I do understand both arguments, but just pure statistics it is way easier to transition out of Banshees without being way behind.
Every time any Protoss goes DT's and does no damage you are pretty far behind. Banshees you are also behind, I realize that, but you are not really far behind, you just teched a little faster then normal and spent little more money on 2 Banshees/cloak. It isn't near as much of a investment as DT's are.
The fact that Banhsees are ranged and flying is a huge bonus too. Pretty easy to get them away without loosing them.
I think your pros and cons aren't very fair. You only list the good things about the DT, while you list several of the bad things about the banshee. Why would you list Startport+Tech Lab as something bad, when it's way more handicapping to tech to Dark Srhine?
dts man its so easy just build 5 cannoons and have a few units back and you hold off a banshee dts fucking unstoppable, sure you could leave back 1 marine per 6 dts and kill them all but, man, thats just too much effort.
All you have to do is watch GSL and see how many more games of PvT that we see DTs used instead of Banshee. DT > Banshee in all but very, very early game situations, 'cause DT takes longer to tech to and are easy to defend on 1 base (but hard on many).
banshees are basically flying DT, banshees harass is very powerful and if u micro well u can win a game with 1 banshee only. U can't micro DT and the poll seems biased against DT.
It's not really fair to compare these units though. They both have strengths and weaknesses.
DTs may be worse at the start but that's not really their strength in my opinion. Late game when you have the mass production and warp-in let's you control the map and defend pretty well.
On the other hand, banshees are an air unit with range and can also just mix with the army well.
On March 10 2011 20:17 MaRkieMarK wrote: DTs are more badass, but I still feel that cloaked banshees are more deadly and easier to transition out of.
DTs have a simple transition into zealot templar which is a really strong combination against bio terran and small mech balls and can punish a terran in econ at every turn(mule, scv death and or losing mining time) espcially on big maps
On small maps banishees shine more imo because of they cant be warped in and can start doing damage faster it forces ether cannons or observer
I'm a terran player and i am ashamed that my terran brother would give up his Banshee. A Banshee with Cloak is guaranteed to kill something because a Observer is actually slower then a banshee so you can move from base to base faster then the protoss can if he goes 1 observer. If the protoss didn't go robo tech he loses.
If you go DT you are praying that the terran does not have any scans saved up or a safe missle turrent down (which i put one down at the 10 minute mark nearly every game unless i see a immortal or another tech path.
If you go DT you open up Zealots Stalkers and DT
if you go banshee you open up a entire tech tree. Except Thors, BC, Ghosts. Your banshee opening will also give you a Raven. Which is the counter to DT
Theres really no logical argument for a DT being better then a Banshee
On March 10 2011 20:22 Barett wrote: I do understand both arguments, but just pure statistics it is way easier to transition out of Banshees without being way behind.
Every time any Protoss goes DT's and does no damage you are pretty far behind. Banshees you are also behind, I realize that, but you are not really far behind, you just teched a little faster then normal and spent little more money on 2 Banshees/cloak. It isn't near as much of a investment as DT's are.
The fact that Banhsees are ranged and flying is a huge bonus too. Pretty easy to get them away without loosing them.
did you watch the series between san and scf0u? i think he proved the utility of dts with that series alone.
On March 10 2011 20:27 Zefa wrote: I predict 33% (Terran) vote for dts and 67% (Zerg and Protoss) vote for banshees
nope, terrans are acutally a lot more intelligent than protoss or zerg players (they picked terran, which is pretty smart) and therefore probably most people vote banshee.
DT's are more of a game-ender as painuser said. They 1 shot harvesters unlike banshees, and if you dont have scan/turrets up you're pretty much dead. With banshees you have time to react since they dont have the same insane damage.
Also, turrets are awesome against banshees, but against DTs you need a fair amount of units to deal with them. So if they sneak into your base a few turrets wont do anything.
Banshees are better in a real fight, and it might be the better tech path, and not as much of a commitment, but if the question is "would i rather have a DT or a banshee in his base" - the answer would be a DT.
Although the "which unit is best" question is kinda vague, you cant really say which is "best".
On March 10 2011 20:27 Zefa wrote: I predict 33% (Terran) vote for dts and 67% (Zerg and Protoss) vote for banshees
nope, terrans are acutally a lot more intelligent than protoss or zerg players (they picked terran, which is pretty smart) and therefore probably most people vote banshee.
I'd take dt's easy but that's because I never really open banshees anyways and for what I'd be doing the dt's fit better. Plop a few out of the rax every once in a while to cause some havoc, pretty much what I use banshees for now when i have a tlabbed port.
With warp in...Oh my god, really.
dt's are a lot easier to deflect early game that's true. Late game at least for me dt's are way more of a hassle, turrets = banshees do nothing.
I find it kinda funny that it reads "Created from the most common Protoss Building" for dt and "Must be created in a Starport with Tech lab addon" for banshee. You're forgetting how much more expencive and time consuming to go dt shrine. Your description makes it as you can warp in dts after you get gateways.
I felt Tyler/Incontrol's arguments against DTs was like if you were only going to rush up to DTs which is fundamentally flawed. Rushing to DTs is muuuuuch more risky than rushing Banshees. I feel DTs are more effective throughout the game all the way into the late game. It's really easy to harass multiple bases at once with DTs as you can warp them in anywhere. Banshees take longer to build and have to slowly fly across the map where they can be easily intercepted, and once you kill a Banshee, a new one can't just be instantly warped in. I think the argument between them though is silly, the fulfill different roles. I really think DTs are much better as a late game harass unit rather than an early one like Banshees.
On March 10 2011 20:43 rolfe wrote: i think banshees are far more deadly but what we need here really is some kind of neutral zerg player to judge. i nominate ret or haypro!
We dont need to vote because both units are as different as they can get. The whole "X is better than Y" is nonsense, because they are used differently.
If I had to chose between 1 DT and 1 banchee I would take banchee, but the thing is it takes 60 sec to build a banchee and you need one starport with techlab to do it.
Where as you can just warpin as many DTs as you feel like when you get up your dark shrine.
On March 10 2011 20:22 Barett wrote: I do understand both arguments, but just pure statistics it is way easier to transition out of Banshees without being way behind.
Every time any Protoss goes DT's and does no damage you are pretty far behind. Banshees you are also behind, I realize that, but you are not really far behind, you just teched a little faster then normal and spent little more money on 2 Banshees/cloak. It isn't near as much of a investment as DT's are.
The fact that Banhsees are ranged and flying is a huge bonus too. Pretty easy to get them away without loosing them.
did you watch the series between san and scf0u? i think he proved the utility of dts with that series alone.
You mean against a player who had poor control? That same player was able to eliminate DTs instantly as long as he had a Raven, and even AFTER that he just used scans. In late game, scans aren't a big deal to have because you have a multiple OC's going on at once.
The ONLY reason sanZenith was able to have map control through DTs was because sCfou didn't control is Raven well.
On-topic: I would prefer to have banshees (I'm a random player and bancheese is much easier for me to transition from than DT cheese which leaves you pretty all-in gateway only)
i prefer dt's. the only thing i have against it is when you use it as an opening and fails, u pretty much lost the game. cant say the same for a banshee opening tbh
On March 10 2011 20:48 Armsved wrote: If I had to chose between 1 DT and 1 banchee I would take banchee, but the thing is it takes 60 sec to build a banchee and you need one starport with techlab to do it.
Where as you can just warpin as many DTs as you feel like when you get up your dark shrine.
So I prefere DTs
Why does everyone has this misconception that Protoss units have no build time? It takes 5 seconds to warp in a DT and then the Warp Gate is occupied for 45 seconds.
So to build a DT it takes 50 seconds total. And a DT cuts into your core unit production where as a Banshee only cuts into Vikings/Medievacs/etc.
When playing terran you must have detection at 7:30, no matter what. The same isn't valid in PvX, so early game, definitely Banshees. In late game however dt's are superior.
DT's are cute but I would rather have a banshee in my protoss arsenal. Flying DT that can damage without minimal losses. DT's are still nice however I think banshees are more cost efficient.
PainUser isn't arguing between Banshee and DT opening, just the unit's importance overall in the matchup.
Like others have said, they serve different purposes, so the comparison is kind of pointless. The Banshee is obviously better mixing in with fighting units - but when it comes to harassing / map control in late game PvT, DT's are more powerful, no question.
The way the OP formulated his post makes it look biased imo. What I would like to point out is that teching to banshee is a lot less risky and can be much more rewarding that rushing to DTs (mostly in TvP). Also the fact that banshees are flyers and have range makes them much better early/mid game.
