EPTBanshee versus Dark Templar [Extended Serious] - Page 8
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
On March 10 2011 20:42 Zelniq wrote: i'd take lurker over both of those Zing!!! although ppl who didnt play bw prob dont know wat lurkers are so here are some examples i doubt dts and banshees can compare to the power of lurkers | ||
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ki11z0ne
United States427 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Overall banshees though because they're a great combat unit as well and can often escape when detected. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On March 11 2011 02:09 Lightswarm wrote: i doubt dts and banshees can compare to the power of lurkers I think lurkers would suck without dark swarm. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On March 11 2011 02:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: and you are missing the point again. its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say. Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee. It's very risky for Protoss to go dark templar, whereas if a Terran goes banshee, it inevitably unlocks most of his tech tree on the way there. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On March 11 2011 02:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee. dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production. that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Your problem is that, in a TvP, if the Terran goes cloaked banshees and the Protoss goes dark templar, the Terran will win every time because the Protoss won't have a robo for observers, and he's not going to spend 450 minerals on a forge and two cannons. The banshees will kill the Protoss long before the Protoss can attack. Furthermore, The Terran can scan/ scout the Protoss's base more easily than the other way around, therefore making it easier to stop a dark templar harrass than a banshee harrass. And yes, even though cloak eventually runs out for the banshees, there will be more than enough time to kill probes, some buildings, and gather intel that would let the Terran perfectly counter Protoss's all-in dark templar rush. He could just build a raven... There won't be a mid-to-late game. I think if you read a little more carefully, you will see that my strongest arguments ly in the mid to late game. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Yes the Dark Shrine might be seen as a waste right then, but so would the banshee's cloak resource have been. The cloak is 200/200 with the time 110 and Dark Shrine is 100/250 with time 100. Seems pretty even to me.. The Twilight Council basically opens up alot of choices for toss, and can't really be seen as a waste. I mean common, Charge, blink and HT.... If the game goes to mid-late 99% of the toss players will go for HT's anyway. | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
On March 10 2011 21:00 Bagi wrote: Hey guys, zealot or zergling? Siege tank or colossus? Apple or orange? exactly how I feel about the "issue". zergling, siege tank, orange. Banshee. but does it really matter? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On March 11 2011 02:17 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production. that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is. Dark templar harrass isn't nearly as effective in the mid-to-late game, because your opponent will have detection. It doesn't even matter if you make a dark templar from each of your 8 gateways (which is 1000 minerals and 1000 gas, by the way), because they'll be nullified by turrets or cannons or spore crawlers (or actual detecting units). The dark templar's main asset is its ability to cloak, and once that's nullified, it doesn't matter how many you produce. It would be more helpful to transition into units that have range or specialize in other areas (like those who counter whatever unit your opponent is making). The fact that you can make a lot of one unit is pointless if the unit is obejctively countered (in this case, by detection). The problem here is that dark templar tech doesn't transition into anything except for other gateway units. That means no colossi, no void rays, etc. Protoss is stuck if they go dark templar and can't win. However, even if the banshee harrass is stopped, Terran has a bio tree, mech tree, and air tree that they've opened up. Switch a few add-ons and start production! | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
================================================== Disclaimer - I'm assuming both players are at least competent and know common usage tactics for each respective unit. As an opener (rush) ------------------------------------ + Show Spoiler + Dark Templar Rush - if it goes unscouted, Protoss can just outright effectively win. • Many Terran openers will not have an ebay and at best one scan. • A 1 rax FE will regen scans a little faster. • Critical structures can be permanently stopped from building by the DT. So, if there is no ebay, and no starport, you cannot create detection beyond scans. • The DT is faster than any unit Terran has at this point in the game (barring a stim or helion rush). • Protoss has almost no army, and most likely only two gateways. Templar tech tree is already primarily complete. Transition into HTs are viable. Cloaked Banshee Rush - if it goes unscouted, Terran can get a massive lead. It will rarely outright win the game. • Robo openers are extremely popular for Protoss right now. Some Protoss rush strategies do not include a robo (4gate, 3gate+blink, VR rush, Phoenix). • A robo facility cannot be interrupted by a banshee once it begins to warp in. • observers are very inexpensive and can be c-boosted. • The banshee can fly but cannot outrun