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On March 11 2011 01:21 1Eris1 wrote:
I don't think these units can be compared.
Banshees may be better overall than a DT, but DT's are far stronger vs zerg for example.
Can you elaborate? The main advantage of a banshee seems to me that they can fly away. If you warp in a dt, harass with it, it will like 90% of the times die. Banshee in the contrary, can just fly away en get repaired.
Loved the discussion and the mocking of incontrol and tyler at SotG!
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On March 11 2011 01:21 1Eris1 wrote:
I don't think these units can be compared.
Banshees may be better overall than a DT, but DT's are far stronger vs zerg for example.
Not really, if terran sneaks banshees in early enough and snipes off your queens, its basically over. DTs seem to come a bit slower, and if Terran/Protss looks like he's teching, any Zerg should rush to Lair in time to deal with DTs
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On March 11 2011 01:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 01:04 rastaban wrote:On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar  I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with. As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony  That's a weird way of looking at it though. I deal with dark templar harrass as often as I do with banshee harrass (but perhaps only because I play 2v2 as well as 1v1). If a Terran says dark templar are worse because they've never had to play against them, then he's not really making an informed decision. As a Terran player, you'd rather have the banshee. As a Protoss player, I'd rather have the banshee (and not because of Nony... because I have experience dealing with both the banshee and the dark templar). I was just amused by the OPs breakdown of each unit, where it seemed like he gave the pros of the dark templar and the cons of the banshee, when in reality the banshee is superior to the dark templar overall. Heck, every unit has cons and could be made to look like a bad unit, but one should be objective and consider the pros and cons of each.
LOL, yeah the OP's write up seems pretty clearly biased.
I think I am in the minority though as a terran saying Banshees are better. The reason i think is that Terran is actually pretty good at countering themselves. Banshees have limited cloak, turrets detect and shoot them, vikings have very long range, our basic unit shoots air. All this leads to Terran not having as hard a time vs Banshees as other races. On the other hand, vs DTs to move out you pretty much need ravens, which can be fed backed, and our turrets detect but don't shoot DTs. I have played a lot as other races so I know how it feels to have banshees attack you so I value them highly, but if I only played Terran I might miss out on that and view them as less than DTs since I always have more options.
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sacrifice robo tech vs. switch add-ons I already have on buildings I'm gonna get anyways, that's a tough one.
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DTs are good for a sneak attack. That's all they're good for. Banshees can be used for a sneak attack or when used with Marine+Raven can be used to just a move a Protoss that doesn't have Colossi+Phoenix+Zealot combo.
DTs are obviously better if you can catch your opponent off guard, but I'd say Banshees are better if they plan for your attack or if you want to engage straight up.
I think OP is a little terran biased by not mentioning that you need 350 gas in tech structures (shrine+council) which is the same cost of building a starport and researching cloak, and a starport with a tech lab remains useful even after the enemy has detection as banshees still work well against detection in many cases (a lot more than archon at least) and ravens with pdd and auto turret harass are nice too.
Personally I think both are about equal, however one thing everyone can agree on is that both are a lot more scary than burrowed roaches 
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On March 11 2011 01:07 Le BucheRON wrote:I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
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On March 11 2011 01:27 arterian wrote:DTs are good for a sneak attack. That's all they're good for. Banshees can be used for a sneak attack or when used with Marine+Raven can be used to just a move a Protoss that doesn't have Colossi+Phoenix+Zealot combo. DTs are obviously better if you can catch your opponent off guard, but I'd say Banshees are better if they plan for your attack or if you want to engage straight up. I think OP is a little terran biased by not mentioning that you need 350 gas in tech structures (shrine+council) which is the same cost of building a starport and researching cloak, and a starport with a tech lab remains useful even after the enemy has detection as banshees still work well against detection in many cases (a lot more than archon at least) and ravens with pdd and auto turret harass are nice too. Personally I think both are about equal, however one thing everyone can agree on is that both are a lot more scary than burrowed roaches
But none of them holds a candle to Catz burrowed infestors, 4 shotting 20 SCVs thats 5 SCVs a hit  .
