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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 01 2011 04:23 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 04:13 hashaki wrote:On September 01 2011 03:55 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 03:07 freetgy wrote:On September 01 2011 02:50 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 02:33 ToastieNL wrote:
Spawning Pool / Gateway are 65 seconds, you might look at it that way..? That is a very bad way to look at it. For instance: Marine takes 25 seconds to build, meanwhile chrono boosted zealot takes 19 seconds, so defending proxy gate/in base gate builds will be even harder. chronoboosted zealots prior to warp gate don't take 19s but 28s to build so your argument fails a little. Sorry, my bad. But that doesn't change the main idea. On September 01 2011 03:17 ZaaaaaM wrote:On September 01 2011 02:31 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 01:39 CeriseCherries wrote:
-.- You can pretty much tell what race someone is by their comments... I honestly think all the changes make lot of sense -.- Well, some of them really makes sense, others does not... For instance, Immortal range buff, HSM/Mothership buff makes a lot of sense, but Ultra build time and half-damage-same-cost Infernal Pre-Igniter changes are questionable... Also, I'm not so sure about 65 seconds Barracks build time, but it doesn't seems so serious like other two. You're terran. Haha, thats hilarious. I'm already sick of explaining why Infernal-Preigniter's cost shouldn't be freaking 150/150 if the damage is lowered by half, but when somebody replies with such a stupid comment I don't think it is worth it anymore. So what? Does that mean HT should've been lowered to 25/75 in cost when Amulet was removed? Ofcourse not. (ok, bad example but you see what I'm getting at) When something is nerfed/removed it's because it's either creating an imbalance in some way or too strong. That does not mean costs related to the unit or the upgrade should change with it. And to be fair, his comment about you being a terran was funny, because only Terrans can fail to see how riddiculously OP BFH as a unit is. They're superfast, have AOE, rape light units with a powerdrill and only cost minerals. This is insane. This is batshit insane. And fact of the matter is, the unit will be very much the same if the change goes through, just this time around they bring a screwdriver to rape light units. No more powerdrills.
The reward for going BFH can be gamechanging, and if it doesn't work out, it's not that much lost. For a Protoss to for instance go Archon/sentry/HT-drop the cost is huge compared to running a few BFH around the map in hope of finding an undefended base.
Personally I don't think the nerf of BF-upgrade will change all that much. We'll still see lots of BFH be used, and they'll still rape minerallines (becasue running your workers away is like making them an easier target, so you gotta sort of hope they stay alive untill you get some units over there). If you ask me changing the cost of Hellions to 100/50 would make alot more sense than nerfing BF-upgrade, but that's just my take on the situation. Riiiight. I was actually going to argue you, until I read that fucking bullshit. You don't know how to deal with hellions, and how committing is to get BFH at early game (In TvP, you will die to almost every single rush by going for them and in TvZ you MUST kill a shit ton of drones not to be behind). Mid game run-bys are another story, but that can still be prevented. 100/50, so you literally want another "reaper". The unit which was OP and got nerfed into oblivion.
.........................................
You should really watch some GSL games where Terrans basically blindly go BFH against any Zerg and just essentially continuously pump BFH until they have a nice mass of bio or tanks.
Old BFH were essentially guaranteed to do some damage be it drone kills or zergling kills or simply just containing the zerg. The reason why BFH is so damn strong is because they only cost minerals. For Terran, minerals are practically an infinite resource that they don't really have to manage because of MULEs. This is why marines are so damn good as well. Terran can just mass marines and/or BFH and if that shit dies the hit to them isn't as crippling as say Zerg losing a bunch of lings or Protoss losing a bunch of zealots; again, due to MULEs.
Those two units incredible power also allows the Terran to basically do w/e the fuck they want for a window of time while they mass up gas-heavy units like tanks. That window is essentially as long as it takes for Zerg/Protoss to get AoE, at which point marines/BFH become much weaker.
