SlayersBoxer's best match up is undoubtedly his TvT and GOM knows this. They are always placing him in that matchup to try and keep him around for as long as possible. From a business standpoint, I can definitely see this to be viable. He brings in the viewers.
His upcoming match in the Ro32 for GSL3 is also a TvT
That's 80% TvT, 10% TvP, 10% TvZ over 2 seasons!
EDIT:
On November 30 2010 14:41 cablesc wrote: Boxer played a lot of TvT's in season 2 because, guess what, there were a lot of terrans. 29 terrans out of 64 players
Just because there were a lot of T's doesn't mean there were a lot of TvT's.
In the GSL3, RO64, theres only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1
In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it!
I'm not hating on the legend or disrespecting GomTV (I have paid for 2 seasons so far and I love it) Just wanted to point out this find that I thought to be a little peculiar
since GSL is new, i don't mind if they use these little cheats to support ESPORTS, but once the scene stabilizes, I hope they stop this if they are doing it on purpose.
Interesting theory. I'm gonna try to calculate the likelyhood of that being completely random. Will report back in this post.
Back: The brackets are preset, so it's not like the person playing against Boxer can be pre-set after the ro64. However, it's interesting to note that both ro64 matches for Boxer was TvT, and his quarter of the bracket always has the most Terren players. That's not enough to imply a conspiracy though.
First of all, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ro64 matches are planned and indeed not random (no foreigners killing one another, no legends killing one another, and Boxer gets the TvT).
However, using the "facts" of GSL2 where Boxer gets the Ro16 and Ro8 TvT matches aren't actual reasons of set-up. Again, they gave Boxer and Nada an easyish bracket (only real name was Loner) so they had a decent chance of meeting up in Ro8 - other than that it ENTIRELY depends on how the other contestants play...Boxer could have been rolled by Core, nobody knows - since Core was NOT expected to beat Bless (which would have given Boxer a TvT in Ro32), Loner could have and indeed ALMOST lost to Terrious in Round of 32, which would give Boxer a ZvT.
The only "fact" you have is that the Ro64 are planned - and in fact, it benefits not just Boxer but the foreigners and all the legends as well.
Trust me you wouldn't want to watch BabyWerra make it into the round of 32 anyway.
That's some pretty heavy accusations out there . Honestly, I don't think it matters at all. The fact that he is strong in TvT doesn't mean that his opponents are weak in TvT. In fact, his opponents have made into RO32 so skill-wise they have been tested.
Certainly, he plays better against T than Z but that doesn't mean that other Terrans cannot take him out!
On November 30 2010 13:38 PartyBiscuit wrote: First of all, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ro64 matches are planned and indeed not random (no foreigners killing one another, no legends killing one another, and Boxer gets the TvT).
True, true. I think everyone is pretty aware of this and is fine with it because it's not just 1 person they are pushing. And me personally as a fan, I'm very happy GOM is doing this.
Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
While they probably gave him a favourble RO64, it becomes much harder to 'manipulate' it beyond that. New players pop up each season who suprise everybody and go deep into the series, knocking out favourites on the way
I dunno, just looking at the brackets over the three GSLs, the only things obvious to me are that:
1) They distribute the races evenly between the brackets 2) They make it so that "name" players don't face each other in the first round
I don't think Boxer is the only player who benefits from this though, none of the top players really want to play anyone "good" in their first round. If it was truly random, then there would be an uproar on TL if for example two foreigners got paired together, or a foreigner had to play Nestea or Foxer in the first round.
As for the TvT...your theory seems likely, but we don't have any real proof. Boxer's ro32 opponent could have been a Zerg or a Terran, and same for his potential ro16 opponent. If they really wanted to rig it then they would keep Zergs out of that side of the bracket...
well the point is , the only Balanced early/mid/late game Matchup for Terran is TvT lol.even with emperor being best in TvT , think he lost like 100% of Zs ,wich makes me think Blizzard should patch this stupid matchup very fast . dont blame GOMTV , blame matchup imo
It's human nature to find patterns and coincidences in random data. I'd suggest holding back a little on the accusations of wide-scale conspiracy based on a few scraps of flimsy data.
yea pretty obvious they rigged the bracket and i think it has been said before that the brackets are "made" so it's an open secret and not something that is hidden.
I don't mind it actually because i don't think rigging the bracket benefit anyone in particular. Everyone is an unknown quantity Like you would probably prefer playing against Nestea compared to someone like Zenio before GSL 2. Or you'll prefer playing against Bitbybit rather than Rainbow. But turns out Rainbow got destroyed by NewDawn who got destroyed by Bitbybit.
So yea i don't mind them rigging the bracket because i don't think it does anything in terms of giving someone an "easier" path. Rigging the map though is something that i despise.
Pretty sure even David Kim already said that they know their maps are bad and that the maps are made to offer good ladder experience ( i.e you get varieties and not so much balance). So I don't see why GOM insist on having all maps featured or rigging the maps to favour a particular player.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Plexa wrote: Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
funny, i was also thinking this, and what the OP is thinking. I'm sure a lot of people have been.
On November 30 2010 13:56 drewbie.root wrote: yea man, i'm sure they rigged every single round so that a terran would always be his opponent, are you stupid?
They made the probability significant without it being utterly obvious like a 100% Terran bracket. The fact that big name players seem to miss each other till the later stages of the GSL for 3 seasons seems a bit too coincidental.
No-one is arguing it's a bad move though, no need to call people stupid.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Plexa wrote: Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
How RIDICULOUS would it be if Jinro defeats the icon of WC3 and then the icon of SC1?
the maps for jinro vs moon arent too great for terran either... aside from xel naga, their matches include blistering sands and scrap station (most ppl would agree that these are zerg favored maps).
Boxer had 6 zergs in his bracket. And he's got quality players like MVP, Idra, Check, and some wildcards like Drug (who beat Sangho in the qualifiers, so he was no chump), Moon and Jinro. Boxer could quite possibly play moon in the ro16, and then either Idra or Check in the ro8. Did Gomtv give Boxer a favorable ro64? Possibly, but even Hopetorture lost to an unknown so you never know what will happen.
On November 30 2010 14:04 donut boi wrote: the maps for jinro vs moon arent too great for terran either... aside from xel naga, their matches include blistering sands and scrap station (most ppl would agree that these are zerg favored maps).
ASSUMING this was true, i'd hope this doesn't go further as it could end up like MBCGame and Warcraft3 and ultimately be harmful to the korean scene, and with the weakened BW scene this would be horrible.
On November 30 2010 13:56 drewbie.root wrote: yea man, i'm sure they rigged every single round so that a terran would always be his opponent, are you stupid?
They made the probability significant without it being utterly obvious like a 100% Terran bracket. The fact that big name players seem to miss each other till the later stages of the GSL for 3 seasons seems a bit too coincidental.
No-one is arguing it's a bad move though, no need to call people stupid.
Thank you! And here I was, rooting for Drewbie in the MLG's... ;P
On November 30 2010 13:52 Plexa wrote: Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
Jinro vs Moon will be edge-of-seat suspense then. And please go back to answering our questions in the PvZ thread Plexa! lol
i get the motivation for ratings, but that just seems kind of kespa-ish to me. kills the spirit of competition imo.
On November 30 2010 13:56 drewbie.root wrote: yea man, i'm sure they rigged every single round so that a terran would always be his opponent, are you stupid?
User was temp banned for this post.
You really need to adjust your attitude. These kinds of abrasive posts are really not constructive. I also feel you may have missed the point of what the OP was trying to say.
Edit: lol the red writing wasn't there when I clicked quote :O gj mods.
If GOM wants "random" maps and "random" matchups, let players pull lots / roll for them on their own, not the "random match generator" behind closed doors pick the matches :p
On November 30 2010 13:52 Plexa wrote: Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
How RIDICULOUS would it be if Jinro defeats the icon of WC3 and then the icon of SC1?
Of course Gom rigs the brackets. They want popular players to do well so they get more viewers. I have no problem with it. SC2 is young and needs that initial kickstart to really get on its feet.
As soon as the whole S class A class thing starts happening there will be no need to rig anything anymore.
Honestly, does it really matter? You don't see people bitching about all the foreigners getting multiple bys in their preliminary matches and at most one decent Korean in order to qualify. How many season tickets do you think GOM would sell if no foreigners qualified for any of their seasons.
If GOM wants to "manipulate" their brackets for the first three seasons of GSL for business reasons, it's their prerogative.
Once the "real" tournaments start, it's not really going to matter anyways.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Plexa wrote: Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
True, but can you really blame them? Moon vs Boxer will bring in a crazy amount of viewers. At least the matches aren't fixed, right?
On November 30 2010 14:18 DentThat wrote: Your findings don't really correlate here Grebliv...
Cmon now, 8 out of 10 (including the upcoming Ro32) is TvT for Boxer.
Does 80% TvT, 10% TvP, 10% TvZ over 2 seasons not seem suspicious?
You can't rig an entire tournament. After the first round, you can't predict what players will advance. Boxer played a lot of TvT's in season 2 because, guess what, there were a lot of terrans. 29 terrans out of 64 players. And before GSL 2, he said that his weakest matchup was TvP, and he ended up playing a TvP in the ro 32.
This season, he's still got a chance to run up against zergs in the ro16 (Moon) and ro8 (Check or Idra). That doesn't sound like protecting Boxer, to me.
If anything GomTV needs to rig the games to stop rushes. Like make it so players spawn on opposite sides of metalopolis. Rushes are too boring to watch - need more epic battles.
You know what is a conspiracy though - Artosis looks like Beaker from The Muppets, and Beaker was voiced by a zergling. Artosis plays zerg as his race. What are the chances of that?
ROFL @ theherder2, and Fenn the nature of true randomness is impossible for humans....there is always some kind of pattern which is probably why people seem to pick up on it or see things which are not always there (Not saying that there isn't anything fishy with GOM, tbh i don't care as long as Moon carves up!)
well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
I think sc2 has the potential to be a great esports game, but the way blizz and gom went about it is too artificial.
1. It needs to be balanced... 2. It needs to be legitimate.
Why should certain players get special treatment in a new game? That ruins the integrity of the competition. I mean people have their personal biases but do you really want someone to get the deck stacked in his favor just because you like him? How is that sporting at all?
I wish these first 3 GSLs were done completely legitimate and fair.
I don't mind them eventually using seedings and such, but transparency ensures a legitimate competition, and they aren't transparent at all.
And obviously with the consistency of how their brackets are arranged each season it is pretty obvious they are trying to get certain big names to go as far as they can in the tourney to hype it up.
Stacking the deck to give people higher chances to win might not be as bad as rigging a match to guarantee an outcome, but it is basically along that same mentality.
It is not okay, but it is understandable. I mean there is a lot of fishy stuff going on, like moon getting z maps and several other things people have pointed out in this thread. Maybe it's god, who knows, all I know is if FA does not win I want boxer to win. I hope he gets all TvT rig it GOM! Although it would be TvZ if FA lost, but there is no way FA will lose to moon.
Though i dont believe you are right, in fact i think you're terribly wrong(if you were right, i wouldnt be surprised though), this is not uncommon in professional sport's, take tennis for example, they usually set up the better players against garbage(not really garbage, but you know what i mean) players, to make sure that the 2 best players have a chance of getting to the final and versing each other, why do you think theres so many federer v nadal matches, why dont they ever vs. each other first round? if anyone else makes it to the final, thats fine, but they give every opportunity for the better players to get there, and dont make it an impossibility.
i already got banned for pointing out a logical conclusion, im surprised OP hasnt either. guess Hot_Bid just doesn't like me.
Well, you have Boxer getting an easy time through, but on the flipside, there are also other peculiar sections of the bracket. In GSL2, FruitDealer was matched up against MarineKing (Fake BoxeR) in the Ro32. At the time, MarineKing was the #1 player on the ladder. If the whole bracket was stacked, why would they want FruitDealer to face the top ladder player so early?
This pseudo-seeding seems all right for now. I suppose when the GSL league begins next year, they'll seed based on results, so Boxer would almost be a mid-carder unless he advances far in GSL3.
hard to rig. you'd have to make sure BoxeR's RO32 opponent wins his RO64 matchup to meet him etc. and the same would have to apply his opponent in RO16 opponent who would have to win the previous two matchups and so on.
I would be angry if NaDa fights BoxeR in Round64, or even worse, in the preliminary rounds, so I want them to setup the tournament.
BoxeR was lucky to get a lot of his favourite matchup for GSL2, I don't think GomTV set it up after Round64, except if all the non Terran players involved were bribed to lose. And there's no guarantee that he won't be beaten today either.
I don't like the no map veto rules though, especially when some maps are favouring different races.
I think when we saw the Round of 64 match-ups with the tiny amount of TvTs and ZvZs, and how pretty much everything else was a TvZ... The chances of that distribution were probably the lowest of all.
Nah, I assume they're tweaking the match-ups, and proceed from there.
I find this hard to believe, how does r64 selection happen? Is it random draw or they just publish a bracket each time? To be fair I've seen a random player get the same race 7-8 times in a row on bw, can't remember the exact number. Odds were pretty slim but from his words it happened more than once or twice.
guys terran he met in ro 64 was not a push over so is polt prime in ro 32. poltprime took out oGsMC in season1, then lost to oGsTOP. i think ro32 will be a great match up. also ro 64 for polt was against zerg. if that zerg was like leenock ( person who was not amazing in season2 against nada), it woulda been Boxer vs Zerg (who is like leenock..).
I don't see how you can claim to not be disrespecting GomTV when you're clearly implying they are running a biased tournament, I can't think of any bigger disrespect to a tournament organiser :s
That being said 9 games is not a large enough sample, even 200 games wouldn't be enough of a sample to "prove" something like this.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Klamity wrote: The current ratio in TvT is 50% T wins. I think it's an extremely fair matchup.
Sorry had to laugh a bit.
Sounds like you're implying that 50% of the time nobody wins in TvT. Lol!
I don't think there's any fixing beyond first rounds really. I mean, he wouldn't face a terran in the next round if the terran had lost it. Only the first round can be 100% fixed as terran, unless there was another tvt right beside him.
On November 30 2010 13:34 Whole wrote: since GSL is new, i don't mind if they use these little cheats to support ESPORTS, but once the scene stabilizes, I hope they stop this if they are doing it on purpose.
pretty much exactly the same way i think about it;)
Don't really buy the whole setting up in favor for him. If you look at the brackets he could have faced a zerg in r032 had the guy won (nspjoon). Even in tvt's he still has to win vs good opponents to continue on in the tournament anyways.
Intresting, Kind of reminds me of MAKOTO NAGANO on the TV show Ninja Warrior. He's like a hero on that show and when he messes up and falls on the obstacle course everyone is just so sad, its like they want him to have another try.
but if it is.............it will really hurt GOMtv and probably give OGN and MBC a lot of ammunition in the court case against them (even if it isnt relevant)
I don't doubt the brackets are very meticulously made though. Even John admits they try not to put teammates against each other. Wouldn't surprise me if they also try to give a player like Boxer an easy bracket on purpose.
