EPT
Patch 1.4 PTR Notes (updated 9/8) - Page 170
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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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sephius
United Kingdom200 Posts
For those that cling onto the Hellion, you're ignorant if you think it's the end of the Hellions line. It will still be used, no doubt. It's just at a point now where it's not essential to get, which is what it was for TvT. | ||
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Fuzzmosis
Canada752 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:39 babjengi wrote: This comment right here proves you know nothing about the game. Just one spore crawler and one spine crawler at a base, and with just that, I have to have at least 4+ dark templar to take that base (not to mention, drones run faster than dt's). I need even more if the queen has energy for a transfuse. Against a terran with planetary fortress and one missile turret + scans, and 100 dt's couldn't touch that. Hellions? Who cares if you lose them. If each hellion kills 1.5 workers, they've paid for themselves. DT's? Not so much. It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:38 Fuzzmosis wrote: Agreed, if Dark Templars are permamently visible. Hey, they have 3x the damage against all types! Don't you hate it when really strong units exist on all three sides? Apparently you do. DTs are situational. If they are scouted, they set you far behind, or you lose the game. They are also expensive and slow. Hellions almost always do insane eco damage, even if they are scouted. Because of speed and sick splash and bonus vs light. There should not be guaranteed harass damage in a balanced game. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote: It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. You made a snarky comment and got called out. Stop acting so defensive. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote: Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. That was kinda his point. | ||
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h0oTiS
United States101 Posts
Edit: Blue Flame is no-longer necessary tvz/tvp as 3 hellions will one shot workers, in TVT you will need the BFlame to 3 hit workers when it used to be two hit on everything, its kinda stupid really that they just Nerf something but don't offer a real fix rather than just making it a non issue like why not a queen buff or something i mean bflame is't even popular in tvp and tvt is well fail development on part of blizzard if they don't want mech battles and they won't even make bio or mech an option you have to play a mix taking the good units from each instead of each having their own counters being equal just having advantages and disadvantages based on fast mobility and low health vs slow strong power. | ||
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babjengi
United States30 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:48 Fuzzmosis wrote: It's weird, I was murmering about BFH's having friendly fire earlier, and everyone more concentrated on the part about Banelings/Collusi. Here's a hint: if you're attacking a terran or zerg with 4 DT's and they have a single detector, attack that detector. It goes down in 5 hits. (4 if terran). Huh. That was easy. Are you sure you're playing right? The original question also came down to the worlds most pathetic "I don't have a protoss unit that can get 10 worker kills", and suddenly I'm forced to argue about BFH's. Thanks internet. You're all lovely people. Jesus, Protoss really like martying their units. Blue Flame Hellions are terrible when they get inside. Just like ling runbys, only BFH's only kill workers and not your production and entire base and only really come in 4's most of the time and not 50. So, how did people counter ling runbys? Even with the damaged reduced, Hellions will still be happily roasting workers at a slower rate because it interupts mining. You didn't even read what I said... -_-;;; I said if they have ONE spore and ONE spine, I need FOUR+ (that means 4 or more) to take it out. And I said moreso if the queen can transfuse. I wonder why that is? Oh, and you kill a turret, that's cute. I'm sure scans have nothing to do with anything, and I'm sure terrans only build 1 turret at a planetary fortress. And killing 20 workers >>>>>> killing buildings with a single drop. Why? 20 workers is already 1000 minerals, AND they're going to be mining less money, meaning the overall cost is even higher. 1000 lost, 1000 to replace, and an unknown quantity of lost mining time. This in turn ruins production, rendering buildings useless cuz you have no money to spend on them. Do you understand that this is a game of economy yet? Or are you still stuck on the idea that if you can destroy 3 supply depots with a drop that you've won the game? | ||
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:54 h0oTiS wrote: I don't understand the hellion nerf, i could understand that they increase the train time or somthing like making it cost more, but all that dose is nerf hellions in the late game and hellions in the late game aren't worth it anyway other than a mineral dump and a tanking unit for other mech units like siege tank and thor which just get ripped apart in small numbers. Hellions were only popular because they can destroy drone/probe lines not because there super good at everything else, i mean you didn't even give the meta game long enough to realize that hellion drops are super easy to stop if you don't line em up, thanks for nerfing the hellion and just making it a worse unit for no reason Its that fact that 4 minimally microed units could destroy all of your workers in like 5 seconds. At least with reaver drops there was skill involved. This change just means that you will need to focus fire my drones, not hold position in my mineral line. | ||
