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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 14:17 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:13 Dommk wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:58 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:56 kheldorin wrote:On September 09 2011 13:51 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:48 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:44 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:43 Grimjim wrote:
[quote]
Oh look, someone with no major tournament wins is acting superior to a forum poster. Why don't you win some tournaments before you talk down to those on this forum? You have to earn your superiority first.
it's ok grimjim, i pointed out to him that he's wrong. feedback & fungal are same range.  i'll assume he'll conveniently be quiet now, and should start to learn how to use HT and feedback dood there's something wrong with you YES on paper they have the same range BUT the "AOE" of fungal hits further than feedback dont make me go in game and use paint WTF are u that dumb ? not as dumb as someone who equates forum posts with game understanding yes it's "AOE", so? you can't walk? your HT walk too slow? your HT so alone that opponent can walk the extra 2 range to fungal you? see my point now? it's same range, while you can argue that it adds 2 range cause its AOE, reality is, in battle HTs aren't alone, and infestors can't just walk up to HT straight up. learn to spread out your HT. all your arguments have been bullocks (broodlords, movement speed, etc.). fact is, if opponent got to fungal you, then you did something wrong cause you should be able to feedback him too. What are you talking about?? Infestors are not going to go forward to fungal HTs. They will be fungalling the main army and since the main army is usually faster than the HTs, they will be about 2 hexes infront. Which means in practice the infestors will be in range of the main army while the HTs will be out of range of the infestors. With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players. yup that's exactly my point. read it again (heck, read all the quotes, it's desrow that's pointing out the thing that you're pointing out against lol) Read what you just agreed with again. Here, I'll repost it for you: "With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players." Yeah. Play better and don't get hit by feedbacks. Fungal does actually outrange feedback by virtue of being an aoe. If you can't accept that, you're an idiot. Also, if the high templar are at the front of the army to feedback, you can fungal them. If they are in the back, you can cast your spells before feedback goes off. "but protoss players just have a lot more better micro than zerg players", then it won't be trouble for protoss players to feedback them. that's why i agree. and play better and don't get hit by fungals  "and play better and don't get hit by fungals " ROFL, do you actually play this game? "and play better and don't get hit by feedbacks " ROFL, do you actually play this game?
a) I never said that
b) Obviously it doesn't work that way, but you can't doubt that Infestors don't have the edge in the Infestor vs Templar battle, you have to be plain ignorant to think otherwise
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On September 09 2011 14:17 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:14 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:11 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:09 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:08 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:07 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:06 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:05 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 BeeNu wrote:On September 09 2011 14:03 Fig wrote:
[quote]
Blink stalkers and uncharged void rays do have rather low DPS, if you notice in those battles, the overlords are always the last things left, it is very hard to kill them before they drop their cargo, which is why baneling bombing is so good. Don't knock it till you try it. You act like I haven't tried it before? I've tried it many, many times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gets absolutely demolished by a player who knows how to micro. can't micro if you fungal can't fungal if you micro actually fungal is instant and can be used at 9 range with more radius than storm. If you miss with it it's your problem. actually feedback is instant and can be used at 9 range with obvious support from army. If you miss with it it's your problem. stop trolling, it's obvious you can't miss with feedback, but fungals CAN prevent you from ever getting in range. stop trolling, it's obvious you can't miss with fungal, but feedback CAN prevent infestors from ever casting fungal. Hey this is about neural parasite, fungal has already been buffed and nerfed. I already made my point about neural, so if you want to continue talking about fungal, go ahead, but I'm not gonna follow along. ask desrow, he's the one who brought up neural parasite into the discussion when feedback was mentioned.
god damn man...what did Desrow ever do to you to hate him that much? did he cannon rush you for strait 50 games or what?
