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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Netherlands19135 Posts
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week.
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This patch seems to be awsome, but Ill guess that there will be complainings later on. But lets hope for the best!
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Excited for Hunter seeker missiles.  Sad blink won't be that apparent in PvP anymore. It's like, the strat I turn to all the time. I love mah blink. D:
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On September 01 2011 17:09 Nyovne wrote:
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week.
No puns intended? (I would think the text should be blue).
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Well, while 5s more of build time on barracks will help in stopping bunker rushes against Zergs and marine/tank or 111 against toss, I don't think it will be enough. They will need to nerf marines in a more direct way sooner or later, especially since Korean GM terrans are abusing them way to effectively in all these one base all in attacks. It is sad to see the sc2 revert back to one base allin after they almost got extinct for a long while.
So, while this changes are a way in a good direction it will surely not be enough.
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On September 01 2011 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Well, while 5s more of build time on barracks will help in stopping bunker rushes against Zergs and marine/tank or 111 against toss, I don't think it will be enough. They will need to nerf marines in a more direct way sooner or later, especially since Korean GM terrans are abusing them way to effectively in all these one base all in attacks. It is sad to see the sc2 revert back to one base allin after they almost got extinct for a long while.
So, while this changes are a way in a good direction it will surely not be enough.
I dont know how valid this is, but I had an idea..
Making marines do 5 damage instead of 6 at start.
However, with engineering bay upgrades, changing it to +1, +1 and then +2 at 3/3.
Just a thought.
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There is no point in giving idea on how to balance them without having all the info on the games and specific numbers and a lot of testing. That is what Blizzard guys are payed to do. And this is not a thread for that.
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Italy12246 Posts
1-1-1 is extremely difficult to balance/nerf, since every change will have major impacts in the other matchups. If you change marines, then early game zvt and tvt get messy. Same for tanks, but in the midgame. Ravens and pdd's are also being used a good deal in mech tvt. The only thing that wouldn't hurt the other terran matchups as much is a nerf to the banshee, but as seen recently it's not as important in that kind of push so mleh.
Honestly the only things i can think of is either nerf the marine in early game, and give it some kind of other upgrade to bring it up to what it currently is in midgame with another techlab upgrade, or add the effect to an existing one (say, nerf it's hp and buff combat shields), but i don't know how much that would change the other matchups. Alternatively siege mode research time could be increased or something like that, but even that would hurt zvt a huge deal so i don't see it happening.
Long story short: it's pretty much impossible to nerf terran, so maybe the way to go is to buff protoss. What i hope for is that they revert the wg research time so we can 4gate teching terrans, or even being able to 3gate expand and do good damage to delay their push.
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On September 01 2011 20:32 Teoita wrote:
1-1-1 is extremely difficult to balance/nerf, since every change will have major impacts in the other matchups. If you change marines, then early game zvt and tvt get messy. Same for tanks, but in the midgame. Ravens and pdd's are also being used a good deal in mech tvt. The only thing that wouldn't hurt the other terran matchups as much is a nerf to the banshee, but as seen recently it's not as important in that kind of push so mleh.
Honestly the only things i can think of is either nerf the marine in early game, and give it some kind of other upgrade to bring it up to what it currently is in midgame with another techlab upgrade, or add the effect to an existing one (say, nerf it's hp and buff combat shields), but i don't know how much that would change the other matchups. Alternatively siege mode research time could be increased or something like that, but even that would hurt zvt a huge deal so i don't see it happening.
Long story short: it's pretty much impossible to nerf terran, so maybe the way to go is to buff protoss. What i hope for is that they revert the wg research time so we can 4gate teching terrans, or even being able to 3gate expand and do good damage to delay their push.
blizzard will know best... but 1-1-1 is problem .. and need to be fixed.... sad but true... 
i hope in this patch becous every 2cund game i play vs terran i play vs 1-1-1...(also i cant expend beocus of that bouild...) (untill terran expend...) (like MMM before stim nerf...)(all in..)
my opinion terran need nerf (simply if you buff toss agean with warpgates PvP will be agean in dengar)
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STILL no fixed/removed close posi....
