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Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 278

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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne

There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
Herculix
Profile Joined May 2010
United States946 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 05:53:45
September 09 2011 05:52 GMT
#5541
this is not going to balance the match up. it's just going to ruin zerg even more. the match up is in bad shape but toss builds are conforming more. PvZ is this perpetual role reversal match up of one race owning the other really hard until they learn to deal with it. blizzard should stop fucking with the units so much and give people more time to understand what they should be doing. a lot of tosses are figuring out more ways to handle infestors and this is just going to make zerg have to take the same amount of months how to relearn the match up.

the truth is blizzard just needs to stop with this nerf hammer bullshit in general unless a race is owning everyone really hard. i don't understand how terran can get these really soft nerfs but protoss and zerg constantly get these left field nerfs that are insanely harsh followed by insanely harsh buffs to make up for the stupid decision. because protoss and zerg get treated like this all the time, you end up with a match up that strugges to ever have a 55/45 winrate exchange. just leave it the fuck alone and fix terran for a while. the changes that were happening already were good to give protoss even more chances and options to deal with zerg in various ways. then again, i really liked virtually everything about this patch, so it only makes sense that blizzard would restore my loss of faith by adding something like the neural change
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
September 09 2011 05:52 GMT
#5542
On September 09 2011 14:49 Flonomenalz wrote:
I remember a protoss complaining to me when I was dropping Infestors and taking out his Nexi. He said it was so imba. I asked him, hey doesnt Zerg use mutas to stop drops from Terran medivacs? why cant toss in mid-late game use phoenix to stop OL drops? phoenix are even faster then mutas....

Anyway, I don't think this change is gonna go through. It's crazy.


i guess you never used phoenix
Overlords are really good damage tanks.

NP change was about god damn time.

fierywinds
Profile Joined October 2010
22 Posts
September 09 2011 05:52 GMT
#5543
On September 09 2011 14:48 jstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 14:25 kheldorin wrote:
Wow, the preemptive whining by the Zerg players is insane. Just because of an NP change, they're pushing for buffs for hydras and corruptors?? All of the recent GSL wins by Zergs against Protoss didn't even involve NP being used.


Cuz they don't know how to play Zerg properly. Zerg is so strong currently the nerfs are much needed.



The zergs in gsl werent using NP cos the terrans werent using mech. That doesn mean removing NP wont make mech too strong. And if youre so good at using zerg properly, go use zerg and show the world how its done. Then you'll realise u had a much easier time a moving with yr original race
miniwheats
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 05:53:43
September 09 2011 05:53 GMT
#5544
I'm going to save the judgement of this is bad or good for players that are better than me to make, but haven't we barely had time to watch infestors really enter pro play on a large scale? Already they are being changed drastically? Especially the use of neural in pro games.
"Don't disturb my Circles!" -Archimedes
TheDraken
Profile Joined July 2011
United States640 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 05:54:35
September 09 2011 05:54 GMT
#5545
On September 09 2011 14:25 kheldorin wrote:
Wow, the preemptive whining by the Zerg players is insane. Just because of an NP change, they're pushing for buffs for hydras and corruptors?? All of the recent GSL wins by Zergs against Protoss didn't even involve NP being used.


It's not about ZvP.
It's that it farked up ZvT even more than it already is. Removing NP indirectly buffed the thor, which is already noob-friendly enough.
fast food. y u no make me fast? <( ಠ益ಠ <)
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 05:56:06
September 09 2011 05:54 GMT
#5546
On September 09 2011 14:47 Flonomenalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 14:42 Sajaki wrote:
Wait, what? Why is everyone saying they have to go back to roach hydra corruptor due to a nerf to neural? Roach Infestor Corruptor -> Broodlord, as well as Ling Infestor Corruptor will be better then that old army composition. You still have fungal and even though that was slightly weakened its still more then capable of ripping an army apart if you catch the protoss out of position, or even in a flatout battle. You probably will need support from Hive tech to beat a stalker colossus HT ball though, which is fair because Protoss have to tech to their equivalent to reach colossi and HT in the first place.

