Protoss From Many Angles - Page 3
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 14 2011 22:29 nihlon wrote: I was expecting pictures when I clicked this thread. I'm dissapointed. How has zerg stronger t1 than protoss? roaches are cost effective against zlots/sentries (lololol) and are decent against stalkers assuming proper micro/ling support. They also cost 75/25 and can be made at a ridiculous pace. There's a reason why in pvz, we have to go into sharking mode, because we cannot directly confront zerg's army unless they've been drone whoring like mad or we're doing something ridiculously all-in ish. | ||
Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
Forcefields can be used to amplify the effective strength of Gateway units quite considerably. Players like MC have shown time and time again how good use of Forcefield can allow Gateway units to be quite devastating well past the time a 4 Gate shows up. Any discussion on making Gateway units stronger needs to consider carefully how Sentries will affect the change. I think the suggestion to increase Sentry starting energy and Forcefield's cost both to 75 in conjunction with Gateway units that are stronger in their own right is a good one, but regardless, it's an area to watch. Likewise, aggressive upgrading can make Gateway units quite deadly for a significant amount of time. A number of players (Tyler in particular comes to mind) have shown some great examples of how powerful a fast double Forge build can be, especially with easy access to the Twilight Council for Charge/Blink. I'd be extremely concerned about the implications of making a timing like that significantly stronger. Again, this isn't to say "this is a terrible idea", just something to keep in mind when talking about re-balancing something as fundamental as T1 units. | ||
Kujawa
United States137 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 14 2011 16:45 Zanez.smarty wrote: Alright, I am going to need to go off on a bit of a rant here, because it seems there is a lot of misinformation about Protoss, the KA change, Colossi and their builds. + Show Spoiler + I play Protoss exclusively, watch streams, read strategies and keep a close eye on the pro-gaming scene. I have written a guide or two in my day, and I consider myself pretty well versed in the game. First, I will get this out of the way before people start freaking out. I don't mind the KA change in the next patch. While I don't believe KA was too powerful, I DO think that it allowed the Protoss race to accomplish something that was probably unintended by the developers: It allowed them to directly convert Vespene Gas into damage on demand. There was little skill involved, and no race had an even comparable ability. I am not here to discuss the suggested change (+15 energy or increased regen speed, etc), but rather here to discuss an issue with the Protoss Race that the removal of KA will amplify. The problem I refer to is, of course, the Colossus. The Colossus is considered by many to be OP, simply because of it's nature... it is an a-move unit that does incredible splash damage with minimal micro or baby-sitting. Compare it to it's old counterpart, the Reaver, that required babysitting with shuttles, it was vulnerable and was able to create some wonderful and creative plays. It's ease of use and it's incredible power has brought it to the point where it is almost b-lined in just about every game. Virtually every game requires Colossi to be acquired relatively quickly, and to be pushed out for just about the whole game, while Stalkers and occasionally Zealots are used for no purpose other than to keep shots off the Colossi. However Zealots and Stalkers themselves are good for little else in the late game. In SC1, Zealots and Goons were able to be used well into the late game, because they complemented each other so well. They were able to eat a lot of hits, as well as pack a punch of damage. In SC2, Zealots and Stalkers alone are useless. Unless they have backup of Colossus, HT or sometimes Void Rays, they are nothing but cannon fodder, and melt to almost any force a person can throw at them. Stalkers were supposed to replace Dragoons, but they gave up some of the range and firepower in exchange for increased mobility; a factor that doesn't affect play in giant 'ball vs ball' games. Zealots were capable of packing a punch in BW, but in SC2, even with Charge, Zealots get obliterated by Hydras, Roaches, MM&M and Helions. before they can do any damage. Gateway builds are now obsolete, and require "hero" units, otherwise they get rolled all over. Because these units are so damn weak, they require a unit that is so damn powerful to balance out the Protoss forces, and in almost all cases, this unit is the Colossus. This makes it difficult to nerf the Colossus. So would it make sense to nerf the Colossus in exchange for Gateway unit buffs? Well no, as it turns out. Gateway units are tricky to buff for two reasons: 4 Gate and Force Field. 