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How COMMITING BFH is at the beginning...?Seriously?Is it the 150 gas or the 550 minerals in total for 4 BFH?
Seriously.Compare it with other earlygame upgrades from other races, compare the damage that is being dealt, and tell us what the outcome is.
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On September 01 2011 03:55 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:07 freetgy wrote:On September 01 2011 02:50 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 02:33 ToastieNL wrote:
Spawning Pool / Gateway are 65 seconds, you might look at it that way..? That is a very bad way to look at it. For instance: Marine takes 25 seconds to build, meanwhile chrono boosted zealot takes 19 seconds, so defending proxy gate/in base gate builds will be even harder. chronoboosted zealots prior to warp gate don't take 19s but 28s to build so your argument fails a little. Sorry, my bad. But that doesn't change the main idea. Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:17 ZaaaaaM wrote:On September 01 2011 02:31 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 01:39 CeriseCherries wrote:
-.- You can pretty much tell what race someone is by their comments... I honestly think all the changes make lot of sense -.- Well, some of them really makes sense, others does not... For instance, Immortal range buff, HSM/Mothership buff makes a lot of sense, but Ultra build time and half-damage-same-cost Infernal Pre-Igniter changes are questionable... Also, I'm not so sure about 65 seconds Barracks build time, but it doesn't seems so serious like other two. You're terran. Haha, thats hilarious. And you are a zerg, so fucking what lol ?... I'm already sick of explaining why Infernal-Preigniter's cost shouldn't be freaking 150/150 if the damage is lowered by half, but when somebody replies with such a stupid comment I don't think it is worth it anymore.
Ohhh, maybe storm research should only cost 100/100, instead of the current 200/200, since there is no KA anymore, and HTs are only half as good...
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On September 01 2011 04:36 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:55 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 03:07 freetgy wrote:On September 01 2011 02:50 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 02:33 ToastieNL wrote:
Spawning Pool / Gateway are 65 seconds, you might look at it that way..? That is a very bad way to look at it. For instance: Marine takes 25 seconds to build, meanwhile chrono boosted zealot takes 19 seconds, so defending proxy gate/in base gate builds will be even harder. chronoboosted zealots prior to warp gate don't take 19s but 28s to build so your argument fails a little. Sorry, my bad. But that doesn't change the main idea. On September 01 2011 03:17 ZaaaaaM wrote:On September 01 2011 02:31 Huragius wrote:On September 01 2011 01:39 CeriseCherries wrote:
-.- You can pretty much tell what race someone is by their comments... I honestly think all the changes make lot of sense -.- Well, some of them really makes sense, others does not... For instance, Immortal range buff, HSM/Mothership buff makes a lot of sense, but Ultra build time and half-damage-same-cost Infernal Pre-Igniter changes are questionable... Also, I'm not so sure about 65 seconds Barracks build time, but it doesn't seems so serious like other two. You're terran. Haha, thats hilarious. And you are a zerg, so fucking what lol ?... I'm already sick of explaining why Infernal-Preigniter's cost shouldn't be freaking 150/150 if the damage is lowered by half, but when somebody replies with such a stupid comment I don't think it is worth it anymore. Ohhh, maybe storm research should only cost 100/100, instead of the current 200/200, since there is no KA anymore, and HTs are only half as good...
Honestly that's not a bad idea, especially since you really need HT to deal with infestors.
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Am I the only Zerg that keeps building ultras thinking the patch is live already and then proceeds to get overrun by whoever I am playing...? Why they have a PTR at all makes no sense to me tbh, changes take time to be realized.
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On September 01 2011 04:56 justinpal wrote:
Am I the only Zerg that keeps building ultras thinking the patch is live already and then proceeds to get overrun by whoever I am playing...? Why they have a PTR at all makes no sense to me tbh, changes take time to be realized.
