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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 14:18 Kisezik wrote:
This has got to be the best patch ever released and the most game changing. As a Zerg player, i felt that fungal and NP was indeed too strong and felt that massing infestors and lings didn't require any skill at all and was indeed imbalanced.
Despite all the biased opinions coming from the zergs, i really wish the NP nerf goes through. I really think this will change the metagame for the good. Especially ZvP, and Zerg vs Terran Mech
You don't play Zerg, stop the trolling.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Wish Destiny was streaming, would love to hear what he would have to say about this :D
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On September 09 2011 14:20 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:20 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:18 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 14:13 Dommk wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:58 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:56 kheldorin wrote:On September 09 2011 13:51 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:48 desrow wrote:
[quote]
dood there's something wrong with you YES on paper they have the same range BUT the "AOE" of fungal hits further than feedback dont make me go in game and use paint WTF are u that dumb ? not as dumb as someone who equates forum posts with game understanding  yes it's "AOE", so? you can't walk? your HT walk too slow? your HT so alone that opponent can walk the extra 2 range to fungal you? see my point now? it's same range, while you can argue that it adds 2 range cause its AOE, reality is, in battle HTs aren't alone, and infestors can't just walk up to HT straight up. learn to spread out your HT. all your arguments have been bullocks (broodlords, movement speed, etc.). fact is, if opponent got to fungal you, then you did something wrong cause you should be able to feedback him too. What are you talking about?? Infestors are not going to go forward to fungal HTs. They will be fungalling the main army and since the main army is usually faster than the HTs, they will be about 2 hexes infront. Which means in practice the infestors will be in range of the main army while the HTs will be out of range of the infestors. With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players. yup that's exactly my point. read it again (heck, read all the quotes, it's desrow that's pointing out the thing that you're pointing out against lol) Read what you just agreed with again. Here, I'll repost it for you: "With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players." Yeah. Play better and don't get hit by feedbacks. Fungal does actually outrange feedback by virtue of being an aoe. If you can't accept that, you're an idiot. Also, if the high templar are at the front of the army to feedback, you can fungal them. If they are in the back, you can cast your spells before feedback goes off. "but protoss players just have a lot more better micro than zerg players", then it won't be trouble for protoss players to feedback them. that's why i agree. and play better and don't get hit by fungals  "and play better and don't get hit by fungals " ROFL, do you actually play this game? No he actually doesn't, his account has no ladder games played this or last season: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2277952/1/Nomad/Oh, and apparently, according to his TL post, he's platinum. so if i'm platinum...why don't i have ladder games played? something's wrong here... Hey, you're the one with the post on Team Liquid claiming that you are platinum, I just took the account that you posted on Team liquid as belonging to you and looked it up. It says you have no games played this or previous season. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195219#15
nah
http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/183413/1/Nomad/
there we go, he apparently is plat, but only plays 2v2s and 4v4s now. explains a lot
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On September 09 2011 14:22 Jim7 wrote:I feel that if the Corrupter itself didn't feel like such a waste after you get them (Vikings can at least land to harass or help out in battle after the col are dead) this wouldn't be that big of a deal. I always feel that once I get corruptors, if I'm not getting BLs soon I've just got a bunch of wasted supply flying around if the enemy switches away from col tech. They're just so 1 dimensional. I mean, sure they can corrupt things but when you're getting 2-3 Corruptors for every Col you might end up with 9-12 of them. What do you do with them once corruption is used up? They might end up being with the only units that survive after the fight and are basically useless for 45s until the CD is over. Even Dustin Browder has called the Corruptor "lame" and "meh": http://www.gamespot.com/news/6325853/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-qanda-with-dustin-browderShow nested quote +If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story. Give the Corruptor some use that's worthwhile, something that makes people want to build them other than it being the only option. Having a unit feel like dead weight after you've used them because they can't do anything else until the opponent does something isn't very fun.
Completely agree, that's why I think this change might be related to a corruptor change they have in mind.
But the problem isn't just that corruptors are bland, it's also that they aren't very effective at fighting collossi. They're a beefy, 2 armor unit that does decent damage while what zerg need would be a more squeeshy, very high DPS to kill some collossi in time to actually make a difference in the battle. Scourges would work much better than them... or corruption should do something different.
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do zergs not realize that neural is still absurdly good vs tanks? and that roaches assfuck thors?
seriously wtf is all this whining about what a bunch of little girls.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 09 2011 14:21 Spectorials wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:16 Dommk wrote:On September 09 2011 14:13 Spectorials wrote:On September 09 2011 14:10 Sajaki wrote:On September 09 2011 14:09 Spectorials wrote:
A serious question:
What unit WOULD you neural after this change? Can only think of HT or Ghost?
