require general anesthesia.
The basics of circumcision: Did you know that... Medical infant male circumcision was initially introduced to curb masturbation? (source from The Intactivism Pages)
I'll say this criticism once, as it applies to every bullet point within your list: no source. You say that this information comes from the Inactivism Pages, yet you provide no link directly to the information, instead pointing us to the general website link at the bottom of your post. Rigorous standards must be upheld when citing informative (and supposedly authoritative) material, whether this be a college paper or a forum post. Also, I see no real support for the author's argument in this tidbit. Scientific theories change all the time, and old suppositions are tossed out as new evidence comes in. I'm not surprised that it was espoused as a cure for masturbation in olden days; the fact that it was advertised as such bears no relevance on the discussion.
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all uncircumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Well, for all my cries for objectivity and empirical studies, I have to get a little subjective here. Frankly, I would prefer pain when I'm a newborn to early death due to HIV. And according to the facts you cite, circumcision does in fact protect people from HIV. If circumcision can save even one person from HIV, I would favor circumcision. After all, we would all agree that protection for some is better than protection for none, yes? And because I value empiricism in my debates, here's an interesting quote for you to examine:
While being noncircumcised did not increase the likelihood of HIV and most STI infections, results indicated that circumcision was associated with higher rates of condom use, suggesting that those who promote condoms among MSM may need to better understand condom-related behaviors and attitudes among noncircumcised men to enhance the extent to which they are willing to use condoms consistently.
So the fact remains that even if circumcision in and of itself does not increase protection against HIV, circumcision and proven HIV-protective measures (namely condom use) have been found to be correlated. And I suppose I should add that studies have been done after the one which you cite, studies that include much larger sample sizes (such as the one I sourced above, which studied approximately 26,000 men). So disqualifying evidence based on small sample size should no longer be a problem.
The analysis continues.
Circumcision provides no protection at all for gay men or woman. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Wait, what? I'm sorry, but when did this turn into an issue of sexual orientation? I will grant you that in the United States new HIV cases occur more frequently in MSM (men who have sex with men) than any other group; yet, the percentage is only 53% of new cases among MSM, with nearly half of new cases reported each year belonging to groups other than gay men. So the largely unjustified (and to be fair, implied) accusation in this statement that HIV is a gay disease is patently untrue. Furthermore, I could find no evidence that remaining intact protects anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, from HIV any more so than does circumcision. So even if circumcision provided gay men and women no additional protection (a hypothesis which I personally doubt), the two states of penile intactness (if you will) are even in the protection provided, or lack thereof.
There is heavy hemorrhaging and possibly fatal bloodloss during some circumcisions.
No source. I will grant you that the possibility of blood loss during circumcision does exits, but the incidence of death during circumcision is two deaths per million circumcisions, a much lower fatality rate than a relatively safe activity, driving. The NHTSA estimates eleven traffic related fatalities per 100,000 people in the USA in 2009, a much higher rate of occurrence than death by circumcision.
And now we get to the truly wacky and wild:
The biggest reason is the psychological factor. Most men born in the mid 1900's are circumcised. Now that generation is about 40 and 50, which means they probably had kids in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. In today's society, with all this information, we know that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure. It also has a 50% chance of narrowing of the urethra, which can lead to many other complications. Such as keratinization of the glans. Most importantly, Sexual satisfaction is greatly reduced. This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal. If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on there a second. You say that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure, yet have no citations or evidence to back that up. Cite a source. I imagine you are thinking of the Inactivism Pages study that finds that the foreskin is the most sensitive area of the penis. Be that as it may, penis sensitivity is only one factor in attaining sexual pleasure. The (perceived) attractiveness of one's partner, the presence or absence of foreplay, the various implements and medicines used, and in some cases the presence of genuine love are but a few factors that can contribute to sexual pleasure.
You also fail to cite a source for your assertion that circumcision can narrow the urethra. If you don't have a source, I can't take what you say at face value.
Then you take yet another stab at getting into the heads of circumcised males, a group of people to which you (probably) do not belong. Claiming that circumcision leads to an inferiority complex is amazing. What's ludicrous is that you do it without sourcing any study whatsoever. Even if you know a circumcised male that feels inferior because of his lack of foreskin, generalizing that feeling to all circumcised males and then extrapolating that out to make sense of behavior you don't approve of is an incredible leap of (il)logic.
Moving on, we come to this passage:
Basically, the hygiene myth only applies when you don't take showers every day and can't/don't retract the foreskin and clean the area. In a country like this where you have all that stuff, the only inconvenience is taking 30 seconds each shower. What do you get in exchange? Day to day comfort and a dick that isn't callused and scarred. Both partners also have a lot more pleasure in sex.
Need I remind you that there are, in fact, many places in the world where a daily shower is unheard of? In fact, the U.N. classifies nearly fifty countries as LDCs, or less-developed countries. I believe this would suit the criteria of defining places where the "hygiene myth" would in fact apply. And if you take the time to read, you will notice that said list does not include the likes of India and China, two countries with roughly 1/3 of the world's population between them, many of whom have little to no access to showers. And of course we have the niggling trouble of the unsourced assertion that "both partners have a lot more pleasure in sex".
I think I have said enough.
Note: this comment was edited for content (removing some of the more personal-attack stuff that was heat-of-the-moment and ill-advised).
1. No, this thread isn't. Fallacy of reification. 2. You might not care, but there are many others who do. Circumcision is indeed a remedy to some medical conditions, but in most cases, it is not done for such reasons. In fact, there are many people who have suffered from circumcision without consent. 3. Yes you are right, we can't ask infants, and that is precisely the point! Therefore circumcision of minors should be banned, and individuals should have the decision when they grow up. 4. No, leave it open.
When you say "suffer" you make it seem like they have had a traumatic experience. there is no need to ban such a small procedure as people in this post keep saying. Its not like we are removing something necessary to live life. if you dont want your kids to be circumcised, go ahead it doesn't effect me at all. however the way people are taking this post is a little stupid. circumcised or not, is it really that big of a deal.
why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
why do people insist that we stop cutting female vaginas up. i mean seriously, the government is going too far! parents have a right to decide whats in the best interests for their child.
On September 09 2011 13:16 sephirotharg wrote: Fair enough. I suppose I deserved to have the thread closed. It was a dick move (see what I did there?) to start my own reply thread. So without further ado, I give you my reply to this thread:
The sad part about this post is the fact that it will likely convince absolutely nobody to change their position on circumcision either way. That said, when I see an obviously biased "information" piece I tend to react strongly (the author of the original thread does not explicitly indicate either way the status of his penis, and presents his information as fact). This issue evokes a particularly strong reaction in me, being as I am circumcised. So you can well guess that I am biased in this matter as well, though I'm up-front about that fact. What I intend to do is offer a step-by-step rebuttal of the original post, and see where the discussion goes from there.
This word evokes mixed feelings in people. On one hand we're supposedly reducing the risk of STDs, Penile cancer, and other various genital diseases for our precious little boys. On another hand, it's widely believed that by doing this to our little girls we are putting them through tremendous pain and agony.
This is a complaint you will hear me level many, many times throughout this analysis: source please! The author speaks of a mystical "we", making no attempt to define who this "we" is. Are those contending the health benefits of male infant circumcision respected medicinal practitioners, or middle-school students? Precision of language is necessary if we are to present facts as they exist. Without sources for your claims (or rather, your claim that someone else is claiming health benefits of circumcision), we cannot evaluate them objectively. Proper definition of subjects is crucial to discussion.
What people don't realize is that whether it's a girl or a boy, it still hurts like fucking hell. In about 95% of the circumcision videos I've watched (even the ones with applied anasthetic) the baby almost always shrieks with agony. Some say that this is the baby crying because it's restrained. This is not true. I have been to visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly. In almost every circumcision video, when the procedure actually begins and the foreskin is amputated, the shrieking escalates tenfold.
Wait a second. The author says circumcision "hurts like fucking hell", but does not provide any solid, empirical evidence. And we can assume that the author is uncircumcised (if he/she is not, feel free to correct me). Therefore, having never experienced it him/herself, how can the author speak to the pain of a circumcision? "Well", you say to yourself, "there are empirical ways to measure pain". To which I reply that there most certainly are. But does the author cite any study using these measurements? No. Instead he/she (hereafter I will refer to the author as a he, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary) cites a nebulous figure of "95% of the circumcision videos I've watched" and goes on to explain that "the baby almost always shrieks with agony". 95% is quite high; the information we are lacking is how many videos the author watched. If they watched 3, that is very different from watching 3,000 videos. Perhaps an even more egregious sin than finessing statistics is the fact that the author uses anecdotal evidence, ass opposed to empirical evidence. It's quite possible that the author chose to watch mostly those videos that showed a child shrieking in pain; but a few incidents of children in pain does not a pattern make. Now if there were to be some empirical, procedurally-rigorousscientific study examining this subject, we could establish that pattern. However, you fail to back up your assertion that circumcision results in screaming babies. If you look at the studies I have provided, you will see that circumcision does in fact produce pain in children; however, these same studies point to effective measures that can be employed to lessen the pain and trauma. The author also contends that the screaming must be caused by the procedure, to which I reply: correlation does not causation make. It is possible (despite your roundly unscientific experiment presenting "evidence" to the contrary) that being restrained causes the children to cry; or perhaps the stress of being surrounded by unfamiliar people wearing outlandish garb causes a stress reaction; or the absence of the child's mother causes him to cry; or the coldness of the operating table; or hunger; or many other variables that may combine to cause crying during circumcision. Just because the two often occur simultaneously does not mean that the one must be caused by the other.
