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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game. a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see.
Well first of all, 9 out of 10 times Mutalisks are not a good alternative tech choice against Protoss, Blink Stalkers just tear them apart, Zerg need *something* in the midgame to help them out.
Like seriously, what other tech choice do we have when we get into Lair tech? You can't just sit there going Roach/Ling all game, Corruptors are a joke, Hydras are an embarrassment and Mutas only really work in a couple scenarios. So what would you have Zerg do? Just roll over and die? Nothx
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I feel like that the Ultras will be the most used unit now
Just like Infestors they were nothing and now they are everything!
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-.- You can pretty much tell what race someone is by their comments... I honestly think all the changes make lot of sense -.-
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Saying it takes the same amount of fungles to kill the units is completely missing the point. The rate in which the units die is going to become noticably slower. Just go on the PTR and look... grab your terran buddy and run some tests on marine/medivac. The change took infestors from feeling slightly OP to feeling just right. I havent tested with protoss units yet, but the fact is, the damage comes less quickly so your units will be that much stronger... will get off a couple more shots... will utilize their armor upgrades for a slightly longer period of time.
They still die in 4+4 seconds (2 fungals). I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm saying that marines dying 1/2 a second slower isn't going to really change much, and I'm pretty sure FG on marines wasn't an issue Blizzard was trying to address.
Also, armor and armor upgrades are not a factor against spells (EMP, storm, FG, SM, transfuse, etc). So I think you are just saying things without really knowing what you are talking about :O
Infestors/FG will always rape marines, it always has. Excuse me for being a bit presumptuous, but I don't think Blizz is going to nerf the FG/Marine issue, as FG is supposed to rape marines. Just like HT rape marines, except HT are much cheaper, can turn into archons, and don't get 2 shotted by siege tanks, and unlike banelings, they are 'smart-targeted' by siege tank AI (meaning even if you send in lings first, siege tanks fire upon infestors as priority).
why don't you consider the medivac healing ? Please why ?
Because a marine will survive FG if they are being healed by a medivac as it is. So if you have a gorup of 8 marines with 8 medivacs, none of them will die (unless you kill off the medivacs) - this is true now, and will be true after the patch. This change won't affect marines or medivacs at all. This isn't even the biggest nerf to damage, so you won't even have something like a medivac healing a marine and then another one - which can't happen anyways, since FG is a DOT, and that single marine will always be damaged throughout the duration of the spell. Even if FG did 4 dmg over 4 seconds, a medivac will only heal on that one marine until the DOT wears off.
That's why I dont' think medivacs are an issue.
i think infestors need more nerf... simply every time i play agenst em its they pop out like 6 ,7.. and more infestors who spaming FG all time... remove energy up it will be fair i think and also it will remove spaming infestors (6 and more) all the time...
look at HTs spaming Hts is stoped by removing energy up from em... (spaming TS)
before when you get HTs you spam TS (ower minerall lines ) ower army as toss u build HTs and that is it there is no reason whay not spam HTs...
also now its hepening with INFESTORS.... i think remove energy up would help...(to not spam inf like crazy)
You realize that the only reason Khaydarin amulet was removed was because of Warp gate tech right? If Zerg can instantly spawn infestors - you know, instead of spawning as the longest research casters in the game - then their energy upgrade would be removed, as would ghosts.... or medivacs, or battlecruisers, or ravens, or any other unit that uses energy.
You are also aware that it is the most expensive caster in the game as well, right? 2 of them cost the same gas, and 100 less minerals, than a friggin battlecruiser. You can just 'counter' infestors with BC's very, very cost efficiently you know.
If Zerg is popping 7 infestors immediately, that means they foregone 6x7=42 roaches. It means they spent all their gas on infestors, meaning they have only zerglings, and only 2 base lings. If you are losing to pure zerglings, or can't capitilize on the fact that the opponent is only making a specific unit - the weakest in the game - then maybe the issue isn't an OP one, but your play. Try expanding, or being super aggressive against infestors. You can also just simply make the counter - ghosts or HT - and just roll the opponent when all they have is useless, no energy casters and a bunch of lings to get fried.
But you tell me how easy a Protoss is, who you just happen to leave alone, and who you don't expand against when recognizing they are teching hard, and then suddenly has 7 HT with full energy. I'm sure it's extremely easy to handle without ghosts/HT... because, you know, they aren't OP like infestors.