Also ultra hits didnt get fixed(if a unit moved the ultra hit did 0 damage/not connect even though the ultra did the full animation). this is not the same as the drones(that they fixed in this patch), which would have been ok anyways if the other 2 workers had it too
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I like some of them, feel sorry for others (Terrans seemed to have got the short end of the "adjust a number by 5 and see if it works!" stick this patch), and don't know enough to comment on others (fungal).
Nice to see Warp Prism are made out of double-paned glass now, as opposed to being made with spiderweb cracks already across the windshield. Immortals are now slightly less likely to do the hokey pokey behind the front lines and actually shoot at stuff. Always a plus. Overseer cost change has been a long time coming, if I remember correctly (might be thinking of Ovie speed/ventral sacs... can't remember).
Faster Ultra build time is good, because everyone knows that the awesomeness of a ZvX game is directly related to the number of Ultralisks currently on the field. I researched it (I'm a real scientist with 24 phds in researching rad stuff, by the way), and my report indicates that this will increase the rate at which games involving Zerg reach the state of awesomeness by 17%.
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On September 01 2011 12:25 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 12:04 Jomer wrote:On September 01 2011 11:13 imareaver3 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:On September 01 2011 10:54 imareaver3 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:50 ePBuckets wrote:
my question is why did K Amulet get removed when Pathogen Glands and the energy upgrade for ghosts are still in game?
Why are they scaling down the damage of fungal when the imbalanced part of it is the snare?
:S i like most of the changes though! i think PvP will finally get the diversity its been longing for. and i really like the sight change, though there are ways around it as tyler said.
we'll have to see how it plays out :/ Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... what's annoying to me as a protoss player is that every time protoss gets something that could even be called hard to deal with insofar as there isn't really obvious hard counter (i.e. warp in storms) it gets nerfed on the spot. but when terran gets long range, game changing emps and zerg gets fungal growth, the response is totally different: it's just the metagame, you need to micro better. it seems to me like protoss complaints are almost always met with 'yeah it's hard but you need to just outplay the other guy' whereas other races refuse to accept nerfs to the same sort of thing. for example, i know many terrans who think the infestor is fine but the ghost imbalanced and vice versa. this represents bias at its finest. if you were fine with KA, then you should support ghost and infestor nerfs, because they are FAR more effective than HT warp ins have ever been, and the vods prove it. Okay, firstly, infestors are getting nerfed. Secondly, there's the issue of front-loaded warpgates. Okay, let's say you began production of an HT and an infestor. The HT would complete in 5 seconds and remain in your army for the next ~30 game seconds before it could storm. So, ~35 game seconds after you order HT creation, you have a storm-capable HT in your army. With KA, this came down to 5 seconds. For infestors or ghosts, you have to wait ~40 seconds for them to be produced, then another ~20 seconds for them to join your army. So even post-nerf, P can use front-loading to get their storms much faster than other races can get ghosts or infestors. If PG or MR (Has anyone ever used those acronyms before? Lol) were removed, then HT's with storm would come out three times faster than their counterparts if building orders were issued at the same time. If your reasoning regarding arrival times weren't horrifically flawed, you would have a point. However, reason out why Protoss domination of Terran and Zerg didn't materialize during the KA heyday, because as strong as Psy Storm is, getting it out "three times faster" would be the go-to Protoss strategy. Win rates just don't bear that out in any league, at any stage of the game pre- or post-release. Psy Storm could only be beelined to in Bronze, and whether people won with it is irrelevant since Bronze last existed pre-release. As MC said (Milkis tweeted, check it yourself) Protoss needs pre-tier-3 splash. Why cry about M&M and subsequent variations otherwise? As for front-loading via Warp Gate: troll on, brother! He's not trolling, it makes a lot of sense. I railed against the KA nerf as much as anyone, but he's right. Our caster spells came online much faster than the other races', and KA was probably broken as it stood. I guess I'd put a few things forward, regardless. Having HT's on the field before they can storm offers the opponent an opportunity to snipe/kill/otherwise disable them before they are useful. This is a weakness that doesn't apply to infestors or ghosts, as those units are "safe" during their build time. HTs are also very slow, and very fragile, making them easier to snipe. Additionally, EMP can, at any stage, reset the storm cooldown from 30-seconds to over a minute and a half. We have feedback, I know. The storm-feedback debate has claimed many lives already, so I don't really want to restart it, but I'd say that talking purely in terms of "total available spells X seconds after I ask for them," EMP comes out slightly on top. Finally, and this I think is the big one; in gateway+HT versus MMMG battles, the protoss army needs storms in order to beat the terran army. If both the ghosts and the templar emp/feedback each other into oblivion so it ends up gateway (even shielded gateway) vs. MMM, the terran army should win with equal upgrades. That's why I feel our casters need to be a little more accessible than the other races,' and why at the moment I feel they are in fact less accessible. I'm happy to be wrong, that's just how I feel.