Wraiths (and flying units in general) in SC:BW did very low (9) damage to ground which in my personal opinion it was much more better.
I do agree with PainUser as a protoss player. The DT serves the role as a you have no-detectionimgoingtorapeyourface unit. They give much more map control and the terran cannot move out unless he has a raven or alot of scans saved up basically which is very useful to secure an expand or something like that.
Sure, banshees can be a pain in the ass but protoss has mobile detection in the form of observers which are easily accessable. I feel that the banshee is more of a combat/stealth unit and DTs are pure stealth unit, so obviously they excel at that. I feel that the use of banshees is more harass until they have sufficient detection and then retreat with them and keep them in your army. DTs are more map control/harrasment based and they do a better job at it, which I think is PainUsers argument.
The biggest difference between DT and banshees imo is that banshees, after been chased away from the mineral line, they can still fly to the airspace behind the enemy's and hover out of sight, ready to threaten the mineral line again if the opponent moves out and dont leave enough behind. Air units which can be harder at times to get, depending on your choice of build, are required to flush them and even then, they can often get away with cloak On the other hand, DTs once discovered in the mineral line, have usually nowhere to go and will be hunted down and killed, ending the threat once and for all (well not really but the immediate threat is gone, unlike banshees) Also, banshees make much stronger fighters than DTs when theres detection out in the field so really, i would very much prefer banshees over DTs.
Just look at what tech route you have to take to get banshees and what to get for DTs. Teching to DTs leave you completely open and 1 missile turret at your ramp or mineral line counters it. Banshees can still do a ton of damage without even researching cloak and you build them out of the same building as you get medivacs and vikings from. Granted late-late game DTs can be more usefull but again, turrets/PF shut it down completely.
Also, it's funny you mention - Must be created in a Starport with Tech lab addon
But imply that DTs are made from gateways, while you need to tech through TC and Dark Shrine which takes soooooo long to build.
how is this a question? The only argument people make about a dt is that it is perma cloaked. Really the banshee can FLY and cloak at will (energy permitting) not to mention even if you get detection banshees are still very annoying as you have to keep your army seperated. cannons are great but at 8 mins in you shouldnt be investing monies into cannons, your main army will suffer greatly. All terran has to do is build a turret at ur front and each CC and ur safe from dts pretty much. Dts are really useless against zerg until late game and even then it questionable whether those warpins/gas spending is worth it.
Banshees mixed in with your with ur reg army is super strong throw in a raven to snipe detection and pdd and say good night to protoss. Watch any of pain user games against toss in the last MLG to see how good this things are.
As an opening (2/3 gate DT expand), it's rather risky unlike 1/1/1 into cloaked banshees. With protoss warp-ins I feel DT's are much more effective than banshees late game as a means of map control and harassment.
Banshees are actually some what strong in a real army for a terran player. Dt's are so low health that even the high dmg doesn't make up for it. It's a late game catch up unit
On March 10 2011 21:13 kickinhead wrote: Banshees are worse IMHO, cuz in a big fight with PDD, they are ridiculously good as well...
Btw. why doesn't Zerg has a Unit that is comparable with those?
Burrowed Roach / Infestor play? These too force your opponent to invest in detection, so the role is the same except that too few Zerg bother with researching the awesome burrow upgrade.
On March 10 2011 21:13 kickinhead wrote: Banshees are worse IMHO, cuz in a big fight with PDD, they are ridiculously good as well...
Btw. why doesn't Zerg has a Unit that is comparable with those?
Burrowed Roach / Infestor play? These too force your opponent to invest in detection, so the role is the same except that too few Zerg bother with researching the awesome burrow upgrade.
dont forget burrowed bainlings in strategically good places.
Banshees for me. I don't play Terran, but as others have stated as well, if the surprise effect is caught, or dealt with easily then DTs feel like a big waste. Banshees are ranged and fly. The whole stealth aspect doesn't need to be a issue for Banshees, but provides a pretty nice "bonus" in terms of harassment. The fact that they aren't exactly super fast compensates in the defense of Banshee, so that's when stealth gets a bigger bonus value.
Banshees can be mixed in with a Terran army fairly well. While I agree DTs opened up the tech for chargelots, I don't think it's a really good argument. If the DTs didn't require the Dark Shrine, but would be in similar tech path as they were in BW, then I'd say DTs hands down. But as it stands the argument of chargelots is kinda weak I think, since you're investing in a hard hitting melee unit - which fails - but you get the option to invest in a more solid tanking melee unit after that. It almost seems like it's not worth the risk. Whereas Banshees can always float of your tank/bio/thor/whatever army and shoot from the air with ranged attacks, cloaked or not. DTs are a lot less useful once the enemy knows they're there. Regarding tech: apart from the cloak research the tech lab isn't a waste since it allows Ravens to be built (and BCs), and the Starport can be lifted off and switched with a Factory or Barracks afterward. The Dark Shrine cannot be attached to a Stargate or Gateway.
All in all I think the things I mentioned make the Banshee better overall than the DT. Is the DT therefore completely useless, and the Banshee an overpowered piece of ass*? Nope, not by a long shot (though I do find Banshees powerful for sure, but perhaps my Protoss genes are speaking here). Since it's hardly ever a case of only building only DTs/Banshees.
*: I am saying ass here cause I dare not insult that foxy lady flying the Banshee!
though permanent cloak is assumed to be an advantage of DTs just think how long a regular DT lives when used for harass and compare that to Banshees. (obviously a Banshee in most cases will outlive a dT)
The flying DTs aka Banshees have here the advantage cause they can harass and retreat without being killed making it free damage.
While each DT has to do atleast (125/125) additional to be even costeffectiv. Banshees on the other side are also really good battleunits.
so the point is without cloak/or with detection, Banshees still are a good Unit, while DT are nothing more than 2 additional Zealots damagewise.
notice how zerg doesn't have an equivelent "worker slaughtering" harass unit with cloak, how is that fair!! as a zerg user they're both ridiculous.. I've lost more games to DT's though... being able to instantly warp in 4 DT's and simultaneously send them to every single opposing base is pretty sick... can't really do that with banshees..
Ofcourse you shouldn't be rushing to DT's on one base as toss, since that is so easy to shut down, in the same way that you shouldn't suddenly make 2 banshees with cloak in the mid to lategame against toss since that will be easy to shut down (he will have obs/cannons and warpins).
That is just where they are different, banshees are an early game harass unit, that try's to set your opponent back in the early game and punishes him for skipping detection or going for eco over tech (for example a zerg who delays his lair).
The DT on the other hand is more of a mid to lategame unit, when you already have the twilight council up for blink/charge and further upgrades, and you are on 3 bases, it doesn't take that much effort to make 4 DT's and just run one to each base.
And again Zerg and terran probably won't have a lot of detection (or if you see they are greedy and not getting it, just go dt). Now suddenly they have to deal with DT's oneshotting drones/probes at every base, have to get sudden detection up at every base, and have to split up their army to every base to deal with the DT's. Now this suddenly gives you such a nice window to attack since almost every player is now scrambling to get everything up again, drones/scv's to their place, getting up missile turrets, their army is split up, and they are probably paying more attention to that.
So a banshee isn't better then a DT, a DT isn't better then a banshee, you could say that they are the same, a cloaked harass unit, but they have their uses at different points in the game.
I guess this banshee > DT mostly comes from the fact that a cloaked banshee can autowin a game in the early game where a DT cannot, but a DT is more potent towards the lategame. and since this game is still (but becoming better because of the new maps) such an allin, try to autowin on ladder, I guess people just prefer banshees.
Painuser his point, if I understand him correctly is just that he prefers the lategame power of the DT over the more early game power of the banshee since he doesn't like rush to cloak banshee shennanigans anyway.
And see this is the exactly the problem, look at what Freetgy said.
People are just trying to use DT's as an early game all unit and try to use it as a banshee, but that is just not it's role, it's just to easily shut down for it to work, it's just not it's strength. so obviously those people prefer the banshee. (since it can fly, can actually come back into the army, isn't such a big investment in the early game etc).
I'd say I've lost more games to unexpected banshees than unexpected DTs, but that may just be because more people use one over the other. That being said, the number of battles I've won on the backs of a few DTs thrown into the mix is pretty high.
No only go you need detection for guard against banshees but you need AA. And Banshee's win 1v1 vs a queen so they are extremly powerful against zerg.