Stop. Citing and quoting Wikipedia? Really? There's a reason that colleges tend not to accept Wikipedia as cite-able material. For that same reason we should not use it even to give us definitions. Instead, let's agree to use a much more trusted and decidedly less-openly-editable resource: the Mayo Clinic.
Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis. Circumcision is fairly common for newborn boys in certain parts of the world, including the United States — making it the most common surgical procedure in newborn males worldwide. Circumcision after the newborn period is a more complicated procedure that may require general anesthesia.
The basics of circumcision: Did you know that... Medical infant male circumcision was initially introduced to curb masturbation? (source from The Intactivism Pages)
I'll say this criticism once, as it applies to every bullet point within your list: no source. You say that this information comes from the Inactivism Pages, yet you provide no link directly to the information, instead pointing us to the general website link at the bottom of your post. Rigorous standards must be upheld when citing informative (and supposedly authoritative) material, whether this be a college paper or a forum post. Also, I see no real support for the author's argument in this tidbit. Scientific theories change all the time, and old suppositions are tossed out as new evidence comes in. I'm not surprised that it was espoused as a cure for masturbation in olden days; the fact that it was advertised as such bears no relevance on the discussion.
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all uncircumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Well, for all my cries for objectivity and empirical studies, I have to get a little subjective here. Frankly, I would prefer pain when I'm a newborn to early death due to HIV. And according to the facts you cite, circumcision does in fact protect people from HIV. If circumcision can save even one person from HIV, I would favor circumcision. After all, we would all agree that protection for some is better than protection for none, yes? And because I value empiricism in my debates, here's an interesting quote for you to examine:
While being noncircumcised did not increase the likelihood of HIV and most STI infections, results indicated that circumcision was associated with higher rates of condom use, suggesting that those who promote condoms among MSM may need to better understand condom-related behaviors and attitudes among noncircumcised men to enhance the extent to which they are willing to use condoms consistently.
So the fact remains that even if circumcision in and of itself does not increase protection against HIV, circumcision and proven HIV-protective measures (namely condom use) have been found to be correlated. And I suppose I should add that studies have been done after the one which you cite, studies that include much larger sample sizes (such as the one I sourced above, which studied approximately 26,000 men). So disqualifying evidence based on small sample size should no longer be a problem.
Circumcision provides no protection at all for gay men or woman. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Wait, what? I'm sorry, but when did this turn into an issue of sexual orientation? I will grant you that in the United States new HIV cases occur more frequently in MSM (men who have sex with men) than any other group; yet, the percentage is only 53% of new cases among MSM, with nearly half of new cases reported each year belonging to groups other than gay men. So the largely unjustified (and to be fair, implied) accusation in this statement that HIV is a gay disease is patently untrue. Furthermore, I could find no evidence that remaining intact protects anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, from HIV any more so than does circumcision. So even if circumcision provided gay men and women no additional protection (a hypothesis which I personally doubt), the two states of penile intactness (if you will) are even in the protection provided, or lack thereof.
There is heavy hemorrhaging and possibly fatal bloodloss during some circumcisions.
No source. I will grant you that the possibility of blood loss during circumcision does exits, but the incidence of death during circumcision is two deaths per million circumcisions, a much lower fatality rate than a relatively safe activity, driving. The NHTSA estimates eleven traffic related fatalities per 100,000 people in the USA in 2009, a much higher rate of occurrence than death by circumcision.
The biggest reason is the psychological factor. Most men born in the mid 1900's are circumcised. Now that generation is about 40 and 50, which means they probably had kids in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. In today's society, with all this information, we know that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure. It also has a 50% chance of narrowing of the urethra, which can lead to many other complications. Such as keratinization of the glans. Most importantly, Sexual satisfaction is greatly reduced. This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal. If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on there a second. You say that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure, yet have no citations or evidence to back that up. Cite a source. I imagine you are thinking of the Inactivism Pages study that finds that the foreskin is the most sensitive area of the penis. Be that as it may, penis sensitivity is only one factor in attaining sexual pleasure. The (perceived) attractiveness of one's partner, the presence or absence of foreplay, the various implements and medicines used, and in some cases the presence of genuine love are but a few factors that can contribute to sexual pleasure.
You also fail to cite a source for your assertion that circumcision can narrow the urethra. If you don't have a source, I can't take what you say at face value.
Then you take yet another stab at getting into the heads of circumcised males, a group of people to which you (probably) do not belong. Claiming that circumcision leads to an inferiority complex is amazing. What's ludicrous is that you do it without sourcing any study whatsoever. Even if you know a circumcised male that feels inferior because of his lack of foreskin, generalizing that feeling to all circumcised males and then extrapolating that out to make sense of behavior you don't approve of is an incredible leap of (il)logic.
Basically, the hygiene myth only applies when you don't take showers every day and can't/don't retract the foreskin and clean the area. In a country like this where you have all that stuff, the only inconvenience is taking 30 seconds each shower. What do you get in exchange? Day to day comfort and a dick that isn't callused and scarred. Both partners also have a lot more pleasure in sex.
Need I remind you that there are, in fact, many places in the world where a daily shower is unheard of? In fact, the U.N. classifies nearly fifty countries as LDCs, or less-developed countries. I believe this would suit the criteria of defining places where the "hygiene myth" would in fact apply. And if you take the time to read, you will notice that said list does not include the likes of India and China, two countries with roughly 1/3 of the world's population between them, many of whom have little to no access to showers. And of course we have the niggling trouble of the unsourced assertion that "both partners have a lot more pleasure in sex".
I think I have said enough.
Note: this comment was edited for content (removing some of the more personal-attack stuff that was heat-of-the-moment and ill-advised).
Great post, very well analyzed, would be hard pressed to take away from many of the points made.
I'm just curious if the people who are advocating infant circumcision for aesthetic reasons would be cool with routine labiaplasty being performed on young girls?
Why would anyone care what their genitals look like until they are sexually active anyway? By that time they will be old enough to make the decision for themselves. Making the decision that your newborn son should have surgery performed on him to make his genitals into what you believe to be more aesthetically pleasing seems really, really fucked up to me.
And what about something like a tattoo? Is it ok for a parent to tattoo their baby for aesthetic reasons?
And with regards to the pain caused by the procedure, I see a lot of people saying that it's ok because the baby won't remember it. Why is that not an acceptable excuse in any other context? If I inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby then that is child abuse, even if it causes no long term damage.
I can hardly see the "It's ok he won't remember it" argument working in court, but so many people here are completely dismissive of the pain inflicted on these babies for exactly that reason.
Unless there are very, very good medical reasons for infant circumcision to be performed then I see absolutely no reason why it should be done. If someone wants it then they can get it when they are older.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
- Less sensitivity when sex. - The head gets all wrinkly and looks dry because it develops a protective "shell". - The foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. - There is a risk of heavy bloodloss.
Also, are you kidding me? They are completely two things.
Would you also justify cutting off an arm the same way?
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
- Less sensitivity when sex. - The head gets all wrinkly and looks dry because it develops a protective "shell". - The foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. - There is a risk of heavy bloodloss.
Also, are you kidding me? They are completely two things.
Would you also justify cutting off an arm the same way?
-Sensitivity is subjective. -I don't have that aesthetic problem, personally. -Subjective again. -A legitimate issue.
Why are you comparing this to cutting off an arm. 1 arm isn't pleasant in any scenario ever. I fail to see the analogy. Parents decide a lot more important things for their children's lives then being circumcised.
I'm happy I got circumcised. Those thirty seconds each day to clean it really add up. Plus I don't remember getting snipped, which is all that matters to me.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
- Less sensitivity when sex. - The head gets all wrinkly and looks dry because it develops a protective "shell". - The foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. - There is a risk of heavy bloodloss.
Also, are you kidding me? They are completely two things.
Would you also justify cutting off an arm the same way?
I think the entire circumcision argument amounts to: Here let me cut off your fingers because I think it looks better and plus, you can't get them smashed by doors!
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
They had the kid, but that doesn't mean they can do whatever the fuck they want to the kid. The kid is still a person that has his rights, and if he is too young to be able to comprehend a procedure that will permanently affect his life and is not vital at that time, then it should not be done. Period. The effects of circumcision only start mattering when a child starts to become sexually active, and by then the child should've/will develop very soon his capacity to make the choice.