4 Gate is an extremely powerful build as it is, and so, any power increase to Zealots and Stalkers (no matter how small) could, and would, throw the build way out of balance. Force Field makes Gateway units powerful enough in the early game (by blocking retreats and splitting armies) to survive. It would be extremely difficult for Protoss to manage in the early game without Sentries, and a buff to Gateway units could be too powerful. However Sentries and Force Field are not enough to swing Zealots and Stalkers into a position of power in the late game, unless they are backed up by Colossi or sometimes HT. It would seem that the only way to buff Zealots and Stalkers would need to be through Charge and Blink. These two abilities in their current state are unable to provide Gateway builds with any significant firepower in the late game. Blink becomes used as a harass tool, and a way of allowing Stalkers to occasionally frontload some damage or take some extra hits, but Charge is difficult to use effectively as much more than a timing attack, because Zealots die so quickly to stim and roaches or hydras in the late game. Since Zealots and Stalkers do such little damage, Colossi need to do so much. Since Cols do so much damage, they are weak and can't take many hits, and are vulnerable to air, but Stalkers are good at that, and hit air. These facts lead to a painful conclusion: The Colossus/Stalker Death Ball. You can mix other things in it, like HT or Void Rays, but when it comes down to it, the Colossus and Stalkers are core... with Colossus being the bottom line. This comes down to Protoss being imbalanced at different times in the game. Early game (past the 4 gate) they tend to be too weak. They need to abuse Force Field on their ramps or block off retreat paths in order to defend, and rarely are they able to push. But in the late game, they are rolling in T3 power, throwing the balance in the other direction, often making them too powerful. This is of course, leading to a very important point... Options. Since the Protoss Death Ball is so damn powerful, Protoss players are forced to use it in just about every game. Every build transitions to Colossus at some point so that the Death Ball can be acquired. This leads to predictable and boring games. Wouldn't it be nice to see some late game Protoss plays involving Carriers, Chargelot flanks, and Archon play, Rather than just Death Ball every time? Another potential build that is often disregarded are Gateway centric builds. These involve Gateway units, including the HT. But there are problems with the build in general. I already mentioned how Zealots and Stalkers are weak in the mid-late game. While Charge and Blink increase this lifespan to a degree, they cannot be reliably used for long. This means that it is important to get HT and Storm/KA before Zealots and Stalkers begin to fail and FF stops being effective. This is a very small window at best, and leaves the Protoss vulnerable to timing attacks. Another issue with the Gateway build is that it lacks detection, forcing a Robotics Facility... and once you are there, you may as well go all the way and get Colossi. The loss of KA makes this option even less desirable than it already was, pushing yet more people into the already overused Colossus builds. It seems what is happening more and more, is that Protoss are being forced to play the same game (or a very similar one) every time. Terran and Zerg have several options into the late game that are used in a variety of ways and gotten in a variety of orders. Not all may be viable, but since Beta the game has shifted to and away from numerous builds, while the Protoss has simply evolved more efficient ways of using the exact same unit. Zerg use: Roach-Hydra-Infestor, Ling-Baneling-Muta, Broodlord-Hydra, etc... Terran can use: Bioball, Marine-tank, Marine-Mech, Heavy Mech, Heavy Air, etc... Protoss can use: Stalker Colossus, Blink Stalker Colossus, Voidray Colossus, Colossus HT... All colossus centric, leading to a similar Death Ball. I have a few suggestions. I won't go into too many specifics or numbers, because specifics tend to cause balance issues, and I am no mathematician, but plz, bear with me. I am more trying to get across the ideas, rather than the specific buffs. 1. Colossus Nerfed. Simple. I am not sure how this would be done exactly, but they should be changed in some way. The Protoss need to stop relying on it as the core of every single build. Potentially reducing their AoE (in beta, they used to do strong sustained single target damage. 