Its easier to get 1 Banshee than 1 DT. Starport can be used for other things(medivac , BC etc) , DT Shrine can't. It doesnt even unlock anymore tech/upgrades.
biggest issue with dt's is the fact that mixing them into your army is very difficult
basically they end up being a squishier zealot, without charge, and requires a lil detection to kill. having some kind of detection isnt that hard to come by
so if i had a army, at whatever point in the game, any point in the game... would i rather have banshees or dts in it?
banshees, for sure
ranged is easier to work with, while dts die the moment they get spotted
making them into archons needs to be done more, but thats not done enough honestly.
for harass, i wouldnt be able to choose one or the other, they do different jobs and have different pros and cons. so the breaking point to me is which is more versatile. which banshees win with the increased mobility and the fact they have a reasonable range to their attack.
DTs lost me at least four separate games on Delta Quadrant, causing me to thumbs down the map, so I'm going to vote for DTs. I even knew they were coming in the last game but had just used a scan and was too far from Starport Tech to move out effectively...
On March 10 2011 20:27 Zefa wrote: I predict 33% (Terran) vote for dts and 67% (Zerg and Protoss) vote for banshees
Wow you almost got it right. You should be a stock trader.
On the topic, I prefer DTs, not because they are as good as banshee, but because the ability to create them. After you have the dark shrine, you can make DT anytime you want throughout the game, but with banshee, you only make it in the early game, after that, most of the time people don't have startport+techlab anymore. Another thing to note is although Protoss and Zerg have weak detection in early game, after they have robo and lair, their detection mobility is so good that it's not worth for Terran to invest in banshee anymore, in TvT, banshee is still good midgame to snipe things down.
Haha I love how the OP's explanations of the dark templar and the banshee make it sound like the former is much better than the latter. Some heavy bias there?
I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
But anyway, very cool Lego pictures! Props for those!
I can't believe this poll is so close however OP didn't mention few things - teching to dark shrine - "must research cloak" says who? you don't have to research cloak but still opponents will have to get detection - banshees have slightly more health and can be repaired - yes DTs can regen shield but they die more often than banshees - banshees are viable in standard army composition OP made this poll about their harrasment capabilities while that's not all they're good for
i would go with the banshee because it can fly! and its so good once you manage to kill a lot of workers just throw it into your main army there dps is insane
As a "sneak in and cripple" I'd opt for banshees. As a zerg player i find a sudden attack from DTs far easier to handle than one from banshees. DTs move slow enough for me to run units about to minimize casualties somewhat. You don't really have that luxury against banshees (due to range and flight).
For a "mix a couple into your army late game" i'd opt for DTs. Mixing 3-4 into your army to chill with the zealots is damn good when the enemy is skimping on mobile detection with their main forces.
On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with.
As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! I hate DTs, but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
On March 10 2011 21:13 kickinhead wrote: Banshees are worse IMHO, cuz in a big fight with PDD, they are ridiculously good as well...
Btw. why doesn't Zerg has a Unit that is comparable with those?
Burrowed Roach / Infestor play? These too force your opponent to invest in detection, so the role is the same except that too few Zerg bother with researching the awesome burrow upgrade.
Nah man. Burrowed roaches don't really compare to these units. Once Zerg has infestors, the infestor energy upgrade and burrow, they can do some mineral line invisible harass. But for that to work you have to sluggishly underground crawl them back there, hope he doesn't have turrets, obs, cannons or overseers. Also, this is much later in the game than the DT and Banshee.
I'm cool with Zerg not having a gimmicky unit that can outright win games if not scouted. Makes us bi-winners.
banshees! because they are powerful in many army compositions, while Dts are only powerful when going around like ninjas. Also dt's take 7 years to tech to.
On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with.
As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony
can you explain to me why you prefer dealing with banshees over dts? especially as terran banshees outrange marines can be used on cliffs / edges of base I'm not trolling I'm just honestly shocked by so many ppl prefering dealing with banshees
You don't Have to build an entire building which is 250 gas to just make Banshees. Also you can make a raven after your banshees become ineffective due to blink/cannons...
On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with.
As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony
That's a weird way of looking at it though. I deal with dark templar harrass as often as I do with banshee harrass (but perhaps only because I play 2v2 as well as 1v1). If a Terran says dark templar are worse because they've never had to play against them, then he's not really making an informed decision.
As a Terran player, you'd rather have the banshee. As a Protoss player, I'd rather have the banshee (and not because of Nony... because I have experience dealing with both the banshee and the dark templar).
I was just amused by the OPs breakdown of each unit, where it seemed like he gave the pros of the dark templar and the cons of the banshee, when in reality the banshee is superior to the dark templar overall. Heck, every unit has cons and could be made to look like a bad unit, but one should be objective and consider the pros and cons of each.
banshee just "sucks" i never make banshees annymore and the one or 2 times i try in teamgames its always useless but that could well be due to my bad control
the cloaking timer is annoying, you cant realy park them somewhere on the map and just leave them. beside that their dps is just to low, even though its ranged and by no means bad compared to other units beeing an air unit they are also easier to spot i feel
just looking at it as a unit i clearly prefer dts, but if you take into account the whole infrastructure i find it hard to say. dts need a specific building where banshees need none realy (everyone makes a starport and a techlab is dirt cheap and builds verry fast, its re-usable also) so guess for dts you have to commit a bit more maybe early game still cloak is 200/200 lol wich is a ton early game and early banshee with cloak i a big comitment and late banshees just dont seem so usefull both zerg toss and terran have good counters against them wich are also usefull in normal other situations
I'm with banshees only because you can micro then away and they aren't throw away units. Tbh when I send a dt out I know for a fact it isn't coming back no matter how hard I try. Banshees however always seem to escape with their hp in the red only to be repaired and return to attack in the future
On March 11 2011 01:21 1Eris1 wrote: I don't think these units can be compared. Banshees may be better overall than a DT, but DT's are far stronger vs zerg for example.
Can you elaborate? The main advantage of a banshee seems to me that they can fly away. If you warp in a dt, harass with it, it will like 90% of the times die. Banshee in the contrary, can just fly away en get repaired.
Loved the discussion and the mocking of incontrol and tyler at SotG!
On March 11 2011 01:21 1Eris1 wrote: I don't think these units can be compared. Banshees may be better overall than a DT, but DT's are far stronger vs zerg for example.
Not really, if terran sneaks banshees in early enough and snipes off your queens, its basically over. DTs seem to come a bit slower, and if Terran/Protss looks like he's teching, any Zerg should rush to Lair in time to deal with DTs
On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with.
As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony
That's a weird way of looking at it though. I deal with dark templar harrass as often as I do with banshee harrass (but perhaps only because I play 2v2 as well as 1v1). If a Terran says dark templar are worse because they've never had to play against them, then he's not really making an informed decision.
As a Terran player, you'd rather have the banshee. As a Protoss player, I'd rather have the banshee (and not because of Nony... because I have experience dealing with both the banshee and the dark templar).
I was just amused by the OPs breakdown of each unit, where it seemed like he gave the pros of the dark templar and the cons of the banshee, when in reality the banshee is superior to the dark templar overall. Heck, every unit has cons and could be made to look like a bad unit, but one should be objective and consider the pros and cons of each.
LOL, yeah the OP's write up seems pretty clearly biased.
I think I am in the minority though as a terran saying Banshees are better. The reason i think is that Terran is actually pretty good at countering themselves. Banshees have limited cloak, turrets detect and shoot them, vikings have very long range, our basic unit shoots air. All this leads to Terran not having as hard a time vs Banshees as other races. On the other hand, vs DTs to move out you pretty much need ravens, which can be fed backed, and our turrets detect but don't shoot DTs. I have played a lot as other races so I know how it feels to have banshees attack you so I value them highly, but if I only played Terran I might miss out on that and view them as less than DTs since I always have more options.
DTs are good for a sneak attack. That's all they're good for. Banshees can be used for a sneak attack or when used with Marine+Raven can be used to just a move a Protoss that doesn't have Colossi+Phoenix+Zealot combo.
DTs are obviously better if you can catch your opponent off guard, but I'd say Banshees are better if they plan for your attack or if you want to engage straight up.
I think OP is a little terran biased by not mentioning that you need 350 gas in tech structures (shrine+council) which is the same cost of building a starport and researching cloak, and a starport with a tech lab remains useful even after the enemy has detection as banshees still work well against detection in many cases (a lot more than archon at least) and ravens with pdd and auto turret harass are nice too.
