Although I'm a mostly terran user, I like to pick P against T. One of the most annoying strats that I always do poorly against when I'm playing a decent terran is the so-called "yangachi terran" (in Korean yangachi means something like "punk") and in English, I'm not sure if there is a term, but I'm sure you gosus know what I'm talking about.
The strat is to play normally until early/mid-game until the T safely secures natural, turtles with a few tank, turret mine then goes dropship + goli/tank to tank the expo on LT or any map with a cliff. Eventually three to four dropships (sometimes more) go around the map with vulture support to deny toss expos and in the meanwhile the Terran powers massively. Once he has 1/1 ups, he pushes out with a big blob.
Against newbies who just don't have confidence in their vulture micro, I can see how this is beat easily by expanding to mains, etc. However, against a good Terran I just am so annoyed by this strat (so annoyed that I never use it myself).
So...
What are the best counters?
And for terrans who like to use this strat, what is your biggest worry about counters by the toss?
i generally dont include gols in drops and generally not more than 2-3 ships, but the same general style. biggest problem is if you cant get your harass to do anything. put obs absolutely everywhere, cannon all your minlines, and keep a decent amount of units on your cliffs. usually want 2 + shuttles with speed upgrade to reinforce cliffs as well. if you stop his harass you have a normal pvt, with a bit of an advantage because he'll be investing units in harass and will get his 2nd nat later.
Yang a chi terran is counter by just countering his dropships. If he is not successful with those drops the protoss can exp safely. Just keep counting his dropships by scouting with obs and using 3+ shuttles. +_+. Go carriers. 케리어는 양아치테란한테 쥐약 ㅡㅡ;
lots of obs all around terran, and if possible inside too, so u can see him massing dropships.
either pick off dropships before they get to cliffs or have units rdy to ferry up and try and have an ht at every expo.
mains are easier, just 2 cannons, 2 on either side of minerals, and units closeby.
if u catch one 2 shuttle drop u have a huge adv... this strat might be annoying but its risky for the terran.
sometimes i even cover his dropship exit route with 2 cannons.
for example hes 6 im 12 on LT he has nat, i have nat and 3 main i have units in the center to pick off dropships flying though. I have units pumping at 3 main, and if hes making a few dropships and i can afford it i make a few cannons in the 9 main to catch any break out drops. spreading units across the map is key but u gotta be able to remass in the center again quickly if he tries to push.
I find this annoying as well. Hopefully you can scout him building more than one dropship ahead of time. From there, you should be able to see when he leaves base, get speed/range obs (as discussed in a recent thread) to monitor dropship movements and move army to cut them off ahead of time. Get closest expansions first because I think taking distant expansions (like basing at 12 when you're 6 o clock protoss vs 9 o clock terran) is playing into his hands. Many dropships, especially with goliaths are a large gas investment, which means he won't have as many tanks or generally as many fighting units as is possible. So you can afford to put units on your natural's cliff not to let him take it. Losing it is a huge set back. Teching to storm and getting archon/zeal/temp shuttles is a good counter.
The ultimate answer is high tech air units like carriers and arbiters which really rape drops. While his coping abilities are more limited because the gas cost of many dropships will restrict his upgrading and goli/tank numbers... quite noticeably I think.
I call it the load and go toss. Its a strange but working style of toss who constanly makes shutlles en has 4+ every time a batlle took place. You can basicly play like this it will not fail if you use your units and units in the shuttles in the right way and location. This kinda style doesn't work against a slow pusher with turets all over the place (you could still try but it's way too hard). But it will counter the kind of terran you describe.
Make sure your obs will see the drops coming, and have an equal number of shuttles, and preferably shuttle speed. Have storm, and a couple units reasy on your cliff(s) so that you buy yourself time to drops stuff. You could cannon your cliffs (I mean put cannons physically on the cliff, but that would be expensive).
