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On March 11 2011 02:40 TimeSpiral wrote:They are both fantastically good. It's actually very hard to choose.
==================================================Disclaimer - I'm assuming both players are at least competent and know common usage tactics for each respective unit. As an opener (rush)
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+ Show Spoiler +Dark Templar Rush - if it goes unscouted, Protoss can just outright effectively win.
• Many Terran openers will not have an ebay and at best one scan.
• A 1 rax FE will regen scans a little faster.
• Critical structures can be permanently stopped from building by the DT. So, if there is no ebay, and no starport, you cannot create detection beyond scans.
• The DT is faster than any unit Terran has at this point in the game (barring a stim or helion rush).
• Protoss has almost no army, and most likely only two gateways. Templar tech tree is already primarily complete. Transition into HTs are viable.
Cloaked Banshee Rush - if it goes unscouted, Terran can get a massive lead. It will rarely outright win the game.
• Robo openers are extremely popular for Protoss right now. Some Protoss rush strategies do not include a robo (4gate, 3gate+blink, VR rush, Phoenix).
• A robo facility cannot be interrupted by a banshee once it begins to warp in.
• observers are very inexpensive and can be c-boosted.
• The banshee can fly but cannot outrun stalkers.
As an opener, the DT rush wins.
The DT is more potent in that if the opponent is not prepared their chances of recovering are almost impossible. It is basically a free win. It is risky, because Protoss takes a serious hit to early game army size and if planning a robo-tech or stargate mid game has to construct some new tech buildings.
The Banshee rush is also very potent but will be neutralized, guaranteed, by the warping in of a Robo Fac the moment the banshee is spotted. Both tech rushes require significant investment, but the DT tech is slightly shorter. The Banshee rush is less potent in the sense that if the opponent is unprepared, they can become prepared during the attack and there is nothing the banshee can do about it.
--------------------+ Show Spoiler +The banshee wins.
The banshee is a better combat unit in mid-game as part of an army composition, and is more common but cannot reliably be used for map control. The speed and perma-cloak feature of the DT makes it much more useful for map control, and expansion harass, but is almost completely ineffective as a combat unit because of scans, EMP, and/or the Raven.
---------------------------------+ Show Spoiler +The DT wins.
Its speed and perma-cloak attribute really shines in late and extreme late game scenarios where the opponents are very spread out and detection may become an issue.
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They are both wonderfully powerful units. They both shine in certain aspects of the game. They can both be countered and will both cause major damage as a rush play if not scouted or blind countered. For those looking for a play that is essentially a free BO win, the DT is better, for players looking for an opener than can secure a lead, or possibly a huge lead, the Banshee is better. I hope you guys found my analysis insightful!
For the record, I voted for Banshee because I do not like relying on BO wins all that much. I'd rather have a unit that can help me create an advantage, with a little less risk, but will not just win the game.
For those saying the Banshee rush is not as "all-in" as the DT rush, I'm not sure I completely agree. If the Protoss is going three gate, or even four gate, they can warp in a robo bay and attack. The Terran who rushed to banshee will have exactly nothing by the time the first banshee pops (maybe a few marines, probably a bunker). This can be punished really hard. Both teams take massive damage.
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Speaking from a zerg point of view, once you're in the midgame, banshees and DTs become almost inneffective since several Lair tech units can deal with both Banshees and DTs.
To me the early game is the only real dangerous time to see either of these units, and Banshees are 10x harder to deal with as Zerg. If you haven't made a 3rd queen and creep-connected your bases, its basically over.
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after listening to that conversation on sotg i realized how lucky protoss is. Dt's for life.
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No opinion, I don't like this argument at all. They both do what they are meant to do well, and fit into their race well.
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lol you barely included shit about the banshee you are obviously biased. it does sick damage and DTs cant 1 hit scvs if they are ahead on armor upgrades. Banshees can own up marines and hold their own against queens and stalkers. Banshee openings are also standard which says a lot.
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On March 11 2011 02:55 Zorkmid wrote:
Speaking from a zerg point of view, once you're in the midgame, banshees and DTs become almost inneffective since several Lair tech units can deal with both Banshees and DTs.
To me the early game is the only real dangerous time to see either of these units, and Banshees are 10x harder to deal with as Zerg. If you haven't made a 3rd queen and creep-connected your bases, its basically over.
