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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
Its only good on low econ and small army sizes . You have to kite with Bio against charge and AOE and if you integrate Siege well they can't kite and once Zealots with charge hit they'll even hurt more then help.
unless you focus fire with the tanks on the stalkers/colossus... you know, with micro...
The glory of siege tech is that you kite INTO the siege tank range, not saying you wont see marauders with your marines, but an army composition that can only shoot at one layer of the enemies force at a time is pretty weak to the meat shield/glass cannon unit composition. aka zealots with any other protoss units behind it.
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Fungle Nerf will hurt Zergs who face well microed marines. The marines will be more used now (most likely) and I wish for the opposite. I got excited about the Ultralisk change but they are still "meh" 
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On August 26 2011 07:43 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:35 Dommk wrote:Cast 2 storms on a group of 21 hold position zealots (In shockinlyg perfect formation for this situation) and you kill 21 zealots for 150 energy over 8 seconds.
Cast 2 Seeker Missles on 21 hold position zealots (also, in startlingly tight and perfect formation) and you kill 5 (And leave 8 undamaged) for 250 energy (and in about 1 second unless you cast right over top the unit, which means friendly fire will nuke a Raven)
How did you work this out 0o? I can't find the damage calculations for Seeker as the unit is further away from the centre of the explosion. And by 8 Zealots being undamaged, you mean they only took shield damage correct? But now lets make a comparison, 2 Storms on a group of Zealots running away and you won't scratch them, 2 Seekers on a group of Zealots running away and you still have the same result. 8 seconds is a really LONG time That came from a day when I 2xHSM'ed an attacking Zealot army that was mobile and did around 400 damage, then decided to go to Yee olde Unite Testere (With Extra E's!) And test just how much damage HSM did. It wasn't pretty. Actually, going off memory, I think I couldn't hit 2 zealots with the storms, so only 19 died. My apologies on that. I actually mean that it didn't do any damage at all. Baneling explosion without fall off has a larger damage range than HSM even at it's 25 damage range. Also, you're wrong. 2 Storms on a group of zealots running away and you'll do maybe 40 shield damage to all of them (Kinda similar to what 2 Emps would do). 2 HSM's on a group of zealots running away and you'll do 0 damage because HSM needs to be cast only when someone isn't paying attention or is moving towards you
I don't understand how it can do 0 damage when the Spell has a 33% greater AOE than Psi-Storm.
If Psi-Storm can hit 19 Zealots, then Seeker should be able to hit 25
Seeker Missile is almost 0.25 Speed faster than a Chargelot (0.75 faster than a regular one). If you Seeker Missile a Zealot in the middle of the pack, there is almost no chance it can be micro'd away.
But for all intents and purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile.
But different Spells are different. Psi-Storm can only ever do 20DPS per 1.5radious AOE. Multiple Seekers on the other hand can be chained, which makes the spell significantly stronger when the Raven numbers increase
(And because of friendly fire, is very dangerous to cast a HSM on a 150 hp zealot charging towards 6 55 hp marines. It's pretty awkward to need to kite your own spell)
Psi Storm has its draw backs as well. If you cast Psi-Storm on the front line of the enemy Bio, then your Zealots will eat the tail end of the Storm as they kite backwards. Seeker is fast, but Stimmed bio are faster and unfortunately Zealots aren't (unless they are charging, but they will be avoiding the Seeker whilst Charging, so there is no threat of an unavoidable seeker Missile hitting your army due to a kamikaze Zealot)
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On August 26 2011 07:46 MinimalistSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +Its only good on low econ and small army sizes . You have to kite with Bio against charge and AOE and if you integrate Siege well they can't kite and once Zealots with charge hit they'll even hurt more then help. unless you focus fire with the tanks on the stalkers/colossus... you know, with micro...
What stalker / colossus?
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On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:
But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile.
/pedant mode on
The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". "for all intensive purposes" does not actually make any sense.
/pedant mode off.