Zerg make infestors because they have no option at the moment. Hydras are too gas heavy, meaning your upgrades and hive will be very late, are useless as soon as 2 colossi/ht arrive (or bio, or siege tanks), mass roaches get stomped by robotech and are extremely supply ineffficient against supply efficient P. Mutas are better in ZvT (thats why, in say, Nesteas, or Darkforce vs Alive, the game was already completely won by Zerg with ling/muta before infestors popped out), but in ZvP mutas aren't good at all, both against stalker/colossi and against the increasingly popular HT play.
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what's the problem with blizzard slightly reverting the fungal buff?
are they supposed to buff the rest of the entire game every time they make a spell slightly overpowered?
it does 6 less damage anyway... hardly noticable. i think the point was to make the bonus damage more consistent with the rest of the game rather than increase by a percentage.
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On September 01 2011 01:31 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game. a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see. Well first of all, 9 out of 10 times Mutalisks are not a good alternative tech choice against Protoss, Blink Stalkers just tear them apart, Zerg need *something* in the midgame to help them out. Like seriously, what other tech choice do we have when we get into Lair tech? You can't just sit there going Roach/Ling all game, Corruptors are a joke, Hydras are an embarrassment and Mutas only really work in a couple scenarios. So what would you have Zerg do? Just roll over and die? Nothx
is that a reason for a unit that is totally wrecking a matchup? atleast give it a nerf so its not unbeatable. or 20 times harder to defeat then to do. also Bling drops/roach ect worked out Perfectly fine in the past, so did Sevral roach builds, u seem to forget that Zerg's were still winning before the Infestor buff, eventho idra the overmind of whining says they dont, they had what? 2x GSL victories, and sevral High placements in all Tournaments, aswell as winning IPL. Protoss liturally hasnt won a single thing sience the buff, Mayb 1 tournament that MC placed 2nd in because only Foreigners were attending. other then that, its totally dead. u rarely even see protoss in top 4-5 atm, whilst u see Zerg/terran's in attendance evrywhere.
AND Both Zerg's/Protosses in korea consistently say that ZVP is unbeatable atm. ur argument for evrything is invalid, i never said "REMOVE THE UNIT" i said it needs a nerf. if not a huge one, Who says they will be useless when they do get nerfed? but ruining a whole matchup because of 1 unit is just stupid. there were atleast some balance in the past. now theres liturally nothing. -.-
edit: also Infestors isnt only used in Middgame, its used late LATE game, where a zerg is actully capable of Tradeing armys eventho Protoss army has a x2 if not x3 amount invested then the zerg. and zerg can resupply faster.
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On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement.
Toss can in 5s, with a single warp prism, and it doesn't even take much apm (compared to continuous injects while fights are occuring). All the changes are quite good, and Blizz is definitly going in the right way with this patch.
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On September 01 2011 01:51 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement. Toss can in 5s, with a single warp prism, and it doesn't even take much apm (compared to continuous injects while fights are occuring). All the changes are quite good, and Blizz is definitly going in the right way with this patch.
Not even going to comment. not worth my time
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On September 01 2011 01:48 GLLvz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 01:31 BeeNu wrote:On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game. a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see. Well first of all, 9 out of 10 times Mutalisks are not a good alternative tech choice against Protoss, Blink Stalkers just tear them apart, Zerg need *something* in the midgame to help them out. Like seriously, what other tech choice do we have when we get into Lair tech? You can't just sit there going Roach/Ling all game, Corruptors are a joke, Hydras are an embarrassment and Mutas only really work in a couple scenarios. So what would you have Zerg do? Just roll over and die? Nothx is that a reason for a unit that is totally wrecking a matchup? atleast give it a nerf so its not unbeatable. or 20 times harder to defeat then to do. also Bling drops/roach ect worked out Perfectly fine in the past, so did Sevral roach builds, u seem to forget that Zerg's were still winning before the Infestor buff, eventho idra the overmind of whining says they dont, they had what? 2x GSL victories, and sevral High placements in all Tournaments, aswell as winning IPL. Protoss liturally hasnt won a single thing sience the buff, Mayb 1 tournament that MC placed 2nd in because only Foreigners were attending. other then that, its totally dead. u rarely even see protoss in top 4-5 atm, whilst u see Zerg/terran's in attendance evrywhere. AND Both Zerg's/Protosses in korea consistently say that ZVP is unbeatable atm. ur argument for evrything is invalid, i never said "REMOVE THE UNIT" i said it needs a nerf. if not a huge one, Who says they will be useless when they do get nerfed? but ruining a whole matchup because of 1 unit is just stupid. there were atleast some balance in the past. now theres liturally nothing. -.- edit: also Infestors isnt only used in Middgame, its used late LATE game, where a zerg is actully capable of Tradeing armys eventho Protoss army has a x2 if not x3 amount invested then the zerg. and zerg can resupply faster.