Banshee and DTs are good in all stages of the game. They can still hit critical structures/workers and cause zerg players to lose. I'm sure you've seen it countless time.
Anyways, I voted for Banshee because they can become a standard unit in your army even if detection is in play they still have a large amount of dps and you can micro banshee to be even better.
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On March 11 2011 03:08 MuTT wrote:
lol you barely included shit about the banshee you are obviously biased. it does sick damage and DTs cant 1 hit scvs if they are ahead on armor upgrades. Banshees can own up marines and hold their own against queens and stalkers. Banshee openings are also standard which says a lot.
+3 armour scvs take 47 damage from a dt, they have 45 life, watareyousmoking.jpg
apples are so op they are shiny, oranges suck
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On March 11 2011 02:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 02:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 11 2011 02:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 11 2011 01:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 01:07 Le BucheRON wrote:- Created from the most common Protoss Building I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment. youre missing the point. its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready . also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research . seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement. think people. think. To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? - Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is? Think, people. Think. and you are missing the point again. its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say. Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee. dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production. that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is. Dark templar harrass isn't nearly as effective in the mid-to-late game, because your opponent will have detection. It doesn't even matter if you make a dark templar from each of your 8 gateways (which is 1000 minerals and 1000 gas, by the way), because they'll be nullified by turrets or cannons or spore crawlers (or actual detecting units). The dark templar's main asset is its ability to cloak, and once that's nullified, it doesn't matter how many you produce. It would be more helpful to transition into units that have range or specialize in other areas (like those who counter whatever unit your opponent is making). The fact that you can make a lot of one unit is pointless if the unit is obejctively countered (in this case, by detection). The problem here is that dark templar tech doesn't transition into anything except for other gateway units. That means no colossi, no void rays, etc. Protoss is stuck if they go dark templar and can't win. However, even if the banshee harrass is stopped, Terran has a bio tree, mech tree, and air tree that they've opened up. Switch a few add-ons and start production!
I see the argument. But even if Terran has Detection at every base (I guess he will have some scans at that point either way) Protoss can splitt the DT's over different bases. Terran doesnt have anti ground defences at every base. With the insane DPS of the DT there will definatly be damage. ANd I think most of the time it will be cost effective This is actually one of the main arguements PainUser has.
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wow. this thread actually exists now?
I predict 200 pages and full troll attendance by all the usual suspects.
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Banshees are 100x better than DTs in a direct comparison.
The ONLY thing DTs have over banshees is that they don't need energy to cloak, other than that, banshees are a better unit to have every time.
Better range, flying, stackability, more hp, easier to tech to, less gas cost, still useful even if detection is available.
I swear the only people who prefer DTs over banshees are Terran players, simply because they don't realize the true awesome of the unit.
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On March 11 2011 03:08 GeeseHoward wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 02:55 Zorkmid wrote:
Speaking from a zerg point of view, once you're in the midgame, banshees and DTs become almost inneffective since several Lair tech units can deal with both Banshees and DTs.
To me the early game is the only real dangerous time to see either of these units, and Banshees are 10x harder to deal with as Zerg. If you haven't made a 3rd queen and creep-connected your bases, its basically over. Banshee and DTs are good in all stages of the game. They can still hit critical structures/workers and cause zerg players to lose. I'm sure you've seen it countless time. Anyways, I voted for Banshee because they can become a standard unit in your army even if detection is in play they still have a large amount of dps and you can micro banshee to be even better.
Agreed, DTs can be good late game, but that's only if I've fucked up and not scouted the twilight council (this usually makes me think DTs, cause I rarely go mutas, therefore blink is not coming)
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I can't believe people are arguing that DTs are good late game when they are nullified by a single turret in the mineral line.
I've won games by opening DTs where I thought "well, it's not that guys fault he doesn't have detection since he had no idea what I was doing."
I've also won games 25 minutes in because I notice that my opponent didn't build a single raven or turret anywhere on the map. This is almost always PvT although sometimes Zergs are guilty of this as well.
Even against Terran late game I'll still build a cannon at each of my mineral lines just in case he decides to mix it up with Banshees or a blue flame drop.
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Good players shouldn't lose to DT openings, just watch oGsMC vs IMMVP in the GSTL. MVP has 1 turret and the DTs get completely shut down. MC is so far behind by then that it's gg.