Good map control, a few shuttles, and storm are the keys here. Storm is ridiculously effective against Terrans who don't space their units properly, and a dropship Terran is going to have all of his units in one blob when dropping. Beyond that, a few units and a couple of high templar can defend an expansion from a pretty damn big drop while still allowing you to keep your main army in good position to combat a push.
storm is good but watch out that you're not overteching, many shuttles + speed + storm is alot of units missing, always keep an eye on his army somehow with your observers and make sure you have the units to beat it straight up if he ever decided to move out
first of all see it coming so you can remember this thread and follow the (unusually high quality!) advice posted in it.. maybe observer sight range after you expand and use the observer in his base so you can see him building a starport/dropships or lots of turrets (if there are so many turrets that you can't manoeuver your observer, assume starport+ships, even if you are wrong the turrets hurt him so bad that you are still ahead)
some info from the terran point of view because i have nothing to add from the P side:
mind that you can get away with this tech (4 speed shuttles if you're gonna follow naz) because the terran's macro is getting hurt bad by building a starport / dropships possibly even goliaths
also any terran who is playing this style will be willing to sacrifice units to kill probes (i'm thinking vulture raids, dropped tanks killing some probes and dying right after)
these 2 reasons also mean you can get away with cannons, as your army size will still be good enough
I also kind of like the psy storm way because it's impossible to multitask terran so hard that you could slowpush and harass everywhere at the same time, which means that the terran will only start pushing much later. This means that he'll have to ignore slow pushing alltogether and attack the nada way (unsiege everything, attack move, siege everything, repeat) and the nada way is very weak against storm
however, I don't know if it's possible to secure your cliffs if you don't get multiple shuttles.. maybe you can get away with it by putting some goons on your cliff in advance and leaving your filled shuttle hovering over your cliff?
Agreed, but DO not make the mistake of going to quickly with the speed shuttle upgrade, make sure you get leg speed first. Even if you go more than 1 shuttle and use zeals in the shuttles, you will be at a severe disadvantage if he starts pushing out.
Many players will only go 2 dropship nada style, I don't believe this warrants getting speed shuttle becuase the major threat also includes vultures (he has so many options like ferry 8 vults + 4 tanks onto cliff, use tanks to take out cannons, use vultures to kill probes, double pronged attack on two expos, etc).
Don't get frustrated and waste all your units in a counterattack - you will die. Just try to keep 1-2 bases ahead of him and then make the switch (prefer arbiter becuase its less "timing" oriented [if you go say, 3 gate carrier without a CLEAR advantage the game is still for his taking [especially becuase he has ups + armory already, where he might have enough gas to build a sci facility and vessel]).
DO get Obs speed and monitor islands and his "half" side of the expansions (if you are 3 he is 6, patrol an obs between 9 main and top left island, etc).
cliff terrans are the easiest to beat ;d i dont even play toss but ive never really had a problem with it at all, same with island pvt. Gols suck period, just keep a few units on your cliff like 4 goons 2-4 zeals and then drop with like 2-3 shuttles or more withs peed if you feel like you need to and have obs ;d
i dont like this style. imo its just giving the toss free speed shuttles. off course if he doesnt see it coming hes fucked, but you wouldve probably owned him anyway if he doesnt see it coming.
first, i agree with grot the posts here are definitely
second, the thing that's really annoying about this strat is that unless i know it's coming, 2 dropships of 4 goli/2tank are on my cliff at the timing that i usually have only 1 shuttle of zeals and perhaps around 9 goons. this first drop is the killer for me-- if i can stop it, i know he is going yangachi and i can take another expo faster, prepare speed shuttles, get templars earlier than i would normally, etc. but if that first drop is a success, i'm basically screwed even before i've even fought a decent center fight, especially if the terran has vultures running all around. at least this is what i feel like the timing is 90% of the time.
third, when i see yangachi i get self-conscious about falling behind in upgrades and immediately throw down another forge early to upgrade... is this a bad idea?
fourth, if the terran has enough turrets up sometimes it's hard to get a sense of when he is going to switch to pure vult tank, so i also feel pressure to add gates.
so the priorities in my mind are:
1) stop the first two dropships 2) tech to templar or speed shuttle 3) add gates 4) upgrade 5) expand
When I do PvT, I play defensively, as in, I'll place 2 cannons around my exps so if it gets dropped or harassed, I'll have time to save it with my troops. If the Terran is going mass dropships, you don't have to take your natural, I sometimes just take the min only and incrases my Zeal to Goon ratio then expand at other mains.