Personally I think both are about equal, however one thing everyone can agree on is that both are a lot more scary than burrowed roaches
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
On March 11 2011 01:27 arterian wrote: DTs are good for a sneak attack. That's all they're good for. Banshees can be used for a sneak attack or when used with Marine+Raven can be used to just a move a Protoss that doesn't have Colossi+Phoenix+Zealot combo.
DTs are obviously better if you can catch your opponent off guard, but I'd say Banshees are better if they plan for your attack or if you want to engage straight up.
I think OP is a little terran biased by not mentioning that you need 350 gas in tech structures (shrine+council) which is the same cost of building a starport and researching cloak, and a starport with a tech lab remains useful even after the enemy has detection as banshees still work well against detection in many cases (a lot more than archon at least) and ravens with pdd and auto turret harass are nice too.
Personally I think both are about equal, however one thing everyone can agree on is that both are a lot more scary than burrowed roaches
But none of them holds a candle to Catz burrowed infestors, 4 shotting 20 SCVs thats 5 SCVs a hit .
Banshees defninitely. Using DTs effectively in the early game essentially requires your opponent to not scout or be aggressive at all, or even build a single paranoid turret.
Seriously, every time I DT rush (or even DT fast-expo) a terran, I just sit there thinking, "He could kill me right now. He could kill me right now. How hasn't he killed me RIGHT NOW?" And then I walk into his base, past his bioball that could have killed me at any time, and he hasn't built a single turret. In addition, the instant you're spotted (a lucky scan) you're basically done. You can't transition out of early DTs - the hideously expensive dark shrine does not provide any added value. so you're just flat behind. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a terran go for fast banshees, get scouted, and then just use the same starport to early drop instead. DTs are nice against anybody without detection in the late game, though.
By contrast, banshee rushing is safe-ish (except against the 4gate), easy to transition out of, and has been previously mentioned, even if the protoss gets detection up, there are cliffs to abuse, and the banshee can basically run home. Sending the DT into an opponent's base is basically kissing it goodbye.
On March 11 2011 01:21 1Eris1 wrote: I don't think these units can be compared. Banshees may be better overall than a DT, but DT's are far stronger vs zerg for example.
Not really, if terran sneaks banshees in early enough and snipes off your queens, its basically over. DTs seem to come a bit slower, and if Terran/Protss looks like he's teching, any Zerg should rush to Lair in time to deal with DTs
Im a masters zerg, banshees are a joke nowadays. DT remain strong harassing units throughout the game.
You can just look at the unit, you have to look at things like (you can multiple DT's at once, on different parts of the map, etc)
On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with.
As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony
That's a weird way of looking at it though. I deal with dark templar harrass as often as I do with banshee harrass (but perhaps only because I play 2v2 as well as 1v1). If a Terran says dark templar are worse because they've never had to play against them, then he's not really making an informed decision.
As a Terran player, you'd rather have the banshee. As a Protoss player, I'd rather have the banshee (and not because of Nony... because I have experience dealing with both the banshee and the dark templar).
I was just amused by the OPs breakdown of each unit, where it seemed like he gave the pros of the dark templar and the cons of the banshee, when in reality the banshee is superior to the dark templar overall. Heck, every unit has cons and could be made to look like a bad unit, but one should be objective and consider the pros and cons of each.
LOL, yeah the OP's write up seems pretty clearly biased.
I think I am in the minority though as a terran saying Banshees are better. The reason i think is that Terran is actually pretty good at countering themselves. Banshees have limited cloak, turrets detect and shoot them, vikings have very long range, our basic unit shoots air. All this leads to Terran not having as hard a time vs Banshees as other races. On the other hand, vs DTs to move out you pretty much need ravens, which can be fed backed, and our turrets detect but don't shoot DTs. I have played a lot as other races so I know how it feels to have banshees attack you so I value them highly, but if I only played Terran I might miss out on that and view them as less than DTs since I always have more options.
I think those are pretty salient points, though the threat of any cloaked unit in general usually gives that person more map control than usual.
I think an interesting point that some people haven't looked at yet is the fact that it's generally impractical to go dark templar because of the tech route. Starports are a natural (and even necessary, one might argue) transition for Terran, and even banshee cloak isn't necessary to make them useful for worker harrass (or to make them good in armies). However, the dark templar tech path is longer, doesn't allow for any other transitions (other templar tech? how much gas do we have here?), and possibly the most important of all: stops you from getting robo tech(read as: no colossus). In other words, you're pretty much stuck on gateway units now, whereas Terran has unlocked most of his entire tech tree. Therefore, I think that the very decision to go banshees or dark templar greatly influences the entire game for the Protoss and the Terran. It's almost helpful for the Terran, whereas it's incredibly risky for the Protoss.
~I would have to go for DT's I will early game both early game, DT & Banshee asfighting units and mid to late game. For this discussion I will limit myself to TvP
Early game Its true that the Banshee flys (hard denying that). This makes it easier for the Banshee to do his harassment. You will always get some kills swith the banshee making it a extreem viable early game harassment unit. But personally I think its the Protoss game to lose , not the Terran's game to win. Meaning, no matter how well the Terran plays his banshee harass, it will only be as viable as the Protoss makes mistakes.
The DT's are ground units, making it harder for them to get to the mineral line of the main, or the natural. It is easier for the Terran to stop the DT's with one or two forward placed turrets.
Even if the DT's are easier to stop, they pin down the opponent much more. As long as there are DT's on the field, Terran cant move out without a Raven (wich takes a very long time to tech to and make). This gives the Terran could move out with scans, but they will dry out when the Protoss keeps sending one DT at the army. When there are no more scans there is basicly no more Terran army. Obviously the Banshee pins down the Protoss as well. Bet instead of threatening the Protoss army it can solely threaten the mineral line, making it much easier for the Protoss to move out when it wants to. Plus its much easier for Protoss to get out stable detection.
Conclusion, yes the banshee has more harass possibility in the early game but the DT can have great strategical value for the Protoss when it wants to tech to a certain unit comp. (gateway +2+2 would be a possible next step)
Unit comp The Banshee works better in the Terran army then the DT does in the Protoss army. Personally I feel that it are both HARASS units. Making there role in the army secundair. One might say that when the Banshee harass doesnt work Terran can still use them in there main army. But as said earlier the Protoss has more time to tech after the DT harassment. Also, there is always the archon. Even if there are DT's left after the initial harass, they can always be made into Archons and have somewhat of a role in the Protoss army.
Mid to late game This is why I mostly prefer the DT over the Banshee. later in the game Protoss only has to throw donw a Dark shrine (granted it will take forever to build). After Dark shrine is finished, whenever the Protoss feels like it he can imediatly throw down 3/4/5 DT's and send them to mutible location to harass. And the harassment at this point in the game is scarifyingly good. If the Terran would want to harass mid to late game, it needs to invest a lot of minerals in making the Banshees then it needs to be with the army to make the army strong enough, so the protoss will more likely know they are there. The DT's only cost Protoss the minerals when he really wants to use the DT's. Another argument why I find the DT's late game so much better is that the Banshees are not permenantly cloacked. they are easliy spoted when moving over the map, or they need to cloack way earlier, shortening there harassment time significantly. The DT's on the other hand walk to the base being cloacked and are almost impoosible to detect until they start destroying some SCV's.
Personally, I'd take banshees over DTs without giving it a second thought. The bloody things fly, and can be a right pain in the arse if handled right even if they're unable to cloak. DTs are just a scissors-paper-stone unit.
Or, to put it another way, my reaction to taking heavy damage from banshees is usually a case of "my opponent did that well, that was hard to handle", heavy damage from DTs always feels like "I am such a nub, one overseer and that would have been 100% different".
On March 11 2011 01:42 Deckkie wrote: ~I would have to go for DT's I will early game both early game, DT & Banshee asfighting units and mid to late game. For this discussion I will limit myself to TvP
Early game Its true that the Banshee flys (hard denying that). This makes it easier for the Banshee to do his harassment. You will always get some kills swith the banshee making it a extreem viable early game harassment unit. But personally I think its the Protoss game to lose , not the Terran's game to win. Meaning, no matter how well the Terran plays his banshee harass, it will only be as viable as the Protoss makes mistakes.
The DT's are ground units, making it harder for them to get to the mineral line of the main, or the natural. It is easier for the Terran to stop the DT's with one or two forward placed turrets.