Roach Infestor Corruptor doesn't work. A smart Protoss will push with 3-4 Colossi, and then a Blink Stalker ball. You need at least 12 Corruptors to kill that many Colossi quick enough. Then comes the guessing game. If they are still making Colossi, you're gonna need those Corruptors. But you don't know. They could remax on pure Blink Stalker, then you have so much wasted supply in Corruptors. Unless you're already hive tech with enough mins and gas ready to instantly morph most of ur Corruptors into BLs.....


Roach ling infestor would hold that better then roach hydra corruptor i would assume... Considering how 4 colossus is that magic number where hydras become silly. With infestors this is not the case. Lings with roach support should be able to clean up the gateway and a decently timed push with 3-4 colossus shouldn't have an obscene amount of gateway support, and definitely no templar support.

PS: This is a very typical combination Sen goes against protoss and its his response to 7gate blink and these sort of pushes (iirc)
Inno pls...
Glurkenspurk
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1915 Posts
September 09 2011 05:54 GMT
#5547
On September 09 2011 14:53 miniwheats wrote:
I'm going to save the critique for players that are better than me to make, but haven't we barely had time to watch infestors really enter pro play on a large scale? Already they are being changed drastically? Especially the use of neural in pro games.


This is my main concern with the way blizzard balances things. The second something could possibly be overpowered it's removed before we even have time to completely try stopping it. Anyone wonder how zvp would be with the 8 second fungal duration if people used neurals back then in combination with the fungal?
MrDudeMan
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada973 Posts
September 09 2011 05:55 GMT
#5548
On September 09 2011 14:50 DamNoam wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On September 09 2011 14:37 Flonomenalz wrote:

Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 14:34 DamNoam wrote:
This NP change just doesn't...feel right. I don't believe that it will horribly imbalance the game like many are convinced that it will but it feels rather inelegant to remove the primary function of a spell. I fear that if this change goes through NP will end up like the Thor's strike cannon. Sure you can theorycraft situations in which it will be useful but practicality dictates that it will almost never be used meaningfully.

I assume that this change has been suggested to even out PvZ. In which case, I believe that buffing HTs will be a better solution. I propose implementing some of the following: (implementing ALL might be overkill)

1.) Buff feedback range to 11-12ish. Allows HTs to snipe infestors (and ghosts) safely without risk of getting fungaled (or emped).

2.) Add an additional effect to feedback where it interrupts any spell being channeled by the target. This includes strike cannon and more importantly NP. One problem with NP is that once it fires off, feedbacking the infestor probably isn't going to be too useful unless that particular infestor was already injured/bloated with energy. This leads to the next point of...

3.) Make the infestor channeling neural parasite pulse bright green...or neon pink or something. NP is a spell that can absolutely turn the tide of battle and should be more visually apparent than a thin tentacle. This also allows for easier feedback sniping.

4.) If the infestor must be nerfed further perhaps disallowing fungal to snare massive units will be a better idea. Not only does this make thematic sense along with concussive shells whereby massive units are immune to slow, it also somewhat alleviates the problem of chain fungals wrecking a toss ball while the toss player is totally rooted in place.

5.) Kinda tangentially related point: Bring khaydarin amulet back as many have been suggesting BW style. Maybe bump down the cost and/or research time but make amulet equipped HTs spawn with 62ish energy and increased energy pool.

Nerfing units and removing abilities just isn't a fun exercise and induces QQ. Unit buffs (well, non-terran units anyway) is more likely to have a positive response and provide a better playing experience.

Feedback range to 11-12.... you cannot be serious.





Sure, I admit 11-12 range feedback might be excessive. I do believe the general idea is clear though. Feedback should slightly out range NP (and maybe more importantly EMP). The exact number can be tweaked and maybe something like a 10 or 10.5 will suffice. If nothing else, this functions as an "over buff" to draw attention to the HT as a counter to the infestor.