Might as well remove the ability :S? Siege tanks, voidrays and immortals. They're the next biggest ones to come to mind. But you don't build Infestors for 2 out of 3 of those... Also Voidrays its more energy efficient to use fungal and infested terran. Are you saying Zerg only make Infestors for NP? Because virtually EVERY ZvP transitions into Infestor mid/late game, regardless of what the Protoss is going...just because of Fungals. No I'm saying that if their unit composition is heavy Immortal for example then build lots of Infestors is silly. Infestors are built for their utility against units that come out of the same unit producing structures. What I'm saying is that NP on those units is a waste of energy and hence the spell would be useless if they made this change.
"roach immortal is good against stalker" - idra
i guess you know more though?
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I dont think the neural is so bad vs terran. Its so bad vs protoss though. With blink stalkers and the inability to neural collos, its gg.... Now you absolutely HAVE to go broodlords mid/late
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ZERGS: question, would you be okay with np change if it didnt require a upgrade and was only 50 energy?
that would actually be a big buff against tank pushes i think
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On September 09 2011 14:29 mburke05 wrote:
do zergs not realize that neural is still absurdly good vs tanks? and that roaches assfuck thors?
seriously wtf is all this whining about what a bunch of little girls.
Neural is good vs tanks when tanks have range 13? If you're neuraling tanks you're probably way ahead and doing it for the lols... Just to get close to the tanks, your army would have to be attacking to distract them, by which time the tanks are probably dead already (since killing them should be first priority) or your army is dead, meaning NPing the tanks wont help anyway.
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On September 09 2011 14:31 FXOpen wrote:
I dont think the neural is so bad vs terran. Its so bad vs protoss though. With blink stalkers and the inability to neural collos, its gg.... Now you absolutely HAVE to go broodlords mid/late
I think that is a good thing, no? Protoss HAD to go to Templar/Archon tech to deal with Infestors, Zerg should have to tech to Hive to deal with Archon tech too :X
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On September 09 2011 14:26 Spectorials wrote:
Also on top of allllllllll of this discussion...
EMP has a greater range than NP
Feedback has the same range as NP
So basically in the current game it only works on massive units if you FAIL TO EMP OR FEEDBACK.
This is not an imbalance, it's called learning to use the units and abilities you currently have available to you???
So you're saying that it's expected for T/P
to not only have teched and created Collossus/Thor
but to also tech and produce ghosts and HTs at the same time?
Whereas zerg just needs to make one unit to counter any massive unit?
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On September 09 2011 14:25 kheldorin wrote:
Wow, the preemptive whining by the Zerg players is insane. Just because of an NP change, they're pushing for buffs for hydras and corruptors?? All of the recent GSL wins by Zergs against Protoss didn't even involve NP being used.
I'm zerg and I agree that for ZvP it won't change much... but it's true that in ZvT mech got stronger.
Then again the biggest problem for Protoss is how FFE into gateway timing or stargate got figured out so I don't see how a patch could change that.
On September 09 2011 14:31 roymarthyup wrote:
ZERGS: question, would you be okay with np change if it didnt require a upgrade and was only 50 energy?
that would actually be a big buff against tank pushes i think
Yes, in a heartbeat.
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This NP change just doesn't...feel right. I don't believe that it will horribly imbalance the game like many are convinced that it will but it feels rather inelegant to remove the primary function of a spell. I fear that if this change goes through NP will end up like the Thor's strike cannon. Sure you can theorycraft situations in which it will be useful but practicality dictates that it will almost never be used meaningfully.
I assume that this change has been suggested to even out PvZ. In which case, I believe that buffing HTs will be a better solution. I propose implementing some of the following: (implementing ALL might be overkill)
1.) Buff feedback range to 11-12ish. Allows HTs to snipe infestors (and ghosts) safely without risk of getting fungaled (or emped).
2.) Add an additional effect to feedback where it interrupts any spell being channeled by the target. This includes strike cannon and more importantly NP. One problem with NP is that once it fires off, feedbacking the infestor probably isn't going to be too useful unless that particular infestor was already injured/bloated with energy. This leads to the next point of...
3.) Make the infestor channeling neural parasite pulse bright green...or neon pink or something. NP is a spell that can absolutely turn the tide of battle and should be more visually apparent than a thin tentacle. This also allows for easier feedback sniping.
4.) If the infestor must be nerfed further perhaps disallowing fungal to snare massive units will be a better idea. Not only does this make thematic sense along with concussive shells whereby massive units are immune to slow, it also somewhat alleviates the problem of chain fungals wrecking a toss ball while the toss player is totally rooted in place.
5.) Kinda tangentially related point: Bring khaydarin amulet back as many have been suggesting BW style. Maybe bump down the cost and/or research time but make amulet equipped HTs spawn with 62ish energy and increased energy pool.