Infestors hardly ruin the entire matchup. Plenty of Terran and Protoss are capable of dealing with Infestors. As for Baneling drops, sure they are strong but a large part of making that work is using Fungal to ensure you actually hit something, otherwise Blink stalkers will still never be touched. Your argument that Zerg is fine is that Nestea wins tournaments? Lol, no, Nestea wins tournaments because he's an amazing player that makes things happen, that's all there is to it.
You say Koreans constantly say Infestors OP? Funny, I've heard the exact opposite from a lot of progamers as well.
Also, I'm sorry Protoss is in a slump right now, maybe they need to work on new tactics, it's a real shame 90% of Protoss never had to do anything but build a giant death ball up till now.
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On September 01 2011 01:51 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement. Toss can in 5s, with a single warp prism, and it doesn't even take much apm (compared to continuous injects while fights are occuring). All the changes are quite good, and Blizz is definitly going in the right way with this patch.
you do know that a good protoss will chrono their gateway while a battle is going on in order to get to the next cycle of warp-ins faster right?
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Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see.
Forcefield 'removes' micro. You could say colossi replacing reavers removed micro. You could also say in BW, that stasis, lockdown, and maybe even ensnare removed micro.
And it would much more fair if a t1 caster that 'removed micro' was removed before the most expensive caster in the game, that's t2, that's the only useful unit Z has in ZvP. But I guess 'shits funny"
Yes, infestors are strong. That should be expected of a unit that costs more than any other caster in the game (2 infestors = 1 BC + 100 minerals), takes longer to get out, is more vulnerable, is larger, is smart-targetted by AI units automatically. But if you can't capitalize on a Zerg going for infestors, much like a P getting HT before colossi or T getting ghosts before medivacs, and is only using lings (or P using zealots only) to stay alive in the meantime, or are not expanding, then the issue isn't an OP one.
Also, even base Viking/SiegeTank (not even including ghosts, by the way) is way more cost efficient than BL/Infestor. Infestors are 2 shotted by siege tanks, and both infestors and BL are a helluva lot more expensive than siege tanks and vikings. I have never, ever seen BL/Infestor win a game for Zerg when they were on even bases with Terran, on the pro level. Because it won't. However, if Zerg has already owned the Terran and he's pretty much being BM and still in the game, even when Zerg has 2+ bases, then yea, BL/Infestor is a nice way to kill a turtling Terran who has a single fucking PF at the choke.
a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement.
So... is larva inject really what's OP, or are infestors OP? Are you making a rational balance claim, or just venting about how much you hate Zerg? Maybe you should try getting to Masters, or at least Diamond, with Zerg, and then see how 'op' they are. I'm not trying to say Zerg is UP here, what I'm saying is that it sounds like you are just venting.
First off, you realize to resupply, Zerg has to bank a lot of money right? So assuming that Zerg doesn't just have super shitty macro, and the other player has just as shitty macro and therefore is challenged by this shitty Zerg player, this Zerg player somehow had to get an overwhelming macro about 2 minutes before this big engagement occurs. Meaning 1 of 2 things happened:
1. Zerg got a huge lead somehow already, either by a ling runby, awesome baneling drop harass, catching 6 colossi for free rallied somewhere, snuck in burrow roaches, or just had much more superior macro, etc.
2. Zerg took a huge gamble by expanding when he shouldn't have, and Protoss simply didn't just go kill the expo or the Zerg's main during his time of weakness. But Protoss was either bad, or was doing a similiarly vulnerable gamble (like teching to mothership) and it didn't pay off.
Because otherwise, there is no way Zerg is going to be banking over 2k gas to resupply like that.