The negative impact is that you're permanently altering part of the person's body for no good reason and without his choice. It's like getting a nose job or plastic surgery on an infant girl, even if there's no permanently harmful effects, that doesn't mean it's OK to do it to someone without their consent. It's not something that's easy(if at all possible) to reverse either.
The OP had some flaws in his original post, and made some claims that are difficult to prove or were uncited. But, that doesn't change the fact that you're permanently altering a person's penis without their consent and without an important health reason. Also, and that last sentence is just lol. You seriously think getting circumcision is comparable to being born? There's a difference between necessary extreme pain and unnecessary extreme pain. Circumcision is unnecessary extreme pain. Being born is obviously necessary. They're not comparable.
I see it as kind of similar to tattooing a newborn, cutting off their earlobes, or having all their hair removed by laser surgery. Really weird thing to do to your baby.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
It's necessary for LIFE. I don't think you can compare the pain of birth to having someone shove a probe between the fused-together foreskin and glans and then cut the former off.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
I`m uncut but I`m for circumcision because seriously it is not that big of a deal the effect of either side are incredibly minimal. HIV protection is super low and so is the risk of death from circumcision. Next thing you know we will want to make sure that babies are only being fed formula because it has more vitamins or some shit like that. Christ TL can turn into a flame war faster than reddit goes on witch hunts.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
- Less sensitivity when sex. - The head gets all wrinkly and looks dry because it develops a protective "shell". - The foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. - There is a risk of heavy bloodloss.
Also, are you kidding me? They are completely two things.
Would you also justify cutting off an arm the same way?
I think the entire circumcision argument amounts to: Here let me cut off your fingers because I think it looks better and plus, you can't get them smashed by doors!
cut off your fingers.
Seriously.
...
These are the most ridiculous comparisons I have ever seen.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
So should parents be allowed to just chop off whatever part of their baby's body they deem non-essential?
I mean, at most women only need one nipple and men don't need any, so why not cut off the extras at birth?
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Are you deliberately trying to straw-man us or are you a moron? You're subjecting a child to unnecessary pain for no good reason. Now I think I'd rather sit through the extreme pain of my birth so I can have a LIFE. Suffering through extreme pain so I have a permanently alter dick so it 'looks better' to only some people is not something I'd do. It's my fucking dick, let me do what I want with it. Don't permanently alter it before I can think.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
I don't have any problem with the pain, I kind of have a problem with the parents making the decision to alter a body permanently without the child's knowing, knowledge or anything. At least give the child the chance to be old enough to read up on the subject, go to the library, use google, etc. At the time most of these surgery's are done, the child's brain is still freaking processing three things. Eat, Shit, Sleep.
The pain is just a minor issue, and if for some reason it didn't alter the child permanently, I could maybe, maybe see it being fine.
@ Sureshot, would you feel the same way if your parents put a permanent huge scar across your forehead at birth to show that you were part of whatever tradition they are? What if you backed out of that ten years later.
To take it to further extremes, are you saying the parent owns the child, as in ... slavery?
On September 09 2011 13:16 sephirotharg wrote: Fair enough. I suppose I deserved to have the thread closed. It was a dick move (see what I did there?) to start my own reply thread. So without further ado, I give you my reply to this thread:
The sad part about this post is the fact that it will likely convince absolutely nobody to change their position on circumcision either way. That said, when I see an obviously biased "information" piece I tend to react strongly (the author of the original thread does not explicitly indicate either way the status of his penis, and presents his information as fact). This issue evokes a particularly strong reaction in me, being as I am circumcised. So you can well guess that I am biased in this matter as well, though I'm up-front about that fact. What I intend to do is offer a step-by-step rebuttal of the original post, and see where the discussion goes from there.
This word evokes mixed feelings in people. On one hand we're supposedly reducing the risk of STDs, Penile cancer, and other various genital diseases for our precious little boys. On another hand, it's widely believed that by doing this to our little girls we are putting them through tremendous pain and agony.
This is a complaint you will hear me level many, many times throughout this analysis: source please! The author speaks of a mystical "we", making no attempt to define who this "we" is. Are those contending the health benefits of male infant circumcision respected medicinal practitioners, or middle-school students? Precision of language is necessary if we are to present facts as they exist. Without sources for your claims (or rather, your claim that someone else is claiming health benefits of circumcision), we cannot evaluate them objectively. Proper definition of subjects is crucial to discussion.
What people don't realize is that whether it's a girl or a boy, it still hurts like fucking hell. In about 95% of the circumcision videos I've watched (even the ones with applied anasthetic) the baby almost always shrieks with agony. Some say that this is the baby crying because it's restrained. This is not true. I have been to visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly. In almost every circumcision video, when the procedure actually begins and the foreskin is amputated, the shrieking escalates tenfold.
Wait a second. The author says circumcision "hurts like fucking hell", but does not provide any solid, empirical evidence. And we can assume that the author is uncircumcised (if he/she is not, feel free to correct me). Therefore, having never experienced it him/herself, how can the author speak to the pain of a circumcision? "Well", you say to yourself, "there are empirical ways to measure pain". To which I reply that there most certainly are. But does the author cite any study using these measurements? No. Instead he/she (hereafter I will refer to the author as a he, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary) cites a nebulous figure of "95% of the circumcision videos I've watched" and goes on to explain that "the baby almost always shrieks with agony". 95% is quite high; the information we are lacking is how many videos the author watched. If they watched 3, that is very different from watching 3,000 videos. Perhaps an even more egregious sin than finessing statistics is the fact that the author uses anecdotal evidence, ass opposed to empirical evidence. It's quite possible that the author chose to watch mostly those videos that showed a child shrieking in pain; but a few incidents of children in pain does not a pattern make. Now if there were to be some empirical, procedurally-rigorousscientific study examining this subject, we could establish that pattern. However, you fail to back up your assertion that circumcision results in screaming babies. If you look at the studies I have provided, you will see that circumcision does in fact produce pain in children; however, these same studies point to effective measures that can be employed to lessen the pain and trauma. The author also contends that the screaming must be caused by the procedure, to which I reply: correlation does not causation make. It is possible (despite your roundly unscientific experiment presenting "evidence" to the contrary) that being restrained causes the children to cry; or perhaps the stress of being surrounded by unfamiliar people wearing outlandish garb causes a stress reaction; or the absence of the child's mother causes him to cry; or the coldness of the operating table; or hunger; or many other variables that may combine to cause crying during circumcision. Just because the two often occur simultaneously does not mean that the one must be caused by the other.
Stop. Citing and quoting Wikipedia? Really? There's a reason that colleges tend not to accept Wikipedia as cite-able material. For that same reason we should not use it even to give us definitions. Instead, let's agree to use a much more trusted and decidedly less-openly-editable resource: the Mayo Clinic.
Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis. Circumcision is fairly common for newborn boys in certain parts of the world, including the United States — making it the most common surgical procedure in newborn males worldwide. Circumcision after the newborn period is a more complicated procedure that may require general anesthesia.
The basics of circumcision: Did you know that... Medical infant male circumcision was initially introduced to curb masturbation? (source from The Intactivism Pages)
I'll say this criticism once, as it applies to every bullet point within your list: no source. You say that this information comes from the Inactivism Pages, yet you provide no link directly to the information, instead pointing us to the general website link at the bottom of your post. Rigorous standards must be upheld when citing informative (and supposedly authoritative) material, whether this be a college paper or a forum post. Also, I see no real support for the author's argument in this tidbit. Scientific theories change all the time, and old suppositions are tossed out as new evidence comes in. I'm not surprised that it was espoused as a cure for masturbation in olden days; the fact that it was advertised as such bears no relevance on the discussion.
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all uncircumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Well, for all my cries for objectivity and empirical studies, I have to get a little subjective here. Frankly, I would prefer pain when I'm a newborn to early death due to HIV. And according to the facts you cite, circumcision does in fact protect people from HIV. If circumcision can save even one person from HIV, I would favor circumcision. After all, we would all agree that protection for some is better than protection for none, yes? And because I value empiricism in my debates, here's an interesting quote for you to examine:
While being noncircumcised did not increase the likelihood of HIV and most STI infections, results indicated that circumcision was associated with higher rates of condom use, suggesting that those who promote condoms among MSM may need to better understand condom-related behaviors and attitudes among noncircumcised men to enhance the extent to which they are willing to use condoms consistently.
So the fact remains that even if circumcision in and of itself does not increase protection against HIV, circumcision and proven HIV-protective measures (namely condom use) have been found to be correlated. And I suppose I should add that studies have been done after the one which you cite, studies that include much larger sample sizes (such as the one I sourced above, which studied approximately 26,000 men). So disqualifying evidence based on small sample size should no longer be a problem.