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I think we better open new poll
banshees - can chose if they wanna be invisible or not
dts - can't chose : (
b - requires most common terran building in order to build starport
d - requires dark shrine
b - you can research a lot of stuff in tech addon / can switch it with other buildings
d - you can't research anything
etc
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Banshees defninitely. Using DTs effectively in the early game essentially requires your opponent to not scout or be aggressive at all, or even build a single paranoid turret.
Seriously, every time I DT rush (or even DT fast-expo) a terran, I just sit there thinking, "He could kill me right now. He could kill me right now. How hasn't he killed me RIGHT NOW?" And then I walk into his base, past his bioball that could have killed me at any time, and he hasn't built a single turret. In addition, the instant you're spotted (a lucky scan) you're basically done. You can't transition out of early DTs - the hideously expensive dark shrine does not provide any added value. so you're just flat behind. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a terran go for fast banshees, get scouted, and then just use the same starport to early drop instead. DTs are nice against anybody without detection in the late game, though.
By contrast, banshee rushing is safe-ish (except against the 4gate), easy to transition out of, and has been previously mentioned, even if the protoss gets detection up, there are cliffs to abuse, and the banshee can basically run home. Sending the DT into an opponent's base is basically kissing it goodbye.
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On March 11 2011 01:25 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 01:21 1Eris1 wrote:
I don't think these units can be compared.
Banshees may be better overall than a DT, but DT's are far stronger vs zerg for example. Not really, if terran sneaks banshees in early enough and snipes off your queens, its basically over. DTs seem to come a bit slower, and if Terran/Protss looks like he's teching, any Zerg should rush to Lair in time to deal with DTs
Im a masters zerg, banshees are a joke nowadays. DT remain strong harassing units throughout the game.
You can just look at the unit, you have to look at things like (you can multiple DT's at once, on different parts of the map, etc)
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flying DTs with ranged attack!
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On March 11 2011 01:26 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 01:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 11 2011 01:04 rastaban wrote:On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with. As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony That's a weird way of looking at it though. I deal with dark templar harrass as often as I do with banshee harrass (but perhaps only because I play 2v2 as well as 1v1). If a Terran says dark templar are worse because they've never had to play against them, then he's not really making an informed decision. As a Terran player, you'd rather have the banshee. As a Protoss player, I'd rather have the banshee (and not because of Nony... because I have experience dealing with both the banshee and the dark templar). I was just amused by the OPs breakdown of each unit, where it seemed like he gave the pros of the dark templar and the cons of the banshee, when in reality the banshee is superior to the dark templar overall. Heck, every unit has cons and could be made to look like a bad unit, but one should be objective and consider the pros and cons of each. LOL, yeah the OP's write up seems pretty clearly biased. I think I am in the minority though as a terran saying Banshees are better. The reason i think is that Terran is actually pretty good at countering themselves. Banshees have limited cloak, turrets detect and shoot them, vikings have very long range, our basic unit shoots air. All this leads to Terran not having as hard a time vs Banshees as other races. On the other hand, vs DTs to move out you pretty much need ravens, which can be fed backed, and our turrets detect but don't shoot DTs. I have played a lot as other races so I know how it feels to have banshees attack you so I value them highly, but if I only played Terran I might miss out on that and view them as less than DTs since I always have more options.
I think those are pretty salient points, though the threat of any cloaked unit in general usually gives that person more map control than usual.
I think an interesting point that some people haven't looked at yet is the fact that it's generally impractical to go dark templar because of the tech route. Starports are a natural (and even necessary, one might argue) transition for Terran, and even banshee cloak isn't necessary to make them useful for worker harrass (or to make them good in armies).
However, the dark templar tech path is longer, doesn't allow for any other transitions (other templar tech? how much gas do we have here?), and possibly the most important of all: stops you from getting robo tech (read as: no colossus). In other words, you're pretty much stuck on gateway units now, whereas Terran has unlocked most of his entire tech tree.
Therefore, I think that the very decision to go banshees or dark templar greatly influences the entire game for the Protoss and the Terran. It's almost helpful for the Terran, whereas it's incredibly risky for the Protoss.
