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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 01 2011 01:47 shizna wrote:
what's the problem with blizzard slightly reverting the fungal buff?
are they supposed to buff the rest of the entire game every time they make a spell slightly overpowered?
it does 6 less damage anyway... hardly noticable. i think the point was to make the bonus damage more consistent with the rest of the game rather than increase by a percentage.
but it is dealing damager per half a second, not instant. 6 damage reduction means medivac can heal up marines
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On September 01 2011 01:39 CeriseCherries wrote:
-.- You can pretty much tell what race someone is by their comments... I honestly think all the changes make lot of sense -.-
Well, some of them really makes sense, others does not... For instance, Immortal range buff, HSM/Mothership buff makes a lot of sense, but Ultra build time and half-damage-same-cost Infernal Pre-Igniter changes are questionable... Also, I'm not so sure about 65 seconds Barracks build time, but it doesn't seems so serious like other two.
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On September 01 2011 02:27 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:20 Stiluz wrote:Reading all the infestor whine, *which is being nerfed*, and is one of the few actually good units Zerg has (making up for all the bad ones) makes me so happy TL users are not in charge of balance. Since the fucking release, every time Zerg players were "whining" Protoss and Terran just said everything was a l2p issue and "nomnom delicious Zerg tears". Well, I think it's time now that Protss and Terran learn to play and adapt. I facepalm every time a Zerg goes infestor and the opponent refuses to answer with an appropriate number of Ghosts/HTs and/or some micro. In the meanwhile I'll enjoy all the delicious Terran and Protoss tears, nomnom  And I think you are a f***ing hypocrite, like the majority of those zerg whiners...
Sure, but so is everyone that is talking balance, since we're all very biased for our own races :D (whether conciously or unconciously).
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On September 01 2011 02:21 Willes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 01:48 GLLvz wrote:
AND Both Zerg's/Protosses in korea consistently say that ZVP is unbeatable atm. ...
source ?
There is none. And I'm pretty sure you know that very well too lol.
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Spawning Pool / Gateway are 65 seconds, you might look at it that way..?
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On September 01 2011 02:22 Belial88 wrote:
And just because Zerg were winning before, doesn't mean the race was okay. If you watch the games, you'll notice there's a lot of issues, and metagame at play. For instance, for 2 months we saw Zerg stomping Protoss going FFE with roach/ling all-in. Now, we know it's a joke of a build - build an extra cannon (ie a 2nd cannon), scout and see if has roaches before lair or no drones at all. Pretty straightforward.
We also have the games of Nestea and Losira recently going fast third hatch against FFE, and crushing P with mass ling/roach. Has nothing to do with infestors, or end-game.
And if you actually watch the games that went far in, you saw that Protoss stomped Zerg. As in Zerg had zero chance to win once 2+ colossi existed. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor always loses to macro, stakler/colossi, but a lot of P focused on stargate and 'cute' DT play and similar tactics, when if you watch macro games, P always won. Just watch any game with Idra, who relies on macro instead of trying to do weird timings like Losira or Nestea did in ZvP. He always loses to stalker/colossi, straight up, even when he outplays the opponent with drops and more bases.
And you are aware that Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is actually more expensive than Stalker/Colossi armies right? So no, it's not 'P has 2x more invested'. And nevermind that roach/hydra/corruptor is usually 200 supply vs 140 supply, and still gets rolled.
Zerg's only counter to Colossi is infestors. Coruptors are more expensive and shitter than vikings, and just don't do anything aftewrads, and Hydras/roaches are wrecked by sentries and blink stalkers. Before the infestor buff, Zerg could not play against Protoss in end-game.
Also, take a look at the GSLs. The first two - well, ZvT has always been very balanced, and everyone has usually agreed with that barring the complaints about bunkers or 2 raxes here and there, or scouting (not to mention Rainbow played like a gold league scrub in the finals... seriously, double thor rush for defense against mutas as an opening?). And then there was MKP's mass marine style, which was a joke - when you watch games like Kyrix, you realize the only reason he won was because Zerg's kept trying to all-in baneling bust, and never made drones afterwards (kryix never had more than 50 drones the entire series).
Infestors are bad in ZvT, everyone knows that. Going Ling/Infestor as an opening gets smashed by siege tanks, the main problem for Zerg as it is in ZvT. It does work well, however, against Terran who get caught out of position, or who don't make siege tanks. But that's not an issue of infestors, but just a bad Terran. In endgame, BL/Infestor works well, but it's extremely cost inefficient against viking/siege tank, or just ghosts, and only serves to end games Zerg has already won (you will never see a Zerg win a game with BL/Infestor when on even base to Terran, only when they have already well won the game by getting 2+ bases).