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You forgot that DT Shrine is dead-end tech with a dead end unit. Starport + Tech Lab could mean anything, plus Banshees are great additions to an army. That and Banshees with no detection = GG. DTs and no detection, just scan once and build an Eng Bay. Win the game.
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On March 11 2011 03:10 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 02:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 11 2011 02:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 11 2011 02:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 11 2011 01:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 11 2011 01:07 Le BucheRON wrote:- Created from the most common Protoss Building I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment. youre missing the point. its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready . also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research . seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement. think people. think. To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? - Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is? Think, people. Think. and you are missing the point again. its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say. Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee. dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production. that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is. Dark templar harrass isn't nearly as effective in the mid-to-late game, because your opponent will have detection. It doesn't even matter if you make a dark templar from each of your 8 gateways (which is 1000 minerals and 1000 gas, by the way), because they'll be nullified by turrets or cannons or spore crawlers (or actual detecting units). The dark templar's main asset is its ability to cloak, and once that's nullified, it doesn't matter how many you produce. It would be more helpful to transition into units that have range or specialize in other areas (like those who counter whatever unit your opponent is making). The fact that you can make a lot of one unit is pointless if the unit is obejctively countered (in this case, by detection). The problem here is that dark templar tech doesn't transition into anything except for other gateway units. That means no colossi, no void rays, etc. Protoss is stuck if they go dark templar and can't win. However, even if the banshee harrass is stopped, Terran has a bio tree, mech tree, and air tree that they've opened up. Switch a few add-ons and start production! I see the argument. But even if Terran has Detection at every base (I guess he will have some scans at that point either way) Protoss can splitt the DT's over different bases. Terran doesnt have anti ground defences at every base. With the insane DPS of the DT there will definatly be damage. ANd I think most of the time it will be cost effective This is actually one of the main arguements PainUser has.
One turret and three marines (or one marauder) in every mineral line (or a PF, obviously), and dark templar are completely nullified for harrassing mineral lines. Completely nullified. I'm a Protoss player and I wish dark templar were as versatile as the banshee (or at least not dead-end tech). I understand their limitations and only use them when I think I can finish off the game with dark templar.
And again, we can't overlook the fact that dark templar is a dead end tech, whereas banshees open up all of the tech paths that Terran have to offer. You can't just go dark templar, find out that it fails, and easily transition into colossi or void rays. Going dark templar after all tech is already set up is only useful if you've somehow eliminated the detection that your opponent should already have at every base. When I get a third or fourth base, I'm throwing down two or three cannons in decent locations around my Nexus so that banshee harrass will be harder, but dark templar harrass will be impossible. Melee attack vs. ranged attack matters a lot.
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In my opinion the banshee is the superior unit. However, in the lategame you aren't going to have a ton of starports which can suddenly make banshees but the toss will have a lot of warpgates. I think the strength of the DT lies in that toss can just make a few and go back to what they were doing before without too much issue.
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If Terran had DT instead of Banshee they would be massive overpowered. If Terran had any melee units, then they would be much stronger.
Imagine a TvZ where the Terran had DT. You can even uncloak them for this example. The units that are good against DT (hydra/roach) get killed by marines while the units that are good against marines (baneling) do very poorly against DT.
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On March 11 2011 04:51 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
If Terran had DT instead of Banshee they would be massive overpowered. If Terran had any melee units, then they would be much stronger.
Imagine a TvZ where the Terran had DT. You can even uncloak them for this example. The units that are good against DT (hydra/roach) get killed by marines while the units that are good against marines (baneling) do very poorly against DT.
Why are melee units better than ranged units? You can't kite with melee units. Are you assuming you can tank damage with dark templar? lol
We Protoss will give you the dark templar if Terran gives us the marauder, k? 
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On March 11 2011 04:51 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
If Terran had DT instead of Banshee they would be massive overpowered. If Terran had any melee units, then they would be much stronger.
Imagine a TvZ where the Terran had DT. You can even uncloak them for this example. The units that are good against DT (hydra/roach) get killed by marines while the units that are good against marines (baneling) do very poorly against DT.
I disagree strongly. Terran's strength lies in being able to kite infinitely. What's the point of a unit that can't do that? They'd get destroyed instantly because Zerg/Protoss metagame has adapted to being strong enough to (sometimes) compete against the kiting. You always see an Obs follow a lategame Toss army, but Ravens are very rare. DTs are only useful because Terran are very lazy with dedicated detection because their macro mechanic is a get out of jail free card.
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EPT
