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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 15:01 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:42 Spectorials wrote:On September 09 2011 14:33 adrenaLinG wrote:On September 09 2011 14:26 Spectorials wrote:
Also on top of allllllllll of this discussion...
EMP has a greater range than NP
Feedback has the same range as NP
So basically in the current game it only works on massive units if you FAIL TO EMP OR FEEDBACK.
This is not an imbalance, it's called learning to use the units and abilities you currently have available to you??? So you're saying that it's expected for T/P to not only have teched and created Collossus/Thor but to also tech and produce ghosts and HTs at the same time? Whereas zerg just needs to make one unit to counter any massive unit? Yes it is expected that a T/P goes Ghost / Templar if they see a Zerg building Infestors. .... How can people even complain about it when you have DIRECT counters (and in the case of the Ghost a spell that OUTRANGES the Infestor)??? You don't think it's unreasonable for T/P to be spending their gas on heavy gas intensive massive units, only to be countered by infestors, and then needing to start a completely different tech route, and making other heavy gas intensive units, just to counter infestors while the zerg can get BLs or take more bases because T/P can't engage until they can handle the infestors?
Likely their heavy gas intensive unit comes after or around the same time as the Infestor. So if you don't scout and react correctly then yes you deserve to lose those gas intensive massive units.
Also, I'd like to add to try remain impartial despite my previous votes that I do think that NP is very powerful, however, this is not the answer to the problem.
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On September 09 2011 15:08 Vegalive wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:58 Xxavi wrote:
Hugely disappointing and annoying not because infestors aren't OP and didn't deserve a patch, but rather because Terran is left untouched.
Just how stupid can they get? In space of a month, they see an overpowered unit for Zerg, and patch right away, yet Terran dominating this game from its inception, and things continue the way they are. Very disappointed.
BTW, I don't think infestors should have been patched. I think they should have returned Amulet to High Templars. I still cannot believe they removed it. Yes, it's OP, and yes, it's warp in and storm, but hey, isn't infestor the same? So why not leave infestor the way it is and give amulet back? Infestor isn't the same as KA was. The problem with amulet was that the toss did not have to commit their resources to the storm until they knew they needed it and then they could warp it in and storm. With the infestor, you still have to commit your resources to the infestor before you are aware that you actually need the fungal.
are you serious "aware that you actually need the fungal"
infestor is currently the counter to EVERYTHING...... you don't need to be aware of anything to make infestor
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Mathematically speaking, it is super unfair that a zerg was able to NP potentially-eight-food units and there is no cap, just depending on the number of infestors with available energy you had.
Let's imagine a protoss army that includes six colossi (six food each) and a mothership (eight food). And let's also assume the zerg player has seven infestors ready with enough energy for NP. Boom, away go the colossi (36 food) and the mothership (8 food) for a total of 44 food. But it's not zero-sum. The zerg gets +44 (244) and the protoss gets -44 (156) for an 88-food swing, or nearly 50% of the food berth.
Obviously, that's just an example that pops up in maybe 5% of ZvP games, but it is super unfair just mathematically speaking. I'm glad Blizzard made the change. Especially because protoss rely on the big-food units since basic tier-1 gateway units lose effectiveness in the late game (generally speaking).
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On September 09 2011 15:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:08 Vegalive wrote:On September 09 2011 14:58 Xxavi wrote:
Hugely disappointing and annoying not because infestors aren't OP and didn't deserve a patch, but rather because Terran is left untouched.
Just how stupid can they get? In space of a month, they see an overpowered unit for Zerg, and patch right away, yet Terran dominating this game from its inception, and things continue the way they are. Very disappointed.
BTW, I don't think infestors should have been patched. I think they should have returned Amulet to High Templars. I still cannot believe they removed it. Yes, it's OP, and yes, it's warp in and storm, but hey, isn't infestor the same? So why not leave infestor the way it is and give amulet back? Infestor isn't the same as KA was. The problem with amulet was that the toss did not have to commit their resources to the storm until they knew they needed it and then they could warp it in and storm. With the infestor, you still have to commit your resources to the infestor before you are aware that you actually need the fungal. are you serious "aware that you actually need the fungal" infestor is currently the counter to EVERYTHING...... you don't need to be aware of anything to make infestor
I'm just talking about the mechanic.