In ZvP, we had games like Nestea vs Anypro. The guy who makes 10 gateways on 2 base because he starts to bank minerals and his macro is so damn shitty. Wasn't he the same guy who destroyed his own pylon on Terminus because it blocked his nexus for a FFE? The same guy who went DT expand in every game on the series, and Nestea handled them perfectly and even began to blind counter the DTs?
But you saw the games with July vs MC right? MC had no chance against the macro play of MC in lategame. Whenever Zerg get to endgame against P, they just always lose to stalker/sentry/colossi. And they have no chance anyways, roach/hydra/corruptor is more expensive - so somehow, they must have gotten a huge economic lead - to fight with units that just get owned by P so hardcore.
We saw players like Sen start to utilize baneling rain however. And it's pretty good. But July vs MC XelNaga showed how easily you can micro away from baneling rain. And then all protoss figured out you just blink and split from it, not to mention any air opening owns baneling rain. It's a good play, but it's extremely difficult to pull off, and it's just a matter of whether or not P micros away from it.
lmao are these troll posts?
Z has been destroying P in the GSL, across the board, for the past 2 months.
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Zerg can't win voidray/colossi/GW deathball. It's just not possible. Zerg destroyes Protoss's in gsl, because they all rush, and thanks to Blizz rushing is easier than defending it.
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On September 01 2011 02:38 RinconH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:22 Belial88 wrote:
And just because Zerg were winning before, doesn't mean the race was okay. If you watch the games, you'll notice there's a lot of issues, and metagame at play. For instance, for 2 months we saw Zerg stomping Protoss going FFE with roach/ling all-in. Now, we know it's a joke of a build - build an extra cannon (ie a 2nd cannon), scout and see if has roaches before lair or no drones at all. Pretty straightforward.
We also have the games of Nestea and Losira recently going fast third hatch against FFE, and crushing P with mass ling/roach. Has nothing to do with infestors, or end-game.
And if you actually watch the games that went far in, you saw that Protoss stomped Zerg. As in Zerg had zero chance to win once 2+ colossi existed. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor always loses to macro, stakler/colossi, but a lot of P focused on stargate and 'cute' DT play and similar tactics, when if you watch macro games, P always won. Just watch any game with Idra, who relies on macro instead of trying to do weird timings like Losira or Nestea did in ZvP. He always loses to stalker/colossi, straight up, even when he outplays the opponent with drops and more bases.
And you are aware that Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is actually more expensive than Stalker/Colossi armies right? So no, it's not 'P has 2x more invested'. And nevermind that roach/hydra/corruptor is usually 200 supply vs 140 supply, and still gets rolled.
Zerg's only counter to Colossi is infestors. Coruptors are more expensive and shitter than vikings, and just don't do anything aftewrads, and Hydras/roaches are wrecked by sentries and blink stalkers. Before the infestor buff, Zerg could not play against Protoss in end-game.
Also, take a look at the GSLs. The first two - well, ZvT has always been very balanced, and everyone has usually agreed with that barring the complaints about bunkers or 2 raxes here and there, or scouting (not to mention Rainbow played like a gold league scrub in the finals... seriously, double thor rush for defense against mutas as an opening?). And then there was MKP's mass marine style, which was a joke - when you watch games like Kyrix, you realize the only reason he won was because Zerg's kept trying to all-in baneling bust, and never made drones afterwards (kryix never had more than 50 drones the entire series).
Infestors are bad in ZvT, everyone knows that. Going Ling/Infestor as an opening gets smashed by siege tanks, the main problem for Zerg as it is in ZvT. It does work well, however, against Terran who get caught out of position, or who don't make siege tanks. But that's not an issue of infestors, but just a bad Terran. In endgame, BL/Infestor works well, but it's extremely cost inefficient against viking/siege tank, or just ghosts, and only serves to end games Zerg has already won (you will never see a Zerg win a game with BL/Infestor when on even base to Terran, only when they have already well won the game by getting 2+ bases).
In ZvP, we had games like Nestea vs Anypro. The guy who makes 10 gateways on 2 base because he starts to bank minerals and his macro is so damn shitty. Wasn't he the same guy who destroyed his own pylon on Terminus because it blocked his nexus for a FFE? The same guy who went DT expand in every game on the series, and Nestea handled them perfectly and even began to blind counter the DTs?
But you saw the games with July vs MC right? MC had no chance against the macro play of MC in lategame. Whenever Zerg get to endgame against P, they just always lose to stalker/sentry/colossi. And they have no chance anyways, roach/hydra/corruptor is more expensive - so somehow, they must have gotten a huge economic lead - to fight with units that just get owned by P so hardcore.
