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Chef
10810 Posts
On March 06 2011 19:23 Ryo wrote: Yup. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125601¤tpage=43#845 I am so angry with the people who posted that on TL as if it were truth. That story was one of the only reasons I got really mad at Savior. Otherwise his story basically checks out as someone who got used by 'friends' in the wrong circles. | ||
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Mrwl
Sweden339 Posts
 Especially upMagic's astounding TvT.... we all remember the Battlecruiser games against Flash | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Wtf is wrong with some of you... he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near SC2. His actions threatened the entire existence of proper progaming. Yet you're prepared to just 'give him a break' and forget about it. The whole match fixing business already made 2 teams disband basically, even if Estro was planning to do so anyway it certainly pushed it over the edge.... it's probably put off future sponsors as it is. For such a fragile sport in it's infancy professionally this is a terrible thing to happen. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:22 Milkis wrote: There is no evidence otherwise. AFAIK, he didn't get a penny for anything he did. There's a continuum between, "I know he didn't do it" through "I have no reason to believe he did it", "Not sure", "He got convicted for it" and "I'm absolutely sure". You could argue about which side of "Not sure" he falls to but I don't think it's fair to say he absolutely did not. It's not fair to speculate about people who might turn out to be completely innocent, but Savior got convicted for worse, so I think it's fine to say maybe. | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:39 hypercube wrote: There's a continuum between, "I know he didn't do it" through "I have no reason to believe he did it", "Not sure", "He got convicted for it" and "I'm absolutely sure". You could argue about which side of "Not sure" he falls to but I don't think it's fair to say he absolutely did not. It's not fair to speculate about people who might turn out to be completely innocent, but Savior got convicted for worse, so I think it's fine to say maybe. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=130217 Also, to people who think "Savior admitted to everything" implying that Savior meant "he was fixing matches" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129321 That was the crux of the trial. I honestly think people are too keen to jump on bandwagons. I'm no savior fan, I've never watched a single one of his games since I was way too late into the scene, but honestly, let's not jump to conclusions overall. | ||
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arcticStorm
United States295 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:47 arcticStorm wrote: I don't understand all the hate. Savior is human. He committed crimes. Extremely damaging ones. He's paying for it (some would argue not enough). But they make it sound like he should never touch BW or the Esports community again, as if he's really trying to continue match fixing. If it's true that he only arranged deals and didn't get paid for what he did, WHY would he continue doing such a thing. KT coach's comments are largely unwarranted. Best treatment of savior if you want to punish him is to not mention him and let him to continue to fade into obscurity. Not mentioning Savior ?? not possible dude he left a mark in sc bw history and it's undeniable he was the best zerg and actually the one who started all your standard zerg builds so to ignore is completely wrong . Yes he was involve in match fixing but should that impinge his image as a player who WAS the best ? I don't think so and according to punishment that he has receive the revoking of his pro gaming license and 120 community service ( i am not sure the exact hours ) is sufficient to me and if you don't agree well it's pretty subjective in my opinion . That being said match fixing is never to the level of child molestation its not proportionate at all . | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:44 Milkis wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=130217 Also, to people who think "Savior admitted to everything" implying that Savior meant "he was fixing matches" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129321 That was the crux of the trial. I honestly think people are too keen to jump on bandwagons. I'm no savior fan, I've never watched a single one of his games since I was way too late into the scene, but honestly, let's not jump to conclusions overall. Saying that he did not fix matches is jumping to conclusions, given the context. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
No-one can forbid Savior to play BW, they don't own the game. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11287 Posts
However, I personally disagree that progamers are treated like shit (low salary, forced practice crap). | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
On March 06 2011 19:01 dacthehork wrote: Wish a foreign team would pick him up for sc2. Why would you want to see him play SC2??! I agree he shouldn't be allowed to play pro BW anymore, what he did was too selfish and dangerous for a very fragile industry, but I defiantly think he should be allowed to PLAY BW. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:57 hypercube wrote: Saying that he did not fix matches is jumping to conclusions, given the context. "Innocent until proven guilty" | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
That just means they won't get convicted, not that they actually didn't commit the crime. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
(...)are worse than child molesters to me, Come on... | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 07 2011 01:19 hypercube wrote: That just means they won't get convicted, not that they actually didn't commit the crime. Again, there's nothing for you nor anyone to believe that he didn't commit the crime. So why should you? Why shouldn't I give him the benefit of the doubt regarding the matter, when there is no evidence otherwise Note my point about bandwagons. Note that the second people saw Savior's name associated with match fixing, they immediately assumed he was fixing matches even before it was clear what his role was in the entire scandal. I'm not saying that Savior isn't a douche bag because he didn't fix his own matches, hell, it makes him a bigger one for suggesting to other people to do so. I don't know why you keep going on in with this "but you don't know for SURE he didn't fix matches". Well if we go by that logic and netizen rumors (considering its how this entire process was even revealed), then Bisu also fixed his matches and you don't have a reason to think otherwise. geez. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On March 07 2011 00:33 infinity2k9 wrote: Wtf is wrong with some of you... he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near SC2. His actions threatened the entire existence of proper progaming. Yet you're prepared to just 'give him a break' and forget about it.The whole match fixing business already made 2 teams disband basically, even if Estro was planning to do so anyway it certainly pushed it over the edge.... it's probably put off future sponsors as it is. For such a fragile sport in it's infancy professionally this is a terrible thing to happen. tsk tsk tsk. Its gonna be long explaining this so i will only explain it if you ask me to, if you won't take my word for it. The thing is, the 2 teams disbanded because the korean society is just that superficial. They lack understanding in general, and thats not savior's fault. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 07 2011 01:24 Milkis wrote: Again, there's nothing for you nor anyone to believe that he didn't commit the crime. So why should you? Why shouldn't I give him the benefit of the doubt regarding the matter, when there is no evidence otherwise There's no evidence that proves he fixed his own games. There's a lot of evidence that suggests he might have. The most obvious one is that he suggested it to others, so he probably didn't think it was morally wrong. He was already risking his career, so there was no deterrent either. Right there you have the two biggest reasons why programers don't fix games in general. They think it's wrong and/or they are afraid of the consequences in case they get caught. Well if we go by that logic and netizen rumors (considering its how this entire process was even revealed), then Bisu also fixed his matches and you don't have a reason to think otherwise. geez. I wasn't going by what the netizens said. I agree that doesn't mean anything. But through his actions Savior has proven he doesn't think throwing games for money is that bad and that he doesn't mind taking stupid risks with his career. He also knew all the people he needed to to set up fixed games. If you don't think those facts don't make him more likely to sell some of his own games we'll just have to agree to disagree. | ||
white_horse
1019 Posts
On March 07 2011 01:28 frodoguy wrote: tsk tsk tsk. Its gonna be long explaining this so i will only explain it if you ask me to, if you won't take my word for it. The thing is, the 2 teams disbanded because the korean society is just that superficial. They lack understanding in general, and thats not savior's fault. ...and this is where we can see how Korean culture differs from the west. Here in America you can cheat on your wife (eliot spitzer), run an illegal dogfighting ring (michael vick), launder money (tom delay) and still appear in public. Moral values in America has decreased and people have become more lenient. I guarentee you if these people committed these acts 60 or 70 years ago, Americans would have been super pissed. Americans today don't seem to care if vick or spitzer is on TV. Well in Korea, there is no tolerance for illegal activity and once you get caught, its almost impossible to get trust back, and there is something wrong with that? Savior put a huge dent in the e-sports industry in Korea, he took out so many good players that make the scene that much more exciting and helped two teams disband...and you accuse Korean society of being "superficial"? | ||
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