stalkers. Opener rush strategy conclusion + Show Spoiler + As an opener, the DT rush wins. The DT is more potent in that if the opponent is not prepared their chances of recovering are almost impossible. It is basically a free win. It is risky, because Protoss takes a serious hit to early game army size and if planning a robo-tech or stargate mid game has to construct some new tech buildings. The Banshee rush is also very potent but will be neutralized, guaranteed, by the warping in of a Robo Fac the moment the banshee is spotted. Both tech rushes require significant investment, but the DT tech is slightly shorter. The Banshee rush is less potent in the sense that if the opponent is unprepared, they can become prepared during the attack and there is nothing the banshee can do about it. Mid Game -------------------- + Show Spoiler + The banshee wins. The banshee is a better combat unit in mid-game as part of an army composition, and is more common but cannot reliably be used for map control. The speed and perma-cloak feature of the DT makes it much more useful for map control, and expansion harass, but is almost completely ineffective as a combat unit because of scans, EMP, and/or the Raven. Late and end game --------------------------------- + Show Spoiler + The DT wins. Its speed and perma-cloak attribute really shines in late and extreme late game scenarios where the opponents are very spread out and detection may become an issue. Conclusion ---------------------- They are both wonderfully powerful units. They both shine in certain aspects of the game. They can both be countered and will both cause major damage as a rush play if not scouted or blind countered. For those looking for a play that is essentially a free BO win, the DT is better, for players looking for an opener than can secure a lead, or possibly a huge lead, the Banshee is better. I hope you guys found my analysis insightful! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
On March 11 2011 02:26 Deckkie wrote: I think if you read a little more carefully, you will see that my strongest arguments ly in the mid to late game. Check out my response to BeMannerDuPenner (the post two above this one) as to why I don't see dark templar as very viable at that point in time. I do have to go now, but I'm glad I got to have this conversation with you guys  | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On March 10 2011 20:22 coddan wrote: I think your pros and cons aren't very fair. You only list the good things about the DT, while you list several of the bad things about the banshee. Why would you list Startport+Tech Lab as something bad, when it's way more handicapping to tech to Dark Srhine? my first problem with this post as well... very intellectually dishonest representation of the two. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 11 2011 01:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is? Think, people. Think. It seems you have little experience in lategame Protoss, but having 6 gateways is extremely common on 2 or 3 bases. It isn't common to have 6 tech lab Starports at any time. Point is that you're going to build gateways anyways, mineral only buildings that can warp-in any gateway unit you have the tech for. If you go 4 port banshee or 6 port banshee you have no choice but to continue doing that untill you win or lose, since you don't have the infrastructure to build anything else. If you somehow go heavy DT from your gateways and it isn't succesful you can always spend your next round of warp-in on different units. Personally, I like DT's more, but that's a personal preference. Primarily I like them in combination with the warp-in mechanic since you can choose to have them NOW when you deem them useful. Banshees might be more useful in direct comparison, but DT tech is a lot more flexible to me. You scout a push without Raven? Warp-in some DT's for defense. Push with a Raven? Warp in zealots instead or send DT's to counter attack your opponent's bases. If you go heavy Starport and your opponent goes phoenixes, how are you going to use those Starports differently? | ||
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
Overall, DTs are probably a bit better vs. T and banshees are pretty clearly better vs. P. Against zerg... I'd probably favor DTs, but I could see an argument the other way. | ||
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Azide
Canada566 Posts
On March 10 2011 20:29 BetterFasterStronger wrote: I'm a terran player and i am ashamed that my terran brother would give up his Banshee. A Banshee with Cloak is guaranteed to kill something because a Observer is actually slower then a banshee so you can move from base to base faster then the protoss can if he goes 1 observer. If the protoss didn't go robo tech he loses. If you go DT you are praying that the terran does not have any scans saved up or a safe missle turrent down (which i put one down at the 10 minute mark nearly every game unless i see a immortal or another tech path. If you go DT you open up Zealots Stalkers and DT if you go banshee you open up a entire tech tree. Except Thors, BC, Ghosts. Your banshee opening will also give you a Raven. Which is the counter to DT Theres really no logical argument for a DT being better then a Banshee You win this thread sir. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Zeri
United States773 Posts
On March 11 2011 02:46 crms wrote: my first problem with this post as well... very intellectually dishonest representation of the two. Yup. "made from most common protoss building" I guess thats technically true but it sounds like saying: Yea I ALWAYS have a dark shrine in my build. its pretty much a given. like a pylon bro. | ||
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