On November 30 2010 15:49 Lobo2me wrote: SlayersBoxer vs Nada in RO8 in GSL2 instead of possibly meeting in the finals shows that they don't rig the brackets perfectly though.
Not so.
Boxer vs. Nada finals was a long shot. Boxer vs. Nada in Ro8, the first bracket for which matches are settled with a best-of-five, was not.
Sorry, but you fail to understand the concept of "seeding". It's used in real sports too, like tennis for example.
How epic would a Round 1 game between Nadal and Federer in Wimbledon be ? Nobody would care about the tournament after that round because the remaining player will most likely win (apart from upsets that do happen of course!).
The only real scandal would be when the OUTCOME of the matches would be fixed by GOMTV. But I really don't think they do that here. We have seen far too many upsets and losing on purpose CONVINCINGLY (like, you build units and the game is actually very very close and exciting) is hard to do. You might just play a little too good (to make it more exciting) and then you cannot lose anymore because that would be obvious to every spectator that the outcome was fixed then.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Klamity wrote: The current ratio in TvT is 50% T wins. I think it's an extremely fair matchup.
actually its 100% T wins, you fail at basic math
No you do. Say you have 3 TvT's, theres 6 T's playing, 3 win, so terrans win 3 games but terrans also lose 3 games, hence terran having a 50% winning percentage.
Its simply business, Boxer brings in so many viewers why wouldn't they slightly manipulate the brackets to keep him around. You didn't happen to see any potential S class players play each other in the qualifiers. If anything we should be glad that they are doing all of this, because it will ensure an amazing S class when this season ends.
I think it was Genius who said that Boxer's TvP was pretty good, and you can imagine why if he gets to micro his MM and dropships and whatnot. I don't think he's by any means a 1 trick TvT pony, his TvZ just suffers because he prob doesn't have the macro to win a late game(yea yea balance arguments aside).
Even if the Brackets are fixed, I think overall the brackets are excellent.... none of the shenanigans that we see EG Machine have to deal with at MLG. However I think they are legit and that just ends up being the luck of the draw
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
10000% agree.
Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked.
Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance.
From a GSL thread,
On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote: " I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words. <3
If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything).
Here's an example.
You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).
Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.
Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being:
How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds.
If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this.
Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
I get the opinion you are saying IntoTheEmo, but regardless of bracket fixing.... if you deserve to win the tournament you win all of your matches it's that simple. Sure last season we could've saw fruitdealer run further if he didnt meet MarineKing earlier, or TLO could've had an easier match. However.... you can tell by the brackets that it's pretty much solid brackets, none of the ro64s are overtly close between two titans or two of the same people. Which the exception of Leenock vs Clide.
I think people always over-read the fixing of this and that and try to attribute to their own paranoia. Once a week i swear I see some poster claiming "fixed" or some ridiculous attribution to why this and this went on. I think we will never be able to prove they are fixing it and even if they are fixing the bracket they are obviously doing it in a very balanced way.....
On November 30 2010 16:36 adeezy wrote: I get the opinion you are saying IntoTheEmo, but regardless of bracket fixing.... if you deserve to win the tournament you win all of your matches it's that simple. Sure last season we could've saw fruitdealer run further if he didnt meet MarineKing earlier, or TLO could've had an easier match. However.... you can tell by the brackets that it's pretty much solid brackets, none of the ro64s are overtly close between two titans or two of the same people. Which the exception of Leenock vs Clide.
I think people always over-read the fixing of this and that and try to attribute to their own paranoia. Once a week i swear I see some poster claiming "fixed" or some ridiculous attribution to why this and this went on. I think we will never be able to prove they are fixing it and even if they are fixing the bracket they are obviously doing it in a very balanced way.....
But see that's the thing, every advancement through the rounds increases your prize money by a lot more. It's not just about winning the entire thing; not everyone expects to win, but every round counts. And if the newcomers/rookies get screwed by the tournament even during an earlier round, that's hundreds or thousands of dollars on line here, and if found guilty of doing it, well I guess that would be a huge turn off for new blood to participate -> bad for e-sports.
Once again I stress that I'm not accusing GOM of rigging, just a "what if" followed by an opinion of such a situation and why I disagree with the support people are giving "if" they "did" do it.
Everyone seems to be coming from the viewers point of view. Yeah more viewers are nice sure, but players should be the priority of any e-sport.
Junkka himself said that he was involved in compiling the RO64 and couldn't participate because of that right? Pretty obvious that it's rigged, but I don't mind, since there're always upsets in a tournament (Look at ITR, Clide and TheWind). Actually, Leenock and Clide have both been in RO16 (and clide even in RO8 I believe).
If there would be more exciting matchups at the start, they would have more viewers for RO64 matches. Now they postpone everything to later in the tournament, so that they have more viewers then. The amount of viewers stays the same, it's just another way of spreading them in the tournament.
On November 30 2010 16:36 adeezy wrote: I get the opinion you are saying IntoTheEmo, but regardless of bracket fixing.... if you deserve to win the tournament you win all of your matches it's that simple. Sure last season we could've saw fruitdealer run further if he didnt meet MarineKing earlier, or TLO could've had an easier match. However.... you can tell by the brackets that it's pretty much solid brackets, none of the ro64s are overtly close between two titans or two of the same people. Which the exception of Leenock vs Clide.
I think people always over-read the fixing of this and that and try to attribute to their own paranoia. Once a week i swear I see some poster claiming "fixed" or some ridiculous attribution to why this and this went on. I think we will never be able to prove they are fixing it and even if they are fixing the bracket they are obviously doing it in a very balanced way.....
But see that's the thing, every advancement through the rounds increases your prize money by a lot more. It's not just about winning the entire thing; not everyone expects to win, but every round counts. And if the newcomers/rookies get screwed by the tournament even during an earlier round, that's hundreds or thousands of dollars on line here, and if found guilty of doing it, well I guess that would be a huge turn off for new blood to participate -> bad for e-sports.
Once again I stress that I'm not accusing GOM of rigging, just a "what if" followed by an opinion of such a situation and why I disagree with the support people are giving "if" they "did" do it.
To be honest I'd rather see the smaller guys the new cormers and rookies lose int he earlier round than have the titans clash earlier. We didn't expect MarineKing to beat Fruit Dealer but he did. Upsets are what make it even more interesting. I bet they didn't expect Rainbow to lose this early (no one did of course), but this is what makes it all that much more interesting. That's how seeds work usually anyways... They make it so the bigger name players face each other in later rounds
And to the post above. just wanted to respond real quick. I actually think this was the most entertaining round of 64 of all the GSLs. There was the rainbow game upset (GS HELL, tasteless made me laugh hardcore ont hat one). Clide vs Leenock, and there was also that really really entertaining protoss who went for chronoboosting to 20 probes and getting a fast nexus.... to a really awesome army comp. This GSL has been really enjoyable for me
On November 30 2010 16:36 adeezy wrote: I get the opinion you are saying IntoTheEmo, but regardless of bracket fixing.... if you deserve to win the tournament you win all of your matches it's that simple. Sure last season we could've saw fruitdealer run further if he didnt meet MarineKing earlier, or TLO could've had an easier match. However.... you can tell by the brackets that it's pretty much solid brackets, none of the ro64s are overtly close between two titans or two of the same people. Which the exception of Leenock vs Clide.
I think people always over-read the fixing of this and that and try to attribute to their own paranoia. Once a week i swear I see some poster claiming "fixed" or some ridiculous attribution to why this and this went on. I think we will never be able to prove they are fixing it and even if they are fixing the bracket they are obviously doing it in a very balanced way.....
But see that's the thing, every advancement through the rounds increases your prize money by a lot more. It's not just about winning the entire thing; not everyone expects to win, but every round counts. And if the newcomers/rookies get screwed by the tournament even during an earlier round, that's hundreds or thousands of dollars on line here, and if found guilty of doing it, well I guess that would be a huge turn off for new blood to participate -> bad for e-sports.
Once again I stress that I'm not accusing GOM of rigging, just a "what if" followed by an opinion of such a situation and why I disagree with the support people are giving "if" they "did" do it.
To be honest I'd rather see the smaller guys the new cormers and rookies lose int he earlier round than have the titans clash earlier. We didn't expect MarineKing to beat Fruit Dealer but he did. Upsets are what make it even more interesting. I bet they didn't expect Rainbow to lose this early (no one did of course), but this is what makes it all that much more interesting. That's how seeds work usually anyways... They make it so the bigger name players face each other in later rounds
And to the post above. just wanted to respond real quick. I actually think this was the most entertaining round of 64 of all the GSLs. There was the rainbow game upset (GS HELL, tasteless made me laugh hardcore ont hat one). Clide vs Leenock, and there was also that really really entertaining protoss who went for chronoboosting to 20 probes and getting a fast nexus.... to a really awesome army comp. This GSL has been really enjoyable for me
That's what you (and arguably what most people) would want to see, but see, it's not a question of viewership/numbers. Is it right to send rookies out as sacrificial lambs to the big players? (Having a random selection is one thing, but fixing it to be so doesn't seem fair to the player to me).
That's the point myself (and travis presumably) want to bring across. It's about the players, not the entertainment value, which people seem to want to put priority on to at the moment.
On November 30 2010 13:31 DentThat wrote: More facts: In the GSL3, RO64, theres only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1
In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it!
These aren't facts. They're statistical anomalies. The only way they could be rigged is if the players actually threw games. Otherwise, you can't guarantee which players will get through to each round. In GSL 2 for instance, Loner went 2-1 against a protoss and a zerg in the ro64 and ro32, one more loss in either set and he's gone. Nada played a tough 2-1 match vs Leenock, who is looking like he could be one of the top zergs in GSL 3. Two games that go another way and Boxer would have played only 1 TvT in the tournament.
Also before GSL 2 Boxer said that his weakest match was TvP. In the ro32 he faced up against a protoss. If they're rigging things for Boxer, why give him his weakest matchup in the ro32 and risk him losing out of the tournament.
On November 30 2010 16:36 adeezy wrote: I get the opinion you are saying IntoTheEmo, but regardless of bracket fixing.... if you deserve to win the tournament you win all of your matches it's that simple. Sure last season we could've saw fruitdealer run further if he didnt meet MarineKing earlier, or TLO could've had an easier match. However.... you can tell by the brackets that it's pretty much solid brackets, none of the ro64s are overtly close between two titans or two of the same people. Which the exception of Leenock vs Clide.
I think people always over-read the fixing of this and that and try to attribute to their own paranoia. Once a week i swear I see some poster claiming "fixed" or some ridiculous attribution to why this and this went on. I think we will never be able to prove they are fixing it and even if they are fixing the bracket they are obviously doing it in a very balanced way.....
But see that's the thing, every advancement through the rounds increases your prize money by a lot more. It's not just about winning the entire thing; not everyone expects to win, but every round counts. And if the newcomers/rookies get screwed by the tournament even during an earlier round, that's hundreds or thousands of dollars on line here, and if found guilty of doing it, well I guess that would be a huge turn off for new blood to participate -> bad for e-sports.
Once again I stress that I'm not accusing GOM of rigging, just a "what if" followed by an opinion of such a situation and why I disagree with the support people are giving "if" they "did" do it.
To be honest I'd rather see the smaller guys the new cormers and rookies lose int he earlier round than have the titans clash earlier. We didn't expect MarineKing to beat Fruit Dealer but he did. Upsets are what make it even more interesting. I bet they didn't expect Rainbow to lose this early (no one did of course), but this is what makes it all that much more interesting. That's how seeds work usually anyways... They make it so the bigger name players face each other in later rounds
And to the post above. just wanted to respond real quick. I actually think this was the most entertaining round of 64 of all the GSLs. There was the rainbow game upset (GS HELL, tasteless made me laugh hardcore ont hat one). Clide vs Leenock, and there was also that really really entertaining protoss who went for chronoboosting to 20 probes and getting a fast nexus.... to a really awesome army comp. This GSL has been really enjoyable for me
That's what you (and arguably what most people) would want to see, but see, it's not a question of viewership/numbers. Is it right to send rookies out as sacrificial lambs to the big players? (Having a random selection is one thing, but fixing it to be so doesn't seem fair to the player to me).
That's the point myself (and travis presumably) want to bring across. It's about the players, not the entertainment value, which people seem to want to put priority on to at the moment.
Sure! That's why we have possible upsets. Upsets are incredibly enjoyable to the party who roots for the underdog. I for one love em! Even if it's against a player I root for. The entertainment value seems to be a dice roll and can come from anyone or anything (as long as its not overly cheesy or repetitive). At this stage of the game anyone go from rookie to star. Remember ro64 MarineKing performance? Or even... Do you remember ZergBong's performance in GSL1... It's arguable who are the definite "big players" and who are the "sacrificial lambs" because apparently a star can come from anywhere
season 2 boxer vs nada The only opponent that boxer went up against that is fairly good was loner before nada vs boxer and the fact that hes a foreigner season 3 boxer vs moon perhaps? 2 most anticipated match probably, well if its a ploy to get more viewers then business is business!! I know its unfair but its reality =/ also there were 27 zergs and out of all that boxer had to go against a nameless terran in RO64
You pair up Rookies versus Legends in earlier round because it's fair. You know that the legends already achieved something while the rookie has to prove himself still. It does NOT make ANY sense to put legends randomly against each other in early rounds.
At least from the legends you know that they were good in the past. From the rookies you know nothing at all. So you use your limited knowledge to create the best brackets possible. And yes, the best brackets possible are the ones where the legends at a later point of time.
On November 30 2010 16:52 cablesc wrote: These aren't facts. They're statistical anomalies. The only way they could be rigged is if the players actually threw games. Otherwise, you can't guarantee which players will get through to each round. In GSL 2 for instance, Loner went 2-1 against a protoss and a zerg in the ro64 and ro32, one more loss in either set and he's gone. Nada played a tough 2-1 match vs Leenock, who is looking like he could be one of the top zergs in GSL 3. Two games that go another way and Boxer would have played only 1 TvT in the tournament.
Also before GSL 2 Boxer said that his weakest match was TvP. In the ro32 he faced up against a protoss. If they're rigging things for Boxer, why give him his weakest matchup in the ro32 and risk him losing out of the tournament.
Totally agree - you can't just look at how many TvTs he's played and say "must have been set up." The only round where Gom would directly control the matchups is the round of 64, after which who advances and who doesn't is impossible to predict. And who knows what method Gom used to set up the Ro64 brackets after the qualifiers - presumably they'd try to make each group fairly even in terms of difficulty, but how you figure that out can be highly subjective.
I really don't think it's okay to accuse them of purposefully giving one player special treatment without any real evidence to support it.
On November 30 2010 16:36 adeezy wrote: I get the opinion you are saying IntoTheEmo, but regardless of bracket fixing.... if you deserve to win the tournament you win all of your matches it's that simple. Sure last season we could've saw fruitdealer run further if he didnt meet MarineKing earlier, or TLO could've had an easier match. However.... you can tell by the brackets that it's pretty much solid brackets, none of the ro64s are overtly close between two titans or two of the same people. Which the exception of Leenock vs Clide.