It wasnt because it was too fast to get or that they couldnt be sniped before they were used pre KA patch, The problem was where you could lose a battle v terran late game and then just warp in a few Templar and you would then be able to rofl stomp the leftover terran army. There could have been other ways to deal with instant warpin storm late game but they chose this. Still not happy about that choice but what can you do.
Also they arent really scalling down fungal it does more damage v armoured thats probably why they ramped down the normal damage.
Other than the warp prism/hellion and ramp vision change I really hope none of these make it through.
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i really hope that immo/wprism harrass will be more viable now
and the mothership speed change OMG! i can't wait for the first big game where someone uses this to his advantage
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On September 01 2011 22:15 pRo9aMeR wrote:
i really hope that immo/wprism harrass will be more viable now
and the mothership speed change OMG! i can't wait for the first big game where someone uses this to his advantage
It's an acceleration buff, it's still going to be really slow.
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Any idea when the patch will be released?
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On September 01 2011 22:15 pRo9aMeR wrote:
i really hope that immo/wprism harrass will be more viable now
and the mothership speed change OMG! i can't wait for the first big game where someone uses this to his advantage
If the reason Motherships weren't being used in high-level games were their accelleration, Motherships would just be kept on circular patrol and microed like BW Mutas or Vultures to keep moving.
I would absolutely love to see the Mothership buffed into a usable state. The idea of a single unit that is so powerful that its arrival is totally game altering is pretty epic, if it can be balanced. But making it get to its top speed somewhat faster is not going to do it.
Me, I'd love to see the wormhole ability from Beta back. If I remember right, it let you teleport the Mothership anywhere you had an energy field? Combined with Mass Recall, a Warp Prism would have effectively unlimited capacity. Bwah hah hah.
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On September 01 2011 22:01 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 12:25 Belisarius wrote:On September 01 2011 12:04 Jomer wrote:On September 01 2011 11:13 imareaver3 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:On September 01 2011 10:54 imareaver3 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:50 ePBuckets wrote:
my question is why did K Amulet get removed when Pathogen Glands and the energy upgrade for ghosts are still in game?
Why are they scaling down the damage of fungal when the imbalanced part of it is the snare?
:S i like most of the changes though! i think PvP will finally get the diversity its been longing for. and i really like the sight change, though there are ways around it as tyler said.