Don't worry about the upgrades so much, him having 1/1 isn't the end of the world, just having his main and natural isn't enough for him to be able to get 2/2, having just 1 forge upgrading is enough.
Definitely put expanding ahead of that, forge + upgrade is already 250/100 which is basically an expand, that enables you to get +40 control over him in the same time that upgrade would have finished, much more important.
fuck i just wasted 35 minutes playing a fucking gay terran that turtled on islands i had to kill all my probes to get supply for carriers why do fags do that and it turns out he wasn't even there anymore he had tanks and turrets everywhere fucking peice of shit
I'm an imperfect player, much like you are probably. This helps me a lot. If I have a temp in the area, I storm him, and send (usually mostly zeals) to mop up.
I send the rest of my army (mostly goons)to try to get the ships returning to his main (your army should be central, and you should watch the general path of his leaving droppers). If you can kill his ships, even the empty one's returning, it greatly slows the time till he can drop again. In addition I also find that people don't watch their ships returning as closely as they watch them unloading. If his ships are already hurt from storm, sometimes you can get a BUNCH of them, while he is trying to micro his pathetic drop.
I prefer placing goons(in groups of 3-4) all over the map against droping terran and eventually catching his dropships while flying. Also building distant pylon early on other main is a good thing to do. Only problem is combined droping with vulture abuse. Building cannons and blocking entrances with buildings(so there is only a small passage) is always a good idea.
On March 16 2005 02:26 stimpack[pG] wrote: why build gols? u can hav vults surrounding your tanks wen you drop.
for cliffs u can bring a few gols to pick off shuttles.
Or bring a couple of scvs for turrets.
turrets are better, they don't require that you use extra supply to hold the cliff, unlike goliaths. also, goliaths can be stormed, turrets obviously cannot
Hmm... Fighting a terran like this is definitely difficult as Protoss. But I think the difficulty is really in restraining yourself. When you fight a turtle you have to somewhat act similar to a turtle. Don't get too worked up. Play the game you always do, but remember to be conservative in your play. I personally wouldn't throw down that second forge too early into the game because upgrades really won't help you as much in the early game as getting ahead in tech/containment. Though I've yet to play any seriously good Terran players that use this strategy (Thank God...), I've found a healthy amount of cannons to be the ultimate solution to impeding drops in my base. I'm not a terribly good player, but this is sort've how I play against and turtling dropship terran.
First of all, scouting is extremely important because you don't want him to take any expansions and if he does, you don't want him to be able to hold it without a significant investment which somewhat diminishes the value of the expansion. After fending off the initial drop (which is something everyone does his own way), keep a good amount of observers in the air to scout out what your opponent is doing. The point is to take over the map while containing him in his main and possibly his natural. Don't use excessive units for defense because you need to be harrassing him (even though it will cost you a couple of units to do so). Keep some Templar on cliffs and at your base to prevent from drops and use cannons at vital locations such as chokes, cliffs, and ideal drop locations. Templars can deal massive damage for little cost with their psi storm and cannons are just extremely effective at deterring dropships or at least making them alter their course. The general idea is, take your time, build a few nexuses, be a cannon-whore to discourage drops and set him back. I generally build about 6 cannons at each of my expansions and 1/2 cannon(s) or at least an observer at each location my opponent can possibly expand to. Many lower skilled terrans tend to panick when they find that drops will be ineffective so they either invest in costly wraiths, hoping that maybe it will help them bypass the cannons, or get careless and start neglecting their base defenses to invest in a more significant ground army and expansion attempts. As long as you have expansions and he doesn't, that gives you a definite production advantage and then you should be in more of a better situation to out-upgrade him and essentially, out-turtle him. You want him to waste an excessive amount of money both taking and holding every expansion he has. Be sure to attack any expansion attempts right away and prevent him from being able to just run one or two SCVs to build an expansion by keeping either cannons or military units at each expansion. Force him to spend money on a small army to fight his way through to each expansion and you should be fine. Play a solid, timed, and conservative game and you should win.