Circumcision provides no protection at all for gay men or woman. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Wait, what? I'm sorry, but when did this turn into an issue of sexual orientation? I will grant you that in the United States new HIV cases occur more frequently in MSM (men who have sex with men) than any other group; yet, the percentage is only 53% of new cases among MSM, with nearly half of new cases reported each year belonging to groups other than gay men. So the largely unjustified (and to be fair, implied) accusation in this statement that HIV is a gay disease is patently untrue. Furthermore, I could find no evidence that remaining intact protects anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, from HIV any more so than does circumcision. So even if circumcision provided gay men and women no additional protection (a hypothesis which I personally doubt), the two states of penile intactness (if you will) are even in the protection provided, or lack thereof.
There is heavy hemorrhaging and possibly fatal bloodloss during some circumcisions.
No source. I will grant you that the possibility of blood loss during circumcision does exits, but the incidence of death during circumcision is two deaths per million circumcisions, a much lower fatality rate than a relatively safe activity, driving. The NHTSA estimates eleven traffic related fatalities per 100,000 people in the USA in 2009, a much higher rate of occurrence than death by circumcision.
The biggest reason is the psychological factor. Most men born in the mid 1900's are circumcised. Now that generation is about 40 and 50, which means they probably had kids in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. In today's society, with all this information, we know that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure. It also has a 50% chance of narrowing of the urethra, which can lead to many other complications. Such as keratinization of the glans. Most importantly, Sexual satisfaction is greatly reduced. This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal. If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on there a second. You say that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure, yet have no citations or evidence to back that up. Cite a source. I imagine you are thinking of the Inactivism Pages study that finds that the foreskin is the most sensitive area of the penis. Be that as it may, penis sensitivity is only one factor in attaining sexual pleasure. The (perceived) attractiveness of one's partner, the presence or absence of foreplay, the various implements and medicines used, and in some cases the presence of genuine love are but a few factors that can contribute to sexual pleasure.
You also fail to cite a source for your assertion that circumcision can narrow the urethra. If you don't have a source, I can't take what you say at face value.
Then you take yet another stab at getting into the heads of circumcised males, a group of people to which you (probably) do not belong. Claiming that circumcision leads to an inferiority complex is amazing. What's ludicrous is that you do it without sourcing any study whatsoever. Even if you know a circumcised male that feels inferior because of his lack of foreskin, generalizing that feeling to all circumcised males and then extrapolating that out to make sense of behavior you don't approve of is an incredible leap of (il)logic.
Basically, the hygiene myth only applies when you don't take showers every day and can't/don't retract the foreskin and clean the area. In a country like this where you have all that stuff, the only inconvenience is taking 30 seconds each shower. What do you get in exchange? Day to day comfort and a dick that isn't callused and scarred. Both partners also have a lot more pleasure in sex.
Need I remind you that there are, in fact, many places in the world where a daily shower is unheard of? In fact, the U.N. classifies nearly fifty countries as LDCs, or less-developed countries. I believe this would suit the criteria of defining places where the "hygiene myth" would in fact apply. And if you take the time to read, you will notice that said list does not include the likes of India and China, two countries with roughly 1/3 of the world's population between them, many of whom have little to no access to showers. And of course we have the niggling trouble of the unsourced assertion that "both partners have a lot more pleasure in sex".
I think I have said enough.
Note: this comment was edited for content (removing some of the more personal-attack stuff that was heat-of-the-moment and ill-advised).
Thank you very much for your well constructed and thought out post. I share the same sentiments.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
The mother and father made the choice to have a child.
The son didn't make the choice to be circumcised. Stupid argument is stupid
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
Again, circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. The damage is considerably more severe in even in the most minor cases.
On September 09 2011 13:29 resonant23 wrote: Ive been circumcised my whole life, no problems here. sex, fap etc all great!!
But have you ever been uncut and remembered what it was like? You don't have perspective...
Have you ever been cut and remembered what it was like? You don't have perspective...
I'm curious, if you wrote this hilarious OP, then realized you wanted it closed, why are you still defending your position and bumping this thread?
So much doesn't make any sense here.
I made this thread because I'm tired of idiots making stupid arguments for circumcision. So I made an admittedly bad OP. Then I realized that I can never win on the internet and that this thread is just one big shitfest.
I am a hypocrite. I can't ignore idiots without addressing them
If you're arguing against circumcision then you should also be arguing that people (majority females, but some males too) under the age of 18 should not be able to get their ears pierced.
Once they turn 18 if they choose to get it done then that is their choice.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
Again, circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. The damage is considerably more severe in even in the most minor cases.
So you're saying then,
that mothers have the right do whatever they want to their child because they had to "go through pain and hardship" so they are allowed to circumcise their child,
but NOT if it's a female because the damage is "more severe in even the most minor cases."
Not sure if the OP stated this....but my uncut brothers should know what I am talking about.
For the guys who are not circumcised, we have foreskin covering the head of the penis. This envelopment serves to keep the head very sensitive by limiting contact with the air. Thus, when we pull the skin back it is extremely sensitive to the touch. However, if we keep it out for long periods of time...we become acclimated with the sensitivity and, not sure the right word for it, but it just loses that "feeling".
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
How far does that right extend? Can they have other cosmetic medical procedures performed? Can they have their child tattooed? Can they inflict physical pain on their child for no good reason? Can they sexually assault their child? You need to both clearly state exactly where the line lies and exactly why that is.
Parents do not have the right to do whatever they please to their children, I don't know where the hell you could live where that is the case. Children are not the property of their parents, children have basic rights the same as anyone else. There are plenty of laws in place regulating what is and is not acceptable to be done to minors.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
Again, circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. The damage is considerably more severe in even in the most minor cases.
So you're saying that pricking a little drop of blood from a clitoris is worse than amputating a penis?
That's seriously what you're trying to prove? Believe it or not only in very few cases do you ever sew the vagina shut. Of course we're concerned about our little girls. Society is sexist.
On September 09 2011 13:47 Tektos wrote: If you're arguing against circumcision then you should also be arguing that people (majority females, but some males too) under the age of 18 should not be able to get their ears pierced.
Once they turn 18 if they choose to get it done then that is their choice.
1) Ear piercing is not a permanent modification. Ear piercings grow over after a relatively short time of disuse.
2) The main issue here being debated is infant circumcision. Whether a 13-year-old should be circumcised if he wants to is another matter entirely.
On September 09 2011 13:47 Tektos wrote: If you're arguing against circumcision then you should also be arguing that people (majority females, but some males too) under the age of 18 should not be able to get their ears pierced.
Once they turn 18 if they choose to get it done then that is their choice.
I think the age for that could be quite a bit younger, due to the fact that it has less to do with being sexually active and more outward, general appearance for everyone. But it definitely shouldn't be done at the infant stage, and it's also(correct me if I'm wrong) not permanent.
On September 09 2011 13:47 Tektos wrote: If you're arguing against circumcision then you should also be arguing that people (majority females, but some males too) under the age of 18 should not be able to get their ears pierced.
Once they turn 18 if they choose to get it done then that is their choice.
rofl...getting cut and getting your little ears pierced are completely two different things. one can lead to sexual consequences while the other leaves you with a hole in your ear. come on think about it, you are comparing apples and oranges. Plus, he ain't forcing you to not get cut, he is just giving you info on the subject matter.
On September 09 2011 13:47 Tektos wrote: If you're arguing against circumcision then you should also be arguing that people (majority females, but some males too) under the age of 18 should not be able to get their ears pierced.
Once they turn 18 if they choose to get it done then that is their choice.
Do parents have the right to pierce their child's ears without the child's consent? That is the scenario, not the one you lay forth. The issue is not an individual choosing to alter their own body, but someone else deciding to do it to another without their consent.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
If it is unnecessary, then don't give the child a circumcision. If it benefits the child in one way or another, go ahead. I am not going to argue whether or not it is painful because I'm sure it is.circumcision while not necessary for all, is for some. This is a more personal topic than a factual thread with the author not giving any good information as to why it is really performed. i will admit my last post was not exactly the best things to say, but, then again is it really that big of an issue.
On September 09 2011 13:47 Tektos wrote: If you're arguing against circumcision then you should also be arguing that people (majority females, but some males too) under the age of 18 should not be able to get their ears pierced.
Once they turn 18 if they choose to get it done then that is their choice.
Completely different, also the legal age of consent could be argued all over the place(why can I consent to buying cigarettes at this age, why can i drive at this age, etc.. I think it's all bull shit personally, it's pretty obvious each person reaches maturity at a different age, I know some, maybe even myself at 21 that have not reached maturity, who is to say?), I feel like 16 should be about the age you can decide to have the circumcision.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
Again, circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. The damage is considerably more severe in even in the most minor cases.
So you're saying then,
that mothers have the right do whatever they want to their child because they had to "go through pain and hardship" so they are allowed to circumcise their child,
but NOT if it's a female because the damage is "more severe in even the most minor cases."
Do you realize your logic makes zero sense?
Sorry, you're quoting someone who isn't me.
No, I'm saying circumcision isn't some horrible disfigurement. It's not cutting off the clitoris. It isn't slicing up your fucking nipples or fingers. It's not tattooing your gang insignia onto your child. Quit it with all these ridiculous comparisons and analogies and bullshit which aren't circumcision and are nothing at all like circumcision. Talk about circumcision.