Because they want people to test whether or not the changes that they make have the intended effect. They did at one point put that Fungal Growth no longer effects air units into the patch notes, I'm not sure if it even make it into the PTR, though.
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On August 31 2011 19:42 Anadox wrote:Overall a good patch: -Blueflame nerf: was expected and in my opinion a good decision, even though i think it is too expensive now. 150/150 for +5 damage against light seems too expensive. -Infestor nerf: I waited for this for a while  feels like a good change. -Barracks nerf: Can't really understand why they change this... I'm looking forward to seeker missile-play. IMO it's a good ability, maybe the raven will be used more now (harassing, maybe)?
maybe because a terran can two rax, bring 4 scvs and build 3 bunkers at your ramp 
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"Only allow friends to send me chat messages."
Wait. What? How will you get new friends if *only* friends can send you chat messages? I mean, other than your real life friends, ldo.
But if you're trying to talk to a player that you just played to try get a new PP, they won't receive your messages unless they're already friends with you...WHICH THEY CAN'T BE UNLESS YOU TALK TO THEM FIRST.
How is that supposed to work?
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On September 01 2011 02:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see. Forcefield 'removes' micro. You could say colossi replacing reavers removed micro. You could also say in BW, that stasis, lockdown, and maybe even ensnare removed micro. And it would much more fair if a t1 caster that 'removed micro' was removed before the most expensive caster in the game, that's t2, that's the only useful unit Z has in ZvP. But I guess 'shits funny" Yes, infestors are strong. That should be expected of a unit that costs more than any other caster in the game (2 infestors = 1 BC + 100 minerals), takes longer to get out, is more vulnerable, is larger, is smart-targetted by AI units automatically. But if you can't capitalize on a Zerg going for infestors, much like a P getting HT before colossi or T getting ghosts before medivacs, and is only using lings (or P using zealots only) to stay alive in the meantime, or are not expanding, then the issue isn't an OP one. Also, even base Viking/SiegeTank (not even including ghosts, by the way) is way more cost efficient than BL/Infestor. Infestors are 2 shotted by siege tanks, and both infestors and BL are a helluva lot more expensive than siege tanks and vikings. I have never, ever seen BL/Infestor win a game for Zerg when they were on even bases with Terran, on the pro level. Because it won't. However, if Zerg has already owned the Terran and he's pretty much being BM and still in the game, even when Zerg has 2+ bases, then yea, BL/Infestor is a nice way to kill a turtling Terran who has a single fucking PF at the choke. Show nested quote + a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement. So... is larva inject really what's OP, or are infestors OP? Are you making a rational balance claim, or just venting about how much you hate Zerg? Maybe you should try getting to Masters, or at least Diamond, with Zerg, and then see how 'op' they are. I'm not trying to say Zerg is UP here, what I'm saying is that it sounds like you are just venting. First off, you realize to resupply, Zerg has to bank a lot of money right? So assuming that Zerg doesn't just have super shitty macro, and the other player has just as shitty macro and therefore is challenged by this shitty Zerg player, this Zerg player somehow had to get an overwhelming macro about 2 minutes before this big engagement occurs. Meaning 1 of 2 things happened: 1. Zerg got a huge lead somehow already, either by a ling runby, awesome baneling drop harass, catching 6 colossi for free rallied somewhere, snuck in burrow roaches, or just had much more superior macro, etc. 2. Zerg took a huge gamble by expanding when he shouldn't have, and Protoss simply didn't just go kill the expo or the Zerg's main during his time of weakness. But Protoss was either bad, or was doing a similiarly vulnerable gamble (like teching to mothership) and it didn't pay off. Because otherwise, there is no way Zerg is going to be banking over 2k gas to resupply like that. Also, Ultralisks resupply in 70+ seconds... more than a fucking minute. Broodlords also take quite a long time. So what exactly is Zerg just going to remax on and win with, unless they rolled your army completely? And what does that have to do with harass? Because Zerg can remax, you can't use dropships or DTs? Like... what? We see plenty of T drop Zerg during big battles. Resupply and infestors have nothing to do with drops or harass, and the latter is actually very vulnerable to it. And how do infestors 'nullify' any engagement? Unlike HT or ghosts, Zerg has no anti-caster, so where ghosts can get FB'd and then healed, or HT can turn into archons, the low HP and huge target infestor, is either 1 shotted by FB or made completely useless after being EMP'd. That would be like if EMP made it so HT can't turn into archons, or FB prevented ghosts from shooting... and killed them, and prevented medivac heal. FG also has to chain casted. So while you may think they are just awesome, all powerful units that slightly justify their 100/150 50s cost, the fact of the matter is that in a big engagement, against an opponent who has just 4-5 Ghosts/HT, we lose all 20 of them in 4 seconds to 4 units, just to do ~40 damage DOT to your army. Pretty fucking shitty if you ask me. And don't tell me "you can just FG casters omg". It's the same range. To cast a spell that has to be chain casted or else is useless. For a unit that dies extremely quickly. And splitting very easily takes care of FG denial on casters.
