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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 14:35 vicml21 wrote:
As a zerg, I'm really wondering why so many zerg's are against this NP nerf. Whenever I got infestors, they were mainly for fungal growth, and the only time I've really used neural was when I was messing around when the game was nearly done. I think that for a tier 2 unit, it makes the infestor pretty fair.
On top of that, I'm kind of hoping that zergs get a tier 3 caster in HoTS, and Im hoping this is one of the steps towards that. Either way, I think this change won't make as big of an impact that people think it might be.
They should drop corruptors and have mutas turn into broods or anti air flyers with greater spire tech. Would be more interesting than having a caster as the crutch against massive units, and I'm pretty sure mutalisks are called mutalisks because they are supposed to MUTATE.
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I'm happy I won't be afraid of colossi getting stomped because of NP.
However, I'm sure this NP change will be removed because zergs are such whiners. My aim isn't to piss anyone off, but it's proven that whine brings good things to Zerg (infestor buff before for example).
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Wait, what? Why is everyone saying they have to go back to roach hydra corruptor due to a nerf to neural? Roach Infestor Corruptor -> Broodlord, as well as Ling Infestor Corruptor will be better then that old army composition. You still have fungal and even though that was slightly weakened its still more then capable of ripping an army apart if you catch the protoss out of position, or even in a flatout battle. You probably will need support from Hive tech to beat a stalker colossus HT ball though, which is fair because Protoss have to tech to their equivalent to reach colossi and HT in the first place.
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On September 09 2011 14:33 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:26 Spectorials wrote:
Also on top of allllllllll of this discussion...
EMP has a greater range than NP
Feedback has the same range as NP
So basically in the current game it only works on massive units if you FAIL TO EMP OR FEEDBACK.
This is not an imbalance, it's called learning to use the units and abilities you currently have available to you??? So you're saying that it's expected for T/P to not only have teched and created Collossus/Thor but to also tech and produce ghosts and HTs at the same time? Whereas zerg just needs to make one unit to counter any massive unit?
Yes it is expected that a T/P goes Ghost / Templar if they see a Zerg building Infestors.
....
How can people even complain about it when you have DIRECT counters (and in the case of the Ghost a spell that OUTRANGES the Infestor)???
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On September 09 2011 14:31 roymarthyup wrote:
ZERGS: question, would you be okay with np change if it didnt require a upgrade and was only 50 energy?
that would actually be a big buff against tank pushes i think
No, because its still useless. It would be alright against tank pushes, but it would serve no purpose otherwise. Also, when you neural you lose an infestor for the duration of the mind control, you may as well throw down swarms of IT instead.
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On September 09 2011 14:41 darkness wrote:
I'm happy I won't be afraid of colossi getting stomped because of NP.
However, I'm sure this NP change will be removed because zergs are such whiners. My aim isn't to piss anyone off, but it's proven that whine brings good things to Zerg (infestor buff before for example).
Yup, only zerg players whine. This isn't coming from someone incredibly biased.
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On September 09 2011 14:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
Well this kind of sucks, but honestly I don't use NP all that much. I am still surprised they haven't nerfed IT, the only spell that lets 4 spellcasters easily snipe a CC/nexus/hatch. It also sucks that they are further pushing toss towards colossus, and it seems like this is hitting when infestors have hardly even been tested in the pro level metagame. I don't understand why feedback isn't enough to deal with them. I don't see NP getting researched often at all outside of stalker/immortal timing pushes.
The thing is, feedback is definitely enough to deal with infestors. 1 HT can take out 4 infestors.
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On September 09 2011 14:40 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:35 vicml21 wrote:
As a zerg, I'm really wondering why so many zerg's are against this NP nerf. Whenever I got infestors, they were mainly for fungal growth, and the only time I've really used neural was when I was messing around when the game was nearly done. I think that for a tier 2 unit, it makes the infestor pretty fair.
On top of that, I'm kind of hoping that zergs get a tier 3 caster in HoTS, and Im hoping this is one of the steps towards that. Either way, I think this change won't make as big of an impact that people think it might be. They should drop corruptors and have mutas turn into broods or anti air flyers with greater spire tech. Would be more interesting than having a caster as the crutch against massive units, and I'm pretty sure mutalisks are called mutalisks because they are supposed to MUTATE.