On September 09 2011 13:29 resonant23 wrote: Ive been circumcised my whole life, no problems here. sex, fap etc all great!!
But have you ever been uncut and remembered what it was like? You don't have perspective...
Have you ever been cut and remembered what it was like? You don't have perspective...
I'm curious, if you wrote this hilarious OP, then realized you wanted it closed, why are you still defending your position and bumping this thread?
So much doesn't make any sense here.
I made this thread because I'm tired of idiots making stupid arguments for circumcision. So I made an admittedly bad OP. Then I realized that I can never win on the internet and that this thread is just one big shitfest.
I am a hypocrite. I can't ignore idiots without addressing them
I wish today had never happened...
Objectively speaking you addressed them in an incredibly idiotic manner, and continue to do so. Still doesn't make sense now that you've explained it. The way to deal with idiots is to ignore and avoid them, not become one and spread idiocy. Next time you decide to create an OP that is sure to get into flaming territory try citing sources, try not stating opinions as facts, and try leaving your personal bias out of it or at least don't use it as pretend facts.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
If it is unnecessary, then don't give the child a circumcision. If it benefits the child in one way or another, go ahead.
These statements are contradictory. Do you understand the meaning of the word "necessary"?
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
How far does that right extend? Can they have other cosmetic medical procedures performed? Can they have their child tattooed? Can they inflict physical pain on their child for no good reason? Can they sexually assault their child? You need to both clearly state exactly where the line lies and exactly why that is.
Parents do not have the right to do whatever they please to their children, I don't know where the hell you could live where that is the case. Children are not the property of their parents, children have basic rights the same as anyone else. There are plenty of laws in place regulating what is and is not acceptable to be done to minors.
I just want to say I 100% respect your counter-argument, unlike a lot of others who's arguments are either ad hominem's or hypocritical. I think you nailed the problem on the head it's where does the extent of "the right of the child" extend.
Personally, as I've previously stated, with sexual sensitivity being such a subjective argument I think that going through this surgery at such a young age is reasonable for parents to decide. Another counter-arguement was that there are sometimes fatal issues with the surgery. From my understanding these issues are just as rare as the people being saved from fatal diseases from the surgery (if it kills 1 and saves 1 how can you argue whether or not to do it?). Please correct me if I'm wrong, too lazy to browse such a topic.
I wouldn't want my child to get circumcised because they have no say whatsoever in the decision and it is a big decision. The benefits of getting circumcised are just not good enough to make it a necessity.
On September 09 2011 13:21 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: [quote] Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
Again, circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. The damage is considerably more severe in even in the most minor cases.
So you're saying then,
that mothers have the right do whatever they want to their child because they had to "go through pain and hardship" so they are allowed to circumcise their child,
but NOT if it's a female because the damage is "more severe in even the most minor cases."
Do you realize your logic makes zero sense?
Sorry, you're quoting someone who isn't me.
No, I'm saying circumcision isn't some horrible disfigurement. It's not cutting off the clitoris. It isn't slicing up your fucking nipples or fingers. It's not tattooing your gang insignia onto your child. Quit it with all these ridiculous comparisons and analogies and bullshit which aren't circumcision and are nothing at all like circumcision. Talk about circumcision.
But it's the same basic concept, it's just a difference in extremity.
1. It permanently alters a childs physical appearance.
2. The child goes through great physical pain during the procedure
3. It is medically unnecessary
These 3 statements are factual. The question is where the line should be drawn. To what extent should parents be allowed to alter the appearance of their child? To what extent should they be allowed to inflict unnecessary physical pain on their child?
Unless there are some very good medical reasons for it, I see absolutely no reason why an infant should have to go through such a procedure.
Rather than responding to each of you individually, take the relevant points in response to your own from below The two issues (ears vs. penis) are far from being completely different:
1) It is modifying your child's body without their consent. 2) Circumcision is also not a permanent modification, there are links in OP which talk about ways to regrow the foreskin. 3) Piercing your ears can lead to horrible infections and the like. It is not risk-free.
My point was specifically that: Stop arguing about circumcision specifically, it only leads to horrible flame-ridden threads like this one. Your arguments should be that a parent modifying their child's body without the child's consent is wrong regardless of what the modification is. If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
On September 09 2011 13:21 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: [quote] Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
Just as they hold the right to circumcise their female child?
Again, circumcision is not the same thing as FGM. The damage is considerably more severe in even in the most minor cases.
So you're saying then,
that mothers have the right do whatever they want to their child because they had to "go through pain and hardship" so they are allowed to circumcise their child,
but NOT if it's a female because the damage is "more severe in even the most minor cases."
Do you realize your logic makes zero sense?
Sorry, you're quoting someone who isn't me.
No, I'm saying circumcision isn't some horrible disfigurement. It's not cutting off the clitoris. It isn't slicing up your fucking nipples or fingers. It's not tattooing your gang insignia onto your child. Quit it with all these ridiculous comparisons and analogies and bullshit which aren't circumcision and are nothing at all like circumcision. Talk about circumcision.
You are amputating without medical necessity. That in and of itself rests on an entirely different plane.
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
My point was specifically that: If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
Really? A hole in your ear (which can heal) VS CUTTING OFF A PIECE OF A BABIES COCK?
One of the main reasons why people consider getting their child circumcised is because of the fact that it may reduce the transmission of HIV from female to male, but HIV is mainly transmitted from male to female. So the benefit that you might get won't really matter since women are not really the ones giving HIV to people.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Birth is sort of necessary, circumcision is not, big difference there.
No difference at all. Birth isn't necessary, just like abortion.
You can't see the difference between circumcision, an unnecessary medical procedure, and birth, something that is required for the continued survival of the entire fucking human race?
You are either a troll or incredibly stupid.
Am I? So if I have 2 kids, is having a third child necessary? There are plenty of couples who decide not to have children, but we are still overpopulated.
My point was that if a mother (and father to an extent) have to go through pain and hardship to bear a child they hold the right to circumcise their child.
How far does that right extend? Can they have other cosmetic medical procedures performed? Can they have their child tattooed? Can they inflict physical pain on their child for no good reason? Can they sexually assault their child? You need to both clearly state exactly where the line lies and exactly why that is.
Parents do not have the right to do whatever they please to their children, I don't know where the hell you could live where that is the case. Children are not the property of their parents, children have basic rights the same as anyone else. There are plenty of laws in place regulating what is and is not acceptable to be done to minors.
I just want to say I 100% respect your counter-argument, unlike a lot of others who's arguments are either ad hominem's or hypocritical. I think you nailed the problem on the head it's where does the extent of "the right of the child" extend.
Personally, as I've previously stated, with sexual sensitivity being such a subjective argument I think that going through this surgery at such a young age is reasonable for parents to decide. Another counter-arguement was that there are sometimes fatal issues with the surgery. From my understanding these issues are just as rare as the people being saved from fatal diseases from the surgery (if it kills 1 and saves 1 how can you argue whether or not to do it?). Please correct me if I'm wrong, too lazy to browse such a topic.
with sexual sensitivity being such a subjective argument I think that going through this surgery at such a young age is reasonable for parents to decide.
What? How is that reasonable for parents to decide? You said sexual sensitivity is subjective-so how on earth are the parents capable of deciding that for the child?
My primary argument isn't about the health benefits/downsides to it, it's about the fact that the parents are permanently altering a child's penis without their consent.
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
Rather than responding to each of you individually, take the relevant points in response to your own from below The two issues (ears vs. penis) are far from being completely different:
1) It is modifying your child's body without their consent. 2) Circumcision is also not a permanent modification, there are links in OP which talk about ways to regrow the foreskin. 3) Piercing your ears can lead to horrible infections and the like.
My point was specifically that: Stop arguing about circumcision specifically, it only leads to horrible flame-ridden threads like this one. Your arguments should be that a parent modifying their child's body without the child's consent is wrong regardless of what the modification is. If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
For all intents and purposes, it is permanent. Why? Because the nerve endings don't regrow. All you get back are looks and protection.
OP is full of bullshit. Cut here No inferiority No suppressed resentment Sex is fucking awesome
Yeah a child cries when you cut a little bit of skin off. A child fucking cries when it falls on its ass.
Oh, and btw, any REAL arguments either for or against it? Cuz I haven't heard any... All I have seen in this thread is a bunch of "morality issues" and lack of understanding.
Arguments against it tend to be: 1. It hurts 2. It isn't hard to clean 3. It isn't annoying 4. It isn't necessary most of the time 5. I think it would be weird 6. YOU CAN DIE FROM IT 7. It would be scarred, calloused, makes you feel inferior and resentful, the process is evil and would release demons into the world. 8. Because the kid can't choose
None of these hold water. 1. On a baby on a sensitive part of the body? Yeah probably. So? It's a baby... Parents give consent, kid will never remember, pain is temporary, the procedure is safe, and causes no negative effects. So what? 2. This is not an argument for you. This is a counter argument. Doesn't work. 3. This is not an argument for you. This is a counter argument. Doesn't work. 4. Has no negative effects. It's not necessary most of the time, and it will not affect the baby in any way. The baby will still grow up with his wang, he will enjoy his wang, and his partners will still enjoy his wang. What's the issue? 5. Subjective. I know many people who think the other way. 6. You can die from a scrape on your knee. If you are a fucking idiot about it, and go in with scissors and paper towel, then yeah, you can die from it. 7. All bullshit. 8. So? Kid can't choose anything... That's why he has parents. If it has no ill effects then who cares?