lol, I can't believe you had the balls to mention 'ensnare.' lol, that spell is wretched. Queens are worthless in BW.
You know, it would be kinda cool to have the queen be able to morph into an air unit.
Wait, that's stupid
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On September 01 2011 05:15 ensign_lee wrote:
"Only allow friends to send me chat messages."
Wait. What? How will you get new friends if *only* friends can send you chat messages? I mean, other than your real life friends, ldo.
But if you're trying to talk to a player that you just played to try get a new PP, they won't receive your messages unless they're already friends with you...WHICH THEY CAN'T BE UNLESS YOU TALK TO THEM FIRST.
How is that supposed to work?
Just don't check that option if you are interested in talking to people. If you msg someone with it up they probably aren't interested in talking to you /shrug. It's a matter of choice for each person.
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lol, I can't believe you had the balls to mention 'ensnare.' lol, that spell is wretched. Queens are worthless in BW.
You have never heard of Neo.G_SoulKey, Have you?
Or maybe you are just not as good at BW as you think you are, Queens are amazing in BW.
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On September 01 2011 05:15 ensign_lee wrote:
"Only allow friends to send me chat messages."
Wait. What? How will you get new friends if *only* friends can send you chat messages? I mean, other than your real life friends, ldo.
But if you're trying to talk to a player that you just played to try get a new PP, they won't receive your messages unless they're already friends with you...WHICH THEY CAN'T BE UNLESS YOU TALK TO THEM FIRST.
How is that supposed to work?
Its a setting you can turn on in the options.
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On September 01 2011 05:18 canSore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 02:07 Belial88 wrote:Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see. Forcefield 'removes' micro. You could say colossi replacing reavers removed micro. You could also say in BW, that stasis, lockdown, and maybe even ensnare removed micro. And it would much more fair if a t1 caster that 'removed micro' was removed before the most expensive caster in the game, that's t2, that's the only useful unit Z has in ZvP. But I guess 'shits funny" Yes, infestors are strong. That should be expected of a unit that costs more than any other caster in the game (2 infestors = 1 BC + 100 minerals), takes longer to get out, is more vulnerable, is larger, is smart-targetted by AI units automatically. But if you can't capitalize on a Zerg going for infestors, much like a P getting HT before colossi or T getting ghosts before medivacs, and is only using lings (or P using zealots only) to stay alive in the meantime, or are not expanding, then the issue isn't an OP one. Also, even base Viking/SiegeTank (not even including ghosts, by the way) is way more cost efficient than BL/Infestor. Infestors are 2 shotted by siege tanks, and both infestors and BL are a helluva lot more expensive than siege tanks and vikings. I have never, ever seen BL/Infestor win a game for Zerg when they were on even bases with Terran, on the pro level. Because it won't. However, if Zerg has already owned the Terran and he's pretty much being BM and still in the game, even when Zerg has 2+ bases, then yea, BL/Infestor is a nice way to kill a turtling Terran who has a single fucking PF at the choke. a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement. So... is larva inject really what's OP, or are infestors OP? Are you making a rational balance claim, or just venting about how much you hate Zerg? Maybe you should try getting to Masters, or at least Diamond, with Zerg, and then see how 'op' they are. I'm not trying to say Zerg is UP here, what I'm saying is that it sounds like you are just venting. First