I actually feel the same way about mutalisks. But at the same time, I've been meaning to try Brood lords in ZvP play. But the others were right, I doubt Blizzard would be setting up the gameplay for HoTS at this point in the game. But even Dustin Browder himself said he disliked Corrupters in their role right now (which is anti collosus, or get them before you make broodlords). This is another thiing I hope they change in HoTS.
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I understand the need for this change in regards to ZvP but now terrans are going to be able to really abuse thors in ZvT- a match up where terran is already doing better in. Blizzard really needs to think about both match ups when making these changes.
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On September 09 2011 14:42 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
Well this kind of sucks, but honestly I don't use NP all that much. I am still surprised they haven't nerfed IT, the only spell that lets 4 spellcasters easily snipe a CC/nexus/hatch. It also sucks that they are further pushing toss towards colossus, and it seems like this is hitting when infestors have hardly even been tested in the pro level metagame. I don't understand why feedback isn't enough to deal with them. I don't see NP getting researched often at all outside of stalker/immortal timing pushes. The thing is, feedback is definitely enough to deal with infestors. 1 HT can take out 4 infestors.
Also dealing with burrowed infestor harass is like dealing with DTs. It's not as common yet but I'm sure eventually everyone will have their cannon/turret/spore placement down so that it's not much of a threat if you know the timings.
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Massive units are the only ones worth NPing. The ability wont even be worth researching after this.
Too drastic of a change and that's coming from a Protoss.
I would like to see the Mothership become immune to NP though. I've always thought it incredibly stupid that the only super unit in the game can simply be stolen by your opponent and used to Vortex your own army.
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On September 09 2011 14:42 Sajaki wrote:
Wait, what? Why is everyone saying they have to go back to roach hydra corruptor due to a nerf to neural? Roach Infestor Corruptor -> Broodlord, as well as Ling Infestor Corruptor will be better then that old army composition. You still have fungal and even though that was slightly weakened its still more then capable of ripping an army apart if you catch the protoss out of position, or even in a flatout battle. You probably will need support from Hive tech to beat a stalker colossus HT ball though, which is fair because Protoss have to tech to their equivalent to reach colossi and HT in the first place.
Roach Infestor Corruptor doesn't work. A smart Protoss will push with 3-4 Colossi, and then a Blink Stalker ball. You need at least 12 Corruptors to kill that many Colossi quick enough. Then comes the guessing game. If they are still making Colossi, you're gonna need those Corruptors. But you don't know. They could remax on pure Blink Stalker, then you have so much wasted supply in Corruptors. Unless you're already hive tech with enough mins and gas ready to instantly morph most of ur Corruptors into BLs.....
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On September 09 2011 14:25 kheldorin wrote:
Wow, the preemptive whining by the Zerg players is insane. Just because of an NP change, they're pushing for buffs for hydras and corruptors?? All of the recent GSL wins by Zergs against Protoss didn't even involve NP being used.
Cuz they don't know how to play Zerg properly. Zerg is so strong currently the nerfs are much needed.
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so many pages of whining that i cant actually find where or what the change is
can somebody please tell me
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On September 09 2011 14:45 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:42 Flonomenalz wrote:On September 09 2011 14:38 Treemonkeys wrote:
Well this kind of sucks, but honestly I don't use NP all that much. I am still surprised they haven't nerfed IT, the only spell that lets 4 spellcasters easily snipe a CC/nexus/hatch. It also sucks that they are further pushing toss towards colossus, and it seems like this is hitting when infestors have hardly even been tested in the pro level metagame. I don't understand why feedback isn't enough to deal with them. I don't see NP getting researched often at all outside of stalker/immortal timing pushes. The thing is, feedback is definitely enough to deal with infestors. 1 HT can take out 4 infestors. Also dealing with burrowed infestor harass is like dealing with DTs. It's not as common yet but I'm sure eventually everyone will have their cannon/turret/spore placement down so that it's not much of a threat if you know the timings.
Yup.
I remember a protoss complaining to me when I was dropping Infestors and taking out his Nexi. He said it was so imba. I asked him, hey doesnt Zerg use mutas to stop drops from Terran medivacs? why cant toss in mid-late game use phoenix to stop OL drops? phoenix are even faster then mutas....
Anyway, I don't think this change is gonna go through. It's crazy.
