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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Akhee
Brazil811 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:44 Gatored wrote: The zergs who are still having trouble with protoss death balls are the ones who are still using roach/hydra/corrupter. It is really as simple as that. full energy infestor is the strongest unit in this game by far t_t don't get why blizzard thinks entangle effect with very high dps is a good idea | ||
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Akhee
Brazil811 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:45 aguy38 wrote: Could anyone give me some explanation for the barracks build time increase? 2rax, delaying everything else like factories, starport (very little nerf 1-1-1) | ||
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bole
Serbia164 Posts
death ball can contered by pre inf buff = by banglings drops... problem is that idra as zerg player alweys try to conter deth ball with mass coroptrors... and that is mestace in my opinion (simply coroptors are wery week unite (you can build 4 or 5 but not more)) key to win agenst death ball is to kill senturys with FF... after FF is down you can owerun toss.. now infestr is to much to hendel as toss or terran or eaven zerg ( i whatch destany ZvZ he made wholl army pop of infestrs... and kill ultrass and everything  lol )and you can see that inf do the job of 3 unites graund air light armored massive drops(buroved inf) its yust joke of unite ... | ||
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
idra isn't all zergs god dang it..to the person above me | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 01 2011 02:48 Pinna wrote: Zerg can't win voidray/colossi/GW deathball. It's just not possible. Zerg destroyes Protoss's in gsl, because they all rush, and thanks to Blizz rushing is easier than defending it. Lol infestors and baneling drops destroy that, get real. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:07 freetgy wrote: chronoboosted zealots prior to warp gate don't take 19s but 28s to build so your argument fails a little. Sorry, my bad. But that doesn't change the main idea. And you are a zerg, so fucking what lol ?... I'm already sick of explaining why Infernal-Preigniter's cost shouldn't be freaking 150/150 if the damage is lowered by half, but when somebody replies with such a stupid comment I don't think it is worth it anymore. | ||
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gentile
Switzerland594 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:45 aguy38 wrote: Could anyone give me some explanation for the barracks build time increase? 11/11 rax vs zerg..should be it. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:47 Akhee wrote: 2rax, delaying everything else like factories, starport (very little nerf 1-1-1) No. It's a nerf to 11/11 Rax/Proxy Rax against hatch first in TvZ. | ||
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Nightrain
481 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:51 oogieogie wrote: 30 damage fungal means probably 2 perfect fungals to kill a marine healed by a medivac? i bet it will take 3 to kill a marine ball which is pretty bad..but hey lets see how this works out more. idra isn't all zergs god dang it..to the person above me medivac healing rate is almost equal to fungal dps according to my tests, which is pretty awesome ^^ 2 fungals will surely kill a lot of marines in a marineball, only the ones that are being healed by a medivac will survive | ||
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aguy38
131 Posts
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Voltekka
4 Posts
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:59 Nightrain wrote: medivac healing rate is almost equal to fungal dps according to my tests, which is pretty awesome ^^ 2 fungals will surely kill a lot of marines in a marineball, only the ones that are being healed by a medivac will survive well the thing is you usually have a good number of medivacs when you do medivac/marine/tank? idk i just think fungal should only take 2 to kill a marine ball with or without medivac support but that is my opinion. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:37 TSL-Lore wrote: To everyOne saying FG nerf isn't actually a nerf because same number of FGs to kill, you're not thinking about the damage reduction making zergs have to cast more carefully to maximize damage. It's often impossible to land perfectly timed out FGs because the infesters die so fast when they are in range of anything (ie tank, colo, stalker, marine, marauder). It's only the same amOunt of FGs to kill assuming perfectly timed fungals. Doesn't happen too often in real games. In fact, I often see a pile of burnt infester corpses under thermal lance when trying to FG a Protoss army multiple times. EDIT: See MvPDongRaeGu vs Trickster at MLG Raleigh, Game 2. (http://sc2casts.com/cast5235-MvPDongraegu-vs-Trickster-Best-of-3-MLG-Raleigh-Pool-play) DRG even had a huge advantage, but when he tried to engage against just 2 colossus, his infesters were melted away and he lost the game. The infester nerf is going to make this situation happen a lot more often. protip: infestors aren't good against protoss cause of the damage. it's cause protoss units need to move to avoid being useless, since cost-for-cost they're garbage. | ||