I think people always over-read the fixing of this and that and try to attribute to their own paranoia. Once a week i swear I see some poster claiming "fixed" or some ridiculous attribution to why this and this went on. I think we will never be able to prove they are fixing it and even if they are fixing the bracket they are obviously doing it in a very balanced way.....
But see that's the thing, every advancement through the rounds increases your prize money by a lot more. It's not just about winning the entire thing; not everyone expects to win, but every round counts. And if the newcomers/rookies get screwed by the tournament even during an earlier round, that's hundreds or thousands of dollars on line here, and if found guilty of doing it, well I guess that would be a huge turn off for new blood to participate -> bad for e-sports.
Once again I stress that I'm not accusing GOM of rigging, just a "what if" followed by an opinion of such a situation and why I disagree with the support people are giving "if" they "did" do it.
To be honest I'd rather see the smaller guys the new cormers and rookies lose int he earlier round than have the titans clash earlier. We didn't expect MarineKing to beat Fruit Dealer but he did. Upsets are what make it even more interesting. I bet they didn't expect Rainbow to lose this early (no one did of course), but this is what makes it all that much more interesting. That's how seeds work usually anyways... They make it so the bigger name players face each other in later rounds
And to the post above. just wanted to respond real quick. I actually think this was the most entertaining round of 64 of all the GSLs. There was the rainbow game upset (GS HELL, tasteless made me laugh hardcore ont hat one). Clide vs Leenock, and there was also that really really entertaining protoss who went for chronoboosting to 20 probes and getting a fast nexus.... to a really awesome army comp. This GSL has been really enjoyable for me
That's what you (and arguably what most people) would want to see, but see, it's not a question of viewership/numbers. Is it right to send rookies out as sacrificial lambs to the big players? (Having a random selection is one thing, but fixing it to be so doesn't seem fair to the player to me).
That's the point myself (and travis presumably) want to bring across. It's about the players, not the entertainment value, which people seem to want to put priority on to at the moment.
Sure! That's why we have possible upsets. Upsets are incredibly enjoyable to the party who roots for the underdog. I for one love em! Even if it's against a player I root for. The entertainment value seems to be a dice roll and can come from anyone or anything (as long as its not overly cheesy or repetitive). At this stage of the game anyone go from rookie to star. Remember ro64 MarineKing performance? Or even... Do you remember ZergBong's performance in GSL1... It's arguable who are the definite "big players" and who are the "sacrificial lambs" because apparently a star can come from anywhere
Note that my point isn't about whether rookies are able to beat the top players, and once again you're talking about yourself the viewer's point of view.
Pretty much - my point: Is it right for a tournament to jeopardize the chances of a lesser-known player to earn more prize money by pitting him up against a more popular player on purpose, so that they have a better chance at advancing, via either maps or brackets favoring a certain match-up. Ro16 from Ro32 is 1.7k dollars from $400, keep that in mind.
On November 30 2010 17:01 necmon wrote: You pair up Rookies versus Legends in earlier round because it's fair. You know that the legends already achieved something while the rookie has to prove himself still. It does NOT make ANY sense to put legends randomly against each other in early rounds.
At least from the legends you know that they were good in the past. From the rookies you know nothing at all. So you use your limited knowledge to create the best brackets possible. And yes, the best brackets possible are the ones where the legends at a later point of time.
Yeah in the qualifying rounds of course you wouldn't do it, that is also the purpose of seeds (I realize GOM doesn't have seeds yet). If you follow BW you'd know that past the very first qualifying round, the brackets are left as they are - whereas in GSL, they do the qualifiers, then sort out the Ro64 brackets - leaving room for speculation.
Also, map pool is pretty standard in BW, whereas from what Plexa said earlier about Moon, it is sorta suspicious that he would get Zerg-favored maps when others did not, could be coincidence, but once again there's room for speculation.
On November 30 2010 13:38 PartyBiscuit wrote: First of all, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ro64 matches are planned and indeed not random (no foreigners killing one another, no legends killing one another, and Boxer gets the TvT).
On November 30 2010 13:38 PartyBiscuit wrote: First of all, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ro64 matches are planned and indeed not random (no foreigners killing one another, no legends killing one another, and Boxer gets the TvT).
*cough* Boxer eliminated Nada in Season 2...
Not in the Ro64... Ro8, wasn't it? That's the point - of course they might meet later, but they won't be set up to play against each other in the first round.
With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop.
On November 30 2010 17:11 borny wrote: With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop.
How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not?
That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament.
Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets.
I don't understand why they don't just seed the 32 most "anticipated" players, or the best players from previous seasons, whatever floats their boat to get more viewers, and then just add them randomly with the other 32 "not so anticipated" players, and don't give out some ranks to the different seeds, just draw straws and let the brackets then sort out themselves and no "seeded" player can play one another until Ro32, as long as they have a bigger chance in Ro64.. which I don't mind
On November 30 2010 17:11 borny wrote: With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop.
How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not?
That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament.
Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets.
Oh, I don't follow GSL as much and forgot about that, that's a pretty good point, and yeah, general consensus here seems to be that it's "okay" to do this so GOM would get more viewers / it would be more interesting for the people watching.
So not only are the players denied some extra cash, they are set back for the upcoming tournaments too , if that is the case.
Evidence can be garnered either way to showcase bracket fixing or not fixing. That's for sure. However assuming that bracket fixing is real, it doesn't guarantee anything. No matter what RO8 is no easy feat, and pretty much anyone who has made it there I see their skill level as being top notch.
The only problem of GOM making up the brackets is that they are not officially saying it. They would just need to say that they have a certain seeding procedure (it's nothing else in the end) and that they produce the brackets like this. Would be perfectly legitimate to do this. It's often done and makes sense from a spectator point of view (you want to have a climatic end of the tournament!). "doing it behind the scenes" is wrong and that's where all the suspicions come from :-)
I think they will eventually have seeding procedures that are openly admitted starting from next season :-)
On November 30 2010 17:11 borny wrote: With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop.
How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not?
That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament.
Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets.
It's not "fair", seeding, in and of itself is not "fair". The entire point of seeding a tournament is to give the forcasted best players the best chance of making it to the later rounds of the tournament. This is why Federer and Nadal are always the 1 and 2 seeds in tennis, to ensure that should the two best players in tennis today meet up, it's for the championship, and not a first-round knock-out.
Given the general lack of substantive statistics that can be used to accurately rank the best players in SC2 (due to it's being incredibly new), the earlier seasons are going to have to rely on behind-the-scenes seeding and are not going to be incredibly accurate.
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how the seeding breaks down, because the winner of the tournament, at some point or another, is going to have to beat the second-best player at the tournament. And despite different prize-money awards for better placement, at the end of the day, winning is the only thing that matters, so the "fairness" of the seeding is a moot point.
I don't actually mind it sine I love watching the Emperor play. He has such a fun style to watch that i even enjoy watching TvT which I usually find very boring.
On November 30 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote: Evidence can be garnered either way to showcase bracket fixing or not fixing. That's for sure. However assuming that bracket fixing is real, it doesn't guarantee anything. No matter what RO8 is no easy feat, and pretty much anyone who has made it there I see their skill level as being top notch.
Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it.
Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is?
On November 30 2010 17:11 borny wrote: With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop.
How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not?
That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament.
Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets.
It's not "fair", seeding, in and of itself is not "fair". The entire point of seeding a tournament is to give the forcasted best players the best chance of making it to the later rounds of the tournament. This is why Federer and Nadal are always the 1 and 2 seeds in tennis, to ensure that should the two best players in tennis today meet up, it's for the championship, and not a first-round knock-out.
Given the general lack of substantive statistics that can be used to accurately rank the best players in SC2 (due to it's being incredibly new), the earlier seasons are going to have to rely on behind-the-scenes seeding and are not going to be incredibly accurate.
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how the seeding breaks down, because the winner of the tournament, at some point or another, is going to have to beat the second-best player at the tournament. And despite different prize-money awards for better placement, at the end of the day, winning is the only thing that matters, so the "fairness" of the seeding is a moot point.
Sure, that's because tennis has been around for years, and they are seeded for past wins, even BW has seeds too. But see, last season was Boxer's first GSL, and if was given any special treatment it would not be very fair to the other players, giving them to IdrA or Fruitdealer or the like would be more reasonable if they did do such a thing.
Also I hear Liverpool and Manchester United are going to play each other in an early round of one of the English Cups soon ^^.
ok as much as i agree that the Ro64 is setup. Gom have no control over anything other then guessing who might win after that. Saying that its planned that boxer gets the only TvT. how you think the ZvZ players who dont like mirror felt. they probably thought it was bullshit and were like "god damn gom damn u for not wanting too many zergs through".
regardless im happy they pull some strings. otherwise im sure we would see foreigners matched up on Ro64.
On November 30 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote: Evidence can be garnered either way to showcase bracket fixing or not fixing. That's for sure. However assuming that bracket fixing is real, it doesn't guarantee anything. No matter what RO8 is no easy feat, and pretty much anyone who has made it there I see their skill level as being top notch.
Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it.
Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is?
I think people are over-emphasizing the effect of the seeded bracket is. From what I read earlier, you don't even keep up with the GSL that much. And if you actually read through the brackets youll see everything is meant to be fairly even. Not too much of any certain matchups. There wasn't a lot of protoss in this GSL and you didnt see any PvP... etc.
Random seeding is definitely worst. If you think what they are doing is so bad and so serious, what do you recommend that could possibly be better.
On November 30 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote: Evidence can be garnered either way to showcase bracket fixing or not fixing. That's for sure. However assuming that bracket fixing is real, it doesn't guarantee anything. No matter what RO8 is no easy feat, and pretty much anyone who has made it there I see their skill level as being top notch.
Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it.
Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is?
I think people are over-emphasizing the effect of the seeded bracket is. From what I read earlier, you don't even keep up with the GSL that much. And if you actually read through the brackets youll see everything is meant to be fairly even. Not too much of any certain matchups. There wasn't a lot of protoss in this GSL and you didnt see any PvP... etc.
Random seeding is definitely worst. If you think what they are doing is so bad and so serious, what do you recommend that could possibly be better.
We're not talking about random seeding, we're talking about randomly generated Ro64 brackets so people have an equal chance, seeing as there is so much money on the line.
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
10000% agree.
Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked.
Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance.
On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote: " I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words. <3
If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything).
Here's an example.
You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).
Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.
Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being:
How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds.
If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this.
Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
I don't see how randomly generated ro64 brackets would be better. At that sample size. Could you imagine the uproar if Ret vs Idra was first round or something of the sort. No matter what, I prefer seeding, even if you think it gives people an advantage. I say this also coming from a tourney competitor back when I used to play random fighting games.
i see seeding as getting more exposure for new players. i mean, who really wants to see 2 unknowns play. I'd rather watch a legend vs unknown and be surprised by how well the unknown plays.
On November 30 2010 17:25 adeezy wrote: Evidence can be garnered either way to showcase bracket fixing or not fixing. That's for sure. However assuming that bracket fixing is real, it doesn't guarantee anything. No matter what RO8 is no easy feat, and pretty much anyone who has made it there I see their skill level as being top notch.
Once again, even though it's not guaranteed, it doesn't mean it's right to do it.
Also, since seeding for future tournaments would be based on the present ones, any sort of shenanigans now will be carried over to that. Don't people realize how serious this is?
On November 30 2010 17:11 borny wrote: With no seeding at all I think it is pretty good that they do some "behind the scene set ups" as it would suck to have some of the best and most famous players against each other right away. Once 2011 starts with a proper seeding system this should stop.
How is it fair that certain players get brackets favored towards them making S-class, while others do not?
That sorta ruins the integrity of the tournament.
Boxer and nada both had much easier routes to the ro8 in GSL 2 than the other brackets.
It's not "fair", seeding, in and of itself is not "fair". The entire point of seeding a tournament is to give the forcasted best players the best chance of making it to the later rounds of the tournament. This is why Federer and Nadal are always the 1 and 2 seeds in tennis, to ensure that should the two best players in tennis today meet up, it's for the championship, and not a first-round knock-out.
Given the general lack of substantive statistics that can be used to accurately rank the best players in SC2 (due to it's being incredibly new), the earlier seasons are going to have to rely on behind-the-scenes seeding and are not going to be incredibly accurate.
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how the seeding breaks down, because the winner of the tournament, at some point or another, is going to have to beat the second-best player at the tournament. And despite different prize-money awards for better placement, at the end of the day, winning is the only thing that matters, so the "fairness" of the seeding is a moot point.
Sure, that's because tennis has been around for years, and they are seeded for past wins, even BW has seeds too. But see, last season was Boxer's first GSL, and if was given any special treatment it would not be very fair to the other players, giving them to IdrA or Fruitdealer or the like would be more reasonable if they did do such a thing.
Also I hear Liverpool and Manchester United are going to play each other in an early round of one of the English Cups soon ^^.
You're missing the point though, regardless of how much information one has, seeding is an intentional method that gives an unfair advantage to the player(s) who are forecast to be the best, in order to ensure that the best players play in the most important matches, thus increasing the ratings of the given sport (and seeding is used in every sport that I know of).
If you support seeding based on past performance, then by default, you have to support any and every other type of seeding, because regardless of the specific process used, seeding is an unfair method of deciding who plays who at the start of the tournament. And even so, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because eventually the best player wins, and so it doesn't matter how the tournament match order was decided.
GOM so trying to give boxer a free ride, I mean, half the terrans in GSL2 were on his side of the bracket. HALF, on HALF the bracket! Unacceptable.
They're even doing the same thing in GSL3, half the terran players are on each side of the bracket, this is madness! I've never seen this kind of favoritism before, completely stacking half the bracket just to give boxer a better shot.
People are quoting Season 2 for the reasons for fixing, here is where they are immensely wrong.
Ro64: TvT: If they prepared this, how could they have. Ro32: TvP (enough said Ro16: TvT (vs loner): Couldve been a TvZ but Loner hung on a thread, also couldve been a protoss. The availiable opponents were : 2 T, 1 p 1 Z Ro8 TvT( Vs Nada): Couldve been Leenock: if Nada lost (which almost happened). At this stage fromt he other bracket there was 3 Terran, 3 Protoss, and 2 Zerg, any couldve been his Ro8 Fighter Ro4 TvZ
In GSL 3 he had a TvT first, and he couldve had another TvZ but Joon lost to Polt.
I hope this is enough evidence to go against GomTV protecting boxer.
On November 30 2010 17:58 NrG.ZaM wrote: GOM so trying to give boxer a free ride, I mean, half the terrans in GSL2 were on his side of the bracket. HALF, on HALF the bracket! Unacceptable.
They're even doing the same thing in GSL3, half the terran players are on each side of the bracket, this is madness! I've never seen this kind of favoritism before, completely stacking half the bracket just to give boxer a better shot.