2. Charge readjusted to allow Zealots to put out some firepower before dieing. My suggestion would be for Charging Zealots to get an armor bonus, or a chance for ranged units to miss them, and/or adding a substantial cleave to the first hit after charging. This would allow Zealots to reach their targets without getting melted. But more importantly, it would allow for a little AoE to exist before HT or Cols. This would add micro to the game on both sides (spreads and specific targets) 3. Observers come available from the Nexus upon the construction of Robotics Facility, Stargate or Twilight Council. Zerg and Terran access to mobile detection (scan and overseer) becomes available at T2 regardless of the build you choose. Observers coming from the Robotics Facility is similar to Zerg having Overseer upgrade available when you build a Spire. It is only available if you work with a specific tech tree. This reduces the ability to have "build order defeats", that arise simply because you chose to go for early blink when a cloaked Banshee flies into your base. 4. Force Field costs 75 Energy, but Sentries spawn with 75 energy. This would give force field a longer pseudo-cooldown, but doesn't prevent you from warping in a Sentry for emergency defense. It also makes Force Field require more thought to use effectively, and makes it so baiting force fields is more effective. It also allows for Guardian Shield to be used on an emergency summon to boost Zealot and Stalker performance on defense. 5. Give Carriers and Interceptors some base armor on their shields, and make it so Interceptors do not get trapped in Vortex. Carriers are rarely used, because they are vulnerable to focus fire and interceptors are weak enough to be picked off. If you compare them to the Battlecruiser, the Carrier's ONLY advantage is it's speed. If it had some armor on it's shields it would make Carriers slightly more appealing. Also, a Mothership with Carriers is risky, because if you Vortex anywhere nearby, ALL your interceptors could be sucked into the Vortex. This makes them nothing more than sitting ducks, and unable attack and to take advantage of your own Vortex. Long, I know :S + Show Spoiler + Here are some basic points. 1. KA removal is necessary, but unpopular because it forces Protoss players into the already overused Colossus builds. 2. Protoss is balanced around UP gateway units and the OP Colossus, making them weak in early game and strong in late game. 3. Because of this, Protoss has very few options in late game play. Other builds have some problems that need addressing so we have more options. Thoughts? You spent a lot of time and energy on this post and deserve a well thought out response. I'm not a game designer, nor do I work for Blizzard. I'm not qualified to offer any serious buff/nerf ideas. But in response to your proposed changes, I will give you a patron's opinion. 1. RE: Colossus - + Show Spoiler + The Battlecruiser's ground damage was nerfed because 'once there was a critical mass there was just no way to fight them on the ground.' Now granted, the BC has an air attack too, but we're seeing a similar situation with Colossus. 4+ Colossus and you win as long as you can solve the "kill Viking/Corrupter/Muta" problem which Protoss seem to be extremely capable of with Stargates. Nerf Idea: Is it really just as simple as nerfing it's ground damage versus a certain armor class? 2. RE: Charge - + Show Spoiler + I'm not sure why people think Charge is UP. It turns the Zealot into a 150HP Speedling that attacks twice per hit for 16 damage. It may not be incredible while charging into a wall of machine guns, but it works just fine in other scenarios (Tank killer). I say we wait and see what this Patch 1.3 "free hit" buff does for them. 3. RE: Observer -> Nexus - NO! + Show Spoiler + I'm really hesitant to mess with the observer. It is really strong. If anyone gets caught without sufficient detection they die. The OC, in early game, is not a sufficient method of detection. If that is all you have a DT rush or Cloaked Banshee rush can kill you. The Overseer is lair-tech and is relatively expensive. There is still a timing window to kill Zerg. The Robotics facility is a super structure. The observer is remarkably inexpensive and really, really powerful. But, if Blizzard determines that Protoss's mobile detection is too weak, or too vulnerable, let the Hallucinated observer detect but make its energy cost higher, like max sentry energy. 4: RE: Force Fields -+ Show Spoiler + This is also another tricky area. It allows Protoss to survive in early game without massing units, but lets admit it, it is the best for this purpose. A bunker will die to mass units (even with repair, because of FF) and a Zerg will die without mass units. A Protoss can still die to mass units with FF if he misses his FF's or gets caught 'not looking.' They are super strong both defensively, and offensively, but do require good micro to be effective. The offensive ramp blocking is something that needs looking at though, imo. 5. RE: Carrier - + Show Spoiler + I say leave the carriers alone. Protoss already has air superiority with the Stargate. Carriers do not need a buff, imo. Phoniex are better than Vikings AND Mutas (a flying counter to Muta in both speed and firepower?! Holy cow that is awesome. And they are spellcasters. Yeah, I say we leave the Carrier alone. SIDE NOTE: + Show Spoiler + I'm really glad they fixed Vortex. That spell was so broken. | ||
Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
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k10forgotten
Brazil260 Posts