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Ender.Wiggin
United Kingdom17 Posts
In regards to the other changes. Infestor nerf is good, except it doesn't really address the issue of investors. It is not the damage they do with fungal that is the biggest problem. It is a) that fungal snares, so any roach/lings decemate your army, and b) infestors have such high utility with infested terrans and neural paracite both extremely good, as well as their decent speed and ability to burrow. I dont' think many people really care about the extra 6 damage... I don't know why people are complaining about the +5 sec to barracks so much, try getting +20 (originally was supposed to be +40!!) to warp gate research, and then +30 to blink in the very next patch. I like the Hunter Seeker buff, but we will have to wait and see if it might start getting overused (in the same way infestors were), it's a pretty amazing spell to have on a detector unit. The overseer change is really good, and i'm glad they had the forsight to see how strong contamiante would be! BC and Carriers still not viable, neither are motherships really, despite the superficial buff. Ghosts are still too good. | ||
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Fuzzmosis
Canada752 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:52 -_- wrote: You made a snarky comment and got called out. Stop acting so defensive. I also apparently made a snarky comment and got called out in my quote. Interesting. Don't misquote me while whining about me. Or I'll get Snarky on you. Apparently this discussion is getting religious because taking some piss out of some stupid comments is getting people angry at me. I've never really argued for BFH's strangely. I just keep hearing this nonsensical whine, and keep questioning it. All I keep hearing is "Oh it's so damn hard to use our units!". Even I did that with Raven HSM, thinking it's not enough. Also, for the other guy: So his point was he needs to spend more resources to attack a defended base than a Terran would to attack an undefended base. Gotcha. Maybe he was trying to say that the Sim City to defend against BFH's is much more complex than the sim city to defend against DT's without commenting on any of the other DT's offensive and defensive use deliberately to dry to devaluate them because I had placed value on them in regards to an earlier point and now everyone is in on this? | ||
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
Rax nerf is unneeded. Hope it doesn't make it through to the live servers. The rax nerf is for the 11-11 2 rax vs zerg, but the only problem with that build is that maps in ladder pool are way to fucking small. make bigger maps so units have to travel further, don't increase build times... jesus | ||
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On August 26 2011 07:30 MinimalistSC2 wrote: Hellions will still 2 shot lings and with +1 mech weapons they will still 2 shot probes and drones, calm down. And Bio-mech is the new TvP haven't you seen Hyung vs Puzzle? I dont understand how you think that one game and a few other marine tank banshee one base allins makes bio mech the new tvp...... | ||
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Nymbul
United Kingdom127 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:35 H0i wrote: Changing dt cost to 100 minerals and unlocking them with cyber core would be a better option! That would actually be hilarious. Then, people can make threads on teamliquid about how it is overpowered, and others can then reply, talking about how it should get some time and how the metagame will evolve. I'd rather the Twilight Council to not require the cyber core tbh. Why you need the cybernetics building to get non cybernetics units is beyond me | ||
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FoeHamr
United States489 Posts
On August 26 2011 09:01 Fuzzmosis wrote: Also, for the other guy: So his point was he needs to spend more resources to attack a defended base than a Terran would to attack an undefended base. Gotcha. Maybe he was trying to say that the Sim City to defend against BFH's is much more complex than the sim city to defend against DT's without commenting on any of the other DT's offensive and defensive use deliberately to dry to devaluate them because I had placed value on them in regards to an earlier point and now everyone is in on this? I don't understand. Your saying the DT is the equivalent of hellions or something but if that's your argument, your wrong. Your comparing a cheap and low-investment anti-light unit(workers happen to be light) to an expensive high-investment cloaked unit that you basically suicide in order to trade for workers. edit for clarification | ||
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Fuzzmosis
Canada752 Posts
