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Group A Breakdown:
Terran: 6
Protoss: 3
Zerg: 7
Group B Breakdown:
Terran: 6
Protoss: 3
Zerg: 7
Group C Breakdown:
Terran: 5
Protoss: 3
Zerg: 7
Random: 1
Group D Breakdown:
Terran: 8
Protoss: 2
Zerg: 6
It looks like they balanced the races amongst the brackets as evenly as possible. Now the rigging theory comes from the fact boxer got placed in a bracket with 8 Terran players. I think it is just coincedence in this season. The fact that Nexon was listed as Z in their brackets could have thrown off the balance because if that was the case it would have been 7 Terran 2 Protoss and 7 Zerg which goes along with their theme.
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Boxer and the BW stars bring support from the fans in Korea (and outside, but obviously mainly Korea) to GOM and Blizzard there. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of monkeying around with Ro64/Ro32 possible match ups for someone like BoxeR or Nada, any of the main Stars that were expected to get S class.
Wasn't BoxeR Vs. Nada the most anticpiated match so far? SC2 needs to get a leg up on support from the Korean fanbase, and since there isn't one person dominating GSL, for now they'll use BoxeR.
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On December 01 2010 01:02 namedplayer wrote:Here's the GOM-TV OFFICIAL ANSWER ABOUT THIS. http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?m=community&msgid=4664&c=all&p=1아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요.. explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
Here's my quick translation.
If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it.
There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves.
We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses.
Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc.
Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
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It seems they are trying too hard to prove how unrigged things were...
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On December 01 2010 01:28 DentThat wrote:
It seems they are trying too hard to prove how unrigged things were...
That's just as baseless as the claims you're arguing they're making.
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It is not professional to manually place players into certain match ups based on some arbitrary conditions. You either have a seeded tournament, or a full out random bracket, with the drawings being filmed officially as proof (like Champions League group drawings).
However, from a marketing standpoint, seeing as how the league just started, it makes sense for them to try and provide the most exciting match ups possible and not placing favourites against each other that early. Also, if they admit they manually placed them, that makes it better, since it removes the whole shadiness aspect out of it.
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On December 01 2010 01:26 sihyunie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 01:02 namedplayer wrote:Here's the GOM-TV OFFICIAL ANSWER ABOUT THIS. http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?m=community&msgid=4664&c=all&p=1아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요.. explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this. Here's my quick translation. If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it. There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves. We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses. Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc. Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
This only makes me feel more uneasy because of how stupidly easy it is to prove they are not rigged.
You draw maps from a box, there is one item per map, you draw for the full 3/5/7 games at once. Either it's rigged and they're at huge risk of pulling the same map twice, or it's not rigged. Sure you could still probably find a way to rig this with some magician like trickery, but it's a million times better than "you'll just think it's rigged anyways so we'll continue doing it behind closed doors".
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On December 01 2010 01:26 sihyunie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 01:02 namedplayer wrote:Here's the GOM-TV OFFICIAL ANSWER ABOUT THIS. http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?m=community&msgid=4664&c=all&p=1아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요.. explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this. Here's my quick translation. If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it. There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves. We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses. Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc. Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
This is always going to be the problem with this kind of thing. People can claim whatever they want because there's almost never a way to absolutely prove that everything was fair. I know some will call me naive for it but I believe them.
I feel that some people need to realize that because anything happens, it doesn't mean it's rigged. Take the Nada vs Boxer game that keeps getting brought up. Some people are saying it was rigged that they would play. Well why not in the finals? Why not in the semi finals? What about the theory that it's good not to have top players have games before the end of the tournament? What about keeping them both in the tournament for as long as possible to keep fans of each watching as long as possible? Not everything is a conspiracy. What situation would it take to make people say "ok it's not rigged"? I bet you it would take 2 top players playing eachother in the round of 64. But then people would probably say they just rigged that match to show they don't rig matches...
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Agree with MementoMori for the most part, mostly because i don't want to believe GOM is screwing things up. Frankly, I don't really think the evidence is conclusive for either side of the argument so i'm just going with my instinct.
However, i did wanna make a point about why fixing brackets is not a good idea, no matter what kind of 'marketing' bullshit you try and dress it up in. If you want to grow a genuine sport (which i assume most TL users want to see) you have to treat it properly. It should be about legitimate competition and the fan favourite should have to make his way through the brackets like everyone else. If you just want to see NaDa vs BoxeR, that's fine, but do it as a showmatch or whatever, don't doctor the tournament's format and damage the legitimacy of the tournament as a whole.
Just to be clear, i don't think GOMtv is doing that, but I saw a few people saying they wouldn't mind if they did and i wanted to show why that is absolutely NOT okay.
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two GSLs isn't enough time to make this call. considering the larger number of terran qualifiers than zerg or protoss qualifiers, it could more than easily be coincidental. however, if we notice that say, 5 seasons from now, that Boxer is still playing something like 80-90% TvTs, then it would be safe to suspect match rigging.
it's always good to take a few courses in statistics. if your sample size isn't large enough, you don't have enough information to make any sort of judgment. It's like if i surveyed two people as to who they will vote for in the 2012 election and they both say Obama, so i published a report saying there is a 100% chance Obama will win the next election.
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I thought that GOM only makes the bracket for Ro64 . Every other round should be determined by that bracket .
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I don't doubt it, and I don't blame them.
More Boxer games = more exposure for GSL. It's just good business.