It's a mistake to rush things and risk spreading your forces too thin. Remember that if he's a turtle, he's stressing defense (as long as you're either attacking or making him know that you're in a position to), not taking over the whole map. Take your time. I know, it's a really long route and I personally hate having to wait till a guy starves himself out of minerals and leaves the game, but I've really found no other really effective option vs. a turtle terran simply because terrans make the absolute best turtles... =T
Oh, and you might want to try out some stuff with Arbiters (Stasis/Recall) and Dark Archon (Maelstrom) later in the game. It'll hamper any attack attempts by effectively dividing his force into two different attacks.
On March 18 2005 08:14 m3th wrote: Hmm... Fighting a terran like this is definitely difficult as Protoss. But I think the difficulty is really in restraining yourself. When you fight a turtle you have to somewhat act similar to a turtle. Don't get too worked up. Play the game you always do, but remember to be conservative in your play. I personally wouldn't throw down that second forge too early into the game because upgrades really won't help you as much in the early game as getting ahead in tech/containment. Though I've yet to play any seriously good Terran players that use this strategy (Thank God...), I've found a healthy amount of cannons to be the ultimate solution to impeding drops in my base. I'm not a terribly good player, but this is sort've how I play against and turtling dropship terran.
First of all, scouting is extremely important because you don't want him to take any expansions and if he does, you don't want him to be able to hold it without a significant investment which somewhat diminishes the value of the expansion. After fending off the initial drop (which is something everyone does his own way), keep a good amount of observers in the air to scout out what your opponent is doing. The point is to take over the map while containing him in his main and possibly his natural. Don't use excessive units for defense because you need to be harrassing him (even though it will cost you a couple of units to do so). Keep some Templar on cliffs and at your base to prevent from drops and use cannons at vital locations such as chokes, cliffs, and ideal drop locations. Templars can deal massive damage for little cost with their psi storm and cannons are just extremely effective at deterring dropships or at least making them alter their course. The general idea is, take your time, build a few nexuses, be a cannon-whore to discourage drops and set him back. I generally build about 6 cannons at each of my expansions and 1/2 cannon(s) or at least an observer at each location my opponent can possibly expand to. Many lower skilled terrans tend to panick when they find that drops will be ineffective so they either invest in costly wraiths, hoping that maybe it will help them bypass the cannons, or get careless and start neglecting their base defenses to invest in a more significant ground army and expansion attempts. As long as you have expansions and he doesn't, that gives you a definite production advantage and then you should be in more of a better situation to out-upgrade him and essentially, out-turtle him. You want him to waste an excessive amount of money both taking and holding every expansion he has. Be sure to attack any expansion attempts right away and prevent him from being able to just run one or two SCVs to build an expansion by keeping either cannons or military units at each expansion. Force him to spend money on a small army to fight his way through to each expansion and you should be fine. Play a solid, timed, and conservative game and you should win.
It's a mistake to rush things and risk spreading your forces too thin. Remember that if he's a turtle, he's stressing defense (as long as you're either attacking or making him know that you're in a position to), not taking over the whole map. Take your time. I know, it's a really long route and I personally hate having to wait till a guy starves himself out of minerals and leaves the game, but I've really found no other really effective option vs. a turtle terran simply because terrans make the absolute best turtles... =T
Oh, and you might want to try out some stuff with Arbiters (Stasis/Recall) and Dark Archon (Maelstrom) later in the game. It'll hamper any attack attempts by effectively dividing his force into two different attacks.