Those are serious accusations. i just browsed thorugh the bracket and Honestly, Every bracket has about equal distribution. There was another TvT ina different group. (sc vs Lyn) and in general it doesn't look as what you are accusing.
Like I said, I just want to attribute this whole topic and mentality of people to their whole paranoia attitude that seems prevalent. Some occasions that come to mind is Idra vs Nony (people were saying Idra lost and didnt try for MLG Dallas), the whole SangHo business, a few topics that came up (and got closed) about audio cheating, and just little posts here and there.
Lol this is ridiculous - while it might be possible that they gave him a TvT in Ro64, there's NO frickin way, they could possibly guarantee this for later rounds. So what if his "later" T-opponents lost their respective TvZ, TvP? Or do you also claim that the later T-opponents got placed against bad Z and P-players to make them win and have more TvT for Boxer? The only thing obvious is that gomtv wanted Boxer vs Nada, the rest is absurd.
On November 30 2010 17:53 adeezy wrote: I don't see how randomly generated ro64 brackets would be better. At that sample size. Could you imagine the uproar if Ret vs Idra was first round or something of the sort. No matter what, I prefer seeding, even if you think it gives people an advantage. I say this also coming from a tourney competitor back when I used to play random fighting games.
They wouldn't be any better, they'd only remove the intentional advantage that's given to the best players at a given tournament. Randomly generated brackets would likely result in lower ratings (why watch the rest of the tournament if the 2 best players play in the ro64?), which would result in lost revenue (why pay for advertising if everyone stopped watching after the ro64?), which would result in less exposure to the population (why bother televising the tournament if no one's watching?), which would result in less competitive players (why play a game no one cares about?), which would result in the death of the tournament scene (why keep competing if the same 64 players keep playing with nearly the same results every single time?).
On November 30 2010 17:58 NrG.ZaM wrote: GOM so trying to give boxer a free ride, I mean, half the terrans in GSL2 were on his side of the bracket. HALF, on HALF the bracket! Unacceptable.
They're even doing the same thing in GSL3, half the terran players are on each side of the bracket, this is madness! I've never seen this kind of favoritism before, completely stacking half the bracket just to give boxer a better shot.
On November 30 2010 17:53 adeezy wrote: I don't see how randomly generated ro64 brackets would be better. At that sample size. Could you imagine the uproar if Ret vs Idra was first round or something of the sort. No matter what, I prefer seeding, even if you think it gives people an advantage. I say this also coming from a tourney competitor back when I used to play random fighting games.
They wouldn't be any better, they'd only remove the intentional advantage that's given to the best players at a given tournament. Randomly generated brackets would likely result in lower ratings (why watch the rest of the tournament if the 2 best players play in the ro64?), which would result in lost revenue (why pay for advertising if everyone stopped watching after the ro64?), which would result in less exposure to the population (why bother televising the tournament if no one's watching?), which would result in less competitive players (why play a game no one cares about?), which would result in the death of the tournament scene (why keep competing if the same 64 players keep playing with nearly the same results every single time?).
It's common consensus that people address random seeded brackets as worse. And the main point I was arguing is the intentional advantage people are trying to prove is not apparent when you look at the bracket as a whole.
This is a bit silly. If GOM was truly setting it up so Boxer would get a majority of TvT's they would not only have to fix the brackets but also go through match fixing as well to guarantee his opponents were Terran players. And to suggest that GOM is match fixing is just well.. stupid. Everyone saw what happened to Savior and how disgraced he was. And in the age of the internet it's almost impossible to keep anything that huge a secret as far as this tournament is concerned.
Could I see they fixing the brackets? Yeah sure, he's a famous player that people love to watch and while I don't see that doing much as far as expanding the popularity of SC2 it is fun to watch him play. The best thing for the game would to have it create their own stars. Guys like Foxer who were never big in BW are huge SC2 stars now and I find that better than having cross-over stars coming to play.
man... i bet if gom put idra vs ret in round of 64 i bet u guys would hate gom saying how koreans dont' want foreigners in gsl.
rigged or not rigged...
there will always be people that if u give them a steak they will say why can't i have sushi. if you give them sushi, they will say why can't i have a steak.
On November 30 2010 18:23 shire wrote: however, gom did show favoritism by making boxer play last round of 64. giving him (and his opponent) ltos of time to prepare
I would like to think that's more.... Saving the best for last =)
If you could find statistics that in the open qualifiers he faced a similarly disparate ratio of TvT matchups, I would find this theory to be more believable. I don't find it all that surprising that in a tournament style format consisting mostly of terran and zerg a player would find themselves facing a terran opponent a majority of the time. It's not like GOM controls who wins or loses (at least it seems that way for now, but the sport has been tainted permanently by betting scandals, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the matches were paid off).
On November 30 2010 18:23 shire wrote: however, gom did show favoritism by making boxer play last round of 64. giving him (and his opponent) ltos of time to prepare
I would like to think that's more.... Saving the best for last =)
lol perhaps you are right.
oh and one more thing to add.
if gom wanted to give boxer free ride,
they should have made polt.prime's ro64 opponent terran instead of zerg. so who ever wins out of that match would a terran.
boxer's opponent in ro64 could have been a zerg.
and some people might say polt's opponent zerg wasn't good so it was expected... or something of.
but then game is still new. leenock performed very well in season 3 compare to his loss to nada in season 2. also kyrix and zenio played amazing in season 2 compare to season 1.
hey guys i've never been a boxer fan, i think hes over hyped. but heck people like him, i dont mind. he still has to "win". And lets be honest, we all know how good someone is once we see them play in game. If your bad you can't hide it. From what we can tell, boxer seems like a solid player, hes not a LEGEND @ sc2 by any means but he can definitely hold his own up there.
Seems far more likely that they simply seed players like every other sport so that the top ranked players don't meet until the quarter finals.
When you watch tennis you will never see Nadal and Federer play each other in a tourney before the final. Thats because they are seeded 1 and 2 and therefore are at opposite ends of the bracket.
This is prolly whats happening at GOM, they seed players so that they dont have the "top 16" players meet until as far down the bracket as possible.
OP's logic fails after ro64 right? So actually BoxeR has got 2 TvT's by GOM at max. The other 5 came to him by chance. Maybe his matchup right now is TvT because he has had to play it so much, his TvP looked pretty good too, would like to see more of that. (and TvZ ofc)
If you knew anything about statistics you would know that 9 matches is not sufficient enough a dataset to base anything on. When there have been 30 Boxer GSL matches then post again please That's not sarcasm, I'd actually be interested in the figures.
On November 30 2010 18:53 jaycee wrote: Brackets need to be telecast being drawn out of a hat (a la World Cup) or have published cedings prior to the draw.
I'm not saying they were fudged, but moving forwards, the above will avoid a lot of threads similar to the OP.
even in world cup, they dont have 4 european teams or south american teams in a same bracket.
Well if the brackets are rigged it shouldnt b surprising. I know that star NBA players gets to the free throw line more because refs like to give them the favorable call.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Klamity wrote: The current ratio in TvT is 50% T wins. I think it's an extremely fair matchup.
actually its 100% T wins, you fail at basic math
No you do. Say you have 3 TvT's, theres 6 T's playing, 3 win, so terrans win 3 games but terrans also lose 3 games, hence terran having a 50% winning percentage.
Your correct, however he stated "current ratio" and not winning percentage . There is a difference.
That would mean out of 3 TvTs . Terran won 3 times. 3/3 = 1 = 100%.
I'm OK with the fact that the brackets are all arranged, but if they actually pick the maps to favour Moon and stuff like that it would be pretty ridiculous and only hurt them in the long run.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Plexa wrote: Moon is also the only Zerg not to get Steppes as a Map and has an excellent set of maps. Moon vs Boxer is literally one game away. You really gotta think something is up. Here's hoping Jinro screws there evil plans up
How RIDICULOUS would it be if Jinro defeats the icon of WC3 and then the icon of SC1?
idk what you're thinking, but jinro is the clear favorite, regardless of map, he has far more experience then moon(in sc2), it would be retarded to think it would be an "achievement" or "noteworthy" if jinro did win, or has the GSL warped people's perceptions to see superior players(based on history) winning as unexpected.
On November 30 2010 19:48 Minzy wrote: idk what you're thinking, but jinro is the clear favorite, regardless of map, he has far more experience then moon(in sc2), it would be retarded to think it would be an "achievement" or "noteworthy" if jinro did win, or has the GSL warped people's perceptions to see superior players(based on history) winning as unexpected.
What's the matter with maps? Come on! Do you think it would be better if the map pool was Delta Quadrant, Jungle Basin, Steppes of War?
Jinro already beat moon once in a ladder game(replay in a TL weekly pack), so i hope he does it again. Jinro vs Boxer would also be epic for the foreign crowd
I don't see a problem with this even if they purposely made the brackets easily for Boxer. It is in the best interest of GOM and SC2 for Boxer to go far and even win. Zergbong winning was nice and all, but if GOM really wants SC2 to become the main e-sport, a figure such as Boxer or NaDa has to win it.
IMO TvT is the manliest matchup. It takes the most skill to win it. Just because you have the superior number sometimes doesn't translate directly into advantage because of siege tanks. TvZ is kinda gimicky cuz it's all about how well you are at cheese/timing push. TvP is kinda like TvT but T is slightly favored at pro's level.
On November 30 2010 20:31 setzer wrote: I don't see a problem with this even if they purposely made the brackets easily for Boxer. It is in the best interest of GOM and SC2 for Boxer to go far and even win. Zergbong winning was nice and all, but if GOM really wants SC2 to become the main e-sport, a figure such as Boxer or NaDa has to win it.
This is pretty absurd, basing SC2's success on two players? Boxer himself would not like that at all. If you were a player in the GSL wouldn't you want a fair competition? Blind fanboyism is fine, but really, it's kinda selfish to want the tournament rigged so your favourite player can advance.
Like I said before, it may not seem much, but a jump from Ro32 to Ro16 is a pretty significant increase in prize winnings. Screwing people out of $1000 is never fine by any standards. Especially to all the newcomers who make up a large portion of the tournament participants.
Everyone wants Boxer to do well, but even the Emperor himself would like to win through fair means.
Anyone who thinks rigging is necessary to further develop e-sports, needs to reconsider their stance of supporting e-sports. Take away the fairness of competition, and everything goes downhill from there.
On November 30 2010 17:17 xlnt wrote: I don't understand why they don't just seed the 32 most "anticipated" players, or the best players from previous seasons, whatever floats their boat to get more viewers, and then just add them randomly with the other 32 "not so anticipated" players, and don't give out some ranks to the different seeds, just draw straws and let the brackets then sort out themselves and no "seeded" player can play one another until Ro32, as long as they have a bigger chance in Ro64.. which I don't mind
Well if you play too much of the same matchup, it gives your future opponents a chance to study your playstyle and formulate a game plan against it. So, it's a double edged sword, and in the end whether you win or lose is up to yourself.
I think we'll start seeing proper seeding after this whole S-class points system thing. In the meantime I'm enjoying the avoidance of mirror matchups.
On November 30 2010 20:31 setzer wrote: I don't see a problem with this even if they purposely made the brackets easily for Boxer. It is in the best interest of GOM and SC2 for Boxer to go far and even win. Zergbong winning was nice and all, but if GOM really wants SC2 to become the main e-sport, a figure such as Boxer or NaDa has to win it.
This is pretty absurd, basing SC2's success on two players? Boxer himself would not like that at all. If you were a player in the GSL wouldn't you want a fair competition? Blind fanboyism is fine, but really, it's kinda selfish to want the tournament rigged so your favourite player can advance.
Like I said before, it may not seem much, but a jump from Ro32 to Ro16 is a pretty significant increase in prize winnings. Screwing people out of $1000 is never fine by any standards. Especially to all the newcomers who make up a large portion of the tournament participants.
Everyone wants Boxer to do well, but even the Emperor himself would like to win through fair means.
Anyone who thinks rigging is necessary to further develop e-sports, needs to reconsider their stance of supporting e-sports. Take away the fairness of competition, and everything goes downhill from there.
PS - HI JAYCEE don't see you posting often here
Edit: Also <3 to Metalwing for quoting my post ^^
It may not be absurd from GOM's point of view. The brackets don't exactly seem completely random given the lack of zerg and terran mirrors. If GOM is touching the brackets up a little it makes sense from a business standpoint to help their #1 draw to be as favored as possible by pairing him with his best matchup. Remember last season Boxer played Loner, NaDa and Zergbong past the ro16. These are still all quality opponents.
I am not basing SC2's success solely on two players. I am simply stating that SC2's popularity more with Boxer and other big names going deep into the GSL. If you think I am making this up, why not check the viewer ratings for the Korean vods of Boxer's games?
thats right, they can "only " plan out ro64. what happens after that gom can't do anything to help boxer (well, cheating on the map pool is one option, but i don't think they do this)
On November 30 2010 20:31 setzer wrote: I don't see a problem with this even if they purposely made the brackets easily for Boxer. It is in the best interest of GOM and SC2 for Boxer to go far and even win. Zergbong winning was nice and all, but if GOM really wants SC2 to become the main e-sport, a figure such as Boxer or NaDa has to win it.
This is pretty absurd, basing SC2's success on two players? Boxer himself would not like that at all. If you were a player in the GSL wouldn't you want a fair competition? Blind fanboyism is fine, but really, it's kinda selfish to want the tournament rigged so your favourite player can advance.
Like I said before, it may not seem much, but a jump from Ro32 to Ro16 is a pretty significant increase in prize winnings. Screwing people out of $1000 is never fine by any standards. Especially to all the newcomers who make up a large portion of the tournament participants.
Everyone wants Boxer to do well, but even the Emperor himself would like to win through fair means.
Anyone who thinks rigging is necessary to further develop e-sports, needs to reconsider their stance of supporting e-sports. Take away the fairness of competition, and everything goes downhill from there.
PS - HI JAYCEE don't see you posting often here
Edit: Also <3 to Metalwing for quoting my post ^^
It may not be absurd from GOM's point of view. The brackets don't exactly seem completely random given the lack of zerg and terran mirrors. If GOM is touching the brackets up a little it makes sense from a business standpoint to help their #1 draw to be as favored as possible by pairing him with his best matchup. Remember last season Boxer played Loner, NaDa and Zergbong past the ro16. These are still all quality opponents.
I am not basing SC2's success solely on two players. I am simply stating that SC2's popularity more with Boxer and other big names going deep into the GSL. If you think I am making this up, why not check the viewer ratings for the Korean vods of Boxer's games?
Oh, I have no delusions about GOM benefitting from this. I am also aware that Boxer is immensely popular and has tons of views for his games.
But the thing is e-sports shouldn't revolve around keeping your top players in your leagues as long as possible. They should stay top from beating the A teamers consistently.
That it's not fair to the other players is the main point of my posts in this topic, which I find people are overlooking at the moment, basing their comments on the interests of GOM and its viewers only. And to support my argument, I stated that a difference in a Ro32 and a Ro16 finish is pretty significant in the eyes of a lesser known player.