TvP: marines and tanks. TvT: marines and tanks. TvZ: guess what? marines and tanks. Ok. That's a generalization. Of course, you can [and may need to] make other unit combinations, but this one is the most powerful generic combo I've ever seen. Against some combinations (like stalker+colossi), you just need to add other units (like vikings) and that's it. My point is: your cry for the Protoss' stall is not alone, and not for them alone. I don't know the state of the Zerg, but Terran's army is pretty much the same in every match (a little differences here and there, but it's almost the same). Apparentely, the whole game is in stall (as GSL has shown me). | ||
Zes
United States17 Posts
For example, a terran whos going 1-1-1 can put 2 bunkers at the front and be safe from any early pressure if he pulls off to repair, but then once his banshee rush fails, or whatever, he can salvage the bunkers and get the full amount back. making static defense..not static. I think that cannons should have a damage decrease, but give us the ability to move them, somehow. maybe after the cybernetic's core cannons can move, or somthing. Nothing early game, we don't want cannon rushing to be more effective. I would like to see someway for us to move cannons around. It would make early game more survivable. | ||
Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
Forge unlocked by gateway (eliminates cannon cheese that makes for shitty games both from the standpoint of a player and a spectator) Warpgate research increased by 20 seconds. I think the 4 gate is a touch too strong in PvZ. This would allow Z's to have more time to prepare. Additionally, a 20 second increase would allow PvP to include a broader range of build orders. I don't think this would affect PvT much, assuming the Stim research time is also increased. And how about these changes (buffs) to the archon? Archon - Unaffected by Fungal Growth and Concussive Shells - An additional cost of 75 minerals added to Archon Warp. - Additional upgrade added to the Templar Archives. For 200/200 and a build time of 75 seconds, the archon's range increases from 2 to 4. - Additional upgrade added to the Templar Archives. For 100/100 and a build time of 30 seconds, the Archon Warp time decreases from 12 seconds to 6 seconds and allows warping-in archons to be moved. | ||
sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
If you got rid of warpgates ... Templar nerf would be unnecessary Stalkers could be more powerful Colossi could be less powerful (atm balanced because of weaker gateway units) Marauders could be less powerful Immortals could come out of gateways Warp prisms (would be just shuttles now) would have more hp Dark Shrine could warp in faster PvP would be more interesting PvT would be more interesting Mech builds would be more viable, due to much weaker protoss early game. Races will be easier to balance with maps. At the moment, long rush distance just makes 4 warp gate more obnoxious and will be used more often (Robo and Stargate builds would be too weak in comparison). Due to warpgate you can't "balance" PvP with bigger maps, it will still be the same or worse, and so you will continue to have really uninteresting pvp. The bigger the map, the more powerful warpgate gets. | ||
Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
On March 14 2011 22:29 nihlon wrote: I was expecting pictures when I clicked this thread. I'm dissapointed. How has zerg stronger t1 than protoss? speed roach > gateway units | ||
da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 14 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote: Some other suggested changes: Forge unlocked by gateway (eliminates cannon cheese that makes for shitty games both from the standpoint of a player and a spectator) Warpgate research increased by 20 seconds. I think the 4 gate is a touch too strong in PvZ. This would allow Z's to have more time to prepare. Additionally, a 20 second increase would allow PvP to include a broader range of build orders. I don't think this would affect PvT much, assuming the Stim research time is also increased. And how about these changes (buffs) to the archon? Archon - Unaffected by Fungal Growth and Concussive Shells - An additional cost of 75 minerals added to Archon Warp. - Additional upgrade added to the Templar Archives. For 200/200 and a build time of 75 seconds, the archon's range increases from 2 to 4. - Additional upgrade added to the Templar Archives. For 100/100 and a build time of 30 seconds, the Archon Warp time decreases from 12 seconds to 6 seconds and allows warping-in archons to be moved. the archon buffs are intersting, but no way in hell would anyone get two upgrades just for a single unit. if you combine both into a single upgrade, that would be better. however, blizzard has stated multiple times that they merely want the archon to serve a very specific niche of giving hts another use after their energy is used up, instead of a more staple role in bw (esp in pvz). | ||