If you have no idea what you are talking about please STFU. Dark Archon doesnt work vs. terran. Building 6 cannons at a base is retarded. Everything you said just shows that you are a newbie... Anyway i usually like to take a few bases(nat. min only. maybe 1 other one) and get maybe 2 unupgraded speed shuttles and then fast tech to 2 stargate carriers... as that stops any drop cold. By the time they have enough dropships to do mass drops you should have maybe 2 carriers or something and it works well for me. You should be producing units out of like 5 gates too so they wont be able to attack you fast enough. The truth is that any build that involves expanding THEN getting drop after is extremely weak... u have to go dropships before expand to have a chance.
I only suggest turtling with shit like 6 cannons at a base because beating a good Terran (even a turtling Terran) at speed is very difficult as Toss... Maybe my Toss just sucks, but Terrans can just turtle so effectively with such little investment... I think DAs are fine against Terrans. I don't know how effective Maelstrom is (I've seen it used quite effectively vs. me when I was zerg...), but mind controlling a critical unit or two never brought me any bad results.... I think DAs are underused and underrated which is why I noted that he should "try some stuff" with them... even though I have a personal preference for arbiters (a little less godly than defilers). You make it sound like the Terran will do nothing except just turtle in his base and wait for his dropships. I suggested what I did because I know any good terran will put a shitload of pressure on you all throughout the game. You can't just quick tech without adequate defense because any good terran will abuse that fact. What's wrong with putting down a couple of cannons? 2 bunkers near your minerals and a turret wil run you 675 min. 4 cannons run you 600 + the 100 for the pylon if you don't already have one nearby to feed of of... Against someone that's going to drop on you, I don't think a little investment in static defense is a bad thing unless of course you're totally confident in your ability to guard every possible route to all of your bases and expansions... Hell, static defense is never a bad thing because it gives you defense without wasting supply. IMHO, fast-teching to carriers is a brilliant way to make yourself look like a total retard should he not play exactly as you want him to play... I say this because I've personally experienced the adverse results of fast teching because I thought the guy was going to turtle... Which brings me to what I was originally going to say.
"How on earth would you know that he's definitely going to turtle and go dropships?"
I suppose you can SUSPECT that he might if he's totally sealed off his base and stuff early game, but that doesn't necessarily make it reality...
I'd also like to add that building a good number of cannons vs. a turtler is not retarded at all... If it were T vs. T, you'd build turrets and bunkers, wouldn't you? What's the difference with building cannons at various places in the map? Defense is defense, even with the best offense, it's not something you can ignore because shit happens and your army might not get there in time. I can tell you first hand that I've caught plenty of people off guard with drops simply because of unlucky timing on their part and their lack of proper static defense let me decimate at least half their base (if not their entire base) before their units even got back. For me personally, 6 cannons in my main is an assurance that such a drop will never happen and even if it did, 6 cannons and a HT is more than enough to fend off most drops and would buy me time to get my units back to my bsae if I felt they couldn't. And of course I don't mean to build 6 cannons right away, that would be retarded, but increasing your defense little by little throughout the game as you find yourself with some minerals to spare is always a good thing in my opinion. But whatever, that's just the way I play and you can call me paranoid as hell for building excessive static defense, but I've just been caught with my pants down far, far, too many times...
m3th please stop posting in this thread, at least I think u are not a protoss player. What the hell if someone who need help reads your post and tries to implement it? ...he will probably lose... 1. Static defence isn't too good vs terran, because sieged tanks have quite a longer range than cannons and tear them apart on 3 shots. Also Dragoons are cheaper(in minerals) and do almost the same damage vs large units(dragoon 30 cooldown, cannon 22 = cannon shoots 4 times while dragoon 3, but you can upgrade your dragoons). 2. Carriers retarded? You see if the terran didn't exp too much this mostly means only one exp he can't defend well vs carriers because he invested a lot into drops. Carriers are best protoss anti-drop units and if u don't rush into them they are only to benefit. 3. DA?, Where the hell did u see DA in PvT, it's a total bullshit. Please don't build them unless you have an upper hand in the game. And u also said that u see them often in PvZ, well I don't know what replays you've been watching but I see them like in 1 game from 20.