No one disputes the popularity of Boxer, but it is our interest in the long run to keep the playing field fair for everyone. And, I'm not saying that GOM did rig the brackets, but even Plexa agrees that some things look suspicious.
All I'm asking for is, think about the players, refer to my post in page 5 to see what I'm trying to get across.
I agree that it looks like the brackets are rigged somehow. maybe its a conspiracy or maybe just 1-2 guys who pulled the names out of the box and made some "adjustments" while crossing their fingers and closing their eyes...
but even if it looks that way, we cannot spread the word on the biggest sc2 site in the west just because we assume that something might be up. nobody here has any real knowledge about this.
no offense but I think this thread should be closed
On November 30 2010 22:21 clickrush wrote: I agree that it looks like the brackets are rigged somehow. maybe its a conspiracy or maybe just 1-2 guys who pulled the names out of the box and made some "adjustments" while crossing their fingers and closing their eyes...
but even if it looks that way, we cannot spread the word on the biggest sc2 site in the west just because we assume that something might be up. nobody here has any real knowledge about this.
no offense but I think this thread should be closed
Nobody will ever get real knowledge from them of this is GOM doesn't care because every thread gets closed saying anything negative about them.
I dont know if its rigged, I wont speculate cause I dont wanna get banned but hypothetically speaking its not exactly unheard of for esports games to be rigged or atleast produce a highly dubious set of circumstances xD
Let me tell you another thing. I have a strong feeling they also rig the map pool.
EDIT: I am going to do some math around it. I'll make a new thread if it is really suspicious.
Random map generation could result in imbalanced map choices. But guess what could also result in imbalanced map choices? That is right: Not random map generation.
I do have a feeling as well that brackets as well as map pool could be rigged. Mostly because it would be in their best interest to get the best possible line-up of good, famous and legendary players in their S-code tournament.
It's however just a theory, nothing I or anyone posting in this thread can be certain of so I wouldnt run around crying MURDER if there actually isn't one. I would say it takes a bit more then just a gut feeling and something that very likely could just be a coinsidence to make such accusations.
Not defending GOM. I do agree there could be something about it. Just saying that none of you really know for sure.
Worst case is that you are all wrong but its commonly accepted as fact. Some time from now when the talk goes about Boxer in GSL, people will agree that is the truth, completely discrediting Boxers performance and GOMs reputation.
On November 30 2010 22:37 machination wrote: An Asian business doing shady things to increase profit potential? BLASPHEMY!
Yeah, cause this NEVER happens anywhere else in the world does it....
As for the brackets, it seems likely that GOM somehow fix the brackets to avoid mirror matchups. There have been way too few mirrors statistically in the last few seasons iirc.
On November 30 2010 22:24 Koshi wrote: Let me tell you another thing. I have a strong feeling they also rig the map pool.
EDIT: I am going to do some math around it. I'll make a new thread if it is really suspicious.
Random map generation could result in imbalanced map choices. But guess what could also result in imbalanced map choices? That is right: Not random map generation.
On November 30 2010 22:21 clickrush wrote: I agree that it looks like the brackets are rigged somehow. maybe its a conspiracy or maybe just 1-2 guys who pulled the names out of the box and made some "adjustments" while crossing their fingers and closing their eyes...
but even if it looks that way, we cannot spread the word on the biggest sc2 site in the west just because we assume that something might be up. nobody here has any real knowledge about this.
no offense but I think this thread should be closed
Nobody will ever get real knowledge from them of this is GOM doesn't care because every thread gets closed saying anything negative about them.
let me explain it a bit better for you:
we talk shit about them without having any clue. what do you expect GOM to say about this? that it isnt true? lol
this thread is full of hot air, assumptions and wild guesses, but everyone acts like they know something. common guys... this is ridiculous and hurtfull. if somebody had at least a tiny little bit of information then it would be all different but this is only shittalk.
I don't mean offense to the OP, but why hasn't this thread been closed or re-titled? The title is based on pure speculation and zero meaningful discussion can come of the original content apart from to tell the OP that there's nothing that can be drawn from it.
I normally would ignore this kind of post and wouldn't say anything but the title totally irks me. It's essentially defamation of GOM (libel, to be technical). Close or edit.
Worse case scenarion they fixed ro64 matchup. But after that it's hard to fix matches because brackets were already made! From boxers point of view it was tvt ro 64 followed with winner of tvz matchup (polt vs joon) ro32 if he advances he will play against tvz winner (jinro vs moon) ro 16
do you honestly think they can predict if jinro's going to win against moon? especially considering map pool (scraps. xel, blister) considering how few Protosses made it into ro 64 matchups seam normal.
On November 30 2010 22:59 SilverPotato wrote: So you're saying that because he gets matched against the most common race in the GSL he's bad against the other races? Check your facts.
actually the opposite would be true. but yes all Boxer knows how to do well is TvT. He got 0-4'd in a pathetic showing last season and the one Bo3 TvP I saw him play was incredibly lackluster as well.
Boxer's a mediocre player at best who's riding his TvT dominance. Hopefully he meets a zerg or protoss soon.
Wow! So much ignorance in the OP that I actually read thru it... DO you have any idea of what length GOM goes to maintain credibility for furthering E-sports. Thought not... Anyway hoping you get over your 'delusion of persecution' worldview!
Every single tournament in the world is done like this. It would be stupid not to. If you're a newcomer, expect to be treated as such. The rest of the players have earned their dues. You don't think Boxer making it to the finals is better for EVERYONE? Bad ratings = bad paydays for everyone.
Moreover, you're making an ass out of everyone with these assumptions.
On November 30 2010 23:25 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Every single tournament in the world is done like this. It would be stupid not to. If you're a newcomer, expect to be treated as such. The rest of the players have earned their dues. You don't think Boxer making it to the finals is better for EVERYONE? Bad ratings = bad paydays for everyone.
Moreover, you're making an ass out of everyone with these assumptions.
did you just...argue that the tournament IS rigged and then call the OP an ass for assuming that the tournament is rigged?
if GOMTV is fixing brackets... is the next step fixing the games?
The next question becomes... are they putting Boxer on Steppes of War versus Zerg to make sure he wins any Zerg matches he must encounter during qualifying or the GSL itself.
and if they are sliding down this slippery slope what does Activision-Blizzard think.
to Acti-Blizz eSports is meaningless in terms of profit and is seen as merely a possible "future ancillary revenue stream".
GOMTV risks Activision-Blizzard ending their contract.
If GOMTV fixes games i think Activision-Blizzard will pull the plug on their sponsorship and the entire organization will become less than a shadow of its former self. The profit upside to match fixing at this point is negligable relative to what Acti-Blizz considers a substantial amount of money.
Activision-Blizzard will engage in unethical behaviour when there are tens of millions of dollars on the line. They won't screw around when virtually no money is at stake.
On November 30 2010 22:37 machination wrote: An Asian business doing shady things to increase profit potential? BLASPHEMY!
Yes, lets point out that its an Asian business because those Asians are so shifty and untrustworthy compared to us 'Merricans and White folks in general! (please nobody mention western companies like Enron or WorldCom)
i don't even know why this is matter. there's no seed now so GOM must divide gosu players separately because no one want to see gosu players eliminated in r64 or something. you wanna see Nestea vs Fruitdealer in r64? Idra vs Ret in r64? GOM protecting foreigners early match too.
Long: Nothing special to be honest. They separate teams from the same "associations" in the UEFA champion's league seedings. Also, GOM may be using some seedings, who knows? Boxer's side of the bracket the most terrans is somewhat counterproductive. Yes, he will get far, but that also means that terrans are eliminating each other, meaning the chances of meeting a non-terran the further he gets and thus getting eliminated increased with each round (obviously provided that the brackets follow a fixed, predetermined plan).
Short: Don't care. Boxer is entertaining and so are other players who are favoured by this.
On November 30 2010 23:25 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Every single tournament in the world is done like this. It would be stupid not to. If you're a newcomer, expect to be treated as such. The rest of the players have earned their dues. You don't think Boxer making it to the finals is better for EVERYONE? Bad ratings = bad paydays for everyone.
Moreover, you're making an ass out of everyone with these assumptions.
did you just...argue that the tournament IS rigged and then call the OP an ass for assuming that the tournament is rigged?
That's how you run brackets. It's the standard and best way of running a tournament. It is no coincidence that Jaedong and Flash never clashed until late in their respective tournaments. It's standard practice: Put the best players into seeds farthest away from one another. It's difficult on Newcomers, but if brackets were generated completely at random, how would you feel about Fruitdealer and Nestea playing one another in the ro64 first game and one of them being eliminated so early?
I dont quite subscribe that GOMTV is feeding Boxer terran players, but GOM is protecting all the big name players for the first couple rounds, because that's how it should be. You want all the best players in the semi-finals/finals and late in the tournament. It's not good to have all the best players eliminating each other early on in the tournament, and some no name making it deep into the finals because he's been playing a whole bunch of other no names, then gets crushed in the finals. That's not fun to watch, and it's not fair to any of the players, either.
I like how peeps are quick to point out Boxer's opponents in his bracket but fail to realize that without seedings, GOMTV is trying to split up all the best players from playing each other early. They also have prevented all the foreign players from playing each other.
And that's why GOMTV has these 3 Open GSL tournaments to DETERMINE seedings so that they don't have to do this.
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
10000% agree.
Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked.
Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance.
On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote: " I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words. <3
If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything).
Here's an example.
You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).
Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.
Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being:
How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds.
If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this.
Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
By the way, for your interest, who defend rigging, FoxeR vs ST_Monster happened JUST LIKE the particular example about Bisu and TurN in the quoted text.
ST_Monster is a player who is able to get to the ro16. Let's see who he faces at ro32: FoxeR. FoxeR, who was able to eliminate good zerg players like Kyrix and FruitDealer in the previous GSL, faces a zerg player who participates for the first time at the round of 32. Still, ST_Monster still can win, but NO!!! Why should GOM allow a rookie to win over a past finalist and lose fans? So, let's arrange the map pool accordingly.
Set 1: Jungle Basin Set 2: Steppes of War Set 3: Lost Temple
I don't have anything more to say, because there is nothing to say after the map pool. Sure, they can't rig brackets that hard and get FoxeR to play ST_Monster, but WTF IS THE MAP POOL FFS !!! Seriously, how would you feel? HOW THE FUCK ... would you feel if you played against a "superstar", that you're more than capable of beating, on these maps? FoxeR himself couldn't pick a better map pool for his TvZ match at GSL ro32. Think about it, all you people who think that this is a good thing.
Seeding is meant to make things more fair. Rigging is meant to make things more unfair. Those arguing for seeding being fair and therefor rigging being fair don't really get it.
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
10000% agree.
Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked.
Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance.
From a GSL thread,
On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote: " I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words. <3
If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything).
Here's an example.
You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).
Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.
Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being:
How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds.
If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this.
Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
By the way, for your interest, who defend rigging, FoxeR vs ST_Monster happened JUST LIKE the particular example about Bisu and TurN in the quoted text.
ST_Monster is a player who is able to get to the ro16. Let's see who he faces at ro32: FoxeR. FoxeR, who was able to eliminate good zerg players like Kyrix and FruitDealer in the previous GSL, faces a zerg player who participates for the first time at the round of 32. Still, ST_Monster still can win, but NO!!! Why should GOM allow a rookie to win over a past finalist and lose fans? So, let's arrange the map pool accordingly.
Set 1: Jungle Basin Set 2: Steppes of War Set 3: Lost Temple
I don't have anything more to say, because there is nothing to say after the map pool. Sure, they can't rig brackets that hard and get FoxeR to play ST_Monster, but WTF IS THE MAP POOL FFS !!! Seriously, how would you feel? HOW THE FUCK ... would you feel if you played against a "superstar", that you're more than capable of beating, on these maps? FoxeR himself couldn't pick a better map pool for his TvZ match at GSL ro32. Think about it, all you people who think that this is a good thing.
In his defense, he did win the game on Steppes of War.
I do agree that the map pool was terrible, but I just wanted to point that out.
Honestly, I think the brackets are rigged in the Round of 64 to pair no-names vs stars. However, lots of tournaments do it and it really shouldn't surprise anyone.
I mean would you want to see Jinro vs Haypro, Boxer vs Tester, Nada vs Moon, and Ret vs IdrA in the round of 64?!
I sure as hell wouldn't.
The accusation that the map pools are being rigged though... that is a big deal.
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
10000% agree.
Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked.
Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance.
From a GSL thread,
On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote: " I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words. <3
If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything).
Here's an example.
You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).
Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.
Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being:
How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds.
If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this.
Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
By the way, for your interest, who defend rigging, FoxeR vs ST_Monster happened JUST LIKE the particular example about Bisu and TurN in the quoted text.
ST_Monster is a player who is able to get to the ro16. Let's see who he faces at ro32: FoxeR. FoxeR, who was able to eliminate good zerg players like Kyrix and FruitDealer in the previous GSL, faces a zerg player who participates for the first time at the round of 32. Still, ST_Monster still can win, but NO!!! Why should GOM allow a rookie to win over a past finalist and lose fans? So, let's arrange the map pool accordingly.
Set 1: Jungle Basin Set 2: Steppes of War Set 3: Lost Temple
I don't have anything more to say, because there is nothing to say after the map pool. Sure, they can't rig brackets that hard and get FoxeR to play ST_Monster, but WTF IS THE MAP POOL FFS !!! Seriously, how would you feel? HOW THE FUCK ... would you feel if you played against a "superstar", that you're more than capable of beating, on these maps? FoxeR himself couldn't pick a better map pool for his TvZ match at GSL ro32. Think about it, all you people who think that this is a good thing.
Yea I must say it is rather disgusting what they are doing. It seems like the removal of veto wasn't because of players playing on the same maps. It was so they could attempt to rig certain matches. I first thought this wasn't the case but there's too many coincidences that really start to change ones mind
okay first of all, if shit like this is happening then it better be because of something like no seeding therefore forced matching or i immediately stop being a fan of korean esports as a whole. i just can't take something like this seriously. there is literally no competitive spirit in making someone fight cans for 20 matches, then verse 5 good people and you're like 2-3 against them, but your record is 22-3 and you regularly get deep into brackets. i HATE boxing for this with so much passion, it's ruined the sport and i refuse to participate in being a viewer of another sport that wants to do something like this because at that point it's as competitive as pro wrestling.
with that said, i refuse to believe this is happening and it's very easy to write off boxer getting lots of terrans simply because there's lots of terrans. there's still not many GSLs so it could very well just be luck of the draw at this point, no reason to overreact... yet
On December 01 2010 00:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Seeding is meant to make things more fair. Rigging is meant to make things more unfair. Those arguing for seeding being fair and therefor rigging being fair don't really get it.
While I would agree that they are "seeding" things to try and balance the brackets, if we accept that Boxer is getting an easy draw in order to make it further into the tournament (which obviously is a good thing for esports in korea) then that certainly is unfair, and hence rigged, for whoever he has to hit as well as other players who are forced to hit tougher opponents who they might not have hit otherwise.