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no the problem with KA was not that at all, it was that you could have 0 army value left, warp a few templars and kill 90% of what terran had left, it wasn't much of an issue vs zerg really
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i play toss and think, this is too much of a nerf.
the big units are the ones it only makes sense to neural parasite.
imo a nerf of the view-range and range from neural parasite would have been the better way. let infestors overtake massive units if they get close enough to them
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Hello? Can anyone get on PTR right now? Instead of theorycrafting, who's actually playing it?
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Hmmm they should look into PvT before PvZ Oo
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On September 09 2011 15:15 ReignFayth wrote:
no the problem with KA was not that at all, it was that you could have 0 army value left, warp a few templars and kill 90% of what terran had left, it wasn't much of an issue vs zerg really
This is essentially saying the same thing I was saying. If you compare this to an infestor, the infestor would still need to have the entire build time.
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is there a real necessity to even have neural as a spell anymore? with the exception of the occasional neural on immortals, or even more situationally ghosts/HT, it is effectively obsolete now. if neural really was too strong, so be it, but i just dont see any point in even getting it any more.
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On September 09 2011 14:54 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:53 miniwheats wrote:
I'm going to save the critique for players that are better than me to make, but haven't we barely had time to watch infestors really enter pro play on a large scale? Already they are being changed drastically? Especially the use of neural in pro games. This is my main concern with the way blizzard balances things. The second something could possibly be overpowered it's removed before we even have time to completely try stopping it. Anyone wonder how zvp would be with the 8 second fungal duration if people used neurals back then in combination with the fungal?
At this point, I think Blizzard is just trying to contain all the things that need refinement. Infestors are such strong units with 3 widely used spells that this kind of nerf won't likely kill the infestor play. Blizzard tweaked before it got out of hand. When HotS debuts, I have a feeling things will become more stable and less "proactive."
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Maybe they could make it such that NP'd units just can't attack or cast abilities.
So basically NP is just use as a temporary disable? Not a disabler + damager + ability to cast.
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why would you not want terran to go pure mech?
free win for the zerg
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tvz will decend into turtle into mass thors now that nothing can touch them. seriously, i play protoss and i feel bad for zergs about this patch
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Well.. There's not point in NP now. The only units you will ever want to np will be immortal and ttanks. And you barely can do it on tanks. With Colossus on the tifle dyou can't NP at all, since you can't np them, and they will always snipe the infestor.
And Mech in TvZ become a lot better than it should be.
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On September 09 2011 15:22 mR.bONG789 wrote:
tvz will decend into turtle into mass thors now that nothing can touch them. seriously, i play protoss and i feel bad for zergs about this patch
yeah, nothing can beat mass thors except roaches, muta/ling/bling, muta/roach, broodlords, ultra/ling
don't mind the mobility and slow production speed of thors too, you want to let them max 200/200 thors and attack them straight on.
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As always i believe and have faith in blizz. I am zerg, but even so i think that this will force more zergs to use other methods and corruptors again to tackle the death ball. It is possible my zerg brethren, it is possible!
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On September 09 2011 15:13 Crashburn wrote:
Mathematically speaking, it is super unfair that a zerg was able to NP potentially-eight-food units and there is no cap, just depending on the number of infestors with available energy you had.
Let's imagine a protoss army that includes six colossi (six food each) and a mothership (eight food). And let's also assume the zerg player has seven infestors ready with enough energy for NP. Boom, away go the colossi (36 food) and the mothership (8 food) for a total of 44 food. But it's not zero-sum. The zerg gets +44 (244) and the protoss gets -44 (156) for an 88-food swing, or nearly 50% of the food berth.
Obviously, that's just an example that pops up in maybe 5% of ZvP games, but it is super unfair just mathematically speaking. I'm glad Blizzard made the change. Especially because protoss rely on the big-food units since basic tier-1 gateway units lose effectiveness in the late game (generally speaking).
How exactly does it make sense to remove all the other factors that together paints the whole picture? You can't use such data for anything alone.
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On September 09 2011 15:24 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:22 mR.bONG789 wrote:
tvz will decend into turtle into mass thors now that nothing can touch them. seriously, i play protoss and i feel bad for zergs about this patch yeah, nothing can beat mass thors except roaches, muta/ling/bling, muta/roach, broodlords, ultra/ling don't mind the mobility and slow production speed of thors too, you want to let them max 200/200 thors and attack them straight on.
bullshit aside, mass thors are unbeatable without NP.
User was warned for this post
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Yeah np is pretty much useless now. At least remove the time limit so it easier to steal a probe again and build your own protoss army. :D
Seriously though, was np really that strong? Sure it was super useful in certain situations but to me this change seems overkill unless it's about just weakening the infestor overall.
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EPT