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On September 09 2011 14:48 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:
so many pages of whining that i cant actually find where or what the change is
can somebody please tell me
Click the link on the front page and scroll down. New patch notes are in italics iirc.
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On September 09 2011 14:41 darkness wrote:
I'm happy I won't be afraid of colossi getting stomped because of NP.
However, I'm sure this NP change will be removed because zergs are such whiners. My aim isn't to piss anyone off, but it's proven that whine brings good things to Zerg (infestor buff before for example).
That's very childish put. People whine, not Zerg or Terran or Protoss players. It's human physiology and it's the same for all. Same with bias, like your post is an example of.
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On September 09 2011 14:37 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:34 DamNoam wrote:
This NP change just doesn't...feel right. I don't believe that it will horribly imbalance the game like many are convinced that it will but it feels rather inelegant to remove the primary function of a spell. I fear that if this change goes through NP will end up like the Thor's strike cannon. Sure you can theorycraft situations in which it will be useful but practicality dictates that it will almost never be used meaningfully.
I assume that this change has been suggested to even out PvZ. In which case, I believe that buffing HTs will be a better solution. I propose implementing some of the following: (implementing ALL might be overkill)
1.) Buff feedback range to 11-12ish. Allows HTs to snipe infestors (and ghosts) safely without risk of getting fungaled (or emped).
2.) Add an additional effect to feedback where it interrupts any spell being channeled by the target. This includes strike cannon and more importantly NP. One problem with NP is that once it fires off, feedbacking the infestor probably isn't going to be too useful unless that particular infestor was already injured/bloated with energy. This leads to the next point of...
3.) Make the infestor channeling neural parasite pulse bright green...or neon pink or something. NP is a spell that can absolutely turn the tide of battle and should be more visually apparent than a thin tentacle. This also allows for easier feedback sniping.
4.) If the infestor must be nerfed further perhaps disallowing fungal to snare massive units will be a better idea. Not only does this make thematic sense along with concussive shells whereby massive units are immune to slow, it also somewhat alleviates the problem of chain fungals wrecking a toss ball while the toss player is totally rooted in place.
5.) Kinda tangentially related point: Bring khaydarin amulet back as many have been suggesting BW style. Maybe bump down the cost and/or research time but make amulet equipped HTs spawn with 62ish energy and increased energy pool.
Nerfing units and removing abilities just isn't a fun exercise and induces QQ. Unit buffs (well, non-terran units anyway) is more likely to have a positive response and provide a better playing experience. Feedback range to 11-12.... you cannot be serious.
Sure, I admit 11-12 range feedback might be excessive. I do believe the general idea is clear though. Feedback should slightly out range NP (and maybe more importantly EMP). The exact number can be tweaked and maybe something like a 10 or 10.5 will suffice. If nothing else, this functions as an "over buff" to draw attention to the HT as a counter to the infestor.
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Hmm. On one hand, I can now try use motherships vs Zerg.
On the other hand, I can't now Neural Parasite a mothership.
As a random player, I'm very conflicted!
EDIT: But overall I feel the change is...unnecessary. NP never felt too overpowered. Annoying, sure, but overpowered? hmm...
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On September 09 2011 14:30 izgodlee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:21 Spectorials wrote:On September 09 2011 14:16 Dommk wrote:On September 09 2011 14:13 Spectorials wrote:On September 09 2011 14:10 Sajaki wrote:On September 09 2011 14:09 Spectorials wrote:
A serious question:
What unit WOULD you neural after this change? Can only think of HT or Ghost?
Might as well remove the ability :S? Siege tanks, voidrays and immortals. They're the next biggest ones to come to mind. But you don't build Infestors for 2 out of 3 of those... Also Voidrays its more energy efficient to use fungal and infested terran. Are you saying Zerg only make Infestors for NP? Because virtually EVERY ZvP transitions into Infestor mid/late game, regardless of what the Protoss is going...just because of Fungals. No I'm saying that if their unit composition is heavy Immortal for example then build lots of Infestors is silly. Infestors are built for their utility against units that come out of the same unit producing structures. What I'm saying is that NP on those units is a waste of energy and hence the spell would be useless if they made this change. "roach immortal is good against stalker" - idra i guess you know more though?
+1, I think tier 2.5 like immortals, tanks, VRs are supposed to be NP, not the most expensive units and highest tech in the game, it's just too silly to watch your army got destroyed by your own units.
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EPT