It outranges both slightly IIRC. But it gets gimmicky when the difference in range is low. 10 is excessive though, thats like siege tank range.
Rareware
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada340 Posts
September 09 2011 05:56 GMT
#5549
On September 09 2011 14:41 darkness wrote:
I'm happy I won't be afraid of colossi getting stomped because of NP.
However, I'm sure this NP change will be removed because zergs are such whiners. My aim isn't to piss anyone off, but it's proven that whine brings good things to Zerg (infestor buff before for example).


I came to this thread expecting insults instead of a well thought out arguments and I guess I wasn't wrong >.> . Anyway PvZ was clearly in favour of Protoss pre-fungle buff, that wasn't up for question, so then what would you do to have fixed the situation...
ROOT Fighting!!!
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
September 09 2011 05:58 GMT
#5550
Hugely disappointing and annoying not because infestors aren't OP and didn't deserve a patch, but rather because Terran is left untouched.

Just how stupid can they get? In space of a month, they see an overpowered unit for Zerg, and patch right away, yet Terran dominating this game from its inception, and things continue the way they are. Very disappointed.

BTW, I don't think infestors should have been patched. I think they should have returned Amulet to High Templars. I still cannot believe they removed it. Yes, it's OP, and yes, it's warp in and storm, but hey, isn't infestor the same? So why not leave infestor the way it is and give amulet back?
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 06:01:29
September 09 2011 05:59 GMT
#5551
On September 09 2011 14:56 Rareware wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 14:41 darkness wrote:
I'm happy I won't be afraid of colossi getting stomped because of NP.
However, I'm sure this NP change will be removed because zergs are such whiners. My aim isn't to piss anyone off, but it's proven that whine brings good things to Zerg (infestor buff before for example).


I came to this thread expecting insults instead of a well thought out arguments and I guess I wasn't wrong >.> . Anyway PvZ was clearly in favour of Protoss pre-fungle buff, that wasn't up for question, so then what would you do to have fixed the situation...


Fungal growth and bringing the infestor into play was absolutely the RIGHT thing to do and im very glad they did that (protoss player). I think being able to mind control everything that fungal growth didn't outright destroy, however, was a bit over the top so i hope this balances things out a bit. If it swings unfairly into protoss' favor the matchup will be rebalanced in the next patch thereafter im sure.
Inno pls...
adrenaLinG
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada676 Posts
September 09 2011 06:01 GMT
#5552
On September 09 2011 14:42 Spectorials wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 14:33 adrenaLinG wrote:
On September 09 2011 14:26 Spectorials wrote:
Also on top of allllllllll of this discussion...

EMP has a greater range than NP
Feedback has the same range as NP

So basically in the current game it only works on massive units if you FAIL TO EMP OR FEEDBACK.

This is not an imbalance, it's called learning to use the units and abilities you currently have available to you???


So you're saying that it's expected for T/P

to not only have teched and created Collossus/Thor

but to also tech and produce ghosts and HTs at the same time?

Whereas zerg just needs to make one unit to counter any massive unit?


Yes it is expected that a T/P goes Ghost / Templar if they see a Zerg building Infestors.

....

How can people even complain about it when you have DIRECT counters (and in the case of the Ghost a spell that OUTRANGES the Infestor)???


You don't think it's unreasonable for T/P to be spending their gas on heavy gas intensive massive units, only to be countered by infestors, and then needing to start a completely different tech route, and making other heavy gas intensive units, just to counter infestors while the zerg can get BLs or take more bases because T/P can't engage until they can handle the infestors?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
AxionSteel
Profile Joined January 2011
United States7754 Posts
September 09 2011 06:03 GMT
#5553
Collossus were totally useless against zerg, so i can see why they changed it. When I watched Destiny steal ZenexPuzzle's entire army and kill it for free, it looked pretty wrong! It Seems like the wrong change to me though, as they'd only be used against tanks now. I originally thought you could maybe reduce the range of it, but then they'd probably be useless against terran, so I dunno.
unoriginalname
Profile Joined November 2010
England380 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 06:04:18
September 09 2011 06:03 GMT
#5554
Infestors were the main way to confront or stall a death ball, fungal being nerfed makes that death-ball scarier again especially considering nothing the Zerg can do will be able to face it without Neural Parasite affecting massive units.