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On December 01 2010 01:52 MementoMori wrote:
Take the Nada vs Boxer game that keeps getting brought up. Some people are saying it was rigged that they would play. Well why not in the finals? Why not in the semi finals? What about the theory that it's good not to have top players have games before the end of the tournament? What about keeping them both in the tournament for as long as possible to keep fans of each watching as long as possible? Not everything is a conspiracy. What situation would it take to make people say "ok it's not rigged"? I bet you it would take 2 top players playing eachother in the round of 64. But then people would probably say they just rigged that match to show they don't rig matches...
FYI: I don't believe that the brackets were rigged, but I can come up with a reasonable explanation as to why BoxeR and Nada met in the Ro8.
There was no garantuee that BoxeR and Nada would make it far into the tournament, yet a match between the two was still highly desirable to lure in viewers. So you want them to meet earlier, rather than later. On the other hand, the earlier you make the two meet, the sooner you're garantueed to lose one of them. Now, reaching the Ro8 garantuees code S for the 2011 GSL. So by letting BoxeR and Nada meet in the Ro8, GOM could optimize between making sure that both players would get alot of games to play (by achieving code S) and minimizing the chance of one of them getting knocked out before their targeted duel. A BoxeR vs Nada final was much less likely to happen than a BoxeR vs Nada Ro8.
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You guys can try and justify protecting your Boxers, your Rets, your IdrAs. But what about the next potential Jaedong trying to make his mark on the scene, the new guy who practiced hard to get that far into the tournament so he could get a sponsored team and make a bit of extra cash, only to be the victim of getting into constant brackets/unfavorable map pools vs more popular players just so they could have a higher chance of progressing further? Would you not feel betrayed, especially after that speech about GOM supporting people who are looking to pursue a career in e-sports?
Don't think that is very healthy for the e-sports community. No offense, but I don't get why people feel that foreigners should get special treatment, other than to favor the foreign community watching. I mean they deserve a lot of respect for going over to Korea and participating, but that is not enough to justify any form of favoritism to be given - many of the lesser known Koreans can give them a run for their money.
PS - I get the feeling that some of the mods are also interested in this subject, since a couple of them have replied, I guess even they are also a little suspicious - they generally frown on any conspriacy theory threads without any backing.
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On December 01 2010 02:17 IntoTheEmo wrote:
You guys can try and justify protecting your Boxers, your Rets, your IdrAs. But what about the next potential Jaedong from making his mark on the scene, the new guy who practiced hard to get that far into the tournament so he could get a sponsored team and make a bit of extra cash, only to be the victim of getting into constant brackets/unfavorable map pools vs more popular players just so they could have a higher chance of progressing further? Would you not feel betrayed, especially after that speech about GOM supporting people who are looking to pursue a career in e-sports?
Don't think that is very healthy for the e-sports community. No offense, but I don't get why people feel that foreigners should get special treatment, other than to favor the foreign community watching. I mean they deserve a lot of respect for going over to Korea and participating, but that is not enough to justify any form of favoritism to be given - many of the lesser known Koreans can give them a run for their money.
PS - I get the feeling that some of the mods are also interested in this subject, since a couple of them have replied, I guess even they are also a little suspicious - they generally frown on any conspriacy theory threads without any backing.
This, so much. It is detrimental to the health of esports. It is absurd to expect every brood war star to automatically be a SC2 star, and then to make the brackets help this along.
It's extremely plausible that players who couldn't go far in BW due to mechanics can dominate SC2 by having a better understanding of strategy.
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I don't think the brackets are rigged, but the round of 64 is probably planned out. And as mentioned earlier; the result of the matches can be hard to foresee since both players has a chance to advance, there may be a "favored" player, but it's still a possibility.
However i find the map setups for season 3 a little suspicious. It often seems to favor a certain race (unless i'm misstaken or just to "into" my own theory). In my opinion, there should be one map that favors each one of the involved races and one neutral map, unless there is possible to present "only" neutral maps in each one of the matches.
For an example, in a ZvT: Xel'Naga Caverns, Scrap Station, Stepps of War.
This looks like a fair map setup to me, even if i would prefer all maps to be "perfectly balanced" for all races, if possible.
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On November 30 2010 13:31 DentThat wrote:SlayersBoxer's best match up is undoubtedly his TvT and GOM knows this. They are always placing him in that matchup to try and keep him around for as long as possible. From a business standpoint, I can definitely see this to be viable. He brings in the viewers. So far in all of his GSL matches, 7 out of 9 were TvT (the other 2 being a TvP and TvZ, which he lost the latter) SOURCE: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.php?page=1&cate=&keyfield=all&key=SlayerSBoxeRHis upcoming match in the Ro32 for GSL3 is also a TvT That's 80% TvT, 10% TvP, 10% TvZ over 2 seasons! EDIT:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 14:41 cablesc wrote:
Boxer played a lot of TvT's in season 2 because, guess what, there were a lot of terrans. 29 terrans out of 64 players Just because there were a lot of T's doesn't mean there were a lot of TvT's. In the GSL3, RO64, theres only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it! I'm not hating on the legend or disrespecting GomTV (I have paid for 2 seasons so far and I love it) Just wanted to point out this find that I thought to be a little peculiar 
Successful troll is successful troll.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I actually enjoy participating in this thread, it's a pretty good read - it really shows how the different people on TL view what e-sports should be like, and I have to say that I am pretty worried about what I'm seeing.
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Didn't NesTea play like 4 sets of ZvZ? It's a bit suspicious but could be a coincidence.
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EPT