off, you realize to resupply, Zerg has to bank a lot of money right? So assuming that Zerg doesn't just have super shitty macro, and the other player has just as shitty macro and therefore is challenged by this shitty Zerg player, this Zerg player somehow had to get an overwhelming macro about 2 minutes before this big engagement occurs. Meaning 1 of 2 things happened: 1. Zerg got a huge lead somehow already, either by a ling runby, awesome baneling drop harass, catching 6 colossi for free rallied somewhere, snuck in burrow roaches, or just had much more superior macro, etc. 2. Zerg took a huge gamble by expanding when he shouldn't have, and Protoss simply didn't just go kill the expo or the Zerg's main during his time of weakness. But Protoss was either bad, or was doing a similiarly vulnerable gamble (like teching to mothership) and it didn't pay off. Because otherwise, there is no way Zerg is going to be banking over 2k gas to resupply like that. Also, Ultralisks resupply in 70+ seconds... more than a fucking minute. Broodlords also take quite a long time. So what exactly is Zerg just going to remax on and win with, unless they rolled your army completely? And what does that have to do with harass? Because Zerg can remax, you can't use dropships or DTs? Like... what? We see plenty of T drop Zerg during big battles. Resupply and infestors have nothing to do with drops or harass, and the latter is actually very vulnerable to it. And how do infestors 'nullify' any engagement? Unlike HT or ghosts, Zerg has no anti-caster, so where ghosts can get FB'd and then healed, or HT can turn into archons, the low HP and huge target infestor, is either 1 shotted by FB or made completely useless after being EMP'd. That would be like if EMP made it so HT can't turn into archons, or FB prevented ghosts from shooting... and killed them, and prevented medivac heal. FG also has to chain casted. So while you may think they are just awesome, all powerful units that slightly justify their 100/150 50s cost, the fact of the matter is that in a big engagement, against an opponent who has just 4-5 Ghosts/HT, we lose all 20 of them in 4 seconds to 4 units, just to do ~40 damage DOT to your army. Pretty fucking shitty if you ask me. And don't tell me "you can just FG casters omg". It's the same range. To cast a spell that has to be chain casted or else is useless. For a unit that dies extremely quickly. And splitting very easily takes care of FG denial on casters. lol, I can't believe you had the balls to mention 'ensnare.' lol, that spell is wretched. Queens are worthless in BW. You know, it would be kinda cool to have the queen be able to morph into an air unit. Wait, that's stupid
You are stupid for thinking Queens are worthless. Only reason they aren't used much is because of the APM required to use them effectively in sync with defilers.
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yeah, I'd love the BW queen, hell I'd prefer a flying infestor that can snare your units and turn your mech into broodlings!
If the infestor was split into two units such as the BW queen and Defiler I'd be a happy man.
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Speaking of BW, I'd love scourges back.... I'd realllllly love to experiment with scourge+baneling compositions for the fun of it ;o
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I wonder if we will see +2 weapons rather than blue flame? TLO did that back in the day and I just remembered.
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3 BFH hellions to one shot a worker on PTR.
3 normal hellions to one shot a worker on PTR.
LOL
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2011 08:05 Trusty wrote:
3 BFH hellions to one shot an entire mineral line of workers on PTR.
3 normal hellions to one shot an entire mineral line of worker on PTR.
LOL
FIXED BRAH
User was warned for this post
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EPT