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On September 09 2011 14:18 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:13 Dommk wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:58 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:56 kheldorin wrote:On September 09 2011 13:51 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:48 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:44 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:43 Grimjim wrote:
[quote]
Oh look, someone with no major tournament wins is acting superior to a forum poster. Why don't you win some tournaments before you talk down to those on this forum? You have to earn your superiority first.
it's ok grimjim, i pointed out to him that he's wrong. feedback & fungal are same range. i'll assume he'll conveniently be quiet now, and should start to learn how to use HT and feedback dood there's something wrong with you YES on paper they have the same range BUT the "AOE" of fungal hits further than feedback dont make me go in game and use paint WTF are u that dumb ? not as dumb as someone who equates forum posts with game understanding yes it's "AOE", so? you can't walk? your HT walk too slow? your HT so alone that opponent can walk the extra 2 range to fungal you? see my point now? it's same range, while you can argue that it adds 2 range cause its AOE, reality is, in battle HTs aren't alone, and infestors can't just walk up to HT straight up. learn to spread out your HT. all your arguments have been bullocks (broodlords, movement speed, etc.). fact is, if opponent got to fungal you, then you did something wrong cause you should be able to feedback him too. What are you talking about?? Infestors are not going to go forward to fungal HTs. They will be fungalling the main army and since the main army is usually faster than the HTs, they will be about 2 hexes infront. Which means in practice the infestors will be in range of the main army while the HTs will be out of range of the infestors. With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players. yup that's exactly my point. read it again (heck, read all the quotes, it's desrow that's pointing out the thing that you're pointing out against lol) Read what you just agreed with again. Here, I'll repost it for you: "With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players." Yeah. Play better and don't get hit by feedbacks. Fungal does actually outrange feedback by virtue of being an aoe. If you can't accept that, you're an idiot. Also, if the high templar are at the front of the army to feedback, you can fungal them. If they are in the back, you can cast your spells before feedback goes off. "but protoss players just have a lot more better micro than zerg players", then it won't be trouble for protoss players to feedback them. that's why i agree. and play better and don't get hit by fungals "and play better and don't get hit by fungals " ROFL, do you actually play this game? No he actually doesn't, his account has no ladder games played this or last season: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2277952/1/Nomad/Oh, and apparently, according to his TL post, he's platinum.
so if i'm platinum...why don't i have ladder games played? something's wrong here...
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On September 09 2011 14:11 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:09 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:08 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:07 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:06 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:05 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 BeeNu wrote:On September 09 2011 14:03 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 13:59 BeeNu wrote:On September 09 2011 13:56 NineteenSC2 wrote:
[quote]
ah well, you could always fungal and baneling carpet bomb. Ever hear of these funny little things called Blink Stalkers and Void Rays? Yeah. Fun stuff. Blink stalkers and uncharged void rays do have rather low DPS, if you notice in those battles, the overlords are always the last things left, it is very hard to kill them before they drop their cargo, which is why baneling bombing is so good. Don't knock it till you try it. You act like I haven't tried it before? I've tried it many, many times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gets absolutely demolished by a player who knows how to micro. can't micro if you fungal can't fungal if you micro actually fungal is instant and can be used at 9 range with more radius than storm. If you miss with it it's your problem. actually feedback is instant and can be used at 9 range with obvious support from army. If you miss with it it's your problem. stop trolling, it's obvious you can't miss with feedback, but fungals CAN prevent you from ever getting in range. stop trolling, it's obvious you can't miss with fungal, but feedback CAN prevent infestors from ever casting fungal.
Lol guys stop feeding the troll
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On September 09 2011 14:19 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:17 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:14 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:11 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:09 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:08 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:07 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:06 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:05 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 BeeNu wrote:
[quote]
You act like I haven't tried it before? I've tried it many, many times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gets absolutely demolished by a player who knows how to micro. can't micro if you fungal can't fungal if you micro actually fungal is instant and can be used at 9 range with more radius than storm. If you miss with it it's your problem. actually feedback is instant and can be used at 9 range with obvious support from army. If you miss with it it's your problem. stop trolling, it's obvious you can't miss with feedback, but fungals CAN prevent you from ever getting in range. stop trolling, it's obvious you can't miss with fungal, but feedback CAN prevent infestors from ever casting fungal. Hey this is about neural parasite, fungal has already been buffed and nerfed. I already made my point about neural, so if you want to continue talking about fungal, go ahead, but I'm not gonna follow along. ask desrow, he's the one who brought up neural parasite into the discussion when feedback was mentioned. god damn man...what did Desrow ever do to you to hate him that much? did he cannon rush you for strait 50 games or what?
i actually love him bro. i love everything about him <3
but yeah, ask deskrow why he brought up neural parasite into discussion when feedback was mentioned.