On March 18 2005 22:20 m3th wrote: I only suggest turtling with shit like 6 cannons at a base because beating a good Terran (even a turtling Terran) at speed is very difficult as Toss...
-Hello Cannons! -Hello Siege Tanks! -I'm attacking ok? -Wtf I can't attack back ;(
Maybe my Toss just sucks, but Terrans can just turtle so effectively with such little investment... I think DAs are fine against Terrans. I don't know how effective Maelstrom is (I've seen it used quite effectively vs. me when I was zerg...),
Yes. Your toss does suck. DAs are useless. You don't see turtle Terran that go biomech do you?
but mind controlling a critical unit or two never brought me any bad results.... I think DAs are underused and underrated which is why I noted that he should "try some stuff" with them... even though I have a personal preference for arbiters (a little less godly than defilers).
No, it costed two dark templar, money for them, 4 supply, and the money it cost to research mc. DAs, like Valkyries, are underused and underrated because they fucking suck in most cases. The only time I see Valkyries used are TvTs on Valhalla and the only time I see DAs used are long PvZ.
You make it sound like the Terran will do nothing except just turtle in his base and wait for his dropships. I suggested what I did because I know any good terran will put a shitload of pressure on you all throughout the game.
With...gasp... DROPSHIPS.
You can't just quick tech without adequate defense because any good terran will abuse that fact. What's wrong with putting down a couple of cannons? 2 bunkers near your minerals and a turret wil run you 675 min.
Because Tanks roll cannons over on EVERY expansion except islands on Lost Temple. And I don't know who you've been playing, but in TvPs you don't build Bunkers by your Command Center.
4 cannons run you 600 + the 100 for the pylon if you don't already have one nearby to feed of of... Against someone that's going to drop on you, I don't think a little investment in static defense is a bad thing unless of course you're totally confident in your ability to guard every possible route to all of your bases and expansions... Hell, static defense is never a bad thing because it gives you defense without wasting supply.
Yes, but it wastes a shitlod of money. Would you rather have a new Nexus or a Pylon and two cannons?
IMHO, fast-teching to carriers is a brilliant way to make yourself look like a total retard should he not play exactly as you want him to play... I say this because I've personally experienced the adverse results of fast teching because I thought the guy was going to turtle... Which brings me to what I was originally going to say.
Carriers are always extremely strong against Terran. Cliff abuse>Goliaths A few observser/a few Corsair>Wraiths. Your experience was probably c6 level.
"How on earth would you know that he's definitely going to turtle and go dropships?"
I suppose you can SUSPECT that he might if he's totally sealed off his base and stuff early game, but that doesn't necessarily make it reality...
It's a better bet than him going Infantry so your pathetic Maelstrom will actually work.
[quote]I'd also like to add that building a good number of cannons vs. a turtler is not retarded at all... If it were T vs. T, you'd build turrets and bunkers, wouldn't you?[quote]
In TvTs I don't build Bunkers. And Cannons are so useless against Tanks on cliffs.
[quote]What's the difference with building cannons at various places in the map? Defense is defense, even with the best offense, it's not something you can ignore because shit happens and your army might not get there in time.[/quote]
It's a waste of money to something that won't even counter-attack a Tank.
[quote]I can tell you first hand that I've caught plenty of people off guard with drops simply because of unlucky timing on their part and their lack of proper static defense let me decimate at least half their base (if not their entire base) before their units even got back.[/quote]
Hey let's play a game! It's called the WHO FUCKING CARES GAME.
[quote]For me personally, 6 cannons in my main is an assurance that such a drop will never happen and even if it did, 6 cannons and a HT is more than enough to fend off most drops and would buy me time to get my units back to my bsae if I felt they couldn't.[/quote]
They won't do shit against Tanks. You've wasted 900 minerals on things that can't attack back.