We saw players like Sen start to utilize baneling rain however. And it's pretty good. But July vs MC XelNaga showed how easily you can micro away from baneling rain. And then all protoss figured out you just blink and split from it, not to mention any air opening owns baneling rain. It's a good play, but it's extremely difficult to pull off, and it's just a matter of whether or not P micros away from it. lmao are these troll posts? Z has been destroying P in the GSL, across the board, for the past 2 months.
I actually think the guy is serious. He must be the only zerg having trouble against protoss atm.
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On September 01 2011 02:33 ToastieNL wrote:
Spawning Pool / Gateway are 65 seconds, you might look at it that way..?
That is a very bad way to look at it. For instance:
Marine takes 25 seconds to build, meanwhile chrono boosted zealot takes 19 seconds, so defending proxy gate/in base gate builds will be even harder. Same goes for cannon rushes, due to later bunkers(well, this one doesn't seem to be a serious problem in TvP). The main reason was the 11/11 rax build IMO, but those 5 seconds will totally fuck it up lol. Not only the first marines will come 5 seconds later (which is already huge for 11/11 rax) but the bunker itself will be started 5 seconds later. I mean, this could possibly remove that possibility to deny the hatch first builds from zergs, which will make the 11/11 rax build unavailable(because you sacrifice so much economy to do it). Builds like 12/13 Rax in TvZ won't be changed much(because they are meant to harass zerg, make him build lings/spines and then to allow you to expand), but they seem to be inferior to 11/11 rax and some gas openings. Also, this will affect TvP, because probe will stay in your base for 5 seconds longer, so your gas/second barracks will be later too  .
But this change doesn't bother me so much, if they will make barracks to take 65 seconds to build, so be it, as long as in-base proxy gate builds doesn't fuck up Terrans :>.
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On September 01 2011 02:48 Pinna wrote:
Zerg can't win voidray/colossi/GW deathball. It's just not possible. Zerg destroyes Protoss's in gsl, because they all rush, and thanks to Blizz rushing is easier than defending it.
Wait whaa-aaat? I don't know if you're trolling or actually a zerg whiner, but just in case, go have you head checked, you might have a concussion 
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On September 01 2011 02:48 Pinna wrote:
Zerg can't win voidray/colossi/GW deathball. It's just not possible. Zerg destroyes Protoss's in gsl, because they all rush, and thanks to Blizz rushing is easier than defending it.
even LiquidRet who won the EU blizzard invitational said that infester , ling, and broodlords are unstoppable late game... get your facts straight
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P death ball was unstoppable like what 3-4-5 months ago?? Jeeze zergs really don't worry about that anymore
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On September 01 2011 02:50 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:33 ToastieNL wrote:
Spawning Pool / Gateway are 65 seconds, you might look at it that way..? That is a very bad way to look at it. For instance: Marine takes 25 seconds to build, meanwhile chrono boosted zealot takes 19 seconds, so defending proxy gate/in base gate builds will be even harder.
chronoboosted zealots prior to warp gate don't take 19s but 28s to build so your argument fails a little.
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On September 01 2011 02:38 RinconH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:22 Belial88 wrote:
And just because Zerg were winning before, doesn't mean the race was okay. If you watch the games, you'll notice there's a lot of issues, and metagame at play. For instance, for 2 months we saw Zerg stomping Protoss going FFE with roach/ling all-in. Now, we know it's a joke of a build - build an extra cannon (ie a 2nd cannon), scout and see if has roaches before lair or no drones at all. Pretty straightforward.
We also have the games of Nestea and Losira recently going fast third hatch against FFE, and crushing P with mass ling/roach. Has nothing to do with infestors, or end-game.
And if you actually watch the games that went far in, you saw that Protoss stomped Zerg. As in Zerg had zero chance to win once 2+ colossi existed. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor always loses to macro, stakler/colossi, but a lot of P focused on stargate and 'cute' DT play and similar tactics, when if you watch macro games, P always won. Just watch any game with Idra, who relies on macro instead of trying to do weird timings like Losira or Nestea did in ZvP. He always loses to stalker/colossi, straight up, even when he outplays the opponent with drops and more bases.
And you are aware that Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is actually more expensive than Stalker/Colossi armies right? So no, it's not 'P has 2x more invested'. And nevermind that roach/hydra/corruptor is usually 200 supply vs 140 supply, and still gets rolled.
Zerg's only counter to Colossi is infestors. Coruptors are more expensive and shitter than vikings, and just don't do anything aftewrads, and Hydras/roaches are wrecked by sentries and blink stalkers. Before the infestor buff, Zerg could not play against Protoss in end-game.
Also, take a look at the GSLs. The first two - well, ZvT has always been very balanced, and everyone has usually agreed with that barring the complaints about bunkers or 2 raxes here and there, or scouting (not to mention Rainbow played like a gold league scrub in the finals... seriously, double thor rush for defense against mutas as an opening?). And then there was MKP's mass marine style, which was a joke - when you watch games like Kyrix, you realize the only reason he won was because Zerg's kept trying to all-in baneling bust, and never made drones afterwards (kryix never had more than 50 drones the entire series).