There are no VALID arguments for or against it other than moral ones. Morals are individual. I believe there is NOTHING WRONG with circumcision (and nothing wrong with not circumcising), because there are no ill effects in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases. You believe circumcision must be illegal because... why? Some arbitrary moral opinion with no backing. Most uncircumcised males will think it is a horrible abhorrent practice, while most circumcised people will not give a shit either way. What does that say?
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
My point was specifically that: If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
Really? A hole in your ear (which can heal) VS CUTTING OFF A PIECE OF A BABIES COCK?
I...Don't....
A hole in your ear (which can heal, get infected, hurts to get done, many other points) vs. surgically removing a piece of skin from around the genitalia of your child.
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
Rather than responding to each of you individually, take the relevant points in response to your own from below The two issues (ears vs. penis) are far from being completely different:
1) It is modifying your child's body without their consent. 2) Circumcision is also not a permanent modification, there are links in OP which talk about ways to regrow the foreskin. 3) Piercing your ears can lead to horrible infections and the like.
My point was specifically that: Stop arguing about circumcision specifically, it only leads to horrible flame-ridden threads like this one. Your arguments should be that a parent modifying their child's body without the child's consent is wrong regardless of what the modification is. If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
For all intents and purposes, it is permanent. Why? Because the nerve endings don't regrow. All you get back are looks and protection.
Your argument through the whole thread has been that no protection around the glans = calluses = less pleasure. This is arguable at best because there have been numerous people posting how they feel amazing pleasure during sex regardless of being cut or not.
This should mean that regrowing the skin (and hence protection) should therefor result in the calluses going away and the person receiving pleasure again.
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
My point was specifically that: If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
Really? A hole in your ear (which can heal) VS CUTTING OFF A PIECE OF A BABIES COCK?
I...Don't....
Circumcision has been proven to have at least some medical purpose, piercing their ears does not have any purpose other than aesthetic.
Interesting and informative OP. I often remind my mom of her mistake getting my special skin snipped. Interestingly enough I thought everyone was snipped that wasn't Jewish until I went to college and saw that was not the case. I just wonder what it would be like to be more sensitive. I don't plan on getting my kids circumcised.
Since you're so smug about your "analysis" of the OP, sephirotharg, allow me to deconstruct your response.
On September 09 2011 13:16 sephirotharg wrote: Fair enough. I suppose I deserved to have the thread closed. It was a dick move (see what I did there?) to start my own reply thread. So without further ado, I give you my reply to this thread:
The sad part about this post is the fact that it will likely convince absolutely nobody to change their position on circumcision either way. That said, when I see an obviously biased "information" piece I tend to react strongly (the author of the original thread does not explicitly indicate either way the status of his penis, and presents his information as fact). This issue evokes a particularly strong reaction in me, being as I am circumcised. So you can well guess that I am biased in this matter as well, though I'm up-front about that fact. What I intend to do is offer a step-by-step rebuttal of the original post, and see where the discussion goes from there.
This word evokes mixed feelings in people. On one hand we're supposedly reducing the risk of STDs, Penile cancer, and other various genital diseases for our precious little boys. On another hand, it's widely believed that by doing this to our little girls we are putting them through tremendous pain and agony.
This is a complaint you will hear me level many, many times throughout this analysis: source please! The author speaks of a mystical "we", making no attempt to define who this "we" is. Are those contending the health benefits of male infant circumcision respected medicinal practitioners, or middle-school students? Precision of language is necessary if we are to present facts as they exist. Without sources for your claims (or rather, your claim that someone else is claiming health benefits of circumcision), we cannot evaluate them objectively. Proper definition of subjects is crucial to discussion.
What people don't realize is that whether it's a girl or a boy, it still hurts like fucking hell. In about 95% of the circumcision videos I've watched (even the ones with applied anasthetic) the baby almost always shrieks with agony. Some say that this is the baby crying because it's restrained. This is not true. I have been to visit my baby cousin, and as a test, I pushed back his legs and held them there as I saw in the videos. He only protested mildly. In almost every circumcision video, when the procedure actually begins and the foreskin is amputated, the shrieking escalates tenfold.
Wait a second. The author says circumcision "hurts like fucking hell", but does not provide any solid, empirical evidence. And we can assume that the author is uncircumcised (if he/she is not, feel free to correct me). Therefore, having never experienced it him/herself, how can the author speak to the pain of a circumcision? "Well", you say to yourself, "there are empirical ways to measure pain". To which I reply that there most certainly are. But does the author cite any study using these measurements? No. Instead he/she (hereafter I will refer to the author as a he, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary) cites a nebulous figure of "95% of the circumcision videos I've watched" and goes on to explain that "the baby almost always shrieks with agony". 95% is quite high; the information we are lacking is how many videos the author watched. If they watched 3, that is very different from watching 3,000 videos. Perhaps an even more egregious sin than finessing statistics is the fact that the author uses anecdotal evidence, ass opposed to empirical evidence. It's quite possible that the author chose to watch mostly those videos that showed a child shrieking in pain; but a few incidents of children in pain does not a pattern make. Now if there were to be some empirical, procedurally-rigorousscientific study examining this subject, we could establish that pattern. However, you fail to back up your assertion that circumcision results in screaming babies. If you look at the studies I have provided, you will see that circumcision does in fact produce pain in children; however, these same studies point to effective measures that can be employed to lessen the pain and trauma. The author also contends that the screaming must be caused by the procedure, to which I reply: correlation does not causation make. It is possible (despite your roundly unscientific experiment presenting "evidence" to the contrary) that being restrained causes the children to cry; or perhaps the stress of being surrounded by unfamiliar people wearing outlandish garb causes a stress reaction; or the absence of the child's mother causes him to cry; or the coldness of the operating table; or hunger; or many other variables that may combine to cause crying during circumcision. Just because the two often occur simultaneously does not mean that the one must be caused by the other.
As much as I appreciate you linking peer reviewed studies, I find it ridiculous that you're using the correlation != causation on screaming babies that just had a part of their penis sliced off.
I mean honestly. If I sliced a part of your penis off, without anaesthesia, do you think that it would not be painful? Are you seriously questioning whether circumcision is painful, and putting forth doubt that infants that have just had a part of their penis cut off are crying because the operating table is cold? Unbelievable.
Stop. Citing and quoting Wikipedia? Really? There's a reason that colleges tend not to accept Wikipedia as cite-able material. For that same reason we should not use it even to give us definitions. Instead, let's agree to use a much more trusted and decidedly less-openly-editable resource: the Mayo Clinic.
Circumcision is the surgical removal of the skin covering the tip of the penis. Circumcision is fairly common for newborn boys in certain parts of the world, including the United States — making it the most common surgical procedure in newborn males worldwide. Circumcision after the newborn period is a more complicated procedure that may require general anesthesia.
The basics of circumcision: Did you know that... Medical infant male circumcision was initially introduced to curb masturbation? (source from The Intactivism Pages)
I'll say this criticism once, as it applies to every bullet point within your list: no source. You say that this information comes from the Inactivism Pages, yet you provide no link directly to the information, instead pointing us to the general website link at the bottom of your post. Rigorous standards must be upheld when citing informative (and supposedly authoritative) material, whether this be a college paper or a forum post. Also, I see no real support for the author's argument in this tidbit. Scientific theories change all the time, and old suppositions are tossed out as new evidence comes in. I'm not surprised that it was espoused as a cure for masturbation in olden days; the fact that it was advertised as such bears no relevance on the discussion.
He may not have quoted his source, but it's historical knowledge that circumcision was introduced in America to curb masturbation, during the Victorean era. In fact, it can be traced directly to an individual -- Kellogg -- from the same family that sells your Frosted Flakes.
The claim that circumcision protects against HIV is based on 5,400 circumcisions protecting (perhaps) just 73 men. This is protecting a tiny amount of 0.014% of all uncircumcised men. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Well, for all my cries for objectivity and empirical studies, I have to get a little subjective here. Frankly, I would prefer pain when I'm a newborn to early death due to HIV. And according to the facts you cite, circumcision does in fact protect people from HIV. If circumcision can save even one person from HIV, I would favor circumcision. After all, we would all agree that protection for some is better than protection for none, yes? And because I value empiricism in my debates, here's an interesting quote for you to examine:
While being noncircumcised did not increase the likelihood of HIV and most STI infections, results indicated that circumcision was associated with higher rates of condom use, suggesting that those who promote condoms among MSM may need to better understand condom-related behaviors and attitudes among noncircumcised men to enhance the extent to which they are willing to use condoms consistently.