Even if the DT's are easier to stop, they pin down the opponent much more. As long as there are DT's on the field, Terran cant move out without a Raven (wich takes a very long time to tech to and make). This gives the Terran could move out with scans, but they will dry out when the Protoss keeps sending one DT at the army. When there are no more scans there is basicly no more Terran army. Obviously the Banshee pins down the Protoss as well. Bet instead of threatening the Protoss army it can solely threaten the mineral line, making it much easier for the Protoss to move out when it wants to. Plus its much easier for Protoss to get out stable detection.
Conclusion, yes the banshee has more harass possibility in the early game but the DT can have great strategical value for the Protoss when it wants to tech to a certain unit comp. (gateway +2+2 would be a possible next step)
Unit comp The Banshee works better in the Terran army then the DT does in the Protoss army. Personally I feel that it are both HARASS units. Making there role in the army secundair. One might say that when the Banshee harass doesnt work Terran can still use them in there main army. But as said earlier the Protoss has more time to tech after the DT harassment. Also, there is always the archon. Even if there are DT's left after the initial harass, they can always be made into Archons and have somewhat of a role in the Protoss army.
Mid to late game This is why I mostly prefer the DT over the Banshee. later in the game Protoss only has to throw donw a Dark shrine (granted it will take forever to build). After Dark shrine is finished, whenever the Protoss feels like it he can imediatly throw down 3/4/5 DT's and send them to mutible location to harass. And the harassment at this point in the game is scarifyingly good. If the Terran would want to harass mid to late game, it needs to invest a lot of minerals in making the Banshees then it needs to be with the army to make the army strong enough, so the protoss will more likely know they are there. The DT's only cost Protoss the minerals when he really wants to use the DT's. Another argument why I find the DT's late game so much better is that the Banshees are not permenantly cloacked. they are easliy spoted when moving over the map, or they need to cloack way earlier, shortening there harassment time significantly. The DT's on the other hand walk to the base being cloacked and are almost impoosible to detect until they start destroying some SCV's.
Again I would really have to go with the DT's
Your problem is that, in a TvP, if the Terran goes cloaked banshees and the Protoss goes dark templar, the Terran will win every time because the Protoss won't have a robo for observers, and he's not going to spend 450 minerals on a forge and two cannons. The banshees will kill the Protoss long before the Protoss can attack. Furthermore, The Terran can scan/ scout the Protoss's base more easily than the other way around, therefore making it easier to stop a dark templar harrass than a banshee harrass. And yes, even though cloak eventually runs out for the banshees, there will be more than enough time to kill probes, some buildings, and gather intel that would let the Terran perfectly counter Protoss's all-in dark templar rush. He could just build a raven... There won't be a mid-to-late game.
On March 11 2011 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm a Protoss player (and heck, I currently have the dark templar portrait on TL) and even I recognize that banshees (or the threat of banshee harrass) are a lot more intimidating than dark templar
I think the whole point is that Protoss players are more likely to say Banshees are better and Terran will say DTs are better because that is the harassment they deal with.
As a terran player I prefer to deal with Banshees over DTs so much! but if I was going to have one of the units I would take the Banshee. That said I voted Banshee because I <3 Nony
can you explain to me why you prefer dealing with banshees over dts? especially as terran banshees outrange marines can be used on cliffs / edges of base I'm not trolling I'm just honestly shocked by so many ppl prefering dealing with banshees
Because banshee can only be created at a certain timing. Pass that timing, it's not logical to keep the techlab on starport since you need to pump viking and medivac as much as possible. And after a certain timing, protoss and zerg has such good mobile detection that it's not worth to get banshee anymore. 2 warpin stalker or 1,2 queen can deal with banshee harassment easily with observer/overseer, while a turret or 15 scv can't deal with a sneaky dt.
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
i dont even want to get into the DT vs Banshee what is better discussion. i just wanted to point out a post that complains about something he didnt get.
(btw how about thinking about whole games and not only "banshee rush vs dt rush what is better!!!!111")
Banshees. Especially early game, force earlier detection...DTs are nifty but don't really change how any stage of the game is played (as much as the banshee)
Banshees versus Terran or Protoss. DTs vs zerg (So few get detection and leave bases wide open). Most zergs only get one or two overseers so I simply send DTs where the overseers aren't. Plus DTs can snipe buildings faster which seems much more damaging for zergs.
Overall banshees though because they're a great combat unit as well and can often escape when detected.
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee. It's very risky for Protoss to go dark templar, whereas if a Terran goes banshee, it inevitably unlocks most of his tech tree on the way there.
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee.
dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production.
that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is.
On March 11 2011 01:42 Deckkie wrote: ~I would have to go for DT's I will early game both early game, DT & Banshee asfighting units and mid to late game. For this discussion I will limit myself to TvP
Early game Its true that the Banshee flys (hard denying that). This makes it easier for the Banshee to do his harassment. You will always get some kills swith the banshee making it a extreem viable early game harassment unit. But personally I think its the Protoss game to lose , not the Terran's game to win. Meaning, no matter how well the Terran plays his banshee harass, it will only be as viable as the Protoss makes mistakes.
The DT's are ground units, making it harder for them to get to the mineral line of the main, or the natural. It is easier for the Terran to stop the DT's with one or two forward placed turrets.
Even if the DT's are easier to stop, they pin down the opponent much more. As long as there are DT's on the field, Terran cant move out without a Raven (wich takes a very long time to tech to and make). This gives the Terran could move out with scans, but they will dry out when the Protoss keeps sending one DT at the army. When there are no more scans there is basicly no more Terran army. Obviously the Banshee pins down the Protoss as well. Bet instead of threatening the Protoss army it can solely threaten the mineral line, making it much easier for the Protoss to move out when it wants to. Plus its much easier for Protoss to get out stable detection.
Conclusion, yes the banshee has more harass possibility in the early game but the DT can have great strategical value for the Protoss when it wants to tech to a certain unit comp. (gateway +2+2 would be a possible next step)
Unit comp The Banshee works better in the Terran army then the DT does in the Protoss army. Personally I feel that it are both HARASS units. Making there role in the army secundair. One might say that when the Banshee harass doesnt work Terran can still use them in there main army. But as said earlier the Protoss has more time to tech after the DT harassment. Also, there is always the archon. Even if there are DT's left after the initial harass, they can always be made into Archons and have somewhat of a role in the Protoss army.
Mid to late game This is why I mostly prefer the DT over the Banshee. later in the game Protoss only has to throw donw a Dark shrine (granted it will take forever to build). After Dark shrine is finished, whenever the Protoss feels like it he can imediatly throw down 3/4/5 DT's and send them to mutible location to harass. And the harassment at this point in the game is scarifyingly good. If the Terran would want to harass mid to late game, it needs to invest a lot of minerals in making the Banshees then it needs to be with the army to make the army strong enough, so the protoss will more likely know they are there. The DT's only cost Protoss the minerals when he really wants to use the DT's. Another argument why I find the DT's late game so much better is that the Banshees are not permenantly cloacked. they are easliy spoted when moving over the map, or they need to cloack way earlier, shortening there harassment time significantly. The DT's on the other hand walk to the base being cloacked and are almost impoosible to detect until they start destroying some SCV's.
Again I would really have to go with the DT's
Your problem is that, in a TvP, if the Terran goes cloaked banshees and the Protoss goes dark templar, the Terran will win every time because the Protoss won't have a robo for observers, and he's not going to spend 450 minerals on a forge and two cannons. The banshees will kill the Protoss long before the Protoss can attack. Furthermore, The Terran can scan/ scout the Protoss's base more easily than the other way around, therefore making it easier to stop a dark templar harrass than a banshee harrass. And yes, even though cloak eventually runs out for the banshees, there will be more than enough time to kill probes, some buildings, and gather intel that would let the Terran perfectly counter Protoss's all-in dark templar rush. He could just build a raven... There won't be a mid-to-late game.
I think if you read a little more carefully, you will see that my strongest arguments ly in the mid to late game.
Going for cloaked banshees is indeed quite a investment. If you go for a banshee + cloak upgrade you need to have around 10 kills to pay for it. If you don't manage to do any damage with the banshee you are as far behind as if you don't manage to do any damage with the DT's.
Yes the Dark Shrine might be seen as a waste right then, but so would the banshee's cloak resource have been. The cloak is 200/200 with the time 110 and Dark Shrine is 100/250 with time 100. Seems pretty even to me..
The Twilight Council basically opens up alot of choices for toss, and can't really be seen as a waste.
I mean common, Charge, blink and HT....
If the game goes to mid-late 99% of the toss players will go for HT's anyway.