Also, Ultralisks resupply in 70+ seconds... more than a fucking minute. Broodlords also take quite a long time. So what exactly is Zerg just going to remax on and win with, unless they rolled your army completely?
And what does that have to do with harass? Because Zerg can remax, you can't use dropships or DTs? Like... what? We see plenty of T drop Zerg during big battles. Resupply and infestors have nothing to do with drops or harass, and the latter is actually very vulnerable to it.
And how do infestors 'nullify' any engagement? Unlike HT or ghosts, Zerg has no anti-caster, so where ghosts can get FB'd and then healed, or HT can turn into archons, the low HP and huge target infestor, is either 1 shotted by FB or made completely useless after being EMP'd. That would be like if EMP made it so HT can't turn into archons, or FB prevented ghosts from shooting... and killed them, and prevented medivac heal. FG also has to chain casted. So while you may think they are just awesome, all powerful units that slightly justify their 100/150 50s cost, the fact of the matter is that in a big engagement, against an opponent who has just 4-5 Ghosts/HT, we lose all 20 of them in 4 seconds to 4 units, just to do ~40 damage DOT to your army. Pretty fucking shitty if you ask me.
And don't tell me "you can just FG casters omg". It's the same range. To cast a spell that has to be chain casted or else is useless. For a unit that dies extremely quickly. And splitting very easily takes care of FG denial on casters.
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overall good pach. going to make huge changes is tvz. mlg hellion build wont be viable. the added 5 seconds on both raxes will make 2 rax way less viable cant 3 hit marauders with fungal nemore which will become more important now that ultralisks can actually be produced before you get rolled with half your supply in eggs.
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Reading all the infestor whine, *which is being nerfed*, and is one of the few actually good units Zerg has (making up for all the bad ones) makes me so happy TL users are not in charge of balance.
Since the fucking release, every time Zerg players were "whining" Protoss and Terran just said everything was a l2p issue and "nomnom delicious Zerg tears". Well, I think it's time now that Protss and Terran learn to play and adapt. I facepalm every time a Zerg goes infestor and the opponent refuses to answer with an appropriate number of Ghosts/HTs and/or some micro. In the meanwhile I'll enjoy all the delicious Terran and Protoss tears, nomnom 
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On September 01 2011 01:48 GLLvz wrote:
AND Both Zerg's/Protosses in korea consistently say that ZVP is unbeatable atm. ...
source ?
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And just because Zerg were winning before, doesn't mean the race was okay. If you watch the games, you'll notice there's a lot of issues, and metagame at play. For instance, for 2 months we saw Zerg stomping Protoss going FFE with roach/ling all-in. Now, we know it's a joke of a build - build an extra cannon (ie a 2nd cannon), scout and see if has roaches before lair or no drones at all. Pretty straightforward.
We also have the games of Nestea and Losira recently going fast third hatch against FFE, and crushing P with mass ling/roach. Has nothing to do with infestors, or end-game.
And if you actually watch the games that went far in, you saw that Protoss stomped Zerg. As in Zerg had zero chance to win once 2+ colossi existed. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor always loses to macro, stakler/colossi, but a lot of P focused on stargate and 'cute' DT play and similar tactics, when if you watch macro games, P always won. Just watch any game with Idra, who relies on macro instead of trying to do weird timings like Losira or Nestea did in ZvP. He always loses to stalker/colossi, straight up, even when he outplays the opponent with drops and more bases.
And you are aware that Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is actually more expensive than Stalker/Colossi armies right? So no, it's not 'P has 2x more invested'. And nevermind that roach/hydra/corruptor is usually 200 supply vs 140 supply, and still gets rolled.
Zerg's only counter to Colossi is infestors. Coruptors are more expensive and shitter than vikings, and just don't do anything aftewrads, and Hydras/roaches are wrecked by sentries and blink stalkers. Before the infestor buff, Zerg could not play against Protoss in end-game.
Also, take a look at the GSLs. The first two - well, ZvT has always been very balanced, and everyone has usually agreed with that barring the complaints about bunkers or 2 raxes here and there, or scouting (not to mention Rainbow played like a gold league scrub in the finals... seriously, double thor rush for defense against mutas as an opening?). And then there was MKP's mass marine style, which was a joke - when you watch games like Kyrix, you realize the only reason he won was because Zerg's kept trying to all-in baneling bust, and never made drones afterwards (kryix never had more than 50 drones the entire series).