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This can't be the only change they issue with NP. It would have to cost less energy/be less expensive upgrade. Otherwise it is effectively removed from the game. There would be very few situations where the cost of NP would be justified.
While theory-crafting is in full gear.
To defeat the thors zergs can still fungal any mass repairing scvs and throw up infested terrans to increase overall dps.
Contaminate could also begin to be seen as a part of standard play. Thors take a long time to build and a few contaminates could delay thor pushes by enough to get out the roaches needed to combat it.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 14:20 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:18 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 14:13 Dommk wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:58 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:56 kheldorin wrote:On September 09 2011 13:51 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:48 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:44 Nomad123 wrote:[quote] it's ok grimjim, i pointed out to him that he's wrong. feedback & fungal are same range. i'll assume he'll conveniently be quiet now, and should start to learn how to use HT and feedback dood there's something wrong with you YES on paper they have the same range BUT the "AOE" of fungal hits further than feedback dont make me go in game and use paint WTF are u that dumb ? not as dumb as someone who equates forum posts with game understanding yes it's "AOE", so? you can't walk? your HT walk too slow? your HT so alone that opponent can walk the extra 2 range to fungal you? see my point now? it's same range, while you can argue that it adds 2 range cause its AOE, reality is, in battle HTs aren't alone, and infestors can't just walk up to HT straight up. learn to spread out your HT. all your arguments have been bullocks (broodlords, movement speed, etc.). fact is, if opponent got to fungal you, then you did something wrong cause you should be able to feedback him too. What are you talking about?? Infestors are not going to go forward to fungal HTs. They will be fungalling the main army and since the main army is usually faster than the HTs, they will be about 2 hexes infront. Which means in practice the infestors will be in range of the main army while the HTs will be out of range of the infestors. With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players. yup that's exactly my point. read it again (heck, read all the quotes, it's desrow that's pointing out the thing that you're pointing out against lol) Read what you just agreed with again. Here, I'll repost it for you: "With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players." Yeah. Play better and don't get hit by feedbacks. Fungal does actually outrange feedback by virtue of being an aoe. If you can't accept that, you're an idiot. Also, if the high templar are at the front of the army to feedback, you can fungal them. If they are in the back, you can cast your spells before feedback goes off. "but protoss players just have a lot more better micro than zerg players", then it won't be trouble for protoss players to feedback them. that's why i agree. and play better and don't get hit by fungals "and play better and don't get hit by fungals " ROFL, do you actually play this game? No he actually doesn't, his account has no ladder games played this or last season: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/2277952/1/Nomad/Oh, and apparently, according to his TL post, he's platinum. so if i'm platinum...why don't i have ladder games played? something's wrong here...
Hey, you're the one with the post on Team Liquid claiming that you are platinum, I just took the account that you posted on Team liquid as belonging to you and looked it up. It says you have no games played this or previous season.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195219#15
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Every major change Blizzard has made has been to remove options from the game. Amulet, Void Ray speed, 250mm Strike Cannon, Reapers, Neural Parasite now, and I'm sure others I can't think of off the top of my head.
I would honestly prefer the complete opposite strategy for balancing purposes.
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I'm fucking switching to Terran. I'm done.
I mean, can't target massive? It's not like Zerg even has a favorable match up vs Terran these days, it's even at best. How do we stop Thor pushes, especially since Contaminate energy has been increased? How do we stop Colossi? Actually, wasn't the reason that Zealot/Archon kinda fell out of style against Z because of NP effectively taking Archons out of the mix? Without NP... jesus.
I don't know man.... I don't know.