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee.
dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production.
that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is.
Dark templar harrass isn't nearly as effective in the mid-to-late game, because your opponent will have detection. It doesn't even matter if you make a dark templar from each of your 8 gateways (which is 1000 minerals and 1000 gas, by the way), because they'll be nullified by turrets or cannons or spore crawlers (or actual detecting units).
The dark templar's main asset is its ability to cloak, and once that's nullified, it doesn't matter how many you produce. It would be more helpful to transition into units that have range or specialize in other areas (like those who counter whatever unit your opponent is making). The fact that you can make a lot of one unit is pointless if the unit is obejctively countered (in this case, by detection).
The problem here is that dark templar tech doesn't transition into anything except for other gateway units. That means no colossi, no void rays, etc. Protoss is stuck if they go dark templar and can't win. However, even if the banshee harrass is stopped, Terran has a bio tree, mech tree, and air tree that they've opened up. Switch a few add-ons and start production!
They are both fantastically good. It's actually very hard to choose. ================================================== Disclaimer - I'm assuming both players are at least competent and know common usage tactics for each respective unit.
As an opener (rush) ------------------------------------ + Show Spoiler +
Dark Templar Rush - if it goes unscouted, Protoss can just outright effectively win. • Many Terran openers will not have an ebay and at best one scan. • A 1 rax FE will regen scans a little faster. • Critical structures can be permanently stopped from building by the DT. So, if there is no ebay, and no starport, you cannot create detection beyond scans. • The DT is faster than any unit Terran has at this point in the game (barring a stim or helion rush). • Protoss has almost no army, and most likely only two gateways. Templar tech tree is already primarily complete. Transition into HTs are viable.
Cloaked Banshee Rush - if it goes unscouted, Terran can get a massive lead. It will rarely outright win the game. • Robo openers are extremely popular for Protoss right now. Some Protoss rush strategies do not include a robo (4gate, 3gate+blink, VR rush, Phoenix). • A robo facility cannot be interrupted by a banshee once it begins to warp in. • observers are very inexpensive and can be c-boosted. • The banshee can fly but cannot outrun stalkers.
The DT is more potent in that if the opponent is not prepared their chances of recovering are almost impossible. It is basically a free win. It is risky, because Protoss takes a serious hit to early game army size and if planning a robo-tech or stargate mid game has to construct some new tech buildings.
The Banshee rush is also very potent but will be neutralized, guaranteed, by the warping in of a Robo Fac the moment the banshee is spotted. Both tech rushes require significant investment, but the DT tech is slightly shorter. The Banshee rush is less potent in the sense that if the opponent is unprepared, they can become prepared during the attack and there is nothing the banshee can do about it.
The banshee is a better combat unit in mid-game as part of an army composition, and is more common but cannot reliably be used for map control. The speed and perma-cloak feature of the DT makes it much more useful for map control, and expansion harass, but is almost completely ineffective as a combat unit because of scans, EMP, and/or the Raven.
Late and end game --------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
The DT wins.
Its speed and perma-cloak attribute really shines in late and extreme late game scenarios where the opponents are very spread out and detection may become an issue.
Conclusion ---------------------- They are both wonderfully powerful units. They both shine in certain aspects of the game. They can both be countered and will both cause major damage as a rush play if not scouted or blind countered. For those looking for a play that is essentially a free BO win, the DT is better, for players looking for an opener than can secure a lead, or possibly a huge lead, the Banshee is better.
On March 11 2011 01:42 Deckkie wrote: ~I would have to go for DT's I will early game both early game, DT & Banshee asfighting units and mid to late game. For this discussion I will limit myself to TvP
Early game Its true that the Banshee flys (hard denying that). This makes it easier for the Banshee to do his harassment. You will always get some kills swith the banshee making it a extreem viable early game harassment unit. But personally I think its the Protoss game to lose , not the Terran's game to win. Meaning, no matter how well the Terran plays his banshee harass, it will only be as viable as the Protoss makes mistakes.
The DT's are ground units, making it harder for them to get to the mineral line of the main, or the natural. It is easier for the Terran to stop the DT's with one or two forward placed turrets.
Even if the DT's are easier to stop, they pin down the opponent much more. As long as there are DT's on the field, Terran cant move out without a Raven (wich takes a very long time to tech to and make). This gives the Terran could move out with scans, but they will dry out when the Protoss keeps sending one DT at the army. When there are no more scans there is basicly no more Terran army. Obviously the Banshee pins down the Protoss as well. Bet instead of threatening the Protoss army it can solely threaten the mineral line, making it much easier for the Protoss to move out when it wants to. Plus its much easier for Protoss to get out stable detection.
Conclusion, yes the banshee has more harass possibility in the early game but the DT can have great strategical value for the Protoss when it wants to tech to a certain unit comp. (gateway +2+2 would be a possible next step)
Unit comp The Banshee works better in the Terran army then the DT does in the Protoss army. Personally I feel that it are both HARASS units. Making there role in the army secundair. One might say that when the Banshee harass doesnt work Terran can still use them in there main army. But as said earlier the Protoss has more time to tech after the DT harassment. Also, there is always the archon. Even if there are DT's left after the initial harass, they can always be made into Archons and have somewhat of a role in the Protoss army.
Mid to late game This is why I mostly prefer the DT over the Banshee. later in the game Protoss only has to throw donw a Dark shrine (granted it will take forever to build). After Dark shrine is finished, whenever the Protoss feels like it he can imediatly throw down 3/4/5 DT's and send them to mutible location to harass. And the harassment at this point in the game is scarifyingly good. If the Terran would want to harass mid to late game, it needs to invest a lot of minerals in making the Banshees then it needs to be with the army to make the army strong enough, so the protoss will more likely know they are there. The DT's only cost Protoss the minerals when he really wants to use the DT's. Another argument why I find the DT's late game so much better is that the Banshees are not permenantly cloacked. they are easliy spoted when moving over the map, or they need to cloack way earlier, shortening there harassment time significantly. The DT's on the other hand walk to the base being cloacked and are almost impoosible to detect until they start destroying some SCV's.
Again I would really have to go with the DT's
Your problem is that, in a TvP, if the Terran goes cloaked banshees and the Protoss goes dark templar, the Terran will win every time because the Protoss won't have a robo for observers, and he's not going to spend 450 minerals on a forge and two cannons. The banshees will kill the Protoss long before the Protoss can attack. Furthermore, The Terran can scan/ scout the Protoss's base more easily than the other way around, therefore making it easier to stop a dark templar harrass than a banshee harrass. And yes, even though cloak eventually runs out for the banshees, there will be more than enough time to kill probes, some buildings, and gather intel that would let the Terran perfectly counter Protoss's all-in dark templar rush. He could just build a raven... There won't be a mid-to-late game.
I think if you read a little more carefully, you will see that my strongest arguments ly in the mid to late game.
Check out my response to BeMannerDuPenner (the post two above this one) as to why I don't see dark templar as very viable at that point in time.
I do have to go now, but I'm glad I got to have this conversation with you guys
On March 10 2011 20:22 coddan wrote: I think your pros and cons aren't very fair. You only list the good things about the DT, while you list several of the bad things about the banshee. Why would you list Startport+Tech Lab as something bad, when it's way more handicapping to tech to Dark Srhine?
my first problem with this post as well... very intellectually dishonest representation of the two.
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
It seems you have little experience in lategame Protoss, but having 6 gateways is extremely common on 2 or 3 bases. It isn't common to have 6 tech lab Starports at any time.
Point is that you're going to build gateways anyways, mineral only buildings that can warp-in any gateway unit you have the tech for. If you go 4 port banshee or 6 port banshee you have no choice but to continue doing that untill you win or lose, since you don't have the infrastructure to build anything else.
If you somehow go heavy DT from your gateways and it isn't succesful you can always spend your next round of warp-in on different units.
Personally, I like DT's more, but that's a personal preference. Primarily I like them in combination with the warp-in mechanic since you can choose to have them NOW when you deem them useful. Banshees might be more useful in direct comparison, but DT tech is a lot more flexible to me. You scout a push without Raven? Warp-in some DT's for defense. Push with a Raven? Warp in zealots instead or send DT's to counter attack your opponent's bases.
If you go heavy Starport and your opponent goes phoenixes, how are you going to use those Starports differently?
They're fundamentally different units. Banshees are better for early-game harass and have an easier/more stable transition into the mid-game. DTs are better mid- to late-game harass units because of warp in combined with warp prisms and pylon spread. DTs are also better for map control.