On August 26 2011 08:56 babjengi wrote: You didn't even read what I said... -_-;;; I said if they have ONE spore and ONE spine, I need FOUR+ (that means 4 or more) to take it out. And I said moreso if the queen can transfuse. I wonder why that is? Oh, and you kill a turret, that's cute. I'm sure scans have nothing to do with anything, and I'm sure terrans only build 1 turret at a planetary fortress. And killing 20 workers >>>>>> killing buildings with a single drop. Why? 20 workers is already 1000 minerals, AND they're going to be mining less money, meaning the overall cost is even higher. 1000 lost, 1000 to replace, and an unknown quantity of lost mining time. This in turn ruins production, rendering buildings useless cuz you have no money to spend on them. Do you understand that this is a game of economy yet? Or are you still stuck on the idea that if you can destroy 3 supply depots with a drop that you've won the game? Do you not understand that my comments started because of some random Protoss pretending they couldn't do economic damage? Here's a hint: I agree that blue flames are extremely cost effective and no race has determined a fantastic way to prevent their low cost into high economic damage. If a terran has a PF the blue flames will still kill around 10 workers (and a protoss will kill either infinite or do the same thing as a smart player would do, and not fight against a position defended against them) I do like the random attacks you keep giving me on my understanding of the game. Are you going to explain why drops are hugely popular with Terrans only now? | ||
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XnG_777
713 Posts
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Fuzzmosis
Canada752 Posts
On August 26 2011 09:03 FoeHamr wrote: I don't understand. Your saying the DT is the equivalent of hellions or something but if that's your argument, your wrong. Your comparing a cheap and low-investment anti-light unit(workers happen to be light) to an expensive high-investment cloaked unit that you basically suicide in order to trade for workers. edit for clarification Again, from the start: A protoss whined he couldn't kill workers with units. I propsed DT's as harassive and defensive powerhouses that could do that very thing (Hiya Huk Vs. Nada! How's it going? What's that? DT's raped defensively and harassively?). Suddenly, I am now forced to prove my understanding of the game valuating a DT against a blue flame hellion because nerds are nerds and apparently I make fun of one Brotoss who says something terribly stupid, and I make fun of them all. | ||
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h0oTiS
United States101 Posts
You didn't even read what I said... -_-;;; I said if they have ONE spore and ONE spine, I need FOUR+ (that means 4 or more) to take it out. And I said moreso if the queen can transfuse. I wonder why that is? Oh, and you kill a turret, that's cute. I'm sure scans have nothing to do with anything, and I'm sure terrans only build 1 turret at a planetary fortress. why do you need 4 plus spine crawlers are you leaving 16 drones at your nat expand on xel naga i mean wtf its not that hard on any other map and maybe maybe you need 4 on xelnaga but you have plently of time to scout what your opponent is doing because you can send your ovy right away. Also pro tip roaches are good units and lings even will do the job if you have half a brain in your head on how to position them ex DERP I SEE BFLAME what do one get queens on ramp(ie creep spread) to block and leave one spine on low ground to pick hellions as they try(not sucsessful) to come up. Worst case your queens aren't positioned correctly and they get by whooops wait for roaches or just make 20 lings and have them at the top of your ramp and suprise the hellions as soon as they come up killing them instantly with minimal splash dammage taken your 400+ minerals ahead if you even just think about how to take hellions down. side note you have to have 1 spore 1 spine for dt well you say terran can make planitary fortress but that acutallly costs 6 scvs to make (ie no muel) not if you think about it terran can't just make plantiary foress every unless your willing to be behind although well defended hoping the other player just throws untis at you | ||
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babjengi
United States30 Posts
On August 26 2011 09:07 Fuzzmosis wrote: Do you not understand that my comments started because of some random Protoss pretending they couldn't do economic damage? Here's a hint: I agree that blue flames are extremely cost effective and no race has determined a fantastic way to prevent their low cost into high economic damage. If a terran has a PF the blue flames will still kill around 10 workers (and a protoss will kill either infinite or do the same thing as a smart player would do, and not fight against a position defended against them) I do like the random attacks you keep giving me on my understanding of the game. Are you going to explain why drops are hugely popular with Terrans only now? Because the dropships for terrans are a part of any of their play. Terran tech is completely streamlined. Rax > Factory > Starport, and they all share addons that instantly add additional tech to the building. Dropships serve more purposes than just dropping, and thus integrate seamlessly into the terran infrastructure. Not to mention MM dps is sufficient at clearing mineral lines quite easily, in addition to stimmed units being able to keep up with workers and pursue for maximum damage. Overlords you will ALWAYS have, so zerg drops are actually quite easy as well, and with the fact that it's simstarcraft at the front of a base that allows people to defend most zerg pushes, and considering the devastation that a nydus in the main can do, it's a wonder more zergs don't drop... As for toss... think of the units we have to drop and their efficiency at killing workers... We not only delay tech in order to build drop tech (robo time normally dedicated to building the only unquestionably worthwhile unit in the protoss army), but the units we actually have to drop are really expensive and don't kill all that quickly. It's high risk, low reward for toss drops. | ||
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