This ofc assumes they purposely gave him TvTs so he would advance, which I have no doubt they did.
I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW?
On December 01 2010 00:22 Enervate wrote: I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW?
i agree, and that's another thing. how can people be so quick to judge such a passionate person who was also good on such a legendary level, a person who has only returned to progaming to give it another good run for as long as he can? that's not the kind of person who would desire to have their matches fixed, it tarnishes the entire motivation. for that and multiple other reasons, i just can't believe something like this to be true without convincing evidence shoved in my face
As a long time lurker and starcraft fan, I had to sign up to chime in on this issue.
This is something that I've felt since last season's route to Boxer v Nada. How Boxer seems to have this uncanny ability to get mostly TvT, which is without a doubt his best matchup while his vZ and vP is not nearly as well rounded.
If tournament organizers have a hand in any favorable match arranging, it sours the entire game. And I am very disappointed that many people would support it simply to have their heroes advance further in the tournament so they can see more of them.
Such advantageous planning for legendary star players certainly would raise the viewership and marketability of any tournament, but is that fair to the competitors? Not at all, but that does not mean tournaments of any kind should prepare things in advance, even splitting star players or foreigners from meeting in the first round.
Random tournaments should be exactly that. If Jinro meets Idra in the first round, many viewers would be upset and demand blood, but the better player moves on and the loser tries again.
Another matter, as Plexa points out, is the odd situation where Moon has the rare Zerg map advantage against Jinro, making the possibility of Moon v Boxer all the nearer. Nothing definitive, but really strange coincidence just like Boxer's number of TvTs.
It's also surprising that some say how it's impossible to predict who will advance in each match in each round, even if the round of 64 is planned in advance, to guarantee that someone, such as Boxer will have a favorable or entertaining match in later rounds.
I'm sure most well researched liquibetters can get many results correct by knowing players histories, their strengths and weaknesses, the current map pool, etc. And if tournament organizers were trying to arrange their groups to favor some players over others in any situation, they would have more than enough information on their players to do so.
And while upsets do happen unexpectedly, that doesn't mean that every match is an upset, and typically the more favored player does advance and can be foreseen, especially if tournament brackets are selected by hand in advance.
So while I certainly hope that GOM has no part in any of this, and that this is all just a really far out sequence of random events, I personally can't help but feel there was some puppetry going on behind the scenes to guide some players into better positions or rounds for entertainment value.
It almost feels like match fixing, except instead of bribing players to lose, they are put in situations they are unlikely to win from the start for the benefit of other players.
Sorry for the really long post. It's been weighing on my mind.
I'm sorry, are there actually people on this forum who think the brackets are randomly drawn? Seriously?
As far as I'm concerned, GOM are doing the same thing HD and Husky did for the HDH Invitational, whereby they take their list of players and then manually set up the brackets with the intention of creating the most interesting tournament they can. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
There are a lot of accusations and rumors because GomTV had the bracket done behind the closed doors for season 2 and 3 while it wasn't the case for season 1. They should be well aware that these rumors circulate in any sports and this is precisely why there are seeds and open group selection to even out the strength of each group. It doesn't help the fact that Boxer is 0-8 in his zerg games (lost to NesTea 4-0 in GSL2 semi, lost to FruitDealer 2-0 in Blizzcon Showmatch, and lost to Kyrix 2-0 in Gstar 2010 GomTV Invitational). There obviously isn't any concrete evidence that there was any bracket fixing, but it can't go unnoticed that Boxer got relatively easy bracket in both GSL2 and 3, and we all know that success of BW legends like Boxer and Nada will undoubtedly help SC2 scene grow. There will always be conspiracy theorists, but GomTV isn't really helping either.
Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
On December 01 2010 00:36 cuppatea wrote: I'm sorry, are there actually people on this forum who think the brackets are randomly drawn? Seriously?
As far as I'm concerned, GOM are doing the same thing HD and Husky did for the HDH Invitational, whereby they take their list of players and then manually set up the brackets with the intention of creating the most interesting tournament they can. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
Yeah, I HOPE nobody actually thinks the brackets are completely random.
That would be pretty foolish, especially after Junkka SAID he was part of a 6-person team who makes the brackets.
Why would they need a 6-person team to "make" the brackets if it was random.
As I am one of six people who make the brackets I am not allowed to enter GSL
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Your example is called seeding. Since there are no seeds in GSL what they would be doing is called tournament rigging. The two are completely different. One is a objective ranking while the other is the organizers opinion of who should get the better draw.
Rigging is terrible and should never happen. They chose this format knowing full well that there would be no seeding so could see those potential clashes. Rigging a stupid format isn't how they should fix the issue.
This is under the assumption that you are saying they are in fact fixing brackets/maps. They could not be.
This is a little upsetting but I feel like giving zergs Stepps of War all the time is even worse than giving Boxer TvT, it has completely changed my view of not allowing map vetos. I'm going to bet they will not let a zerg win without having to go through that map several times. Fruitdealer was able to handle that map and it was an epic game, but it still seemed unfair at the same time. I don't think he would have had a chance in hell if his opponent simply made more marines and less siege tanks.
Hopefully once they are past the open tournament they will have an automated and publicized way of decided brackets to avoid this shit, same with maps. They need to be picked randomly and automatically, having them be able to cherry pick maps that are horrible for certain races is sooooooooo bad for the fairness of the game.
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
I would personally enjoy the tournament a lot more if it seemed completely fair, and the completely arbitrary bracket creation definitely makes it seem a lot less fair. Yeah, you shouldn't have Nestea v. Fruitdealer first round, but there are many better ways to make that happen. You can seed the thing based on success in prior seasons, or just have a rule against two S-class people hitting first round. You could also have a rule against hitting teammates first round if you want it, etc. I don't think anyone would have a problem with somewhat non-random brackets if they were done in a transparent way with criteria that's a little better than "what will make us the most money".
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
What about in the first Tennis match of all time?
I bet they rigged it too.
I understand rigging is bad but it is MUCH, MUCH better than Jinro vs Ret in the first round of GSL 3.
That means one of them would go home with MAYBE Code A and have zero shot at Code S.
On December 01 2010 00:22 Enervate wrote: I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW?
i agree, and that's another thing. how can people be so quick to judge such a passionate person who was also good on such a legendary level, a person who has only returned to progaming to give it another good run for as long as he can? that's not the kind of person who would desire to have their matches fixed, it tarnishes the entire motivation. for that and multiple other reasons, i just can't believe something like this to be true without convincing evidence shoved in my face
Clearly he is a fantastic player and has the potential to become the best of the best but at the same time from every ZvT I have seen from him it is is worst matchup and it seems like they are protecting him from that. I'll bet when he does hit the inevitable ZvT it will have stepps of war in the pool, guaranteed.
It was completely obvious from day 1 of the qualifiers for the first GSL that they were "rigging" the brackets, so I have no idea why this is such a scandal now. Rigging the maps, on the other hand, I would definitely have a problem with but then there have been enough instances of big name players getting bad maps for me to believe this isn't happening.
I've also been wondering about the maps / brackets being arranged. It seems that the more well-known players get maps that favor their race, and easy opponents. Maybe its all luck, but I think too much coincidence points to something else.
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
I completely agree with this, this is what I meant when I said "Meaningful rankings" (Though one could argue that viewers have a decent idea of which games will be good, but I doubt that - too many not-very-well-known players are doing good) My point was just that, in the absence of "seeding", one could argue that giving a shot at who's the best player may not be the worst option. Otherwise, they would risk having "names" kicked off during the first round/not achieving code A/S at all.
Just saying that although the only solution is getting rankings/seedings at some point (which is, I believe, the point of their codes/scores), it's an OK temporary solution.
TL;DR: Tennis is not starcraft, I agree, but just give Gretech some time so they can compute decent rankings.
On December 01 2010 00:22 Enervate wrote: I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW?
i agree, and that's another thing. how can people be so quick to judge such a passionate person who was also good on such a legendary level, a person who has only returned to progaming to give it another good run for as long as he can? that's not the kind of person who would desire to have their matches fixed, it tarnishes the entire motivation. for that and multiple other reasons, i just can't believe something like this to be true without convincing evidence shoved in my face
Clearly he is a fantastic player and has the potential to become the best of the best but at the same time from every ZvT I have seen from him it is is worst matchup and it seems like they are protecting him from that. I'll bet when he does hit the inevitable ZvT it will have stepps of war in the pool, guaranteed.
Like the last 5ZvT's had SoW in their pool. In the first 2 sets even. Still so many people think that this is coincidental.
I am not saying they are trying to get as many Terrans through as possible so Boxer would face more TvT. That would be outrageous. But they are rigging the mappools, and I use the word "rigging" because they don't acknowledge the fact that it aren't random map pools. I think GoMTVJunkka even replied in the Live Report Thread that the maps are random generated. (EDIT: He did said it was random)
On December 01 2010 00:36 cuppatea wrote: I'm sorry, are there actually people on this forum who think the brackets are randomly drawn? Seriously?
As far as I'm concerned, GOM are doing the same thing HD and Husky did for the HDH Invitational, whereby they take their list of players and then manually set up the brackets with the intention of creating the most interesting tournament they can. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
But there are huge problems if you're doing this in the world's most prestigeous SC2 tournament.
On December 01 2010 00:20 dcemuser wrote: In his defense, he did win the game on Steppes of War.
I do agree that the map pool was terrible, but I just wanted to point that out.
Honestly, I think the brackets are rigged in the Round of 64 to pair no-names vs stars. However, lots of tournaments do it and it really shouldn't surprise anyone.
I mean would you want to see Jinro vs Haypro, Boxer vs Tester, Nada vs Moon, and Ret vs IdrA in the round of 64?!
I sure as hell wouldn't.
The accusation that the map pools are being rigged though... that is a big deal.
1- Does NOT change the fact that Steppes is the best fucking map for both FoxeR's style and current TvZ metagame. Game on steppes was just out fucking play.
2, 3 and 4- If you want to do this, DO THIS PROPERLY FFS. If brackets were set like UEFA Champions League system, S class players or ex BW-WC3 pros would get the first seed, A class players would get the 2nd seed etc, this seeds would be ANNOUNCED and draws would be made by actual people and televised, people wouldn't be raging like this. At least it would cause less accusations. Right?
5- Why do every single Zerg get ridiculous map pools? I mean WTF, what is the probability of 90% of zerg players get Steppes of War in their map pools with the only exceptions of Moon and JulyZerg? Oh wait. JulyZerg even had Steppes in his map pool. If this is a coincidence, I don't know shit about anything.
To everybody: You can bash KeSPA all the way you want. But what they do is fucking legit and they don't do obnoxious things to get TV ratings.
아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요..
explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
Am I the only one that thinks this thread is a bit ridiculous?
-There were less then 20% protoss in round of 64 (and dying quickly)
-SlayersBoxer has the high seed, which gave him a lower seed matchup with potential lower seeds or unknown players in his bracket.
-NEXON was initially listed as playing Z (and likely got thru an easy qualifier path)
-The odds of him getting a round of 32 TvT was "decent" seeing how Polt seems to be a fairly frequent round of 32 participant. Still however fairly far from saying they rigged it or protected him.
-While the odds right "now" of him getting a tvt are improving, when the brackets were initially created... You would be seriously gambling to state that his Round of 16 match was going to be a tvt.
Point is: while things might seem improbable, it's not. It's how things happened when you factor fairly normal tournament bracket forming.
On December 01 2010 00:58 Metalwing wrote: To everybody: You can bash KeSPA all the way you want. But what they do is fucking legit and they don't do obnoxious things to get TV ratings.
It's not fair to compare the current KeSPA to current GOMTV.
Compare the FIRST KeSPA tournaments with the FIRST 3 GSLs and I bet both were unseeded.
On December 01 2010 01:04 Tomken wrote: It's more like Blizzard protecting Boxer, not GOMTV
Blizzard doesn't make the brackets. It's a 6-person team from GOM.
Nah, untrue. It would be impossible because brackets are sorta set from qualifiers I believe. Besides, you can't predict who wins previous matches upcoming to boxers match. Unless you all have TvT's before, it really doesn't go that well without having luck.
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
What about in the first Tennis match of all time?
I bet they rigged it too.
I understand rigging is bad but it is MUCH, MUCH better than Jinro vs Ret in the first round of GSL 3.
That means one of them would go home with MAYBE Code A and have zero shot at Code S.
Yeah, it makes sense to do it this way at the start. If they don't have a seeding system based on past performance a year from now, it'll be a major issue.
Hmm, as for the brackets, I hope they'll stop doing it in the upcoming season and start seeding players based on performance. I don't find it that big of a deal now, since they're still in the process of starting up, but they should stop doing that eventually. If they're setting up the maps to be advantageous for certain players on the other hand, that's a pretty big deal, and I really hope that's not the case.
On December 01 2010 01:06 EffectS wrote: Nah, untrue. It would be impossible because brackets are sorta set from qualifiers I believe.
This is untrue. The brackets are "made" by GOM and aren't related to the qualifers.
On December 01 2010 01:06 EffectS wrote:Besides, you can't predict who wins previous matches upcoming to boxers match. Unless you all have TvT's before, it really doesn't go that well without having luck.
I agree with this. I don't think they were really planning out Ro8 matches and stuff like people think they were.
They most assuredly didn't go "NESTEA! That guy sucked horribly in Season 1, but I know for a fact he will just rip through GSL 2 without losing a game until the finals."
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
What about in the first Tennis match of all time?
I bet they rigged it too.
I understand rigging is bad but it is MUCH, MUCH better than Jinro vs Ret in the first round of GSL 3.
That means one of them would go home with MAYBE Code A and have zero shot at Code S.
Yeah, it makes sense to do it this way at the start. If they don't have a seeding system based on past performance a year from now, it'll be a major issue.
OP says: Look it looks like GomTV rigged brackets but I don't want to discredit them but I'll show you why I think the brackets are rigged anyways.
80% TvT 10% TvZ and 10% TvP over 2 seasons.
Does not include other factors in except those that benefit his "theory".
Ro64 matches are not randomly aranged which is confirmed by Junkka or GOMTV since the post said they try to separate foreigners and big names. Which is very reasonable and prevents big upsets which could still happen. Which untill this point your "theory" is still valid.
Second Boxer gets 2 times a TvT in his ro64 (theory still valid) but not looking at what the chances of him getting TvT are in the GSL which is 29 in GSL2 and 24 in GSL3 out of possible 64 players (theory still not discredited). You see a lot of TvZ's but you can't just make TvZ's and TvP's. There will still have to be few mirrors and they decided that Boxer gets in them we don't know except that he got them (plausible but theory is still intact).
Everything after ro64 can not be used as facts for your theory AFTER the matches are played because they are dependant on the players and not on the organisation themselves (disproves your theory). If you actually posted this theory before the GSL2 with the knowledge of TvT being his strongest then you would be plausible in saying that they rigged the brackets in such order that Boxer would mostly get TvT's to reach the finals or something but we can't see into the future can we?