Infestors are bad in ZvT, everyone knows that. Going Ling/Infestor as an opening gets smashed by siege tanks, the main problem for Zerg as it is in ZvT. It does work well, however, against Terran who get caught out of position, or who don't make siege tanks. But that's not an issue of infestors, but just a bad Terran. In endgame, BL/Infestor works well, but it's extremely cost inefficient against viking/siege tank, or just ghosts, and only serves to end games Zerg has already won (you will never see a Zerg win a game with BL/Infestor when on even base to Terran, only when they have already well won the game by getting 2+ bases).
In ZvP, we had games like Nestea vs Anypro. The guy who makes 10 gateways on 2 base because he starts to bank minerals and his macro is so damn shitty. Wasn't he the same guy who destroyed his own pylon on Terminus because it blocked his nexus for a FFE? The same guy who went DT expand in every game on the series, and Nestea handled them perfectly and even began to blind counter the DTs?
But you saw the games with July vs MC right? MC had no chance against the macro play of MC in lategame. Whenever Zerg get to endgame against P, they just always lose to stalker/sentry/colossi. And they have no chance anyways, roach/hydra/corruptor is more expensive - so somehow, they must have gotten a huge economic lead - to fight with units that just get owned by P so hardcore.
We saw players like Sen start to utilize baneling rain however. And it's pretty good. But July vs MC XelNaga showed how easily you can micro away from baneling rain. And then all protoss figured out you just blink and split from it, not to mention any air opening owns baneling rain. It's a good play, but it's extremely difficult to pull off, and it's just a matter of whether or not P micros away from it.
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On September 01 2011 02:20 Stiluz wrote:Reading all the infestor whine, *which is being nerfed*, and is one of the few actually good units Zerg has (making up for all the bad ones) makes me so happy TL users are not in charge of balance. Since the fucking release, every time Zerg players were "whining" Protoss and Terran just said everything was a l2p issue and "nomnom delicious Zerg tears". Well, I think it's time now that Protss and Terran learn to play and adapt. I facepalm every time a Zerg goes infestor and the opponent refuses to answer with an appropriate number of Ghosts/HTs and/or some micro. In the meanwhile I'll enjoy all the delicious Terran and Protoss tears, nomnom
And I think you are a f***ing hypocrite, like the majority of those zerg whiners...
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``Also, armor and armor upgrades are not a factor against spells (EMP, storm, FG, SM, transfuse, etc). So I think you are just saying things without really knowing what you are talking about :O``
they are a factor if they have other units shotting/being shot at while being fungaled sir, which is what he was saying
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On September 01 2011 01:53 GLLvz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 01:51 mr_tolkien wrote:On September 01 2011 00:14 GLLvz wrote:
a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement. Toss can in 5s, with a single warp prism, and it doesn't even take much apm (compared to continuous injects while fights are occuring). All the changes are quite good, and Blizz is definitly going in the right way with this patch. Not even going to comment. not worth my time
Probably because you're wrong, bro.
All these changes look great. All those complaining probably haven't tried it at all on the PTR, and not to mention are the same crew that denounce every patch before it is released, then fade into obscurity as we realize everything is alright.
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Is there a good chance blizzard will revert some of these changes and maybe test a few others before the patch is deployed from ptr to bnet?
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On September 01 2011 02:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Loveing the fact that Infestors, the unit that can Defend ground/air/Invisible units with spells and Harass expo's/harass in general isnt getting a nerf against protoss.
Now i don't know how people consider things to be OP, but if i remember correctly, the voidray was nerfed from 7 to 6 range because Marines couldnt hit it, Yet. a Unit that makes a whole army stand still and unable to attack Blords ect gets to stay.
Zerg's defending the Infestors are ruining the game, its literally the worst mechanic in game, it ruins not only Micro but it also ruins all engagements late game.