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~I would have to go for DT's
I will early game both early game, DT & Banshee asfighting units and mid to late game. For this discussion I will limit myself to TvP
Early game
Its true that the Banshee flys (hard denying that). This makes it easier for the Banshee to do his harassment. You will always get some kills swith the banshee making it a extreem viable early game harassment unit. But personally I think its the Protoss game to lose , not the Terran's game to win. Meaning, no matter how well the Terran plays his banshee harass, it will only be as viable as the Protoss makes mistakes.
The DT's are ground units, making it harder for them to get to the mineral line of the main, or the natural. It is easier for the Terran to stop the DT's with one or two forward placed turrets.
Even if the DT's are easier to stop, they pin down the opponent much more. As long as there are DT's on the field, Terran cant move out without a Raven (wich takes a very long time to tech to and make). This gives the Terran could move out with scans, but they will dry out when the Protoss keeps sending one DT at the army. When there are no more scans there is basicly no more Terran army.
Obviously the Banshee pins down the Protoss as well. Bet instead of threatening the Protoss army it can solely threaten the mineral line, making it much easier for the Protoss to move out when it wants to. Plus its much easier for Protoss to get out stable detection.
Conclusion, yes the banshee has more harass possibility in the early game but the DT can have great strategical value for the Protoss when it wants to tech to a certain unit comp. (gateway +2+2 would be a possible next step)
Unit comp
The Banshee works better in the Terran army then the DT does in the Protoss army. Personally I feel that it are both HARASS units. Making there role in the army secundair. One might say that when the Banshee harass doesnt work Terran can still use them in there main army. But as said earlier the Protoss has more time to tech after the DT harassment. Also, there is always the archon. Even if there are DT's left after the initial harass, they can always be made into Archons and have somewhat of a role in the Protoss army.
Mid to late game
This is why I mostly prefer the DT over the Banshee. later in the game Protoss only has to throw donw a Dark shrine (granted it will take forever to build). After Dark shrine is finished, whenever the Protoss feels like it he can imediatly throw down 3/4/5 DT's and send them to mutible location to harass. And the harassment at this point in the game is scarifyingly good. If the Terran would want to harass mid to late game, it needs to invest a lot of minerals in making the Banshees then it needs to be with the army to make the army strong enough, so the protoss will more likely know they are there. The DT's only cost Protoss the minerals when he really wants to use the DT's. Another argument why I find the DT's late game so much better is that the Banshees are not permenantly cloacked. they are easliy spoted when moving over the map, or they need to cloack way earlier, shortening there harassment time significantly. The DT's on the other hand walk to the base being cloacked and are almost impoosible to detect until they start destroying some SCV's.
Again I would really have to go with the DT's
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Personally, I'd take banshees over DTs without giving it a second thought. The bloody things fly, and can be a right pain in the arse if handled right even if they're unable to cloak. DTs are just a scissors-paper-stone unit.
Or, to put it another way, my reaction to taking heavy damage from banshees is usually a case of "my opponent did that well, that was hard to handle", heavy damage from DTs always feels like "I am such a nub, one overseer and that would have been 100% different".
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On March 11 2011 01:42 Deckkie wrote:~I would have to go for DT's I will early game both early game, DT & Banshee asfighting units and mid to late game. For this discussion I will limit myself to TvP + Show Spoiler +Early game
Its true that the Banshee flys (hard denying that). This makes it easier for the Banshee to do his harassment. You will always get some kills swith the banshee making it a extreem viable early game harassment unit. But personally I think its the Protoss game to lose , not the Terran's game to win. Meaning, no matter how well the Terran plays his banshee harass, it will only be as viable as the Protoss makes mistakes.
The DT's are ground units, making it harder for them to get to the mineral line of the main, or the natural. It is easier for the Terran to stop the DT's with one or two forward placed turrets.
Even if the DT's are easier to stop, they pin down the opponent much more. As long as there are DT's on the field, Terran cant move out without a Raven (wich takes a very long time to tech to and make). This gives the Terran could move out with scans, but they will dry out when the Protoss keeps sending one DT at the army. When there are no more scans there is basicly no more Terran army.