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On September 09 2011 14:18 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:10 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:09 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 14:06 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:06 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 14:04 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 14:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:58 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:56 kheldorin wrote:On September 09 2011 13:51 Nomad123 wrote:[quote] not as dumb as someone who equates forum posts with game understanding yes it's "AOE", so? you can't walk? your HT walk too slow? your HT so alone that opponent can walk the extra 2 range to fungal you? see my point now? it's same range, while you can argue that it adds 2 range cause its AOE, reality is, in battle HTs aren't alone, and infestors can't just walk up to HT straight up. learn to spread out your HT. all your arguments have been bullocks (broodlords, movement speed, etc.). fact is, if opponent got to fungal you, then you did something wrong cause you should be able to feedback him too. What are you talking about?? Infestors are not going to go forward to fungal HTs. They will be fungalling the main army and since the main army is usually faster than the HTs, they will be about 2 hexes infront. Which means in practice the infestors will be in range of the main army while the HTs will be out of range of the infestors. With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players. yup that's exactly my point. read it again (heck, read all the quotes, it's desrow that's pointing out the thing that you're pointing out against lol) Read what you just agreed with again. Here, I'll repost it for you: "With 2 people of equal skill, infestors should never get feedbacked but Protoss players just have a lot more better micro than Zerg players." Yeah. Play better and don't get hit by feedbacks. Fungal does actually outrange feedback by virtue of being an aoe. If you can't accept that, you're an idiot. Also, if the high templar are at the front of the army to feedback, you can fungal them. If they are in the back, you can cast your spells before feedback goes off. "but protoss players just have a lot more better micro than zerg players", then it won't be trouble for protoss players to feedback them. that's why i agree. and play better and don't get hit by fungals why do you act all condescending, what league are you in? as condescending as "who the hell are you?" said by desrow? i can do better Anyway I just think you shouldn't get into an argument if you don't really know what you're talking about, cuz thus far you have only been embarassing yourself.... so my advice to you is to just drop it why i'm touched that you care so much about me. thanks for your advice. i'll gladly ignore it though if i may. Didn't expect you to be smart about all of this, feel free to make a fool of yourself even more
He won't get the chance to do so.
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On September 09 2011 14:16 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 14:13 Spectorials wrote:On September 09 2011 14:10 Sajaki wrote:On September 09 2011 14:09 Spectorials wrote:
A serious question:
What unit WOULD you neural after this change? Can only think of HT or Ghost?
Might as well remove the ability :S? Siege tanks, voidrays and immortals. They're the next biggest ones to come to mind. But you don't build Infestors for 2 out of 3 of those... Also Voidrays its more energy efficient to use fungal and infested terran. Are you saying Zerg only make Infestors for NP? Because virtually EVERY ZvP transitions into Infestor mid/late game, regardless of what the Protoss is going...just because of Fungals.
No I'm saying that if their unit composition is heavy Immortal for example then build lots of Infestors is silly.
Infestors are built for their utility against units that come out of the same unit producing structures.
What I'm saying is that NP on those units is a waste of energy and hence the spell would be useless if they made this change.
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I feel that if the Corrupter itself didn't feel like such a waste after you get them (Vikings can at least land to harass or help out in battle after the col are dead) this wouldn't be that big of a deal. I always feel that once I get corruptors, if I'm not getting BLs soon I've just got a bunch of wasted supply flying around if the enemy switches away from col tech. They're just so 1 dimensional.
I mean, sure they can corrupt things but when you're getting 2-3 Corruptors for every Col you might end up with 9-12 of them. What do you do with them once corruption is used up? They might end up being with the only units that survive after the fight and are basically useless for 45s until the CD is over.
Even Dustin Browder has called the Corruptor "lame" and "meh":
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6325853/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-qanda-with-dustin-browder
If we study the game, for example, you would say that the corruptor is lame. Don't get us wrong; they're useful. If there are a lot of colossi, you need corruptors. If there are dark templars, you need overseers. They have a battle function for a situation, but what new battle strategies and tactics do they add in the game? Compare the two to the mutalisks; a player can raid, harass. They can get board control; they can decimate opponents without antiair. Party, right? Having those guys around changes the match. Corruptors? Meh. You build colossi, I build corruptors; end of story.