we'll have to see how it plays out :/ Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... what's annoying to me as a protoss player is that every time protoss gets something that could even be called hard to deal with insofar as there isn't really obvious hard counter (i.e. warp in storms) it gets nerfed on the spot. but when terran gets long range, game changing emps and zerg gets fungal growth, the response is totally different: it's just the metagame, you need to micro better. it seems to me like protoss complaints are almost always met with 'yeah it's hard but you need to just outplay the other guy' whereas other races refuse to accept nerfs to the same sort of thing. for example, i know many terrans who think the infestor is fine but the ghost imbalanced and vice versa. this represents bias at its finest. if you were fine with KA, then you should support ghost and infestor nerfs, because they are FAR more effective than HT warp ins have ever been, and the vods prove it. Okay, firstly, infestors are getting nerfed. Secondly, there's the issue of front-loaded warpgates. Okay, let's say you began production of an HT and an infestor. The HT would complete in 5 seconds and remain in your army for the next ~30 game seconds before it could storm. So, ~35 game seconds after you order HT creation, you have a storm-capable HT in your army. With KA, this came down to 5 seconds. For infestors or ghosts, you have to wait ~40 seconds for them to be produced, then another ~20 seconds for them to join your army. So even post-nerf, P can use front-loading to get their storms much faster than other races can get ghosts or infestors. If PG or MR (Has anyone ever used those acronyms before? Lol) were removed, then HT's with storm would come out three times faster than their counterparts if building orders were issued at the same time. If your reasoning regarding arrival times weren't horrifically flawed, you would have a point. However, reason out why Protoss domination of Terran and Zerg didn't materialize during the KA heyday, because as strong as Psy Storm is, getting it out "three times faster" would be the go-to Protoss strategy. Win rates just don't bear that out in any league, at any stage of the game pre- or post-release. Psy Storm could only be beelined to in Bronze, and whether people won with it is irrelevant since Bronze last existed pre-release. As MC said (Milkis tweeted, check it yourself) Protoss needs pre-tier-3 splash. Why cry about M&M and subsequent variations otherwise? As for front-loading via Warp Gate: troll on, brother! He's not trolling, it makes a lot of sense. I railed against the KA nerf as much as anyone, but he's right. Our caster spells came online much faster than the other races', and KA was probably broken as it stood. I guess I'd put a few things forward, regardless. Having HT's on the field before they can storm offers the opponent an opportunity to snipe/kill/otherwise disable them before they are useful. This is a weakness that doesn't apply to infestors or ghosts, as those units are "safe" during their build time. HTs are also very slow, and very fragile, making them easier to snipe. Additionally, EMP can, at any stage, reset the storm cooldown from 30-seconds to over a minute and a half. We have feedback, I know. The storm-feedback debate has claimed many lives already, so I don't really want to restart it, but I'd say that talking purely in terms of "total available spells X seconds after I ask for them," EMP comes out slightly on top. Finally, and this I think is the big one; in gateway+HT versus MMMG battles, the protoss army needs storms in order to beat the terran army. If both the ghosts and the templar emp/feedback each other into oblivion so it ends up gateway (even shielded gateway) vs. MMM, the terran army should win with equal upgrades. That's why I feel our casters need to be a little more accessible than the other races,' and why at the moment I feel they are in fact less accessible. I'm happy to be wrong, that's just how I feel. It wasnt because it was too fast to get or that they couldnt be sniped before they were used pre KA patch, The problem was where you could lose a battle v terran late game and then just warp in a few Templar and you would then be able to rofl stomp the leftover terran army. There could have been other ways to deal with instant warpin storm late game but they chose this. Still not happy about that choice but what can you do. Also they arent really scalling down fungal it does more damage v armoured thats probably why they ramped down the normal damage. Other than the warp prism/hellion and ramp vision change I really hope none of these make it through.
I really wish the had kept the KA but put a cool down on after warp they warped it. It just makes reloading with HTs that much worse compared to ghost/infestors.
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On September 01 2011 22:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 22:01 Vimsey wrote:On September 01 2011 12:25 Belisarius wrote:On September 01 2011 12:04 Jomer wrote:On September 01 2011 11:13 imareaver3 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:57 Shiori wrote:On September 01 2011 10:54 imareaver3 wrote:On September 01 2011 10:50 ePBuckets wrote:
my question is why did K Amulet get removed when Pathogen Glands and the energy upgrade for ghosts are still in game?
Why are they scaling down the damage of fungal when the imbalanced part of it is the snare?