There is a thing called upsets LIKE Rainbow who got out in the ro64 by I don't remember who. All the following rounds after ro64 are unpredictable yet OP concludes GOM sets these all up for Boxer.
Seriously no disrespect to the OP but you are discrediting GOM and Boxer by the way I read your post which I thought to be a little peculiar
Here's another good future insight. OMG Slayers Boxer will get another TvT in the ro16 against no one other than Jinro!!!! He will beat Moon and then in the ro8 he will get either Idra(Z)/MVP(T)/Check(Z)/AnnYeong(Z). U think it's going to be another Terran in the ro8? 1T and 3Z on the other side of the bracket left though I don't know. My own Liquibet says MVP > IdrA and Check > AnnYeong but idk man if Boxer will face MVP in ro8.
On December 01 2010 00:58 Metalwing wrote: To everybody: You can bash KeSPA all the way you want. But what they do is fucking legit and they don't do obnoxious things to get TV ratings.
It's not fair to compare the current KeSPA to current GOMTV.
Compare the FIRST KeSPA tournaments with the FIRST 3 GSLs and I bet both were unseeded.
WHO needs to compare the current KeSPA? Just who? Look at the tournaments and you can see that every single match in a starleague were played on the identical map pool. So, FoxeR can't walkover on Steppes of War-Jungle Basin-Lost Temple while Jinro is getting a completely different map pool.
Disqualifying people for wrong number of p's, typing 'a' in the chat or ridiculous things like that is nothing compared to this.
You have absolutely no proof of any of this. For all we know, it can be statistical coincidence. I mean if it wasn't Boxer, it'd some other terran, so why not.
I would do the same thing.. You have to protect the money makers... Its might sound bad but it is actually a good thing, more viewers and sponsors. Remember that GSL is pretty brand new they have to have a great start cant blame them for trying to get by
On November 30 2010 13:52 Klamity wrote: The current ratio in TvT is 50% T wins. I think it's an extremely fair matchup.
actually its 100% T wins, you fail at basic math
No you do. Say you have 3 TvT's, theres 6 T's playing, 3 win, so terrans win 3 games but terrans also lose 3 games, hence terran having a 50% winning percentage.
Rigging is such a terrible word, and this thread is disgusting. They seed players manually, for an EVEN spread. Anyone can potentially take a game off boxer even if they are unknown so it is in no way a safe bet from gretech to "control" or "predict" the outcome 4 rounds into the tournament since there might be so many upsets (fruitdealer being knocked out of RO32???).
I don't really think it's set up. There's how many Terrans left? The chances of getting a TvT is huge, especially if your bracket (or win-path, I guess) is predominantly Terran.
If they are a saying map pools are random then they should do lottery style drawings before each map on the show to decide the pool. It would at a little flair to the show and keep it honest at the same time.
It's the difference between "omg he got steps of war! that sucks!" and "damn, that sure is weird so many zergs are getting that map".
On December 01 2010 01:18 Treemonkeys wrote: If they are a saying map pools are random then they should do lottery style drawings before each map on the show to decide the pool. It would at a little flair to the show and keep it honest at the same time.
It's the difference between "omg he got steps of war! that sucks!" and "damn, that sure is weird so many zergs are getting that map".
It looks like they balanced the races amongst the brackets as evenly as possible. Now the rigging theory comes from the fact boxer got placed in a bracket with 8 Terran players. I think it is just coincedence in this season. The fact that Nexon was listed as Z in their brackets could have thrown off the balance because if that was the case it would have been 7 Terran 2 Protoss and 7 Zerg which goes along with their theme.
Boxer and the BW stars bring support from the fans in Korea (and outside, but obviously mainly Korea) to GOM and Blizzard there. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of monkeying around with Ro64/Ro32 possible match ups for someone like BoxeR or Nada, any of the main Stars that were expected to get S class.
Wasn't BoxeR Vs. Nada the most anticpiated match so far? SC2 needs to get a leg up on support from the Korean fanbase, and since there isn't one person dominating GSL, for now they'll use BoxeR.
아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요..
explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
Here's my quick translation.
If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it. There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves. We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses. Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc. Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
It is not professional to manually place players into certain match ups based on some arbitrary conditions. You either have a seeded tournament, or a full out random bracket, with the drawings being filmed officially as proof (like Champions League group drawings).
However, from a marketing standpoint, seeing as how the league just started, it makes sense for them to try and provide the most exciting match ups possible and not placing favourites against each other that early. Also, if they admit they manually placed them, that makes it better, since it removes the whole shadiness aspect out of it.
아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요..
explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
Here's my quick translation.
If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it. There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves. We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses. Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc. Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
This only makes me feel more uneasy because of how stupidly easy it is to prove they are not rigged.
You draw maps from a box, there is one item per map, you draw for the full 3/5/7 games at once. Either it's rigged and they're at huge risk of pulling the same map twice, or it's not rigged. Sure you could still probably find a way to rig this with some magician like trickery, but it's a million times better than "you'll just think it's rigged anyways so we'll continue doing it behind closed doors".
아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요..
explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
Here's my quick translation.
If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it. There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves. We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses. Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc. Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
This is always going to be the problem with this kind of thing. People can claim whatever they want because there's almost never a way to absolutely prove that everything was fair. I know some will call me naive for it but I believe them.
I feel that some people need to realize that because anything happens, it doesn't mean it's rigged. Take the Nada vs Boxer game that keeps getting brought up. Some people are saying it was rigged that they would play. Well why not in the finals? Why not in the semi finals? What about the theory that it's good not to have top players have games before the end of the tournament? What about keeping them both in the tournament for as long as possible to keep fans of each watching as long as possible? Not everything is a conspiracy. What situation would it take to make people say "ok it's not rigged"? I bet you it would take 2 top players playing eachother in the round of 64. But then people would probably say they just rigged that match to show they don't rig matches...
Agree with MementoMori for the most part, mostly because i don't want to believe GOM is screwing things up. Frankly, I don't really think the evidence is conclusive for either side of the argument so i'm just going with my instinct.
However, i did wanna make a point about why fixing brackets is not a good idea, no matter what kind of 'marketing' bullshit you try and dress it up in. If you want to grow a genuine sport (which i assume most TL users want to see) you have to treat it properly. It should be about legitimate competition and the fan favourite should have to make his way through the brackets like everyone else. If you just want to see NaDa vs BoxeR, that's fine, but do it as a showmatch or whatever, don't doctor the tournament's format and damage the legitimacy of the tournament as a whole.
Just to be clear, i don't think GOMtv is doing that, but I saw a few people saying they wouldn't mind if they did and i wanted to show why that is absolutely NOT okay.
two GSLs isn't enough time to make this call. considering the larger number of terran qualifiers than zerg or protoss qualifiers, it could more than easily be coincidental. however, if we notice that say, 5 seasons from now, that Boxer is still playing something like 80-90% TvTs, then it would be safe to suspect match rigging.
it's always good to take a few courses in statistics. if your sample size isn't large enough, you don't have enough information to make any sort of judgment. It's like if i surveyed two people as to who they will vote for in the 2012 election and they both say Obama, so i published a report saying there is a 100% chance Obama will win the next election.
On December 01 2010 01:52 MementoMori wrote: Take the Nada vs Boxer game that keeps getting brought up. Some people are saying it was rigged that they would play. Well why not in the finals? Why not in the semi finals? What about the theory that it's good not to have top players have games before the end of the tournament? What about keeping them both in the tournament for as long as possible to keep fans of each watching as long as possible? Not everything is a conspiracy. What situation would it take to make people say "ok it's not rigged"? I bet you it would take 2 top players playing eachother in the round of 64. But then people would probably say they just rigged that match to show they don't rig matches...
FYI: I don't believe that the brackets were rigged, but I can come up with a reasonable explanation as to why BoxeR and Nada met in the Ro8.
There was no garantuee that BoxeR and Nada would make it far into the tournament, yet a match between the two was still highly desirable to lure in viewers. So you want them to meet earlier, rather than later. On the other hand, the earlier you make the two meet, the sooner you're garantueed to lose one of them. Now, reaching the Ro8 garantuees code S for the 2011 GSL. So by letting BoxeR and Nada meet in the Ro8, GOM could optimize between making sure that both players would get alot of games to play (by achieving code S) and minimizing the chance of one of them getting knocked out before their targeted duel. A BoxeR vs Nada final was much less likely to happen than a BoxeR vs Nada Ro8.
You guys can try and justify protecting your Boxers, your Rets, your IdrAs. But what about the next potential Jaedong trying to make his mark on the scene, the new guy who practiced hard to get that far into the tournament so he could get a sponsored team and make a bit of extra cash, only to be the victim of getting into constant brackets/unfavorable map pools vs more popular players just so they could have a higher chance of progressing further? Would you not feel betrayed, especially after that speech about GOM supporting people who are looking to pursue a career in e-sports?
Don't think that is very healthy for the e-sports community. No offense, but I don't get why people feel that foreigners should get special treatment, other than to favor the foreign community watching. I mean they deserve a lot of respect for going over to Korea and participating, but that is not enough to justify any form of favoritism to be given - many of the lesser known Koreans can give them a run for their money.
PS - I get the feeling that some of the mods are also interested in this subject, since a couple of them have replied, I guess even they are also a little suspicious - they generally frown on any conspriacy theory threads without any backing.
On December 01 2010 02:17 IntoTheEmo wrote: You guys can try and justify protecting your Boxers, your Rets, your IdrAs. But what about the next potential Jaedong from making his mark on the scene, the new guy who practiced hard to get that far into the tournament so he could get a sponsored team and make a bit of extra cash, only to be the victim of getting into constant brackets/unfavorable map pools vs more popular players just so they could have a higher chance of progressing further? Would you not feel betrayed, especially after that speech about GOM supporting people who are looking to pursue a career in e-sports?
Don't think that is very healthy for the e-sports community. No offense, but I don't get why people feel that foreigners should get special treatment, other than to favor the foreign community watching. I mean they deserve a lot of respect for going over to Korea and participating, but that is not enough to justify any form of favoritism to be given - many of the lesser known Koreans can give them a run for their money.
PS - I get the feeling that some of the mods are also interested in this subject, since a couple of them have replied, I guess even they are also a little suspicious - they generally frown on any conspriacy theory threads without any backing.
This, so much. It is detrimental to the health of esports. It is absurd to expect every brood war star to automatically be a SC2 star, and then to make the brackets help this along.
It's extremely plausible that players who couldn't go far in BW due to mechanics can dominate SC2 by having a better understanding of strategy.
I don't think the brackets are rigged, but the round of 64 is probably planned out. And as mentioned earlier; the result of the matches can be hard to foresee since both players has a chance to advance, there may be a "favored" player, but it's still a possibility.
However i find the map setups for season 3 a little suspicious. It often seems to favor a certain race (unless i'm misstaken or just to "into" my own theory). In my opinion, there should be one map that favors each one of the involved races and one neutral map, unless there is possible to present "only" neutral maps in each one of the matches.
For an example, in a ZvT: Xel'Naga Caverns, Scrap Station, Stepps of War.
This looks like a fair map setup to me, even if i would prefer all maps to be "perfectly balanced" for all races, if possible.
On November 30 2010 13:31 DentThat wrote: SlayersBoxer's best match up is undoubtedly his TvT and GOM knows this. They are always placing him in that matchup to try and keep him around for as long as possible. From a business standpoint, I can definitely see this to be viable. He brings in the viewers.
On November 30 2010 14:41 cablesc wrote: Boxer played a lot of TvT's in season 2 because, guess what, there were a lot of terrans. 29 terrans out of 64 players
Just because there were a lot of T's doesn't mean there were a lot of TvT's.
In the GSL3, RO64, theres only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1
In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it!
I'm not hating on the legend or disrespecting GomTV (I have paid for 2 seasons so far and I love it) Just wanted to point out this find that I thought to be a little peculiar
I actually enjoy participating in this thread, it's a pretty good read - it really shows how the different people on TL view what e-sports should be like, and I have to say that I am pretty worried about what I'm seeing.
well if they would set up the maps it would never ever be steppes of war in that high amount. Don't think they want that much tvts, don't know about the audience but most people like tvz that goes longer then 8 minutes *g*.
Just waiting for the cool totally imbalanced for all races maps. Those are the best, atleast in bw.
This make perfect sense. Placing high in a tournament really doesn't matter all that much. It's only getting to the finals and winning the finals that actually matters. Fixing matches may get boxer to the finals, but it won't help him win it. It doesn't do much harm, but it rakes in viewers.
I don't really buy that it's harmful to esports. They're not pulling jobbers out of thin air to sell games to the big-names, they're just (if we're to assume there's some bracket rigging going on, which again, doesn't seem likely except maybe in the case of Boxer) putting the big-names against the smallest fish. If these lesser-known players cannot beat these big-names, then they weren't going to win the tournament anyways, and you cannot argue that it is unfair for these newer players trying to make their way in esports unless you also admit that the big-names, just by virtue of being big-names, are automatically higher-skilled players.
In fact, when you look at the alternative, I would argue that it's better (for the new players, that is) to go against these big-names instead of being pitted against other lesser-known new players, and having the big-names go up against other big-names, thus making the brackets unfairly easier for the new players (that is if you go by the assumption that the new players are worse, and you have to assume that to make the argument that it's bracket rigging). This reduces the incidents of big-names being forced to knock each other out of the tournament very early, which I think I speak for more than myself when I say that really sucks, and it allows the new players to really prove their worth and leapfrog into stardom.
Foxer is a pretty good example of this - he had one of the toughest brackets of any player in all of the GSLs, going through Fruit Dealer, SangHo, Kyrix, and then Rainbow to make it into the finals, yet he bulldozed them all and almost won the tournament despite being a lesser-known player compared to all of those guys. His incredibly prestigious victories are what made him famous, no one remembers the guy who beat the likes of BanBanssu or Aya or whomever in the first round.
Boxer is just some guy as far as SC2 is concerned, he's famous but he hasn't proven himself to be on some godlike level of skill relative to the other competitors yet. Why is it terribly damaging to esports for newcomer so-and-so to face him, and who should they be facing instead? Remember no matter who they pick to go up against Boxer, it's still going to be a guy who qualified when dudes like Nada and SangHo didn't, unless you're saying they rigged the preliminaries too just to find easy dudes for Boxer to go up against. If they can't beat a player on the level of Boxer, who, again, hasn't shown himself to be amazing or anything yet, then they weren't going to win the tournament anyways. You qualify and enter the Ro64, you should be prepared to face anyone, and I don't see how that's bad for esports.
Honestly though, I think it's a moot argument and if there is bracket rigging going on, it's a futile attempt, because right now the player scene is so volatile and the game evolving so quickly, you absolutely cannot expect that just because a guy's bracket has lesser-known players, that he's going to have an easier time. We've had huge upsets over and over, and not just from dudes like Foxer who then later proved he was just as good as any BW big-name. And don't worry, even if these new guys get knocked out in the first round, if they still put up a tough fight for the big-namers, they will definitely get recognition, no concerns necessary there.