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:59 aguy38 wrote: Like that game with IdrA(can't remember who he was playing) that he get three bunker rushed off of a two rax? Is it a nerf to rushes like that? Yes, it will affect that rush too (but not so greatly, because you will still be pretty much fucked up if you get walled by three bunkers on shakuras natural ramp, just the marines will come slightly later). | ||
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hashaki
Norway210 Posts
On September 01 2011 03:55 Huragius wrote: Sorry, my bad. But that doesn't change the main idea. I'm already sick of explaining why Infernal-Preigniter's cost shouldn't be freaking 150/150 if the damage is lowered by half, but when somebody replies with such a stupid comment I don't think it is worth it anymore. So what? Does that mean HT should've been lowered to 25/75 in cost when Amulet was removed? Ofcourse not. (ok, bad example but you see what I'm getting at) When something is nerfed/removed/tweaked it's because it's either creating an imbalance in some way or deemed too strong. (Or something else) That does not mean costs related to the unit or the upgrade should change with it. And to be fair, his comment about you being a terran was funny, because only Terrans can fail to see how riddiculously OP BFH as a unit is. They're superfast, have AOE, rape light units with a powerdrill and only cost minerals. This is insane. This is batshit insane. And fact of the matter is, the unit will be very much the same if the change goes through, just this time around they bring a screwdriver to rape light units. No more powerdrills. The reward for going BFH can be gamechanging, and if it doesn't work out, it's not that much lost. For a Protoss to for instance go Archon/sentry/HT-drop (notice that these are all very heavy on gas and aren't close to being as effective as Hellions because workers can be sent away with the exception for sentries and forcefields, but they also take their time killing workers) the cost is huge compared to running a few BFH around the map in hope of finding an undefended base. Personally I don't think the nerf of BF-upgrade will change all that much. We'll still see lots of BFH be used, and they'll still rape minerallines (becasue running your workers away is like making them an easier target, so you gotta sort of hope they stay alive untill you get some units over there). If you ask me changing the cost of Hellions to 100/50 would make alot more sense than nerfing BF-upgrade, but that's just my take on the situation. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On September 01 2011 01:57 BeeNu wrote: Infestors hardly ruin the entire matchup. Plenty of Terran and Protoss are capable of dealing with Infestors. As for Baneling drops, sure they are strong but a large part of making that work is using Fungal to ensure you actually hit something, otherwise Blink stalkers will still never be touched. Your argument that Zerg is fine is that Nestea wins tournaments? Lol, no, Nestea wins tournaments because he's an amazing player that makes things happen, that's all there is to it. You say Koreans constantly say Infestors OP? Funny, I've heard the exact opposite from a lot of progamers as well. Also, I'm sorry Protoss is in a slump right now, maybe they need to work on new tactics, it's a real shame 90% of Protoss never had to do anything but build a giant death ball up till now. Actually protoss have used ALL their units since beta - colossi, HTs, DTs, you name it. While zerg were ignoring infestors, and have waited for Blizz to buff them and make them imbalanced, in order to start using them. And terran as well, who have discovered ghost only after a cost buff and HT nerfs. If someone should try new tactics, its Z and T. P have already tried everything out, their race has to offer, and found out, that there is nothing useful left, after all those nerfs. KA gone, flux vanes gone, 4gt gone. What Blizz should do, is reduce warp gate research time by 20 sec. Reintroduce KA, but make it plus 15, instead of the former +25 energy, or alternatively buff the range of feed back by 1 or 2. And reintroduce flux vanes, but reduce the movement speed gain to 2.75 (was 3.125 iirc). AND reduce carrier build time to 90 sec. That should get the win rate back to 50%, instead of the current 32%. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 01 2011 04:13 hashaki wrote: So what? Does that mean HT should've been lowered to 25/75 in cost when Amulet was removed? Ofcourse not. (ok, bad example but you see what I'm getting at) When something is nerfed/removed it's because it's either creating an imbalance in some way or too strong. That does not mean costs related to the unit or the upgrade should change with it. And to be fair, his comment about you being a terran was funny, because only Terrans can fail to see how riddiculously OP BFH as a unit is. They're superfast, have AOE, rape light units with a powerdrill and only cost minerals. This is insane. This is batshit insane. And fact of the matter is, the unit will be very much the same if the change goes through, just this time around they bring a screwdriver to rape light units. No more powerdrills. The reward for going BFH can be gamechanging, and if it doesn't work out, it's not that much lost. For a Protoss to for instance go Archon/sentry/HT-drop the cost is huge compared to running a few BFH around the map in hope of finding an undefended base. Personally I don't think the nerf of BF-upgrade will change all that much. We'll still see lots of BFH be used, and they'll still rape minerallines (becasue running your workers away is like making them an easier target, so you gotta sort of hope they stay alive untill you get some units over there). If you ask me changing the cost of Hellions to 100/50 would make alot more sense than nerfing BF-upgrade, but that's just my take on the situation. Riiiight. I was actually going to argue you, until I read that fucking bullshit. You don't know how to deal with hellions, and how committing is to get BFH at early game (In TvP, you will die to almost every single rush by going for them and in TvZ you MUST kill a shit ton of drones not to be behind). Mid game run-bys are another story, but that can still be prevented. 100/50, so you literally want another "reaper". The unit which was OP and got nerfed into oblivion. | ||
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hashaki
Norway210 Posts
On September 01 2011 04:23 Huragius wrote: Riiiight. I was actually going to argue you, until I read that fucking bullshit. You don't know how to deal with hellions, and how committing is to get BFH at early game (In TvP, you will die to almost every single rush by going for them and in TvZ you MUST kill a shit ton of drones not to be behind). Mid game run-bys are another story, but that can still be prevented. 100/50, so you literally want another "reaper". The unit which was OP and got nerfed into oblivion. And who says you gotta rush to BFH in the early game? O.o Besides, if you rush to BFH and haven't scouted a rush incoming, that's just bad scouting on your part. Nothing more. And no, what i want is a bit more balance in one of the fastest units that has AoE with great damage vs light | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On September 01 2011 02:50 Huragius wrote: That is a very bad way to look at it. For instance: Marine takes 25 seconds to build, meanwhile chrono boosted zealot takes 19 seconds, so defending proxy gate/in base gate builds will be even harder. Same goes for cannon rushes, due to later bunkers(well, this one doesn't seem to be a serious problem in TvP). The main reason was the 11/11 rax build IMO, but those 5 seconds will totally fuck it up lol. Not only the first marines will come 5 seconds later (which is already huge for 11/11 rax) but the bunker itself will be started 5 seconds later. I mean, this could possibly remove that possibility to deny the hatch first builds from zergs, which will make the 11/11 rax build unavailable(because you sacrifice so much economy to do it). Builds like 12/13 Rax in TvZ won't be changed much(because they are meant to harass zerg, make him build lings/spines and then to allow you to expand), but they seem to be inferior to 11/11 rax and some gas openings. Also, this will affect TvP, because probe will stay in your base for 5 seconds longer, so your gas/second barracks will be later too  .But this change doesn't bother me so much, if they will make barracks to take 65 seconds to build, so be it, as long as in-base proxy gate builds doesn't fuck up Terrans :>. It takes 28 sec. | ||
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