EPTPatch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 231
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
LOL SILLY ME | ||
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amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
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ePBuckets
Canada207 Posts
Why are they scaling down the damage of fungal when the imbalanced part of it is the snare? :S i like most of the changes though! i think PvP will finally get the diversity its been longing for. and i really like the sight change, though there are ways around it as tyler said. we'll have to see how it plays out :/ | ||
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:50 ePBuckets wrote: my question is why did K Amulet get removed when Pathogen Glands and the energy upgrade for ghosts are still in game? Why are they scaling down the damage of fungal when the imbalanced part of it is the snare? :S i like most of the changes though! i think PvP will finally get the diversity its been longing for. and i really like the sight change, though there are ways around it as tyler said. we'll have to see how it plays out :/ Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:54 imareaver3 wrote: Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... what's annoying to me as a protoss player is that every time protoss gets something that could even be called hard to deal with insofar as there isn't really obvious hard counter (i.e. warp in storms) it gets nerfed on the spot. but when terran gets long range, game changing emps and zerg gets fungal growth, the response is totally different: it's just the metagame, you need to micro better. it seems to me like protoss complaints are almost always met with 'yeah it's hard but you need to just outplay the other guy' whereas other races refuse to accept nerfs to the same sort of thing. for example, i know many terrans who think the infestor is fine but the ghost imbalanced and vice versa. this represents bias at its finest. if you were fine with KA, then you should support ghost and infestor nerfs, because they are FAR more effective than HT warp ins have ever been, and the vods prove it. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:54 imareaver3 wrote: Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... i'd rather have KA and not have wg any day. not directed towards anyone...just sayin. | ||
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imareaver3
United States906 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote: what's annoying to me as a protoss player is that every time protoss gets something that could even be called hard to deal with insofar as there isn't really obvious hard counter (i.e. warp in storms) it gets nerfed on the spot. but when terran gets long range, game changing emps and zerg gets fungal growth, the response is totally different: it's just the metagame, you need to micro better. it seems to me like protoss complaints are almost always met with 'yeah it's hard but you need to just outplay the other guy' whereas other races refuse to accept nerfs to the same sort of thing. for example, i know many terrans who think the infestor is fine but the ghost imbalanced and vice versa. this represents bias at its finest. if you were fine with KA, then you should support ghost and infestor nerfs, because they are FAR more effective than HT warp ins have ever been, and the vods prove it. Okay, firstly, infestors are getting nerfed. Secondly, there's the issue of front-loaded warpgates. Okay, let's say you began production of an HT and an infestor. The HT would complete in 5 seconds and remain in your army for the next ~30 game seconds before it could storm. So, ~35 game seconds after you order HT creation, you have a storm-capable HT in your army. With KA, this came down to 5 seconds. For infestors or ghosts, you have to wait ~40 seconds for them to be produced, then another ~20 seconds for them to join your army. So even post-nerf, P can use front-loading to get their storms much faster than other races can get ghosts or infestors. If PG or MR (Has anyone ever used those acronyms before? Lol) were removed, then HT's with storm would come out three times faster than their counterparts if building orders were issued at the same time. | ||
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PuercoPop
Peru277 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:54 imareaver3 wrote: Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... They could have gone a less drastic route. I would have prefered KA bien a +20 Upgrade instead of +25 | ||
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SardonicSamurai
United States10 Posts
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Jomer
United States32 Posts