:S i like most of the changes though! i think PvP will finally get the diversity its been longing for. and i really like the sight change, though there are ways around it as tyler said.
we'll have to see how it plays out :/ Because you can warp in HT's practically anywhere, whereas ghosts and infestors have to be built at your own base? It isn't that hard to figure out... what's annoying to me as a protoss player is that every time protoss gets something that could even be called hard to deal with insofar as there isn't really obvious hard counter (i.e. warp in storms) it gets nerfed on the spot. but when terran gets long range, game changing emps and zerg gets fungal growth, the response is totally different: it's just the metagame, you need to micro better. it seems to me like protoss complaints are almost always met with 'yeah it's hard but you need to just outplay the other guy' whereas other races refuse to accept nerfs to the same sort of thing. for example, i know many terrans who think the infestor is fine but the ghost imbalanced and vice versa. this represents bias at its finest. if you were fine with KA, then you should support ghost and infestor nerfs, because they are FAR more effective than HT warp ins have ever been, and the vods prove it. Okay, firstly, infestors are getting nerfed. Secondly, there's the issue of front-loaded warpgates. Okay, let's say you began production of an HT and an infestor. The HT would complete in 5 seconds and remain in your army for the next ~30 game seconds before it could storm. So, ~35 game seconds after you order HT creation, you have a storm-capable HT in your army. With KA, this came down to 5 seconds. For infestors or ghosts, you have to wait ~40 seconds for them to be produced, then another ~20 seconds for them to join your army. So even post-nerf, P can use front-loading to get their storms much faster than other races can get ghosts or infestors. If PG or MR (Has anyone ever used those acronyms before? Lol) were removed, then HT's with storm would come out three times faster than their counterparts if building orders were issued at the same time. If your reasoning regarding arrival times weren't horrifically flawed, you would have a point. However, reason out why Protoss domination of Terran and Zerg didn't materialize during the KA heyday, because as strong as Psy Storm is, getting it out "three times faster" would be the go-to Protoss strategy. Win rates just don't bear that out in any league, at any stage of the game pre- or post-release. Psy Storm could only be beelined to in Bronze, and whether people won with it is irrelevant since Bronze last existed pre-release. As MC said (Milkis tweeted, check it yourself) Protoss needs pre-tier-3 splash. Why cry about M&M and subsequent variations otherwise? As for front-loading via Warp Gate: troll on, brother! He's not trolling, it makes a lot of sense. I railed against the KA nerf as much as anyone, but he's right. Our caster spells came online much faster than the other races', and KA was probably broken as it stood. I guess I'd put a few things forward, regardless. Having HT's on the field before they can storm offers the opponent an opportunity to snipe/kill/otherwise disable them before they are useful. This is a weakness that doesn't apply to infestors or ghosts, as those units are "safe" during their build time. HTs are also very slow, and very fragile, making them easier to snipe. Additionally, EMP can, at any stage, reset the storm cooldown from 30-seconds to over a minute and a half. We have feedback, I know. The storm-feedback debate has claimed many lives already, so I don't really want to restart it, but I'd say that talking purely in terms of "total available spells X seconds after I ask for them," EMP comes out slightly on top. Finally, and this I think is the big one; in gateway+HT versus MMMG battles, the protoss army needs storms in order to beat the terran army. If both the ghosts and the templar emp/feedback each other into oblivion so it ends up gateway (even shielded gateway) vs. MMM, the terran army should win with equal upgrades. That's why I feel our casters need to be a little more accessible than the other races,' and why at the moment I feel they are in fact less accessible. I'm happy to be wrong, that's just how I feel. It wasnt because it was too fast to get or that they couldnt be sniped before they were used pre KA patch, The problem was where you could lose a battle v terran late game and then just warp in a few Templar and you would then be able to rofl stomp the leftover terran army. There could have been other ways to deal with instant warpin storm late game but they chose this. Still not happy about that choice but what can you do. Also they arent really scalling down fungal it does more damage v armoured thats probably why they ramped down the normal damage. Other than the warp prism/hellion and ramp vision change I really hope none of these make it through. I really wish the had kept the KA but put a cool down on after warp they warped it. It just makes reloading with HTs that much worse compared to ghost/infestors.
I really do think removal of KA justifies removing energy upgrade for ghost/infestors
why do people assume its like protoss can magically warp in templars whenever they want? there still IS a cooldown for warpgate. there is literally no difference in that sense. the time used to warp in these templars are the same time as when infestors/ghost are arriving to their armies
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You all really do not know how weak marines are right?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 01 2011 23:01 ElvisTek wrote:
You all really do not know how weak marines are right?
You really don't know how to read, do you?
I wonder how the time increase for blink will change PvP.
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EPT