Obviously the Banshee pins down the Protoss as well. Bet instead of threatening the Protoss army it can solely threaten the mineral line, making it much easier for the Protoss to move out when it wants to. Plus its much easier for Protoss to get out stable detection.
Conclusion, yes the banshee has more harass possibility in the early game but the DT can have great strategical value for the Protoss when it wants to tech to a certain unit comp. (gateway +2+2 would be a possible next step)
Unit comp
The Banshee works better in the Terran army then the DT does in the Protoss army. Personally I feel that it are both HARASS units. Making there role in the army secundair. One might say that when the Banshee harass doesnt work Terran can still use them in there main army. But as said earlier the Protoss has more time to tech after the DT harassment. Also, there is always the archon. Even if there are DT's left after the initial harass, they can always be made into Archons and have somewhat of a role in the Protoss army.
Mid to late game
This is why I mostly prefer the DT over the Banshee. later in the game Protoss only has to throw donw a Dark shrine (granted it will take forever to build). After Dark shrine is finished, whenever the Protoss feels like it he can imediatly throw down 3/4/5 DT's and send them to mutible location to harass. And the harassment at this point in the game is scarifyingly good. If the Terran would want to harass mid to late game, it needs to invest a lot of minerals in making the Banshees then it needs to be with the army to make the army strong enough, so the protoss will more likely know they are there. The DT's only cost Protoss the minerals when he really wants to use the DT's. Another argument why I find the DT's late game so much better is that the Banshees are not permenantly cloacked. they are easliy spoted when moving over the map, or they need to cloack way earlier, shortening there harassment time significantly. The DT's on the other hand walk to the base being cloacked and are almost impoosible to detect until they start destroying some SCV's. Again I would really have to go with the DT's
Your problem is that, in a TvP, if the Terran goes cloaked banshees and the Protoss goes dark templar, the Terran will win every time because the Protoss won't have a robo for observers, and he's not going to spend 450 minerals on a forge and two cannons. The banshees will kill the Protoss long before the Protoss can attack. Furthermore, The Terran can scan/ scout the Protoss's base more easily than the other way around, therefore making it easier to stop a dark templar harrass than a banshee harrass.
And yes, even though cloak eventually runs out for the banshees, there will be more than enough time to kill probes, some buildings, and gather intel that would let the Terran perfectly counter Protoss's all-in dark templar rush. He could just build a raven...
There won't be a mid-to-late game.
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On March 11 2011 01:11 Bleb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 01:04 rastaban wrote:On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with. As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony can you explain to me why you prefer dealing with banshees over dts? especially as terran banshees outrange marines can be used on cliffs / edges of base I'm not trolling I'm just honestly shocked by so many ppl prefering dealing with banshees
Because banshee can only be created at a certain timing. Pass that timing, it's not logical to keep the techlab on starport since you need to pump viking and medivac as much as possible. And after a certain timing, protoss and zerg has such good mobile detection that it's not worth to get banshee anymore. 2 warpin stalker or 1,2 queen can deal with banshee harassment easily with observer/overseer, while a turret or 15 scv can't deal with a sneaky dt.
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Well if we're basing this discussion on the legos, banshee>>>dt
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I dont really care which one, but zerg needs at least one cloaked unit :/
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On March 11 2011 01:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 01:07 Le BucheRON wrote:- Created from the most common Protoss Building I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment. youre missing the point. its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready . also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research . seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement. think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time.
In other words:
-What are you talking about?
-Does this sound feasible to you?
-Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech?
-Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)?
-Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
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On March 11 2011 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 01:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 01:07 Le BucheRON wrote:- Created from the most common Protoss Building I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment. youre missing the point. its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready . also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research . seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement. think people. think. To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? - Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is? Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
i dont even want to get into the DT vs Banshee what is better discussion. i just wanted to point out a post that complains about something he didnt get.
(btw how about thinking about whole games and not only "banshee rush vs dt rush what is better!!!!111")
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EPT