Nerfing units and removing abilities just isn't a fun exercise and induces QQ. Unit buffs (well, non-terran units anyway) is more likely to have a positive response and provide a better playing experience.
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Yeah, don't siege tanks destroy any infestor that gets remotely close? Assuming you're going roach, you can only neural if you first send your roaches into the tank line to die, right?
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As a zerg, I'm really wondering why so many zerg's are against this NP nerf. Whenever I got infestors, they were mainly for fungal growth, and the only time I've really used neural was when I was messing around when the game was nearly done. I think that for a tier 2 unit, it makes the infestor pretty fair.
On top of that, I'm kind of hoping that zergs get a tier 3 caster in HoTS, and Im hoping this is one of the steps towards that. Either way, I think this change won't make as big of an impact that people think it might be.
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On September 09 2011 14:34 DamNoam wrote:
This NP change just doesn't...feel right. I don't believe that it will horribly imbalance the game like many are convinced that it will but it feels rather inelegant to remove the primary function of a spell. I fear that if this change goes through NP will end up like the Thor's strike cannon. Sure you can theorycraft situations in which it will be useful but practicality dictates that it will almost never be used meaningfully.
I assume that this change has been suggested to even out PvZ. In which case, I believe that buffing HTs will be a better solution. I propose implementing some of the following: (implementing ALL might be overkill)
1.) Buff feedback range to 11-12ish. Allows HTs to snipe infestors (and ghosts) safely without risk of getting fungaled (or emped).
2.) Add an additional effect to feedback where it interrupts any spell being channeled by the target. This includes strike cannon and more importantly NP. One problem with NP is that once it fires off, feedbacking the infestor probably isn't going to be too useful unless that particular infestor was already injured/bloated with energy. This leads to the next point of...
3.) Make the infestor channeling neural parasite pulse bright green...or neon pink or something. NP is a spell that can absolutely turn the tide of battle and should be more visually apparent than a thin tentacle. This also allows for easier feedback sniping.
4.) If the infestor must be nerfed further perhaps disallowing fungal to snare massive units will be a better idea. Not only does this make thematic sense along with concussive shells whereby massive units are immune to slow, it also somewhat alleviates the problem of chain fungals wrecking a toss ball while the toss player is totally rooted in place.
5.) Kinda tangentially related point: Bring khaydarin amulet back as many have been suggesting BW style. Maybe bump down the cost and/or research time but make amulet equipped HTs spawn with 62ish energy and increased energy pool.
Nerfing units and removing abilities just isn't a fun exercise and induces QQ. Unit buffs (well, non-terran units anyway) is more likely to have a positive response and provide a better playing experience.
Feedback range to 11-12.... you cannot be serious.
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On September 09 2011 14:35 kanadiasteve wrote:
Yeah, don't siege tanks destroy any infestor that gets remotely close? Assuming you're going roach, you can only neural if you first send your roaches into the tank line to die, right?
Especially with a good tank spread and thors + dancing hellions. zvt mech will be.. interesting after the patch.
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On September 09 2011 14:09 TheDraken wrote:
Honestly NP was one of the more intelligent balance precautions Blizz designed. If there's any unit in the game that is "OP", zerg can just neural it and it becomes theirs, thereby discouraging the other race from massing that unit and abusing it. If zergs want to QQ about some unit being OP, they should just neural it and the OP unit is now theirs.
Blizz is absolutely retarded to get rid of that.
While I see how it will fix zerg dominance over toss, it will force zerg to always go roach hydra corruptor, which is a horribly stale and fragile way to play.
The real problem is what it will do to ZvT. Already terrans are having a blast doing all these cute one-base timings and pressure to exploit early game zerg, and now terrans will have yet ANOTHER all-in they can throw at zerg with fast repair thor. Zerg loses so much against a terran who pushes with 3 thors and all his SCVs, only to get back on his feet right when terran comes back with 3 more thors and another base worth of SCVs. Survive that? He comes back with 4 more thors and another 20 SCVs.
Zerg needs to tech to hive to win a game apparently. Terran doesn't even need workers.
Definitely losing respect for blizz.
They definitely need to fix the infestor being OP. So nerf NP range. Nerf fungal more. Increase IT cast energy. But holy cow is this going too far.
This isn't India cow's aren't holy here
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HOTS isn't out yet, and Blizzard probably shouldn't be making huge changes that could affect competitive play for a year or more, just to lead into a sequel.
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Well this kind of sucks, but honestly I don't use NP all that much. I am still surprised they haven't nerfed IT, the only spell that lets 4 spellcasters easily snipe a CC/nexus/hatch. It also sucks that they are further pushing toss towards colossus, and it seems like this is hitting when infestors have hardly even been tested in the pro level metagame. I don't understand why feedback isn't enough to deal with them. I don't see NP getting researched often at all outside of stalker/immortal timing pushes.
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EPT