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What stalker / colossus?
The units that aren't zealots.
better?
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On August 26 2011 07:53 MinimalistSC2 wrote:The units that aren't zealots. better?
Except no one makes them vs bio/mech beyond early game once chargelots are out.
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On August 26 2011 07:53 MinimalistSC2 wrote:The units that aren't zealots. better?
If someone is attacking into a siegeline, the likely unit composition is immortals and zealots. Neither is a great target for tanks, obviously. This is intended :p
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On August 26 2011 07:52 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:
But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile.
/pedant mode on The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". "for all intensive purposes" does not actually make any sense. /pedant mode off.
Fixed :| I've only ever heard the phrase by ear 
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On August 26 2011 07:55 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:52 Yaotzin wrote:On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:
But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile.
/pedant mode on The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". "for all intensive purposes" does not actually make any sense. /pedant mode off. Fixed :| I've only ever heard the phrase by ear
I did the same thing which is why it bugs me :>
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On August 26 2011 07:50 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:43 Fuzzmosis wrote:On August 26 2011 07:35 Dommk wrote:Cast 2 storms on a group of 21 hold position zealots (In shockinlyg perfect formation for this situation) and you kill 21 zealots for 150 energy over 8 seconds.
Cast 2 Seeker Missles on 21 hold position zealots (also, in startlingly tight and perfect formation) and you kill 5 (And leave 8 undamaged) for 250 energy (and in about 1 second unless you cast right over top the unit, which means friendly fire will nuke a Raven)
How did you work this out 0o? I can't find the damage calculations for Seeker as the unit is further away from the centre of the explosion. And by 8 Zealots being undamaged, you mean they only took shield damage correct? But now lets make a comparison, 2 Storms on a group of Zealots running away and you won't scratch them, 2 Seekers on a group of Zealots running away and you still have the same result. 8 seconds is a really LONG time That came from a day when I 2xHSM'ed an attacking Zealot army that was mobile and did around 400 damage, then decided to go to Yee olde Unite Testere (With Extra E's!) And test just how much damage HSM did. It wasn't pretty. Actually, going off memory, I think I couldn't hit 2 zealots with the storms, so only 19 died. My apologies on that. I actually mean that it didn't do any damage at all. Baneling explosion without fall off has a larger damage range than HSM even at it's 25 damage range. Also, you're wrong. 2 Storms on a group of zealots running away and you'll do maybe 40 shield damage to all of them (Kinda similar to what 2 Emps would do). 2 HSM's on a group of zealots running away and you'll do 0 damage because HSM needs to be cast only when someone isn't paying attention or is moving towards you (And because of friendly fire, is very dangerous to cast a HSM on a 150 hp zealot charging towards 6 55 hp marines. It's pretty awkward to need to kite your own spell) I don't understand how it can do 0 damage when the Spell has a 33% greater AOE than Psi-Storm. If Psi-Storm can hit 19 Zealots, then Seeker should be able to hit 25 Seeker Missile is almost 0.25 Speed faster than a Chargelot (0.75 faster than a regular one). If you Seeker Missile a Zealot in the middle of the pack, there is almost no chance it can be micro'd away. But for all intensive purposes, if it can be hit by Storm then it can be hit by Seeker Missile. But different Spells are different. Psi-Storm can only ever do 20DPS per 1.5radious AOE. Multiple Seekers on the other hand can be chained, which makes the spell significantly stronger when the Raven number increases
So... let's see here. I cast a missile that is 9 distance away from an already retreating zealot, moving .75 speed faster. You're saying that in 12 seconds, the zealots cannot be scattered. I'm worried about your opinion of protoss players. Again, if they are charging or not retreating, different story, but this is your example. (IF they have charge, if they are retreating, they can't even be hit if durable materials DOUBLED the length because the missile craps out)
For the damage range, I have no idea why. I did the test in a unit tester. Maybe the map maker modified the HSM in that case, but storm was more effective than HSM period for less energy. Even 1 cast. You're free to clump up high HP units (And low HP units) and give it your own test. You may come back and say "Fuzzy, you screwed up, clearly you did it wrong" or "Huh. That's stupid". Either or, but please do try it since your other explanations have worried me.