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 14 2011 23:37 Crashburn wrote: Some other suggested changes: Forge unlocked by gateway (eliminates cannon cheese that makes for shitty games both from the standpoint of a player and a spectator) Warpgate research increased by 20 seconds. I think the 4 gate is a touch too strong in PvZ. This would allow Z's to have more time to prepare. Additionally, a 20 second increase would allow PvP to include a broader range of build orders. I don't think this would affect PvT much, assuming the Stim research time is also increased. And how about these changes (buffs) to the archon? Archon - Unaffected by Fungal Growth and Concussive Shells - An additional cost of 75 minerals added to Archon Warp. - Additional upgrade added to the Templar Archives. For 200/200 and a build time of 75 seconds, the archon's range increases from 2 to 4. - Additional upgrade added to the Templar Archives. For 100/100 and a build time of 30 seconds, the Archon Warp time decreases from 12 seconds to 6 seconds and allows warping-in archons to be moved. I think Passive constnat stuffs are boring something like this, Archon Auto-Cast Ability Psionic Surge Cast when The Archon attacks, causes Archon's movement speed to increase, removes Fungal Growth and Concussive Shell effect, and increase attack range by 1. for 10 seconds/ This effect will stack up to 3 times and will refresh itself. this way it keeps the Archon interesting and you try to keep the buff up throughout battle. or even make it attack your own units so that Archons can shake free of Slow effects. or go into battle with the buff stacked. on another note Archons that are merging can be pushed around already though | ||
xsevR
United States324 Posts
I feel like buffing gateway units is probably a decent solution, it just needs to be balanced with warpgate research (the research takes longer, has an additional tech requirement, etc.) From the first time I played Protoss I thought the warpgate mechanic was a bit strange... there's no tradeoff to having gateways and the research is literally the first thing you get in the game. Going further, I think the Collosus needs a change that make it viable/nonviable depending on map factors,which would cause the other two tech paths to be used. As a siege unit some strategy should be required to use it effectively, not just a required reaction. So in general I guess: Nerf Collosi, nerf warpgate, buff gateway/gateway units. | ||
b_unnies
3579 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 14 2011 23:52 Blasterion wrote: I think Passive constnat stuffs are boring something like this, Archon Auto-Cast Ability Psionic Surge Cast when The Archon attacks, causes Archon's movement speed to increase, removes Fungal Growth and Concussive Shell effect, and increase attack range by 1. for 10 seconds/ This effect will stack up to 3 times and will refresh itself. this way it keeps the Archon interesting and you try to keep the buff up throughout battle. or even make it attack your own units so that Archons can shake free of Slow effects. or go into battle with the buff stacked. on another note Archons that are merging can be pushed around already though lol wc3 much? -___- On March 15 2011 00:03 b_unnies wrote: zeal/stalks being undepowered again goes back to the point where tons of protoss were feeling back during the roach buff patch where roach gets +2 atk per upgrade while stalks only get +1 atk per upgrade. if you want to buff zeal/stalks, make ground upgrades stronger i think blizzard's reasoning for this is that zealots get +2 per upgrade, dts and immortals get +5 (and carriers +16). stalkers aren't meant to have a dps role. | ||
lcl
United Kingdom119 Posts
For what it's worth I feel that almost every aspect of starcraft 2 could be fixed with the removal or reduction of Colossus range and the reintroduction of Hydra speed or by leaving the game alone entirely ^^ | ||
TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
Do blink stalkers and chargelots deal with speed roaches? That was one way I compensated back when I played P. It's not really fair to give one unit a t2 upgrade and not the other. | ||
dementrio
678 Posts
Imagine the game to be perfectly balanced using this logic, so that at any point in the game the ball of each race can beat the ball of every other race. What would this lead to? Every game would become a PvP, where eventually one huge engament will give the win to the player who was lucky enough to have the better position. The way to "fix" the colossus imo is not by addressing the colossus itself, rather how protoss can sit on 2 or 3 bases and get an invincible army with the other races not being able to do anything about it. This can be done in a number of different ways, that can range from (off the top of my head) increasing the supply cap to giving other races more viable midgame harassment options to decreasing the amount of resources at each expansion. I'd like to see these kind of ideas discussed and tried rather than having every interesting unit in the game be slowly nerfed to death. | ||
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