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On December 01 2010 00:22 Enervate wrote:
I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW?
i agree, and that's another thing. how can people be so quick to judge such a passionate person who was also good on such a legendary level, a person who has only returned to progaming to give it another good run for as long as he can? that's not the kind of person who would desire to have their matches fixed, it tarnishes the entire motivation. for that and multiple other reasons, i just can't believe something like this to be true without convincing evidence shoved in my face
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They can only "rig" it for about the first round to assure a TvT, but after that it is just luck.
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As a long time lurker and starcraft fan, I had to sign up to chime in on this issue.
This is something that I've felt since last season's route to Boxer v Nada. How Boxer seems to have this uncanny ability to get mostly TvT, which is without a doubt his best matchup while his vZ and vP is not nearly as well rounded.
If tournament organizers have a hand in any favorable match arranging, it sours the entire game. And I am very disappointed that many people would support it simply to have their heroes advance further in the tournament so they can see more of them.
Such advantageous planning for legendary star players certainly would raise the viewership and marketability of any tournament, but is that fair to the competitors? Not at all, but that does not mean tournaments of any kind should prepare things in advance, even splitting star players or foreigners from meeting in the first round.
Random tournaments should be exactly that. If Jinro meets Idra in the first round, many viewers would be upset and demand blood, but the better player moves on and the loser tries again.
Another matter, as Plexa points out, is the odd situation where Moon has the rare Zerg map advantage against Jinro, making the possibility of Moon v Boxer all the nearer. Nothing definitive, but really strange coincidence just like Boxer's number of TvTs.
It's also surprising that some say how it's impossible to predict who will advance in each match in each round, even if the round of 64 is planned in advance, to guarantee that someone, such as Boxer will have a favorable or entertaining match in later rounds.
I'm sure most well researched liquibetters can get many results correct by knowing players histories, their strengths and weaknesses, the current map pool, etc. And if tournament organizers were trying to arrange their groups to favor some players over others in any situation, they would have more than enough information on their players to do so.
And while upsets do happen unexpectedly, that doesn't mean that every match is an upset, and typically the more favored player does advance and can be foreseen, especially if tournament brackets are selected by hand in advance.
So while I certainly hope that GOM has no part in any of this, and that this is all just a really far out sequence of random events, I personally can't help but feel there was some puppetry going on behind the scenes to guide some players into better positions or rounds for entertainment value.
It almost feels like match fixing, except instead of bribing players to lose, they are put in situations they are unlikely to win from the start for the benefit of other players.
Sorry for the really long post. It's been weighing on my mind.
And go Jinro!
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I'm sorry, are there actually people on this forum who think the brackets are randomly drawn? Seriously?
As far as I'm concerned, GOM are doing the same thing HD and Husky did for the HDH Invitational, whereby they take their list of players and then manually set up the brackets with the intention of creating the most interesting tournament they can. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
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There are a lot of accusations and rumors because GomTV had the bracket done behind the closed doors for season 2 and 3 while it wasn't the case for season 1. They should be well aware that these rumors circulate in any sports and this is precisely why there are seeds and open group selection to even out the strength of each group. It doesn't help the fact that Boxer is 0-8 in his zerg games (lost to NesTea 4-0 in GSL2 semi, lost to FruitDealer 2-0 in Blizzcon Showmatch, and lost to Kyrix 2-0 in Gstar 2010 GomTV Invitational). There obviously isn't any concrete evidence that there was any bracket fixing, but it can't go unnoticed that Boxer got relatively easy bracket in both GSL2 and 3, and we all know that success of BW legends like Boxer and Nada will undoubtedly help SC2 scene grow. There will always be conspiracy theorists, but GomTV isn't really helping either.
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Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
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On December 01 2010 00:36 cuppatea wrote:
I'm sorry, are there actually people on this forum who think the brackets are randomly drawn? Seriously?