Infestors are bad in ZvT, everyone knows that. Going Ling/Infestor as an opening gets smashed by siege tanks, the main problem for Zerg as it is in ZvT. It does work well, however, against Terran who get caught out of position, or who don't make siege tanks. But that's not an issue of infestors, but just a bad Terran. In endgame, BL/Infestor works well, but it's extremely cost inefficient against viking/siege tank, or just ghosts, and only serves to end games Zerg has already won (you will never see a Zerg win a game with BL/Infestor when on even base to Terran, only when they have already well won the game by getting 2+ bases).
In ZvP, we had games like Nestea vs Anypro. The guy who makes 10 gateways on 2 base because he starts to bank minerals and his macro is so damn shitty. Wasn't he the same guy who destroyed his own pylon on Terminus because it blocked his nexus for a FFE? The same guy who went DT expand in every game on the series, and Nestea handled them perfectly and even began to blind counter the DTs?
But you saw the games with July vs MC right? MC had no chance against the macro play of MC in lategame. Whenever Zerg get to endgame against P, they just always lose to stalker/sentry/colossi. And they have no chance anyways, roach/hydra/corruptor is more expensive - so somehow, they must have gotten a huge economic lead - to fight with units that just get owned by P so hardcore.
We saw players like Sen start to utilize baneling rain however. And it's pretty good. But July vs MC XelNaga showed how easily you can micro away from baneling rain. And then all protoss figured out you just blink and split from it, not to mention any air opening owns baneling rain. It's a good play, but it's extremely difficult to pull off, and it's just a matter of whether or not P micros away from it. lmao are these troll posts? Z has been destroying P in the GSL, across the board, for the past 2 months.
Really? If you take a look at the statistics the last GSL there were 1 single Z which skewed the stats, which was Nestea ( surprise, he didn't lose a single game ) in code S. If you take a look at code A stats it's PvZ is 50% last GSL. This season is a bit to early to tell yet. But troll ahead.
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lol if the actual Korean stats mean anything, as have been posted in a few OPs with nice graphs by someone who compiled the data (I'll link once I get home, as I have them on my comp.), Protoss is terribad in Korea.
I don't know why a few people are making claims that Zerg in Korea never beats them. Don't spread such ludicrous misinformation, please.
EDIT:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090
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On September 01 2011 02:31 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 01:39 CeriseCherries wrote:
-.- You can pretty much tell what race someone is by their comments... I honestly think all the changes make lot of sense -.- Well, some of them really makes sense, others does not... For instance, Immortal range buff, HSM/Mothership buff makes a lot of sense, but Ultra build time and half-damage-same-cost Infernal Pre-Igniter changes are questionable... Also, I'm not so sure about 65 seconds Barracks build time, but it doesn't seems so serious like other two.
You're terran. Haha, thats hilarious.
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To everyOne saying FG nerf isn't actually a nerf because same number of FGs to kill, you're not thinking about the damage reduction making zergs have to cast more carefully to maximize damage. It's often impossible to land perfectly timed out FGs because the infesters die so fast when they are in range of anything (ie tank, colo, stalker, marine, marauder). It's only the same amOunt of FGs to kill assuming perfectly timed fungals. Doesn't happen too often in real games. In fact, I often see a pile of burnt infester corpses under thermal lance when trying to FG a Protoss army multiple times.
EDIT: See MvPDongRaeGu vs Trickster at MLG Raleigh, Game 2. (http://sc2casts.com/cast5235-MvPDongraegu-vs-Trickster-Best-of-3-MLG-Raleigh-Pool-play)
DRG even had a huge advantage, but when he tried to engage against just 2 colossus, his infesters were melted away and he lost the game. The infester nerf is going to make this situation happen a lot more often.
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The zergs who are still having trouble with protoss death balls are the ones who are still using roach/hydra/corrupter. It is really as simple as that.
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On September 01 2011 03:37 TSL-Lore wrote:
To everyOne saying FG nerf isn't actually a nerf because same number of FGs to kill, you're not thinking about the damage reduction making zergs have to cast more carefully to maximize damage. It's often impossible to land perfectly timed out FGs because the infesters die so fast when they are in range of anything (ie tank, colo, stalker, marine, marauder). It's only the same amOunt of FGs to kill assuming perfectly timed fungals. Doesn't happen too often in real games. In fact, I often see a pile of burnt infester corpses under thermal lance when trying to FG a Protoss army multiple times.
marine.. stalker.. marauder?
I should say you fungal growth =/= banelings
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Could anyone give me some explanation for the barracks build time increase?
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EPT