So the fact remains that even if circumcision in and of itself does not increase protection against HIV, circumcision and proven HIV-protective measures (namely condom use) have been found to be correlated. And I suppose I should add that studies have been done after the one which you cite, studies that include much larger sample sizes (such as the one I sourced above, which studied approximately 26,000 men). So disqualifying evidence based on small sample size should no longer be a problem.
Sure, you pointed out a significant correlation. But this has nothing to do with policy or bioethics, given the very nature of medicine in practice as opposed to peer reviewed journals in epidemiology. Furthermore, you are extrapolating far beyond the original reports in using results from a controlled study in Subsaharan Africa to the industrialized world. Mind you, in the US, where most people are circumcised, there is a significantly higher HIV percentage (as well as other STDs) than any other industrialized country in Europe where the majority are uncircumcised.
That should put into perspective how minuscule any protection circumcision provides, if at all.
Circumcision provides no protection at all for gay men or woman. (source from The Intactivism Pages)
Wait, what? I'm sorry, but when did this turn into an issue of sexual orientation? I will grant you that in the United States new HIV cases occur more frequently in MSM (men who have sex with men) than any other group; yet, the percentage is only 53% of new cases among MSM, with nearly half of new cases reported each year belonging to groups other than gay men. So the largely unjustified (and to be fair, implied) accusation in this statement that HIV is a gay disease is patently untrue. Furthermore, I could find no evidence that remaining intact protects anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, from HIV any more so than does circumcision. So even if circumcision provided gay men and women no additional protection (a hypothesis which I personally doubt), the two states of penile intactness (if you will) are even in the protection provided, or lack thereof.
There is heavy hemorrhaging and possibly fatal bloodloss during some circumcisions.
No source. I will grant you that the possibility of blood loss during circumcision does exits, but the incidence of death during circumcision is two deaths per million circumcisions, a much lower fatality rate than a relatively safe activity, driving. The NHTSA estimates eleven traffic related fatalities per 100,000 people in the USA in 2009, a much higher rate of occurrence than death by circumcision.
So the deaths from circumcision are probably equivalent from the amount of lives saved from circumcision, then -- which is to say, not very many at all.
The biggest reason is the psychological factor. Most men born in the mid 1900's are circumcised. Now that generation is about 40 and 50, which means they probably had kids in the 80's, 90's, and 00's. In today's society, with all this information, we know that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure. It also has a 50% chance of narrowing of the urethra, which can lead to many other complications. Such as keratinization of the glans. Most importantly, Sexual satisfaction is greatly reduced. This engenders feelings of inferiority in Circumcised men.
This inferiority is a strong feeling in circumcised men. They don't want to be reminded of what they lost, so they circumcise their sons and convince themselves that being circumcised is normal. If circumcised men could control these irrational feelings and not circumcise their children, accepting and understanding what they lost, there would be a lower circumcision rate. I believe that these people try and find 'evidence' or 'excuses' to circumcise. Hence the HIV prevention myth.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on there a second. You say that circumcision has very negative effects on sexual pleasure, yet have no citations or evidence to back that up. Cite a source. I imagine you are thinking of the Inactivism Pages study that finds that the foreskin is the most sensitive area of the penis. Be that as it may, penis sensitivity is only one factor in attaining sexual pleasure. The (perceived) attractiveness of one's partner, the presence or absence of foreplay, the various implements and medicines used, and in some cases the presence of genuine love are but a few factors that can contribute to sexual pleasure.
You also fail to cite a source for your assertion that circumcision can narrow the urethra. If you don't have a source, I can't take what you say at face value.
Then you take yet another stab at getting into the heads of circumcised males, a group of people to which you (probably) do not belong. Claiming that circumcision leads to an inferiority complex is amazing. What's ludicrous is that you do it without sourcing any study whatsoever. Even if you know a circumcised male that feels inferior because of his lack of foreskin, generalizing that feeling to all circumcised males and then extrapolating that out to make sense of behavior you don't approve of is an incredible leap of (il)logic.
Basically, the hygiene myth only applies when you don't take showers every day and can't/don't retract the foreskin and clean the area. In a country like this where you have all that stuff, the only inconvenience is taking 30 seconds each shower. What do you get in exchange? Day to day comfort and a dick that isn't callused and scarred. Both partners also have a lot more pleasure in sex.
Need I remind you that there are, in fact, many places in the world where a daily shower is unheard of? In fact, the U.N. classifies nearly fifty countries as LDCs, or less-developed countries. I believe this would suit the criteria of defining places where the "hygiene myth" would in fact apply. And if you take the time to read, you will notice that said list does not include the likes of India and China, two countries with roughly 1/3 of the world's population between them, many of whom have little to no access to showers. And of course we have the niggling trouble of the unsourced assertion that "both partners have a lot more pleasure in sex".
And I guess your logical reasoning is:
We should be circumcising males in poor countries where they don't have access to clean water and showers.
Instead of actually helping people in poor countries get access to clean water and showers.
Which speaks for itself -- you'd rather defend your penis and be a white knight for circumcision than actually help with children's rights and development.
I think I have said enough.
Note: this comment was edited for content (removing some of the more personal-attack stuff that was heat-of-the-moment and ill-advised).
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
Rather than responding to each of you individually, take the relevant points in response to your own from below The two issues (ears vs. penis) are far from being completely different:
1) It is modifying your child's body without their consent. 2) Circumcision is also not a permanent modification, there are links in OP which talk about ways to regrow the foreskin. 3) Piercing your ears can lead to horrible infections and the like. It is not risk-free.
My point was specifically that: Stop arguing about circumcision specifically, it only leads to horrible flame-ridden threads like this one. Your arguments should be that a parent modifying their child's body without the child's consent is wrong regardless of what the modification is. If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
I do think that getting an infant's ear pierced is wrong, but it also isn't as permanent(it grows back on its own relatively quickly and without any specific recovery procedure)and doesn't affect sex(opinions on this are mixed, but either way not for the parent to decide). This makes it a much less serious issue than circumcision and consent could/should be allowed at a much younger age than consent for circumcision. I don't support infant ear piercing, but it's much less serious than circumcision
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
If it is unnecessary, then don't give the child a circumcision. If it benefits the child in one way or another, go ahead.
These statements are contradictory. Do you understand the meaning of the word "necessary"?
yes i do. it is something that is needed or absolutely essential. some men were born with genitalia problems like the the foreskin doesn't retract and can often be very painful later in life for the man. others foreskin gets in the way during urination getting urine in troublesome places. not to mention that the most common penile disorders involve the foreskin, which is a fact. therefore, i will keep the "necessary for some not all" as long as it has some long term benefit for that child getting the procedure, not for cosmetic reasons, nor because of some inferiority from the father or father-like figure like some of the posters are saying. if circumcision is necessary during the infant stage, which is rare enough as it is, then i have no problem with it.
lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Why would someone subject their child to such a surgery if it doesn't have significant health benefits? And it honestly better not be because "Well I have that right as the parent, because I went through pain to give birth to him." Well you took away his "right" of not being born to begin with.
I hear masturbation without lube is easier for uncircumcised men. Foreskin as the barrier between rough hands and the penis. If it is "supposedly" the same feeling, the penis would naturally need to develop less sensitive skin. It's clearly demonstrated when a boy grows up with an uncircumcised penis, and hasn't retracted their foreskin. The penis is extremely sensitive to touch and needs several weeks adjusting to the retraction.
8. So? Kid can't choose anything... That's why he has parents. If it has no ill effects then who cares?
There are no VALID arguments for or against it other than moral ones. Morals are individual. I believe there is NOTHING WRONG with circumcision (and nothing wrong with not circumcising), because there are no ill effects in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases. You believe circumcision must be illegal because... why? Some arbitrary moral opinion with no backing. Most uncircumcised males will think it is a horrible abhorrent practice, while most circumcised people will not give a shit either way. What does that say?
It may have no ill effects, but it doesn't have any proven positive effects either, which means the only reason to possibly have it are for religious, cosmetic, or sexual reasons, which are all things that should be decided by the son when he's old enough, not by the parents. It's not like circumcision can be only performed when the baby is an infant.
On September 09 2011 14:00 Tektos wrote: @matjlav, Josealtron, Highlight, Mothra, BlueBird.
Rather than responding to each of you individually, take the relevant points in response to your own from below The two issues (ears vs. penis) are far from being completely different:
1) It is modifying your child's body without their consent. 2) Circumcision is also not a permanent modification, there are links in OP which talk about ways to regrow the foreskin. 3) Piercing your ears can lead to horrible infections and the like. It is not risk-free.
My point was specifically that: Stop arguing about circumcision specifically, it only leads to horrible flame-ridden threads like this one. Your arguments should be that a parent modifying their child's body without the child's consent is wrong regardless of what the modification is. If you hold the stance that circumcising a an infant is wrong but getting an infant's ears pierced isn't you're simply being hypocritical.