On September 01 2011 11:13 imareaver3 wrote: Okay, firstly, infestors are getting nerfed. Secondly, there's the issue of front-loaded warpgates. Okay, let's say you began production of an HT and an infestor. The HT would complete in 5 seconds and remain in your army for the next ~30 game seconds before it could storm. So, ~35 game seconds after you order HT creation, you have a storm-capable HT in your army. With KA, this came down to 5 seconds. For infestors or ghosts, you have to wait ~40 seconds for them to be produced, then another ~20 seconds for them to join your army. So even post-nerf, P can use front-loading to get their storms much faster than other races can get ghosts or infestors. If PG or MR (Has anyone ever used those acronyms before? Lol) were removed, then HT's with storm would come out three times faster than their counterparts if building orders were issued at the same time. If your reasoning regarding arrival times weren't horrifically flawed, you would have a point. However, reason out why Protoss domination of Terran and Zerg didn't materialize during the KA heyday, because as strong as Psy Storm is, getting it out "three times faster" would be the go-to Protoss strategy. Win rates just don't bear that out in any league, at any stage of the game pre- or post-release. Psy Storm could only be beelined to in Bronze, and whether people won with it is irrelevant since Bronze last existed pre-release. As MC said (Milkis tweeted, check it yourself) Protoss needs pre-tier-3 splash. Why cry about M&M and subsequent variations otherwise? As for front-loading via Warp Gate: troll on, brother! | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:04 Jomer wrote: If your reasoning regarding arrival times weren't horrifically flawed, you would have a point. However, reason out why Protoss domination of Terran and Zerg didn't materialize during the KA heyday, because as strong as Psy Storm is, getting it out "three times faster" would be the go-to Protoss strategy. Win rates just don't bear that out in any league, at any stage of the game pre- or post-release. Psy Storm could only be beelined to in Bronze, and whether people won with it is irrelevant since Bronze last existed pre-release. As MC said (Milkis tweeted, check it yourself) Protoss needs pre-tier-3 splash. Why cry about M&M and subsequent variations otherwise? As for front-loading via Warp Gate: troll on, brother! He's not trolling, it makes a lot of sense. I railed against the KA nerf as much as anyone, but he's right. Our caster spells came online much faster than the other races', and KA was probably broken as it stood. I guess I'd put a few things forward, regardless. Having HT's on the field before they can storm offers the opponent an opportunity to snipe/kill/otherwise disable them before they are useful. This is a weakness that doesn't apply to infestors or ghosts, as those units are "safe" during their build time. HTs are also very slow, and very fragile, making them easier to snipe. Additionally, EMP can, at any stage, reset the storm cooldown from 30-seconds to over a minute and a half. We have feedback, I know. The storm-feedback debate has claimed many lives already, so I don't really want to restart it, but I'd say that talking purely in terms of "total available spells X seconds after I ask for them," EMP comes out slightly on top. Finally, and this I think is the big one; in gateway+HT versus MMMG battles, the protoss army needs storms in order to beat the terran army. If both the ghosts and the templar emp/feedback each other into oblivion so it ends up gateway (even shielded gateway) vs. MMM, the terran army should win with equal upgrades. That's why I feel our casters need to be a little more accessible than the other races,' and why at the moment I feel they are in fact less accessible. I'm happy to be wrong, that's just how I feel. | ||
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Vies
Australia57 Posts
On September 01 2011 10:50 ePBuckets wrote: my question is why did K Amulet get removed when Pathogen Glands and the energy upgrade for ghosts are still in game? Why are they scaling down the damage of fungal when the imbalanced part of it is the snare? :S i like most of the changes though! i think PvP will finally get the diversity its been longing for. and i really like the sight change, though there are ways around it as tyler said. we'll have to see how it plays out :/ Because warping in any number of HTs and storming instantly was imbalanced. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:04 Jomer wrote: If your reasoning regarding arrival times weren't horrifically flawed, you would have a point. However, reason out why Protoss domination of Terran and Zerg didn't materialize during the KA heyday, because as strong as Psy Storm is, getting it out "three times faster" would be the go-to Protoss strategy. Win rates just don't bear that out in any league, at any stage of the game pre- or post-release. Psy Storm could only be beelined to in Bronze, and whether people won with it is irrelevant since Bronze last existed pre-release. As MC said (Milkis tweeted, check it yourself) Protoss needs pre-tier-3 splash. Why cry about M&M and subsequent variations otherwise? As for front-loading via Warp Gate: troll on, brother! Stop posting shit, being able to shut down any harass and any drop instantly and being able to practically warp in storms in big battles was fucking OP. 3 storms can melt a 200/200 bio army. Stop whining and go play some Starcraft and get out of fucking gold league for a change before you talk this bullshit. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On September 01 2011 11:15 PuercoPop wrote: They could have gone a less drastic route. I would have prefered KA bien a +20 Upgrade instead of +25 No, I'm pretty sure before the KA nerf it was nearly impossible to kill a protoss in the late game. Like, I remember terrans just winning battles then getting stormed and dying at the ramp when they go in for the kill. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:25 Belisarius wrote: He's not trolling, it makes a lot of sense. I railed against the KA nerf as much as anyone, but he's right. Our caster spells came online much faster than the other races', and KA was probably broken as it stood. I guess I'd put a few things forward, regardless. Having HT's on the field before they can storm offers the opponent an opportunity to snipe/kill/otherwise disable them before they are useful. This is a weakness that doesn't apply to infestors or ghosts, as those units are "safe" during their build time. HTs are also very slow, and very fragile, making them easier to snipe. Additionally, EMP can, at any stage, reset the storm cooldown from 30-seconds to over a minute and a half. We have feedback, I know. The storm-feedback debate has claimed many lives already, so I don't really want to restart it, but I'd say that talking purely in terms of "total available spells X seconds after I ask for them," EMP comes out slightly on top. Finally, and this I think is the big one; in gateway+HT versus MMMG battles, the protoss army needs storms in order to beat the terran army. If both the ghosts and the templar emp/feedback each other into oblivion so it ends up gateway (even shielded gateway) vs. MMM, the terran army should win with equal upgrades. That's why I feel our casters need to be a little more accessible than the other races,' and why at the moment I feel they are in fact less accessible. I'm happy to be wrong, that's just how I feel. And that's why you get a few colossi in that army instead of going only gateway heavy + a few archons and templars. That army comp is asking to be steamrolled by EMP, honestly. Furthermore it only takes 1-2 storms to melt half a 200/200 bio army, while it takes perfect emps to even stand a chance against a maxed out toss army. | ||
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
If the game isn't put more into balance by the patch, the PTR won't end up utilizing the suggested changes. I think it comes down to Terrans not being able to come to terms with the idea that maybe a large portion of their wins actually comes down to their race being stronger instead of their "skills". Guys: I'm sorry you have never once had to deal with being the weakest race. I'm sorry that if things get overpatched, you might have to deal with that possibility. Until T's winrates aren't significantly above 50% for all MU's in the Korean pro scene though, please quit whining T.T Your time will come. Just be patient | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:31 VictorJones wrote: I'm blown away by the amount of QQ we are getting from Terran players.. If the game isn't put more into balance by the patch, the PTR won't end up utilizing the suggested changes. I think it comes down to Terrans not being able to come to terms with the idea that maybe a large portion of their wins actually comes down to their race being stronger instead of their "skills". Guys: I'm sorry you have never once had to deal with being the weakest race. I'm sorry that if things get overpatched, you might have to deal with that possibility. Until T's winrates aren't significantly above 50% for all MU's in the Korean pro scene though, please quit whining T.T Your time will come. Just be patient No my friend, Terran winrates in Korea are simply better because of a very simple reason. The pros playing Terran are just way to good. They all come from a SC1 background and most of them were pretty good in BW. If you don't see that then you have no idea about this game or the Korean pro scene. | ||
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exittlight
Australia271 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:31 VictorJones wrote: I'm blown away by the amount of QQ we are getting from Terran players.. If the game isn't put more into balance by the patch, the PTR won't end up utilizing the suggested changes. I think it comes down to Terrans not being able to come to terms with the idea that maybe a large portion of their wins actually comes down to their race being stronger instead of their "skills". Guys: I'm sorry you have never once had to deal with being the weakest race. I'm sorry that if things get overpatched, you might have to deal with that possibility. Until T's winrates aren't significantly above 50% for all MU's in the Korean pro scene though, please quit whining T.T Your time will come. Just be patient I think the Korean terran win rates has to do with the large amount of terran players. If you look at the foreigners there are much fewer terrans dominating. | ||
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:31 VictorJones wrote: I'm blown away by the amount of QQ we are getting from Terran players.. If the game isn't put more into balance by the patch, the PTR won't end up utilizing the suggested changes. I think it comes down to Terrans not being able to come to terms with the idea that maybe a large portion of their wins actually comes down to their race being stronger instead of their "skills". Guys: I'm sorry you have never once had to deal with being the weakest race. I'm sorry that if things get overpatched, you might have to deal with that possibility. Until T's winrates aren't significantly above 50% for all MU's in the Korean pro scene though, please quit whining T.T Your time will come. Just be patient No my friend, Terran winrates in Korea are simply better because of a very simple reason. The pros playing Terran are just way to good. They all come from a SC1 background and most of them were pretty good in BW. If you don't see that then you have no idea about this game or the Korean pro scene. I cannot even fathom how you live life with such awful biased logic t.t Just about every Korean in the GSL today comes from a SC1 background, not just terrans. This PTR thread is actually so filled with mind-rot that I might have to discard 2 cards from my hand | ||
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