[quote]And of course I don't mean to build 6 cannons right away, that would be retarded, but increasing your defense little by little throughout the game as you find yourself with some minerals to spare is always a good thing in my opinion. But whatever, that's just the way I play and you can call me paranoid as hell for building excessive static defense, but I've just been caught with my pants down far, far, too many times...[/QUOTE]
Maybe in some of your losses, the loss was due to your WASTEFULNESS in your making static defense instead of units. WIth 900 minerals for six cannons, you could make 9 reavers or expand twice or make six gates instead.
My head's getting big haha. I was just stating the facts. All players who know something about Starcraft knows that wasting money on six cannons per expo PvT is stupid.
On March 18 2005 22:20 m3th wrote: I only suggest turtling with shit like 6 cannons at a base because beating a good Terran (even a turtling Terran) at speed is very difficult as Toss... Maybe my Toss just sucks, but Terrans can just turtle so effectively with such little investment... I think DAs are fine against Terrans. I don't know how effective Maelstrom is (I've seen it used quite effectively vs. me when I was zerg...), but mind controlling a critical unit or two never brought me any bad results.... I think DAs are underused and underrated which is why I noted that he should "try some stuff" with them... even though I have a personal preference for arbiters (a little less godly than defilers). You make it sound like the Terran will do nothing except just turtle in his base and wait for his dropships. I suggested what I did because I know any good terran will put a shitload of pressure on you all throughout the game. You can't just quick tech without adequate defense because any good terran will abuse that fact. What's wrong with putting down a couple of cannons? 2 bunkers near your minerals and a turret wil run you 675 min. 4 cannons run you 600 + the 100 for the pylon if you don't already have one nearby to feed of of... Against someone that's going to drop on you, I don't think a little investment in static defense is a bad thing unless of course you're totally confident in your ability to guard every possible route to all of your bases and expansions... Hell, static defense is never a bad thing because it gives you defense without wasting supply. IMHO, fast-teching to carriers is a brilliant way to make yourself look like a total retard should he not play exactly as you want him to play... I say this because I've personally experienced the adverse results of fast teching because I thought the guy was going to turtle... Which brings me to what I was originally going to say.
"How on earth would you know that he's definitely going to turtle and go dropships?"
I suppose you can SUSPECT that he might if he's totally sealed off his base and stuff early game, but that doesn't necessarily make it reality...
I'd also like to add that building a good number of cannons vs. a turtler is not retarded at all... If it were T vs. T, you'd build turrets and bunkers, wouldn't you? What's the difference with building cannons at various places in the map? Defense is defense, even with the best offense, it's not something you can ignore because shit happens and your army might not get there in time. I can tell you first hand that I've caught plenty of people off guard with drops simply because of unlucky timing on their part and their lack of proper static defense let me decimate at least half their base (if not their entire base) before their units even got back. For me personally, 6 cannons in my main is an assurance that such a drop will never happen and even if it did, 6 cannons and a HT is more than enough to fend off most drops and would buy me time to get my units back to my bsae if I felt they couldn't. And of course I don't mean to build 6 cannons right away, that would be retarded, but increasing your defense little by little throughout the game as you find yourself with some minerals to spare is always a good thing in my opinion. But whatever, that's just the way I play and you can call me paranoid as hell for building excessive static defense, but I've just been caught with my pants down far, far, too many times...
basicly you're telling froz that if he were a decent terran he'd totally lose vs cannon making protosses?
god.you really have no idea what you're talking about.Even a drunken androide would never consider doing this. Evanthebouncy pisses on you.
OMG! I just woke up and read this thread! I then proceeded to ROFL! Ha ha ha! I can't stop laughing! Oh God! My stomach hurts! Aha ha ha ha!
Damn, what a way to start the day~
As a frequent 양아치테란 (yangachi terran) player, I truthfully say that I hate: - Carriers!!! The ultimate turtle punisher! omg so ownage! - The occasional DT harassment - Arbiter players freezing up my mechies - Shuttles reinforcing goons/lots on expoed cliffs (when dropped) - Meeting a very large resistance when pushing out </3
Also, the protoss tends to deny all my expansion attempts, or to CONSTANTLY harass my expos.
