Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
It takes a full three seconds of Storm to get the same energy efficiency of a single Seeker missile
You obviously can't just take the damage value and divide it by the energy required for the spell. There's a ton of other factors involved that are the reason why storm and fungal growth are (rightfully) considered to be way better spells than seeker missile. The range of the spell, the area of effect, instant damage vs. projectile spell, the immobilizing effect of fungal growth and so on.
On August 26 2011 06:44 KentHenry wrote: A video for those who think that you can't 2 snipe Infestors.
Which isn't even remotely feasible. Notice in every single video of it taking two snipes, they've been lined up, move commanded to the same area, then shift queued? If you don't use shift queue move -> snipes it's not humanly possible, I'd like to see someone prove me wrong. At the same time, you can't even use shift commands because you're going to get fungaled before you get htat close, which COMPLETLEY fucks it up.
Its not losing the 200 minerals thats the scare it losing the 4 HT or DTs inside.
But isn't this also part of the beauty of WP compared to the other races' drop options? By either navigating to a spot where you will be undetected or risking the possibility of giving your opponent a few more seconds to react while you transform and warp in, you don't have to risk any units on the way in. (I suppose Zergs can trade risking extra ovies for units loaded inside) And on the way out... well it's pretty equally situational, just that overlords are faster and beefiest. WP next (with this patch) and same speed as Medivac, unless you invest in upgrade to make WP faster.
And what are you going to do with those High Templar you warped in to an enemy base? Feedback the Orbital Command/Nexus/Queens?
You're not allowed to feedback structures. Won't allow you. I'd feedback a queen tho.
Wait, so you can EMP a structure but not Feedback it? Some things in this game seriously don't make sense.
It takes a full three seconds of Storm to get the same energy efficiency of a single Seeker missile
damage per energy? lol your crazy bro. seeker missle dont even connect most times (and the raven ALWAYS dies while casting it), costs an upgrade (beyond the unit itself), then you have to wait a year for 150 energy.
WHO ARE YOU?! Chuck Norris? Only he would make such a bold claim. Btw, the 3 in-game seconds (you speak of with regards to storm) is like 1.8 normal seconds... not long at all.
Its not losing the 200 minerals thats the scare it losing the 4 HT or DTs inside.
But isn't this also part of the beauty of WP compared to the other races' drop options? By either navigating to a spot where you will be undetected or risking the possibility of giving your opponent a few more seconds to react while you transform and warp in, you don't have to risk any units on the way in. (I suppose Zergs can trade risking extra ovies for units loaded inside) And on the way out... well it's pretty equally situational, just that overlords are faster and beefiest. WP next (with this patch) and same speed as Medivac, unless you invest in upgrade to make WP faster.
And what are you going to do with those High Templar you warped in to an enemy base? Feedback the Orbital Command/Nexus/Queens?
You're not allowed to feedback structures. Won't allow you. I'd feedback a queen tho.
Wait, so you can EMP a structure but not Feedback it? Some things in this game seriously don't make sense.
On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote: Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason? EDIT 2: nm
ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc..
On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:
On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote: Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out
Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.)
More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.).
At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker.
Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_>
This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades.
On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:
On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:
If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite.
Huh ?
No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd.
Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen.
On August 26 2011 06:41 Lurk wrote:
It's not possible to do 2 things simultaneously in SC2, the events are processed in sequence. So the instant the drone gets hit by the first hellion, it generates 1 hp, then gets hit by the second hellion and survives with 1 hp.
You can try it out as often as you like, you'll always get to the abovementioned result.
Okay I did indeed test this, and you both are correct. On the current patch I tested two +3 hellions with no blue flame, which do 20 damage to light, versus +0 carapace drones. If regeneration wasn't instant they would have been killed in one volley by the two hellions each time, but usually they survive with one hit point.
Testing this I won't go so far to say the drones will always survive two shots, as one out of every four or five attempts the drone was actually killed by the two-shot volley of the two hellions. I didn't do anything special to get this result, the hellions shots occasionally just line up such that the drone dies.
This means that +1 carapace drones would usually be safe from being two-shotted by +1 hellions, and +2 hellions would not usually two-shot +3 carapace drones.
In a nutshell: If these changes go through, +1 hellions will two-shot +0 carapace drones, +2 hellions will two-shot +0 through +2 carapace drones, and +3 hellions will always two-shot drones.
It takes a full three seconds of Storm to get the same energy efficiency of a single Seeker missile
damage per energy? lol your crazy bro. seeker missle dont even connect most times (and the raven ALWAYS dies while casting it), costs an upgrade (beyond the unit itself), then you have to wait a year for 150 energy.
WHO ARE YOU?! Chuck Norris? Only he would make such a bold claim. Btw, the 3 in-game seconds (you speak of with regards to storm) is like 1.8 normal seconds... not long at all.