Overall, DTs are probably a bit better vs. T and banshees are pretty clearly better vs. P. Against zerg... I'd probably favor DTs, but I could see an argument the other way.
On March 10 2011 20:29 BetterFasterStronger wrote: I'm a terran player and i am ashamed that my terran brother would give up his Banshee. A Banshee with Cloak is guaranteed to kill something because a Observer is actually slower then a banshee so you can move from base to base faster then the protoss can if he goes 1 observer. If the protoss didn't go robo tech he loses.
If you go DT you are praying that the terran does not have any scans saved up or a safe missle turrent down (which i put one down at the 10 minute mark nearly every game unless i see a immortal or another tech path.
If you go DT you open up Zealots Stalkers and DT
if you go banshee you open up a entire tech tree. Except Thors, BC, Ghosts. Your banshee opening will also give you a Raven. Which is the counter to DT
Theres really no logical argument for a DT being better then a Banshee
On March 10 2011 20:22 coddan wrote: I think your pros and cons aren't very fair. You only list the good things about the DT, while you list several of the bad things about the banshee. Why would you list Startport+Tech Lab as something bad, when it's way more handicapping to tech to Dark Srhine?
my first problem with this post as well... very intellectually dishonest representation of the two.
Yup. "made from most common protoss building" I guess thats technically true but it sounds like saying:
Yea I ALWAYS have a dark shrine in my build. its pretty much a given. like a pylon bro.
On March 11 2011 02:40 TimeSpiral wrote: They are both fantastically good. It's actually very hard to choose. ================================================== Disclaimer - I'm assuming both players are at least competent and know common usage tactics for each respective unit.
As an opener (rush) ------------------------------------ + Show Spoiler +
Dark Templar Rush - if it goes unscouted, Protoss can just outright effectively win. • Many Terran openers will not have an ebay and at best one scan. • A 1 rax FE will regen scans a little faster. • Critical structures can be permanently stopped from building by the DT. So, if there is no ebay, and no starport, you cannot create detection beyond scans. • The DT is faster than any unit Terran has at this point in the game (barring a stim or helion rush). • Protoss has almost no army, and most likely only two gateways. Templar tech tree is already primarily complete. Transition into HTs are viable.
Cloaked Banshee Rush - if it goes unscouted, Terran can get a massive lead. It will rarely outright win the game. • Robo openers are extremely popular for Protoss right now. Some Protoss rush strategies do not include a robo (4gate, 3gate+blink, VR rush, Phoenix). • A robo facility cannot be interrupted by a banshee once it begins to warp in. • observers are very inexpensive and can be c-boosted. • The banshee can fly but cannot outrun stalkers.
The DT is more potent in that if the opponent is not prepared their chances of recovering are almost impossible. It is basically a free win. It is risky, because Protoss takes a serious hit to early game army size and if planning a robo-tech or stargate mid game has to construct some new tech buildings.
The Banshee rush is also very potent but will be neutralized, guaranteed, by the warping in of a Robo Fac the moment the banshee is spotted. Both tech rushes require significant investment, but the DT tech is slightly shorter. The Banshee rush is less potent in the sense that if the opponent is unprepared, they can become prepared during the attack and there is nothing the banshee can do about it.
The banshee is a better combat unit in mid-game as part of an army composition, and is more common but cannot reliably be used for map control. The speed and perma-cloak feature of the DT makes it much more useful for map control, and expansion harass, but is almost completely ineffective as a combat unit because of scans, EMP, and/or the Raven.
Late and end game --------------------------------- + Show Spoiler +
The DT wins.
Its speed and perma-cloak attribute really shines in late and extreme late game scenarios where the opponents are very spread out and detection may become an issue.
Conclusion ---------------------- They are both wonderfully powerful units. They both shine in certain aspects of the game. They can both be countered and will both cause major damage as a rush play if not scouted or blind countered. For those looking for a play that is essentially a free BO win, the DT is better, for players looking for an opener than can secure a lead, or possibly a huge lead, the Banshee is better.
I hope you guys found my analysis insightful!
For the record, I voted for Banshee because I do not like relying on BO wins all that much. I'd rather have a unit that can help me create an advantage, with a little less risk, but will not just win the game.
For those saying the Banshee rush is not as "all-in" as the DT rush, I'm not sure I completely agree. If the Protoss is going three gate, or even four gate, they can warp in a robo bay and attack. The Terran who rushed to banshee will have exactly nothing by the time the first banshee pops (maybe a few marines, probably a bunker). This can be punished really hard. Both teams take massive damage.
Speaking from a zerg point of view, once you're in the midgame, banshees and DTs become almost inneffective since several Lair tech units can deal with both Banshees and DTs.
To me the early game is the only real dangerous time to see either of these units, and Banshees are 10x harder to deal with as Zerg. If you haven't made a 3rd queen and creep-connected your bases, its basically over.
lol you barely included shit about the banshee you are obviously biased. it does sick damage and DTs cant 1 hit scvs if they are ahead on armor upgrades. Banshees can own up marines and hold their own against queens and stalkers. Banshee openings are also standard which says a lot.
On March 11 2011 02:55 Zorkmid wrote: Speaking from a zerg point of view, once you're in the midgame, banshees and DTs become almost inneffective since several Lair tech units can deal with both Banshees and DTs.
To me the early game is the only real dangerous time to see either of these units, and Banshees are 10x harder to deal with as Zerg. If you haven't made a 3rd queen and creep-connected your bases, its basically over.
Banshee and DTs are good in all stages of the game. They can still hit critical structures/workers and cause zerg players to lose. I'm sure you've seen it countless time.
Anyways, I voted for Banshee because they can become a standard unit in your army even if detection is in play they still have a large amount of dps and you can micro banshee to be even better.
On March 11 2011 03:08 MuTT wrote: lol you barely included shit about the banshee you are obviously biased. it does sick damage and DTs cant 1 hit scvs if they are ahead on armor upgrades. Banshees can own up marines and hold their own against queens and stalkers. Banshee openings are also standard which says a lot.
+3 armour scvs take 47 damage from a dt, they have 45 life, watareyousmoking.jpg
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee.
dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production.
that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is.
Dark templar harrass isn't nearly as effective in the mid-to-late game, because your opponent will have detection. It doesn't even matter if you make a dark templar from each of your 8 gateways (which is 1000 minerals and 1000 gas, by the way), because they'll be nullified by turrets or cannons or spore crawlers (or actual detecting units).
The dark templar's main asset is its ability to cloak, and once that's nullified, it doesn't matter how many you produce. It would be more helpful to transition into units that have range or specialize in other areas (like those who counter whatever unit your opponent is making). The fact that you can make a lot of one unit is pointless if the unit is obejctively countered (in this case, by detection).
The problem here is that dark templar tech doesn't transition into anything except for other gateway units. That means no colossi, no void rays, etc. Protoss is stuck if they go dark templar and can't win. However, even if the banshee harrass is stopped, Terran has a bio tree, mech tree, and air tree that they've opened up. Switch a few add-ons and start production!
I see the argument. But even if Terran has Detection at every base (I guess he will have some scans at that point either way) Protoss can splitt the DT's over different bases. Terran doesnt have anti ground defences at every base. With the insane DPS of the DT there will definatly be damage. ANd I think most of the time it will be cost effective This is actually one of the main arguements PainUser has.
On March 11 2011 02:55 Zorkmid wrote: Speaking from a zerg point of view, once you're in the midgame, banshees and DTs become almost inneffective since several Lair tech units can deal with both Banshees and DTs.
To me the early game is the only real dangerous time to see either of these units, and Banshees are 10x harder to deal with as Zerg. If you haven't made a 3rd queen and creep-connected your bases, its basically over.
Banshee and DTs are good in all stages of the game. They can still hit critical structures/workers and cause zerg players to lose. I'm sure you've seen it countless time.
Anyways, I voted for Banshee because they can become a standard unit in your army even if detection is in play they still have a large amount of dps and you can micro banshee to be even better.
Agreed, DTs can be good late game, but that's only if I've fucked up and not scouted the twilight council (this usually makes me think DTs, cause I rarely go mutas, therefore blink is not coming)
I can't believe people are arguing that DTs are good late game when they are nullified by a single turret in the mineral line.
I've won games by opening DTs where I thought "well, it's not that guys fault he doesn't have detection since he had no idea what I was doing."
I've also won games 25 minutes in because I notice that my opponent didn't build a single raven or turret anywhere on the map. This is almost always PvT although sometimes Zergs are guilty of this as well.