I do think that getting an infant's ear pierced is wrong, but it also isn't as permanent(it grows back on its own relatively quickly and without any specific recovery procedure)and doesn't affect sex(opinions on this are mixed, but either way not for the parent to decide). This makes it a much less serious issue than circumcision and consent could/should be allowed at a much younger age than consent for circumcision. I don't support infant ear piercing, but it's much less serious than circumcision
And that is your personal opinion, which not everyone shares. Based on many of the responses to this thread it is quite arguable that it does not negatively effect sex (and based on some accounts, increases pleasure for the female involved). This being the case why should it matter how permanent the procedure is if there are no significant negative effects from having it done? (which is quite indeed plausible, but please do not take this as me trying to convey this as fact).
So it comes down to is, the OP feels very passionately about his opinion and hence starts screaming: "HERE IS MY OPINION, IF IT IS DIFFERENT THAN YOURS HERE ARE SOME HORRIBLY BIASED SOURCES WHICH MEANS YOU SHOULD ADHERE TO MY OPINION AND DISREGARD YOUR OWN". If he had have maintained relative neutrality (as much as possible, given his strong opinion on the subject) while quoting sources that were as unbiased as possible and left blatant lies out of it (the parts about inferiority complex - that was ridiculous garbage) it would have resulted in much better discussion about the subject.
Instead it has turned into a relative shitfest of - (circumcised poster): "Hows your stinky dick and not being able to pleasure a woman properly? /trollface" (uncircumcised poster): "Hows your lack of sexual pleasure, cut guys? /trollface"
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
If it is unnecessary, then don't give the child a circumcision. If it benefits the child in one way or another, go ahead.
These statements are contradictory. Do you understand the meaning of the word "necessary"?
yes i do. it is something that is needed or absolutely essential. some men were born with genitalia problems like the the foreskin doesn't retract and can often be very painful later in life for the man. others foreskin gets in the way during urination getting urine in troublesome places. not to mention that the most common penile disorders involve the foreskin, which is a fact. therefore, i will keep the "necessary for some not all" as long as it has some long term benefit for that child getting the procedure, not for cosmetic reasons, nor because of some inferiority from the father or father-like figure like some of the posters are saying. if circumcision is necessary during the infant stage, which is rare enough as it is, then i have no problem with it.
I suffered from phimosis myself and can tell you something as drastic as circumcision is almost never required to treat it. In almost all cases simple stretching exercises and creams are enough, in more extreme cases some minor surgery (not circumcision) will be resorted to. In only a tiny, tiny minority of cases, if ever, is circumcision a necessity.
And it's not something you can be born with. The foreskin can't retract at all at that point. There is absolutely no way of knowing at worth whether the condition will or will not develop until later.
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
Because there is no other way to rationalize the action.
For what reason would you ever intentionally inflict physical harm on a child?
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
Because there is no other way to rationalize the action.
For what reason would you ever intentionally inflict physical harm on a child?
No other way than what?
Why does reason matter? If you are making the argument that it's no big deal because it won't be remembered, then why do I need a reason in the first place? There should be no objection or cause for me to explain myself.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
If it is unnecessary, then don't give the child a circumcision. If it benefits the child in one way or another, go ahead.
These statements are contradictory. Do you understand the meaning of the word "necessary"?
yes i do. it is something that is needed or absolutely essential. some men were born with genitalia problems like the the foreskin doesn't retract and can often be very painful later in life for the man. others foreskin gets in the way during urination getting urine in troublesome places. not to mention that the most common penile disorders involve the foreskin, which is a fact. therefore, i will keep the "necessary for some not all" as long as it has some long term benefit for that child getting the procedure, not for cosmetic reasons, nor because of some inferiority from the father or father-like figure like some of the posters are saying. if circumcision is necessary during the infant stage, which is rare enough as it is, then i have no problem with it.
I suffered from phimosis myself and can tell you something as drastic as circumcision is almost never required to treat it. In almost all cases simple stretching exercises and creams are enough, in more extreme cases some minor surgery (not circumcision) will be resorted to. In only a tiny, tiny minority of cases, if ever, is circumcision a necessity.
And it's not something you can be born with. The foreskin can't retract at all at that point. There is absolutely no way of knowing at worth whether the condition will or will not develop until later.
you have your opinions on this topic and i have mine. if you think it is that useless of a procedure then fine, but don't go and attack it like some of the other posters. it is nothing more than an option at birth and later at life. i am no medical expert, nor am i a doctor, but at least, thanks to my circumcision, i wont get phimosis.
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
Because there is no other way to rationalize the action.
For what reason would you ever intentionally inflict physical harm on a child?
The reason that you would intentionally cause temporary physical pain to a child is if the benefits resulting from that outweigh the temporary pain.
Are there benefits though? That is what nobody can agree on.
On September 09 2011 13:18 GypsyBeast wrote: why are you on a personal crusade agenst circumcision? maybe just keep you're nose out of other peoples junk. seems like it would be better for everyone
Tell that to the parents who do this to their kids.
They had the kid, not you. There's no significant, NEGATIVE impact of being circumcised. NONE. If you're arguing that it's painful therefore the child shouldn't be subjected to it, well then he/she probably shouldn't have been subjected to birth either.
Thank you! people in this post think circumcision should be banned just because it is painful to the infant, but what about the parents. the woman who had to give birth to the freaken child has the right to care for their child the she wants or needs to, not to mention the pain of childbirth. We do not need government or any other type of ruling body imposing themselves the second your child is born.
Giving birth to a child gives you the right to inflict unnecessary physical pain on it?
Where the fuck do you live where that is the case?
If it is unnecessary, then don't give the child a circumcision. If it benefits the child in one way or another, go ahead.
These statements are contradictory. Do you understand the meaning of the word "necessary"?
yes i do. it is something that is needed or absolutely essential. some men were born with genitalia problems like the the foreskin doesn't retract and can often be very painful later in life for the man. others foreskin gets in the way during urination getting urine in troublesome places. not to mention that the most common penile disorders involve the foreskin, which is a fact. therefore, i will keep the "necessary for some not all" as long as it has some long term benefit for that child getting the procedure, not for cosmetic reasons, nor because of some inferiority from the father or father-like figure like some of the posters are saying. if circumcision is necessary during the infant stage, which is rare enough as it is, then i have no problem with it.
I suffered from phimosis myself and can tell you something as drastic as circumcision is almost never required to treat it. In almost all cases simple stretching exercises and creams are enough, in more extreme cases some minor surgery (not circumcision) will be resorted to. In only a tiny, tiny minority of cases, if ever, is circumcision a necessity.
And it's not something you can be born with. The foreskin can't retract at all at that point. There is absolutely no way of knowing at worth whether the condition will or will not develop until later.
you have your opinions on this topic and i have mine. if you think it is that useless of a procedure then fine, but don't go and attack it like some of the other posters. it is nothing more than an option at birth and later at life. i am no medical expert, nor am i a doctor, but at least, thanks to my circumcision, i wont get phimosis.
You previously stated that unless it is necessary then it shouldn't be done. That happens to be my opinion on the subject.
Unless you have changed your mind? You have contradicted yourself many times already and I'm just attempting to straighten things out.
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
Because there is no other way to rationalize the action.
For what reason would you ever intentionally inflict physical harm on a child?
The reason that you would intentionally cause temporary physical pain to a child is if the benefits resulting from that outweigh the temporary pain.
Are there benefits though? That is what nobody can agree on.
All the medical associations in the industrial world can agree on it, though -- they say that the benefits do not outweigh the risks, and that is why routine circumcision is not recommended by any medical body in the Western world.
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
Because there is no other way to rationalize the action.
For what reason would you ever intentionally inflict physical harm on a child?
The reason that you would intentionally cause temporary physical pain to a child is if the benefits resulting from that outweigh the temporary pain.
Are there benefits though? That is what nobody can agree on.
All the medical associations in the industrial world can agree on it, though -- they say that the benefits do not outweigh the risks, and that is why routine circumcision is not recommended by any medical body in the Western world.
They agree on the MEDICAL benefits. There are arguably other benefits though.
On September 09 2011 14:12 v3chr0 wrote: lol, so much emphasis on how much pain it causes. I can nearly guarantee the baby will not remember the pain, procedure or even the fkin month it happened in.
Is it ok for me to inflict unnecessary physical pain on a baby so long as it causes no long term damage? Of course not, that's child abuse.
I don't understand why so many people are attempting to downplay the pain aspect of it.
The "It's ok because he won't remember it" argument wouldn't hold up in any other context.
Because there is no other way to rationalize the action.
For what reason would you ever intentionally inflict physical harm on a child?
The reason that you would intentionally cause temporary physical pain to a child is if the benefits resulting from that outweigh the temporary pain.
Are there benefits though? That is what nobody can agree on.
All the medical associations in the industrial world can agree on it, though -- they say that the benefits do not outweigh the risks, and that is why routine circumcision is not recommended by any medical body in the Western world.
They agree on the MEDICAL benefits. There are arguably other benefits though.