How often do you see Pro players stand in a full storm? Hardly any
Seeker now connects with virtually every unit in the game sans the really fast units (Stalkers,Ultras, most Zerg units on Creep). But then again, those aren't any easier to hit with Storm unless they are standing still either
The damage it does for its energy cost is more than fine considering it can now no longer be avoided unless you can move faster than 2.95~ speed, where as something like a Psi-Storm can be easily avoided, even if you move at 2.25 speed
On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote: Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
EDIT: Above post... you just quoted yourself for no reason? EDIT 2: nm
ye fucked somewhat up with editing and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc..
On August 26 2011 05:15 Zanno wrote:
On August 26 2011 05:13 zarepath wrote: Does getting Blue Flame and the +1 attack end up equaling the original blue flame upgrade?
yes, but carapace (an upgrade that all zergs will eventually get) will cancel it out
Terran Vehicle Weapon upgrades only give +1 damage to Hellions. In Patch 1.4, even with all 3 weapon upgrades and Blue Flame, Hellions will still do 2 less damage to Light targets than they did PRE-1.4 with Blue Flame alone. (And -- Obviously the number of hits required to kill something depends on what you're shooting.)
More specifically (in the case of BF vs workers): Patch 1.4 Blue Flame Hellions will do 19 damage to workers. Getting +1 weapon will make that 20 (and the other player getting +1 armor will offset that, etc.).
At EQUAL upgrades on both sides, it will take 3 hits for a BF Hellion to kill workers. But IF the BF Hellion player has MORE weapon upgrades than the other player's armor upgrades, it will take 2 hits for a BF Hellion to kill a worker.
Edit: Unless I'm reading Liquipedia wrong, in which case Hellions get +2 vs Light from each Vehicle Weapon upg. >_>
This is correct. Hellions get +2 versus light for each weapon upgrade. This means that with blue flame and +1 weapons the Hellion will do 21 damage versus light, two-shotting +0 carapace and +1 carapace drones. At +2 weapons and blue flame, hellions will two shot any drone regardless of upgrades.
On August 26 2011 05:36 Kinetik_Inferno wrote:
On August 26 2011 05:30 ArcticRaven wrote:
If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite.
Huh ?
No idea. What came to mind was a pylon, but those can't be NP'd
Warp Prisms provide power and can be NP'd.
Wouldn't it be 3-shotting drones because drone regen 1hp (assuming 1 carapace and hellions doing 21 dmg)? Same as snipe vs infestor. More often than not the flames don't hit simultaneously, I'd say it's in fact quite rare for that to happen.
No it won't regen in time. Regen isn't quite instant, you can even kill infestors with 2 snipes for example, if you're fast enough.
Are you positive? Regen was instant in SC1, and the snipes do have to be simultaneous to kill an infestor... if it's even a half second off it won't kill the infestor as I've found out from trying many, many times...
AFAIK it's not actually possible to literally snipe 2x instantly, so the fact that it can work shows that regen isn't quite instant. It's extremely fast, but so are 3 hellions shooting at the same time (may be instant, not sure if the animation is just for show or not).
It's not possible to do 2 things simultaneously in SC2, the events are processed in sequence. So the instant the drone gets hit by the first hellion, it generates 1 hp, then gets hit by the second hellion and survives with 1 hp.
You can try it out as often as you like, you'll always get to the abovementioned result.
In practice, this explanation works. It's not actually what happens "behind the scenes", but you will probably never witness two units that each deal 20 damage to another unit with 40 HP and any substantial amount of life regen "two-shot" that unit.
If you want to know exactly what happens when two +5 BFH/+2 vs light weapon upgraded hellions simultaneously attack a +1 carapace drone, I'm here for you. Granted, it's probably never going to matter that you know, but some people just do like to know.
Both hellions are ordered to attack
Like all SC2 MP units, hellions have a random attack delay min/max built into their weapon. For the hellion specifically, the minimum delay is -.0625 seconds (no, they don't attack before the order in some sort of time paradox, but if they're continuing to attack while their weapon cooldown is still active they may ignore up to the last .0625 seconds of it). The delay max is .125 seconds. This randomly generated delay staggers the attacks of multiple units working in tandem, minimizing same-hits on already dead targets and therefore wasted DPS (it also makes siege tanks so "smart", when compared to BW). Two hellions are therefore VERY unlikely to ever generate the same delay and shoot within the same game cycle.
Inbetween the difference in weapon delays, the drone regenerates a fraction of its life regen value each game cycle. It does not instantly regenerate 1 HP. If a hellion hits a drone for 14 damage from full health, that drone will go to 26 HP, not 27. Almost instantly it will however regen up to something like 26.07 HP within the next game cycle.
If a unit is brought below 1 HP but still above 0 HP (say, 0.35 HP) it will display 1 HP for human comprehension purposes.
The only difference these minute details make from Lurk's simplification is that there is a VERY small chance you could two-shot a +1 armor drone with +7 Hellions, that drones do not actually instantly regenerate 1 full HP after being hit from their maximum life value and that two actions can happen within the same game cycle ("simultaneously").