Even against Terran late game I'll still build a cannon at each of my mineral lines just in case he decides to mix it up with Banshees or a blue flame drop.
Good players shouldn't lose to DT openings, just watch oGsMC vs IMMVP in the GSTL. MVP has 1 turret and the DTs get completely shut down. MC is so far behind by then that it's gg.
You forgot that DT Shrine is dead-end tech with a dead end unit. Starport + Tech Lab could mean anything, plus Banshees are great additions to an army. That and Banshees with no detection = GG. DTs and no detection, just scan once and build an Eng Bay. Win the game.
I take issue with this. Teching to a Dark shrine is suuuuch a long wait. building a starport then swapping it with your factory's tech lab is hardly a huge investment.
youre missing the point.
its about the production capabilites. you cant have suddenly 6 basnhees split up around the map harrassing evrywhere. but you can do a full warpin round of DTs whenever you want once the tech is ready .
also not that it matters here but the investment is the production time and the cloak research .
seriously you cant complain about a statement beeing wrong cause you miss the point and then argument against it with another wrong statement.
think people. think.
To have six dark templar immediately warped in *whenever you want*, you'd need six gateways (lol) and 750 minerals and 750 gas. Not to mention their slow cooldown time. In other words: -What are you talking about? -Does this sound feasible to you? -Do you realize that you can't actually do this in a game if you're rushing for templar tech? -Are you talking about after two bases are up, when everyone already has detection out (and therefore dark templar are far less useful anyway)? -Do you realize how all-in this is?
Think, people. Think.
and you are missing the point again.
its about the production. thats why the statement in the OP matters. thats all i say.
Your hypothetical situation isn't actually feasible (because Protoss doesn't have infinite money). They can make six gateways/ warpgates, but that doesn't mean they can warp-in six dark templar whenever they want. Units still cost money, and there are still cooldown timers. Your scenario is as feasible as having four or five starports that can all simultaneously produce a banshee (with cloak), so we're clearly not talking about the early game anymore. And four or five banshees can harrass just as easily as six dark templar (because the former can fly), but the Protoss doesn't have robo tech or air units... whereas the Terran has access to most of his tech tree because he went banshee.
dude. you always have 6+++ warpgates past early game. you almost never have 6 or even 3 techlabbed ports(for obvious reasons) . so you have the option to warpin as much DTs as you want (given the resources) when you want once the tech is ready since they are made from the basic production.
that is the point the line in the op tries to make. i dont even understand how you can argue against that nor do i see what your problem is.
Dark templar harrass isn't nearly as effective in the mid-to-late game, because your opponent will have detection. It doesn't even matter if you make a dark templar from each of your 8 gateways (which is 1000 minerals and 1000 gas, by the way), because they'll be nullified by turrets or cannons or spore crawlers (or actual detecting units).
The dark templar's main asset is its ability to cloak, and once that's nullified, it doesn't matter how many you produce. It would be more helpful to transition into units that have range or specialize in other areas (like those who counter whatever unit your opponent is making). The fact that you can make a lot of one unit is pointless if the unit is obejctively countered (in this case, by detection).
The problem here is that dark templar tech doesn't transition into anything except for other gateway units. That means no colossi, no void rays, etc. Protoss is stuck if they go dark templar and can't win. However, even if the banshee harrass is stopped, Terran has a bio tree, mech tree, and air tree that they've opened up. Switch a few add-ons and start production!
I see the argument. But even if Terran has Detection at every base (I guess he will have some scans at that point either way) Protoss can splitt the DT's over different bases. Terran doesnt have anti ground defences at every base. With the insane DPS of the DT there will definatly be damage. ANd I think most of the time it will be cost effective This is actually one of the main arguements PainUser has.
One turret and three marines (or one marauder) in every mineral line (or a PF, obviously), and dark templar are completely nullified for harrassing mineral lines. Completely nullified. I'm a Protoss player and I wish dark templar were as versatile as the banshee (or at least not dead-end tech). I understand their limitations and only use them when I think I can finish off the game with dark templar.
And again, we can't overlook the fact that dark templar is a dead end tech, whereas banshees open up all of the tech paths that Terran have to offer. You can't just go dark templar, find out that it fails, and easily transition into colossi or void rays. Going dark templar after all tech is already set up is only useful if you've somehow eliminated the detection that your opponent should already have at every base. When I get a third or fourth base, I'm throwing down two or three cannons in decent locations around my Nexus so that banshee harrass will be harder, but dark templar harrass will be impossible. Melee attack vs. ranged attack matters a lot.
In my opinion the banshee is the superior unit. However, in the lategame you aren't going to have a ton of starports which can suddenly make banshees but the toss will have a lot of warpgates. I think the strength of the DT lies in that toss can just make a few and go back to what they were doing before without too much issue.
If Terran had DT instead of Banshee they would be massive overpowered. If Terran had any melee units, then they would be much stronger.
Imagine a TvZ where the Terran had DT. You can even uncloak them for this example. The units that are good against DT (hydra/roach) get killed by marines while the units that are good against marines (baneling) do very poorly against DT.
On March 11 2011 04:51 TurtlePerson2 wrote: If Terran had DT instead of Banshee they would be massive overpowered. If Terran had any melee units, then they would be much stronger.
Imagine a TvZ where the Terran had DT. You can even uncloak them for this example. The units that are good against DT (hydra/roach) get killed by marines while the units that are good against marines (baneling) do very poorly against DT.
Why are melee units better than ranged units? You can't kite with melee units. Are you assuming you can tank damage with dark templar? lol
We Protoss will give you the dark templar if Terran gives us the marauder, k?
On March 11 2011 04:51 TurtlePerson2 wrote: If Terran had DT instead of Banshee they would be massive overpowered. If Terran had any melee units, then they would be much stronger.
Imagine a TvZ where the Terran had DT. You can even uncloak them for this example. The units that are good against DT (hydra/roach) get killed by marines while the units that are good against marines (baneling) do very poorly against DT.
I disagree strongly. Terran's strength lies in being able to kite infinitely. What's the point of a unit that can't do that? They'd get destroyed instantly because Zerg/Protoss metagame has adapted to being strong enough to (sometimes) compete against the kiting. You always see an Obs follow a lategame Toss army, but Ravens are very rare. DTs are only useful because Terran are very lazy with dedicated detection because their macro mechanic is a get out of jail free card.
i think the banshee is the better harrassment unit and might win you more games straight away, because you do not only need detection but also antiair (which is probably only an issue). however i think the DT is the more variable unit since it fits in better with the actual army and can be more effective lategame harrassing expos all over the map with very little supply.
On March 10 2011 20:22 coddan wrote: I think your pros and cons aren't very fair. You only list the good things about the DT, while you list several of the bad things about the banshee. Why would you list Startport+Tech Lab as something bad, when it's way more handicapping to tech to Dark Srhine?
my first problem with this post as well... very intellectually dishonest representation of the two.
Yup. "made from most common protoss building" I guess thats technically true but it sounds like saying:
Yea I ALWAYS have a dark shrine in my build. its pretty much a given. like a pylon bro.
Late game DT's are far, far stronger than late game DT's, too many people are trying to generalize the two units into the cheeses that incorporate each. Using DT's for map control and harassment late game is often a staple in Protoss play, whereas we only occasionally see late game Banshee harass in TvT(this often leads to a full on Banshee transition if you've won the air battle already). There have been some games lately where players are using mid to late game Banshee harass to secure minor advantages though, and it makes for very interesting games.
I think the way that the game is currently played, Banshees are a stronger cheese unit and DT's have a better place in the mid to late game, but we might see that change in the future as Terrans really begin to branch out and reach the potential of the race(something unseen as of yet).
Painuser's argument is basically that DTs are better than banshees because Terran detection is worse than Protoss detection. Whether that's true or false, it's irrelevant to the issue at hand. DTs and banshees are used in all 3 MU's.
For a more direct comparison, let's ask our Terran friends:
Do you, as a Terran player, run into cloaked banshees or DTs more often, and which do you find easier to beat?
At high levels, cloaked banshees are a fairly standard TvT opener while in PvT, a DT rush is considered cheese. I think that pretty well sums up the issue. DTs are good if your opponent screws up and gets surprised. Cloaked banshees are just plain good.
EPT![[image loading]](http://vilegaming.com/datas/resources/art/art425-Lego_Dark_Templar.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/images/news/lego_banshee.jpg)
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Maybe in HotS ^^