As far as I'm concerned, GOM are doing the same thing HD and Husky did for the HDH Invitational, whereby they take their list of players and then manually set up the brackets with the intention of creating the most interesting tournament they can. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
Yeah, I HOPE nobody actually thinks the brackets are completely random.
That would be pretty foolish, especially after Junkka SAID he was part of a 6-person team who makes the brackets.
Why would they need a 6-person team to "make" the brackets if it was random.
As I am one of six people who make the brackets I am not allowed to enter GSL
http://twitter.com/junkka83/status/1949573689909248
It's -not- random. We all know this.
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On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote:
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Your example is called seeding. Since there are no seeds in GSL what they would be doing is called tournament rigging. The two are completely different. One is a objective ranking while the other is the organizers opinion of who should get the better draw.
Rigging is terrible and should never happen. They chose this format knowing full well that there would be no seeding so could see those potential clashes. Rigging a stupid format isn't how they should fix the issue.
This is under the assumption that you are saying they are in fact fixing brackets/maps. They could not be.
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This is a little upsetting but I feel like giving zergs Stepps of War all the time is even worse than giving Boxer TvT, it has completely changed my view of not allowing map vetos. I'm going to bet they will not let a zerg win without having to go through that map several times. Fruitdealer was able to handle that map and it was an epic game, but it still seemed unfair at the same time. I don't think he would have had a chance in hell if his opponent simply made more marines and less siege tanks.
Hopefully once they are past the open tournament they will have an automated and publicized way of decided brackets to avoid this shit, same with maps. They need to be picked randomly and automatically, having them be able to cherry pick maps that are horrible for certain races is sooooooooo bad for the fairness of the game.
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8748 Posts
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote:
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
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I would personally enjoy the tournament a lot more if it seemed completely fair, and the completely arbitrary bracket creation definitely makes it seem a lot less fair. Yeah, you shouldn't have Nestea v. Fruitdealer first round, but there are many better ways to make that happen. You can seed the thing based on success in prior seasons, or just have a rule against two S-class people hitting first round. You could also have a rule against hitting teammates first round if you want it, etc. I don't think anyone would have a problem with somewhat non-random brackets if they were done in a transparent way with criteria that's a little better than "what will make us the most money".
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On December 01 2010 00:47 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote:
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
What about in the first Tennis match of all time?
I bet they rigged it too.
I understand rigging is bad but it is MUCH, MUCH better than Jinro vs Ret in the first round of GSL 3.
That means one of them would go home with MAYBE Code A and have zero shot at Code S.
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On December 01 2010 00:26 Herculix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 00:22 Enervate wrote:
I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW? i agree, and that's another thing. how can people be so quick to judge such a passionate person who was also good on such a legendary level, a person who has only returned to progaming to give it another good run for as long as he can? that's not the kind of person who would desire to have their matches fixed, it tarnishes the entire motivation. for that and multiple other reasons, i just can't believe something like this to be true without convincing evidence shoved in my face
Clearly he is a fantastic player and has the potential to become the best of the best but at the same time from every ZvT I have seen from him it is is worst matchup and it seems like they are protecting him from that. I'll bet when he does hit the inevitable ZvT it will have stepps of war in the pool, guaranteed.
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It was completely obvious from day 1 of the qualifiers for the first GSL that they were "rigging" the brackets, so I have no idea why this is such a scandal now. Rigging the maps, on the other hand, I would definitely have a problem with but then there have been enough instances of big name players getting bad maps for me to believe this isn't happening.
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I've also been wondering about the maps / brackets being arranged. It seems that the more well-known players get maps that favor their race, and easy opponents. Maybe its all luck, but I think too much coincidence points to something else.
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On December 01 2010 00:29 MrMotionPicture wrote:
They can only "rig" it for about the first round to assure a TvT, but after that it is just luck.
Exactly.
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On December 01 2010 00:47 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote:
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64.
The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT.
Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
I completely agree with this, this is what I meant when I said "Meaningful rankings" (Though one could argue that viewers have a decent idea of which games will be good, but I doubt that - too many not-very-well-known players are doing good)
My point was just that, in the absence of "seeding", one could argue that giving a shot at who's the best player may not be the worst option. Otherwise, they would risk having "names" kicked off during the first round/not achieving code A/S at all.
Just saying that although the only solution is getting rankings/seedings at some point (which is, I believe, the point of their codes/scores), it's an OK temporary solution.
TL;DR: Tennis is not starcraft, I agree, but just give Gretech some time so they can compute decent rankings.
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On December 01 2010 00:49 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 00:26 Herculix wrote:On December 01 2010 00:22 Enervate wrote:
I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW? i agree, and that's another thing. how can people be so quick to judge such a passionate person who was also good on such a legendary level, a person who has only returned to progaming to give it another good run for as long as he can? that's not the kind of person who would desire to have their matches fixed, it tarnishes the entire motivation. for that and multiple other reasons, i just can't believe something like this to be true without convincing evidence shoved in my face Clearly he is a fantastic player and has the potential to become the best of the best but at the same time from every ZvT I have seen from him it is is worst matchup and it seems like they are protecting him from that. I'll bet when he does hit the inevitable ZvT it will have stepps of war in the pool, guaranteed.
Like the last 5ZvT's had SoW in their pool. In the first 2 sets even.
Still so many people think that this is coincidental.
I am not saying they are trying to get as many Terrans through as possible so Boxer would face more TvT. That would be outrageous. But they are rigging the mappools, and I use the word "rigging" because they don't acknowledge the fact that it aren't random map pools.
I think GoMTVJunkka even replied in the Live Report Thread that the maps are random generated. (EDIT: He did said it was random)
Now that is something I find highly suspicious.
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On December 01 2010 00:36 cuppatea wrote:
I'm sorry, are there actually people on this forum who think the brackets are randomly drawn? Seriously?
As far as I'm concerned, GOM are doing the same thing HD and Husky did for the HDH Invitational, whereby they take their list of players and then manually set up the brackets with the intention of creating the most interesting tournament they can. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
But there are huge problems if you're doing this in the world's most prestigeous SC2 tournament.
On December 01 2010 00:20 dcemuser wrote:
In his defense, he did win the game on Steppes of War.
I do agree that the map pool was terrible, but I just wanted to point that out.
Honestly, I think the brackets are rigged in the Round of 64 to pair no-names vs stars. However, lots of tournaments do it and it really shouldn't surprise anyone.
I mean would you want to see Jinro vs Haypro, Boxer vs Tester, Nada vs Moon, and Ret vs IdrA in the round of 64?!
I sure as hell wouldn't.
The accusation that the map pools are being rigged though... that is a big deal.
1- Does NOT change the fact that Steppes is the best fucking map for both FoxeR's style and current TvZ metagame. Game on steppes was just out fucking play.
2, 3 and 4- If you want to do this, DO THIS PROPERLY FFS. If brackets were set like UEFA Champions League system, S class players or ex BW-WC3 pros would get the first seed, A class players would get the 2nd seed etc, this seeds would be ANNOUNCED and draws would be made by actual people and televised, people wouldn't be raging like this. At least it would cause less accusations. Right?
5- Why do every single Zerg get ridiculous map pools? I mean WTF, what is the probability of 90% of zerg players get Steppes of War in their map pools with the only exceptions of Moon and JulyZerg? Oh wait. JulyZerg even had Steppes in his map pool. If this is a coincidence, I don't know shit about anything.
To everybody: You can bash KeSPA all the way you want. But what they do is fucking legit and they don't do obnoxious things to get TV ratings.
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Here's the GOM-TV OFFICIAL ANSWER ABOUT THIS.
http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?m=community&msgid=4664&c=all&p=1
아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다.
뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다.
지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서
대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다.
그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나,
불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에
어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다.
기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서
특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다
실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요
Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다.
D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다.
사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가)
혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다
대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다.
하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에
일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다.
해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지
와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다
특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면
그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요..
explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
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EPT