I wanted to add that some protoss players make a small dropship raiding anti-air force. That's annoying too as it forces me to retreat or pack goliaths, which is a definitely worser choice for drops than tanks (tanks can be microed easier, and take down goons! :D).
Keep oberservers up so you can always track the drop ships movement. Intercepting them mid flight with goons means gg. Storm is really good at cleaning up terran drops, as long as you see them coming. Really, it's all about having observers sitting around the map so you know exactly what he's doing.
On March 19 2005 08:28 Empyrean wrote: Maybe in some of your losses, the loss was due to your WASTEFULNESS in your making static defense instead of units. WIth 900 minerals for six cannons, you could make 9 reavers or expand twice or make six gates instead.
I'd suggest you get out of this topic.
reaver = 200 mins. you could have 4 and a half reavs
On March 19 2005 08:28 Empyrean wrote: Maybe in some of your losses, the loss was due to your WASTEFULNESS in your making static defense instead of units. WIth 900 minerals for six cannons, you could make 9 reavers or expand twice or make six gates instead.
I'd suggest you get out of this topic.
reaver = 200 mins. you could have 4 and a half reavs
more like 3 reavers cuz of scrarab cost and yes... m3th is definately the biggest retard i've ever seen post... If i could play m3th i could probably make 6 cannons/Base , get darkarchons, and not use carrier and still win XD
On March 19 2005 08:28 Empyrean wrote: Maybe in some of your losses, the loss was due to your WASTEFULNESS in your making static defense instead of units. WIth 900 minerals for six cannons, you could make 9 reavers or expand twice or make six gates instead.
I'd suggest you get out of this topic.
reaver = 200 mins. you could have 4 and a half reavs
I meant Zealots but I was thinking of a pvp game I just played where I just enough money for a reaver and killed the Biomech Terran's last infantry. oops more like 3 reavers cuz of scrarab cost and yes... m3th is definately the biggest retard i've ever seen post... If i could play m3th i could probably make 6 cannons/Base , get darkarchons, and not use carrier and still win XD
On March 18 2005 08:14 m3th wrote: I am a newbie and need to post les...wait no, I need to stop posting in Strategy forum. But don't mind me, I like flaming one of the top 3 players in the US becuase I am a decent terran.
Uhjoo is not Xellos. Maelstrom does shit against Mechanical units. You do not build bunkers in TvT. Reavers are not good past earlymidgame. Be wary of Terran coming out and killing you - his units are mobile, just more money on turrets - the money he spends on turrets + dropships = you expand, play 3 or 4 base against his 2 - that extra money allows you to go carriers.
Always remember storm is your friend, just make sure you know what they are doing with obs everywhere, once you see it, 2 zeals 2 goons 1 temp on a cliff, the rest of your units outisde his base not threatening but not too far back. Have 1-2 obs in key points to know which way he sends them, 1-2 shuttles is all u need, storm it to high heaven. (an extra temp on low ground for back up if needed) 4-6 storms does so much damage, his dropships get owned, his units are half dead, your back up kills it all)
On March 18 2005 08:14 m3th wrote: I am a newbie and need to post les...wait no, I need to stop posting in Strategy forum. But don't mind me, I like flaming one of the top 3 players in the US becuase I am a decent terran.
On May 14 2005 12:16 Legionnaire wrote: Exalted, reavers own, do not blasphemy.
This is why we all love Leg! :p
I've gotta say it would be nice if you could mc a full dropship or two once you know terran is going for mass drops, other ways previously stated are just more solid though.
On March 21 2005 13:15 Refrain[FriZ] wrote: Guys... isn't uhjoo = Xellos?
Why is he asking us for advice?
Haha! He's too godly in drop as a terran that when he play toss he dosnt know how to counter it!
Annyways, an odd build would be add some 3 or so sairs, they can scout drpoships and attack them, which slow them down. And when the T get careless with his drops and drop all unit at 1 spot, you can Web them pretty nicly :S (i know its hard to pull off so dont flam plz :p)
EPT