Give the Corruptor some use that's worthwhile, something that makes people want to build them other than it being the only option. Having a unit feel like dead weight after you've used them because they can't do anything else until the opponent does something isn't very fun.
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it is back to the dark days of roach/hydra/corrupter into rofl stomped by toss deathball. Thanks blizz, Neural wasnt even OP, this change makes no sense what so ever. Really, how does blizz expect zerg to kill a turtling mech or collossus style?
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On September 09 2011 14:21 how2TL wrote:
Every major change Blizzard has made has been to remove options from the game. Amulet, Void Ray speed, 250mm Strike Cannon, Reapers, Neural Parasite now, and I'm sure others I can't think of off the top of my head.
I would honestly prefer the complete opposite strategy for balancing purposes.
Hmm, I have been questioning this approach by Blizzard. I just had an idea. I wonder if they are doing this in order to make room for some of the new stuff in the expansion.
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On September 09 2011 14:20 justsomeguy wrote:
This can't be the only change they issue with NP. It would have to cost less energy/be less expensive upgrade. Otherwise it is effectively removed from the game. There would be very few situations where the cost of NP would be justified.
While theory-crafting is in full gear.
To defeat the thors zergs can still fungal any mass repairing scvs and throw up infested terrans to increase overall dps.
Contaminate could also begin to be seen as a part of standard play. Thors take a long time to build and a few contaminates could delay thor pushes by enough to get out the roaches needed to combat it.
great post. now that overseers are going to be standard play like getting observers are, zerg players now have contaminate as a part of their arsenal. My ZvP just got a whole lost scarier though b/c Archons, Void Rays, and Motherships are going to be beasts now.
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holy......
NP got nerfed hard, that's new. From a terran perspective I'd say this will help out tons in going mech TvZ, they won't be able to NP your thors and target your siege tanks. Wow... didn't expect that, terran got an indirect buff.
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On September 09 2011 13:53 NineteenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:51 BeeNu wrote:On September 09 2011 13:36 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol, this is how toss felt when khaydarian amulet was removed. Anyway, the infestor was just too good of a unit. Good against sentries, void rays, carriers, mothership, zealots, stalkers, pheonixes, archons, collosi, dts, observers, and probes. Good for defending, as well as attacking, as well as harrassing. In a strategy game when there's a unit that's good at everything the correct phrase to drescribe it is: overpowered
p.s. left the high templar out cause that's debatable.
Don't worry guys, the ghost is next. Sure I can kinda agree with that, Infestors fill too many roles. What you're failing to realize is that the Hydralisk and Corruptor [and to a lesser extent the Ultralisk] are almost entirely useless units. I'm all for this nerf if Blizzard wants to go ahead and fix some of the glaring problems Zerg has, but in the mean time this is ridiculous. I agree the other units (in comparison to the infestor) are not as good at all. In fact, no unit is when compared to the infestor. However, zerg already has a unit to deal (I'm only talking about zvp/pvz here) with collosi - the corrupter. If anything, this is going to give zergs an easier transition into broodlords.
Corruptors are awful. Short range, expensive, need a metric asston of them to take down a collosus heavy army (4-6) at which point the protoss warps in 16 stalkers and kills you because you have 24 supply and 1200 gas wasted in Corruptors.
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If this goes through I am done with zerg, I'll just go protoss because zerg won't stand a chance vs mech or collosi deathball
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Wow, the preemptive whining by the Zerg players is insane. Just because of an NP change, they're pushing for buffs for hydras and corruptors?? All of the recent GSL wins by Zergs against Protoss didn't even involve NP being used.
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Also on top of allllllllll of this discussion...
EMP has a greater range than NP
Feedback has the same range as NP
So basically in the current game it only works on massive units if you FAIL TO EMP OR FEEDBACK.
This is not an imbalance, it's called learning to use the units and abilities you currently have available to you???
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EPT