Why does Blizzard want Terrans to revolve solely around infantry. EVERY SINGLE TIME factory units start to make a splash on the scene they are IMMEDIATELY nerfed and nerfed hard.
Mech becomes strong in the beta nerfed tanks to hell vs protoss, Thor based Mech becomes a good timing push strategy, immediately nerfed to shit, Hellions start to become really really popular, now pre igniter a 150/150 upgrade only gives +5 dmg vs light.....150 minerals and 150 gas for 5 damage......
Now TvT is going to be super Marine heavy yet again and if that isn't bad enough now Mech will actually be obsolete vs protoss. With a lot of mass zlot and archons popping out you really depended on the hellions to burst down a lot of zlots very quickly and now it will take more shots and hellions shoot pretty darn slowly. Tanks hardly do anything without protection from zlots.
The hellions extreme damage against zlots was what kind of made up for a lack of mines to keep things away from the tanks and now nothing will really stop mass zlots when going Mech. Blizzard should be encouraging more factory use rather than discouraging as I'm pretty sure a majority of Terran fans love watching the Factory heavy play from Terran players.
Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes.
Thank god, believe it or not this has delayed my hatchery soooo much some times.
Also, hellion, Blink and Inf nerfs are all much needed. great patch all around. It will be interesting to see what ultra prism and immortal buffs actually accomplish.
I feel like the BF nerf is too much, just when mech tvt was being figured out they nerf it? Guess marine builds will become a lot more popular again.
Also blink? :s And rax build time?
Honestly don't think fungal was too bad.
And seeker missile? Well it can catch up to vikings and infestors(I'm guessing just barely not on creep though). Because of range zerg can fungal before T can seeker missile, even though that would require pretty good micro.
Last but not least, marines and marauders must now stim to get away from the seeker, although splitting is still possible.
So basically seeker missile is a lot better, even though the high energy cost remains.
On August 26 2011 07:18 moregamethanSEGA wrote: oh and seeker missle can only be cast ONCE when the raven has FULL energy. how many storms can you cast with full energy for HT?
How often do you see Pro players stand in a full storm? Hardly any
Seeker now connects with virtually every unit in the game sans the really fast units (Stalkers,Ultras, most Zerg units on Creep). But then again, those weren't any easier to hit.
The damage it does for its energy cost is more than fine considering it can now no longer be avoided unless you can move faster than 2.95~ speed, where as something like a Psi-Storm can be easily avoided, even if you move at 2.25
hmmm... so what exactly are you looking to cast seeker missle on? you need TWO to kill any unit of significance in the game (you only get 1 shot btw) and because of the cap on the ravens energy + the cost of the spell mean 1 raven = 1 seeker missle, wheras HT and infestors can cast mutliple times. the theory craft is fine but in practice this just doesn't hold water.
lol btw on the pro players avoiding storm... such a lie. its call ffs, chokes, colosi and chargelots. these are all reasons pro players cant just waltz around storms... nice try though.
On August 26 2011 07:24 Grndr101 wrote: I feel like the BF nerf is too much, just when mech tvt was being figured out they nerf it? Guess marine builds will become a lot more popular again.
Also blink? :s And rax build time?
Honestly don't think fungal was too bad.
And seeker missile? Well it can catch up to vikings and infestors(I'm guessing just barely not on creep though). Because of range zerg can fungal before T can seeker missile, even though that would require pretty good micro.
Last but not least, marines and marauders must now stim to get away from the seeker, although splitting is still possible.
So basically seeker missile is a lot better, even though the high energy cost remains.
After thinking a lot about it I don´t think it will hurt Mech in either TvT nor TvZ. While BFH did a lot of damage, they strong point was the splash damage they do. I think that as long as you can get good engagements Mech shouldn´t suffer too much. Late game stuff will be decided by Tank count anyways.
Its not losing the 200 minerals thats the scare it losing the 4 HT or DTs inside.
But isn't this also part of the beauty of WP compared to the other races' drop options? By either navigating to a spot where you will be undetected or risking the possibility of giving your opponent a few more seconds to react while you transform and warp in, you don't have to risk any units on the way in. (I suppose Zergs can trade risking extra ovies for units loaded inside) And on the way out... well it's pretty equally situational, just that overlords are faster and beefiest. WP next (with this patch) and same speed as Medivac, unless you invest in upgrade to make WP faster.
And what are you going to do with those High Templar you warped in to an enemy base? Feedback the Orbital Command/Nexus/Queens?
You're not allowed to feedback structures. Won't allow you. I'd feedback a queen tho.
Wait, so you can EMP a structure but not Feedback it? Some things in this game seriously don't make sense.
Like how there is an alien race that can warp in giant structures from thin air?
EPT
and yeah I think +1 would equal blue flamers..still zerg makes armor etc..