Hmmm
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 09 2011 06:05 GMT
#5555
Can anyone get onto the PTR right now? I'm unable to do it, it says its:

SC2 Public Test server is not available right now. Please check http://www.battle.net/sc2/game/ptr/ for more information.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Lorizean
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Germany1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 06:08:11
September 09 2011 06:05 GMT
#5556
On September 09 2011 15:01 adrenaLinG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 14:42 Spectorials wrote:
On September 09 2011 14:33 adrenaLinG wrote:
On September 09 2011 14:26 Spectorials wrote:
Also on top of allllllllll of this discussion...

EMP has a greater range than NP
Feedback has the same range as NP

So basically in the current game it only works on massive units if you FAIL TO EMP OR FEEDBACK.

This is not an imbalance, it's called learning to use the units and abilities you currently have available to you???


So you're saying that it's expected for T/P

to not only have teched and created Collossus/Thor

but to also tech and produce ghosts and HTs at the same time?

Whereas zerg just needs to make one unit to counter any massive unit?


Yes it is expected that a T/P goes Ghost / Templar if they see a Zerg building Infestors.

....

How can people even complain about it when you have DIRECT counters (and in the case of the Ghost a spell that OUTRANGES the Infestor)???


You don't think it's unreasonable for T/P to be spending their gas on heavy gas intensive massive units, only to be countered by infestors, and then needing to start a completely different tech route, and making other heavy gas intensive units, just to counter infestors while the zerg can get BLs or take more bases because T/P can't engage until they can handle the infestors?


you do realize that infestors and broodlords are very gas heavy too...?

Anyways, now Zerg has to go Spire to counter colossi. I was always a fan of being able to choose between Spire and upgrading NP... maybe just make the upgrade more expensive?
Or maybe give the NP ability to another unit so it doesn't have to be infestor counters everything... although stuff like that probably needs to wait until HotS
Velocirapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States983 Posts
September 09 2011 06:07 GMT
#5557
I have to say, the np nerf is a great idea that I had not even thought of. 90% of the old preferred targets can still be taken (immortals, tanks, casters, banshee, viking) but no longer will the mothership or colossus get screwed over. Most zergs (with the possible exception of Destiny) prolly wont even feel the change, but I know toss will.
WarChimp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia943 Posts
September 09 2011 06:07 GMT
#5558
I wish Blizzard would just back off the in game patches. Let the players balance it themselves. They can fix issues with Battlenet but leave the game alone. That is my thoughts.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
September 09 2011 06:08 GMT
#5559
When we lost KA, everyone but protosses told us it was OP. It's a similar situation with NP now (except NP can be researched, while KA is gone). Deal with it.
However, I wouldn't mind if thors get patched if TvZ indeed turns into mass thors, but I doubt it to last long.
Still, I'm surprised ghosts aren't nerfed. It seems Blizzard is step-mom for protoss and zerg.
Vegalive
Profile Joined November 2010
United States96 Posts
September 09 2011 06:08 GMT
#5560
On September 09 2011 14:58 Xxavi wrote:
Hugely disappointing and annoying not because infestors aren't OP and didn't deserve a patch, but rather because Terran is left untouched.

Just how stupid can they get? In space of a month, they see an overpowered unit for Zerg, and patch right away, yet Terran dominating this game from its inception, and things continue the way they are. Very disappointed.

BTW, I don't think infestors should have been patched. I think they should have returned Amulet to High Templars. I still cannot believe they removed it. Yes, it's OP, and yes, it's warp in and storm, but hey, isn't infestor the same? So why not leave infestor the way it is and give amulet back?



Infestor isn't the same as KA was. The problem with amulet was that the toss did not have to commit their resources to the storm until they knew they needed it and then they could warp it in and storm. With the infestor, you still have to commit your resources to the infestor before you are aware that you actually need the fungal.
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