NInja Edit, like you!
Yes, Psi Storm does have the potential to hit your own zealots. Not going to even try to deny that. But being a cheap, instant cast that can be produced easier than a Raven (Less Gas, less wait, 5 second summon) that does more damage over an area (You keep calling that into question, I keep telling you to test) doing friendly fire or a suicide attack is better than a detector with other useful spells suiciding because of a terrible, terrible spell. In addition, you need to march your own units into the spell. HSM can be led into your own units (Assuming amazing Micro, or amazing luck).
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So... let's see here. I cast a missile that is 9 distance away from an already retreating zealot, moving .75 speed faster. You're saying that in 12 seconds,
I've got to do something atm, but I want to clear something up.
Seeker Missile can only be cast at 6range. It speeds up to an absurd movespeed when it gets within 2range of a unit. Will reply/read the rest of your post later
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Omg, the ramp vision change is going to be massive. However, I can tell terrans are going to be super mad about the reduced hellion strength, they're going to be so bad now..
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This'll probably be good for mappers, assuming the new data editor UI is better rather than worse.
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On August 26 2011 07:30 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Oh, and why havn't Colluses been given friendly fire like a siege tank?
What kind of question is this? If the colossus is given friendly fire you might as well give the baneling friendly fire. Do you see why now?
Siege tanks already have smart AI and smart targeting.
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On August 26 2011 07:30 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
OH BTW, the counter to seeker missle - BURRRRRRROW.
you are aware that the unit that fires said missile is also a detector, right ?
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On August 26 2011 08:04 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:30 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Oh, and why havn't Colluses been given friendly fire like a siege tank? What kind of question is this? If the colossus is given friendly fire you might as well give the baneling friendly fire. Do you see why now? Siege tanks already have smart AI and smart targeting.
Oh god ZvZ with baneling friendly fire... don't give me nightmares please.
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On August 26 2011 08:08 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 08:04 iChau wrote:On August 26 2011 07:30 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Oh, and why havn't Colluses been given friendly fire like a siege tank? What kind of question is this? If the colossus is given friendly fire you might as well give the baneling friendly fire. Do you see why now? Siege tanks already have smart AI and smart targeting. Oh god ZvZ with baneling friendly fire... don't give me nightmares please.
Baneling chain reactions would be awesome.
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On August 26 2011 08:04 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:30 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Oh, and why havn't Colluses been given friendly fire like a siege tank? What kind of question is this? If the colossus is given friendly fire you might as well give the baneling friendly fire. Do you see why now? Siege tanks already have smart AI and smart targeting.
Yeah, I did also include in that list of random murmers Hellions and Banelings. I find it weird that 2 Terran AOE attacks and 1 Protoss AOE attack give friendly fire, but others don't. Was more of a ponderance than a serious suggestion.
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On August 26 2011 08:10 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 08:04 iChau wrote:On August 26 2011 07:30 Fuzzmosis wrote:
Oh, and why havn't Colluses been given friendly fire like a siege tank? What kind of question is this? If the colossus is given friendly fire you might as well give the baneling friendly fire. Do you see why now? Siege tanks already have smart AI and smart targeting. Yeah, I did also include in that list of random murmers Hellions and Banelings. I find it weird that 2 Terran AOE attacks and 1 Protoss AOE attack give friendly fire, but others don't. Was more of a ponderance than a serious suggestion.
Simple utility presumably. Banelings can't do friendly fire or they'll just blow each other up in ridiculous fashion. The reason for collo is that they'll simply fry all your zealots. What's the point of these units if they do this?
Terran is unusual in that all but their worker is ranged, so a unit like the siege tank makes sense. Not so much when you use melee units.
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EPT