Shit is funny
Really like the Immortal change tho, going to help defend against 1-1-1 and Early aggression from Terran's. Warp prism Buff is also extremely good if not a little too good imo. wel see. Forcefield 'removes' micro. You could say colossi replacing reavers removed micro. You could also say in BW, that stasis, lockdown, and maybe even ensnare removed micro. And it would much more fair if a t1 caster that 'removed micro' was removed before the most expensive caster in the game, that's t2, that's the only useful unit Z has in ZvP. But I guess 'shits funny" Yes, infestors are strong. That should be expected of a unit that costs more than any other caster in the game (2 infestors = 1 BC + 100 minerals), takes longer to get out, is more vulnerable, is larger, is smart-targetted by AI units automatically. But if you can't capitalize on a Zerg going for infestors, much like a P getting HT before colossi or T getting ghosts before medivacs, and is only using lings (or P using zealots only) to stay alive in the meantime, or are not expanding, then the issue isn't an OP one. Also, even base Viking/SiegeTank (not even including ghosts, by the way) is way more cost efficient than BL/Infestor. Infestors are 2 shotted by siege tanks, and both infestors and BL are a helluva lot more expensive than siege tanks and vikings. I have never, ever seen BL/Infestor win a game for Zerg when they were on even bases with Terran, on the pro level. Because it won't. However, if Zerg has already owned the Terran and he's pretty much being BM and still in the game, even when Zerg has 2+ bases, then yea, BL/Infestor is a nice way to kill a turtling Terran who has a single fucking PF at the choke. Show nested quote + a Zerg can Trade army's with a Protoss @ 200/200, when they can resupply 200/200 in less then 40sec. It nullifies any harass whatsoever and it also nullifies any Engagement. So... is larva inject really what's OP, or are infestors OP? Are you making a rational balance claim, or just venting about how much you hate Zerg? Maybe you should try getting to Masters, or at least Diamond, with Zerg, and then see how 'op' they are. I'm not trying to say Zerg is UP here, what I'm saying is that it sounds like you are just venting. First off, you realize to resupply, Zerg has to bank a lot of money right? So assuming that Zerg doesn't just have super shitty macro, and the other player has just as shitty macro and therefore is challenged by this shitty Zerg player, this Zerg player somehow had to get an overwhelming macro about 2 minutes before this big engagement occurs. Meaning 1 of 2 things happened: 1. Zerg got a huge lead somehow already, either by a ling runby, awesome baneling drop harass, catching 6 colossi for free rallied somewhere, snuck in burrow roaches, or just had much more superior macro, etc. 2. Zerg took a huge gamble by expanding when he shouldn't have, and Protoss simply didn't just go kill the expo or the Zerg's main during his time of weakness. But Protoss was either bad, or was doing a similiarly vulnerable gamble (like teching to mothership) and it didn't pay off. Because otherwise, there is no way Zerg is going to be banking over 2k gas to resupply like that. Also, Ultralisks resupply in 70+ seconds... more than a fucking minute. Broodlords also take quite a long time. So what exactly is Zerg just going to remax on and win with, unless they rolled your army completely? And what does that have to do with harass? Because Zerg can remax, you can't use dropships or DTs? Like... what? We see plenty of T drop Zerg during big battles. Resupply and infestors have nothing to do with drops or harass, and the latter is actually very vulnerable to it. And how do infestors 'nullify' any engagement? Unlike HT or ghosts, Zerg has no anti-caster, so where ghosts can get FB'd and then healed, or HT can turn into archons, the low HP and huge target infestor, is either 1 shotted by FB or made completely useless after being EMP'd. That would be like if EMP made it so HT can't turn into archons, or FB prevented ghosts from shooting... and killed them, and prevented medivac heal. FG also has to chain casted. So while you may think they are just awesome, all powerful units that slightly justify their 100/150 50s cost, the fact of the matter is that in a big engagement, against an opponent who has just 4-5 Ghosts/HT, we lose all 20 of them in 4 seconds to 4 units, just to do ~40 damage DOT to your army. Pretty fucking shitty if you ask me. And don't tell me "you can just FG casters omg". It's the same range. To cast a spell that has to be chain casted or else is useless. For a unit that dies extremely quickly. And splitting very easily takes care of FG denial on casters.
you assume that zerg having more bases than terran/protoss means they should win.
no. that's not how it works. zerg need more bases to be equal to any protoss/terran with a sustainable income. that's how zerg has always been, that's the mechanics of zerg. if you see a zerg on equal bases with any protoss/terran with sustainable income then the zerg is failing.
also, what's stopping you from NPing the 5 ghosts/HT? oh, it's not viable? well it's easily as viable as successfully shutting down 20 infestors with your 5 ghosts.
p.s. i think you'll find that infestor is about average cost for a mid-tier caster unit in sc2.
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EPT