Unfortunately, it isn't always about winning the entire tournament. As I stated before, even an altered Ro36 match is worth $1000. The mere intent of doing it should be frowned upon by principle.
Also, KeSPA doesn't pick the brackets in the Ro16, the players do. Flash and Jaedong met in EVER 2009 Ro8. Jaedong had to play Stork and various other top class players to get to the Korean Air S2 final. He even had to qualify from scratch because he failed in S1.
Moreover, Flash and Jaedong have proven many many times that they are wayyy ahead of the rest of everyone else in their recent reign of dominance. Boxer is still relatively unproven in SC2 - any sort of bias towards him would be seen as favoritism and thus rigging.
아울러 대진표에 관한 의견이 나오고 있습니다. 뭐 사실 추첨을 해서 동영상을 올려도 추첨통이 조작되어있다 라고 하시면 저희가 또 그걸 증명할 길이 없습니다. 지난 시즌2에서도 비슷한 의견이 나와서 시즌3에서는 꼭 게이머들이 모인 자리에서 공개추첨을 통해서 대진을 짜려고 마음 먹었습니다. 그런데 시즌2와 3에 일정이 일주일밖에 없었고 스타크래프트2 협회 소양교육 기간에 모여서 추첨을 하려고 했으나, 불참하는 게이머들도 있었고 바로 수요일부터 G-STAR때문에 부산으로 출발하는 게이머들 때문에 어쩔 수 없이 임의로 주최측에서 추첨을 하였습니다. 기본적인 추첨기준은 지난대회 상위4명을 각조에 배치한 후에 종족 비율을 맞춰서 각 조에 Z,T,P 숫자를 맞췄습니다. 하지만 이걸 정확히 같은 숫자로 맞추면 모든 조에서 똑같은 대진만 나올것을 우려해서 특정조에서는 동족전도 간간히 볼 수 있도록 특정 폭으로 종족 비율만 맞추는 것이 오히려 낫다라고 생각했습니다 실제로 동족전이 지금은 오히려 신선한 상황입니다. 재미있기도 하고요 Z는 각조에서 6~8 , T는 각 조에 5~7 P는 수가 너무 적어서 그냥 각조에 3씩 박아뒀습니다. D조에 심재용 선수가 P인데 T로 표시됐네요 죄송합니다. 사실 이거 때문에 큰 오해가 발생한 것 같아서 제 자신의 한심함을 탓하고 있습니다.. (플래쉬로 제작한건데 사용법을 잘 모르다보니..여러가지 오타가) 혹시나 또 대진맵을 조작했다는 말도 나올거 같아서 지금 아예 말씀드립니다 대진맵은 시즌1,2에선 제외맵을 받은 후에 추첨,혹은 사다리타기로 추첨을 했습니다. 하지만 시즌3는 제외맵이 없기때문에 일정을 짜둔 후에 엑셀 함수 명령중에 1부터 9까지 랜덤함수를 발생시키는 명령어가 있습니다. 해당 명령어로 1부터 9까지 맵 공란에 써두고 1번은 전부다 전쟁초원 , 2번은 폭염사막 , 3번은 밀림 분지 와 같은 방식으로 추첨했습니다 특정 길드가 64강에서 만난것도 불만이 있으신 것 같은데 추첨을 했는데 같은 길드끼리 만났다고 다시 추첨을 하면 그게 오히려 조작이 아닐까요..
explanation about brackets from Korean commentator Che. I'm not really good at English so it would be great if someone translate this.
Here's my quick translation.
If we do a random drawing and post a video, there will be people claiming that the box is rigged and we'd have no way to prove it. There was a similar concern last season, so we wanted to do a drawing with gamers present for season 3, but there was only 1 week between the seasons, and there was Gstar, so a lot of staff and gamers were in Busan, so we at GomTV did the drawing ourselves. We put top 4 players from last season in each bracket, then tried to split each race evenly into each bracket. If we follow this strictly, all 4 brackets would look the same, so we gave some flexibility. So each bracket has 6~8 zergs, 5~7 terrans and 3 protosses. Also there are rumors regarding map selection. We finish up the schedule, then have excel generate a random number between 1 and 9, and had a corresponding map for each number, such as Steppes for 1, Blistering for 2, Jungle Basin for 3, etc. Some people don't seem to like that players from the same guild ended up meeting each other, but if we did the redrawing to avoid that, wouldn't that really be rigging?
That does not add up with what people quote john/junka saying.
If their selection was randomized he wouldn't have had any issues participating with the tourney because he couldn't effectively dictate where he would be in the bracket.
Also that obviously isn't the entire process (boxer vs nada last season)
gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
On December 01 2010 02:41 Piy wrote: Didn't NesTea play like 4 sets of ZvZ? It's a bit suspicious but could be a coincidence.
I don't think GOM (or anyone in the world) can predict that accurately GSL results that far. Maybe they do setup some in RO64, but further than that, they won't know what will happen (who will advance).
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known
Well the problem is that this will probably never be proven either way. Because how can you really? On the off chance it is, It can only really be proven that it was rigged not that it wasn't. As is the problem with all conspiracy theories. I just feel like if he didn't create this thread somebody else would have.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
so you want gretech to be in a scandal and be forced to pay money and get hate from korea??? there are always things happening behind people's backs, but often it's for the good he just revelead the good happening behind peoples backs and its maybe gonna force an unnecessary scandal that will hurt e sports the competition is legitimate either way, its not like they do that often, that would be too obvious and maybe all this blasphemy is for nothing and it was luck based, with gretech only putting hmi on a favorable ro64 not to get knocked out too early, and it just turned that the terrans were winning a lot and he just got lucky
edit : to the opst above i know someoone would eventually make this topic, it wasnt really pointed at him and if it never gets proven then all it does is create negative theories and it will hurt gretech in the future anyway.. pointless
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
so you want gretech to be in a scandal and be forced to pay money and get hate from korea??? there are always things happening behind people's backs, but often it's for the good he just revelead the good happening behind peoples backs and its maybe gonna force an unnecessary scandal that will hurt e sports the competition is legitimate either way, its not like they do that often, that would be too obvious and maybe all this blasphemy is for nothing and it was luck based, with gretech only putting hmi on a favorable ro64 not to get knocked out too early, and it just turned that the terrans were winning a lot and he just got lucky
edit : to the opst above i know someoone would eventually make this topic, it wasnt really pointed at him and if it never gets proven then all it does is create negative theories and it will hurt gretech in the future anyway.. pointless
It's for the good for who? Not for people who want the competitions to be completely legitimate.
For blizzard/gom it is for the good, since they are trying to hype the game up any way they can because it is profitable to them.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
Do you think its mere coincidence that Moon and Boxer can meet in the RO8 like Boxer and Nada did last season? And that Moon has the easiest set of maps of any Zerg in the Ro32?
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
Do you think its mere coincidence that Moon and Boxer can meet in the RO8 like Boxer and Nada did last season? And that Moon has the easiest set of maps of any Zerg in the Ro32?
i never said it wasnt true nada x boxer ro8 isnt a coincidence.. if it was a final then maybe, but ro8 is completely normal do u rly think they would be dumb enough to put them together in a ro32? ofc not everything is luck based.. ro8 is good enough. moon could be on the other side of the bracket for them to meet @ finals as well, this is all jsut theorycrafting because of boredom imo
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
Do you think its mere coincidence that Moon and Boxer can meet in the RO8 like Boxer and Nada did last season? And that Moon has the easiest set of maps of any Zerg in the Ro32?
Look again Winner of Boxer/Polt (ro32) vs winner of Jinro/Moon(ro32) in the ro16. In the possible ro8 there is a possibiliy of Boxer/Polt/Jinro/Moon vs IdrA/MVP/Check/AnnYeong :D
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
yea kinda what i said in better words ty its the internet, ofc people want to scream drama and maybe dont realize the damage thsi one can do regardless of if its true ior not
hmmm when you say there was one TvT and boxer gets it do you mean there was 1 other terran player or one TvT match played because they are compleatly diffrent.
On December 01 2010 02:47 OutlaW- wrote: Guys, often, OSL and MSL are amde so that jaedong meets flash in the finals. FUcking rigging kespa, let's burn them to hell ????
There are previous performances to base judgements off. SC2 has no such thing
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
Do you think its mere coincidence that Moon and Boxer can meet in the RO8 like Boxer and Nada did last season? And that Moon has the easiest set of maps of any Zerg in the Ro32?
Ok but you're just picking some of the most popular players and following them. Since neither side will probably ever win this argument or convince the other (I'm not even arguing against you either, I just don't have enough information either way) somebody at least needs to do some stats on "map difficulty" for all of the players. I'm not saying you're wrong but the work should fall on those making the accusations to come up with more proof before making them. Yeah some players have had favorable map pools. But how common is that? I'm sure lots of players do. Almost every series will have maps which favor one player over the other. And unless somebody puts some real effort in to show that it's rigged, I'm going to remain on the non-conspiracy theory side. Again, somebody has to have the easiest map pool, just because it's him could easily still be coincidence! More proof is needed.
This thread already has done it's damage and the OP irresponsibly made such thread without clearly thinking what kind of consequences this could bring. People are forgetting that TL.net is the nr. 1 English resource site for Starcraft content so obviously ANYTHING that gets posted here will be read by all major news sites.
An example would be like that Taiwan VJ and those pics and then it even gets into the news. Now this thread has already made it into the Korean forums and on other major English E-sports sites.
People should be aware when making such threads. There should be some kind of rule about posting these kinds of threads/theories w/e u want to name them. Maybe to pm a mod/admin first whether or not these things should be posted because the OP doesn't have any substantial proof except speculation and theories about his claims.
Obviously you would think 1 opinion doesn't mean much but if u post it on a site like tl.net the majority of all SC esports fans will know about this and everyone related or into SC will too all because 1 person just made an accusation which no one can prove it is true or false.
Frankly, I'd be much more concerned with map rigging than bracket rigging. Bracket rigging, yeah, that can be bad and all, but map rigging? Not only does that severely damage the integrity of esports, it damages the integrity of Blizzard and the integrity of the strategic value of this game.
On December 01 2010 03:37 shannn wrote: This thread already has done it's damage and the OP irresponsibly made such thread without clearly thinking what kind of consequences this could bring. People are forgetting that TL.net is the nr. 1 english resource site for Starcraft content so obviously ANYTHING that gets posted here will be read by all major news sites. An example would be like that Taiwan VJ and those pics and then it even gets into the news. Now with this thread already made it into the Korean forums and on other major English E-sports sites. People should be aware when making such threads. There should be some kind of rule about posting these kinds of threads/theories w/e u want to name them. Maybe to pm a mod/admin first whether or not these things should be posted because the OP doesn't have any substantial proof except speculation and theories about his claims. Obviously you would think 1 opinion doesn't mean much but if u post it on a site like tl.net the majority of all SC esports fans will know about this and everyone related or into SC will too all because 1 person just made an accusation which no one can prove it is true or false.
I so fully agree, this is so bad.
The longer this goes on the more people will accept this as fact. IT IS NOT FACT.
Reasonable suspecion maybe, and I'm not gonna deny that I do think there could be something about it, but there is no way that I would accept this as fact just by what we know. As of now it is spreading to other sites so already people are seeing this as fact. This is really bad,
On December 01 2010 03:37 shannn wrote: This thread already has done it's damage and the OP irresponsibly made such thread without clearly thinking what kind of consequences this could bring. People are forgetting that TL.net is the nr. 1 english resource site for Starcraft content so obviously ANYTHING that gets posted here will be read by all major news sites. An example would be like that Taiwan VJ and those pics and then it even gets into the news. Now with this thread already made it into the Korean forums and on other major English E-sports sites. People should be aware when making such threads. There should be some kind of rule about posting these kinds of threads/theories w/e u want to name them. Maybe to pm a mod/admin first whether or not these things should be posted because the OP doesn't have any substantial proof except speculation and theories about his claims. Obviously you would think 1 opinion doesn't mean much but if u post it on a site like tl.net the majority of all SC esports fans will know about this and everyone related or into SC will too all because 1 person just made an accusation which no one can prove it is true or false.
I so fully agree, this is so bad.
The longer this goes on the more people will accept this as fact. IT IS NOT FACT.
Reasonable suspecion maybe, and I'm not gonna deny that I do think there could be something about it, but there is no way that I would accept this as fact just by what we now. As of now it is spreading to other sites so already people are seeing this as fact. This is really bad,
This whole argument makes so little sense. It's not the OPs fault that starcraft news sites are posting something as fact when it is speculation. It's their fault.
On December 01 2010 03:37 shannn wrote: This thread already has done it's damage and the OP irresponsibly made such thread without clearly thinking what kind of consequences this could bring. People are forgetting that TL.net is the nr. 1 english resource site for Starcraft content so obviously ANYTHING that gets posted here will be read by all major news sites. An example would be like that Taiwan VJ and those pics and then it even gets into the news. Now with this thread already made it into the Korean forums and on other major English E-sports sites. People should be aware when making such threads. There should be some kind of rule about posting these kinds of threads/theories w/e u want to name them. Maybe to pm a mod/admin first whether or not these things should be posted because the OP doesn't have any substantial proof except speculation and theories about his claims. Obviously you would think 1 opinion doesn't mean much but if u post it on a site like tl.net the majority of all SC esports fans will know about this and everyone related or into SC will too all because 1 person just made an accusation which no one can prove it is true or false.
I so fully agree, this is so bad.
The longer this goes on the more people will accept this as fact. IT IS NOT FACT.
Reasonable suspecion maybe, and I'm not gonna deny that I do think there could be something about it, but there is no way that I would accept this as fact just by what we now. As of now it is spreading to other sites so already people are seeing this as fact. This is really bad,
This whole argument makes so little sense. It's not the OPs fault that starcraft news sites are posting something as fact when it is speculation. It's their fault.
IMO TL mods should be responsible here, this kind of discussion based only on speculation can lead to some pretty bad stuff down the road. It starts a chain of missleading "facts" and will not cause growth to the SC2 scene.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
I don't care about the bracket rig stuff either.. If a player is unknown and then beats someone they might not have faced they will get known after that rather than beating other unknowns... But.. map pool should be completely random.. (or even better have it where people can thumbs down maps like before.. only reason I can think of for taking that out is to rig it lol)
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
To an opinion, of course. But that doesn't absolve people of acting responsibly with those opinions. TL is very influential and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are either uninformed or will jump on the bandwagon just because they want some drama. That's not the way of going about things.
You used a real life example of how corruption is unraveled however it's not really applicable on the Internet where everyone can say anything and can go viral in an instant. The versions and "facts" will change as it spreads until all it has done is damage to the reputation of SC2, GSL and e-sports as a whole.
If something is rigged or corrupted then of course it has to be exposed and I'm all for it, but it shouldn't be done this way. And like always: the burden on proof is on someone making the claim, not the other way around.
Demanding transparency for future tournaments is one thing (and a good one) but accusing them of rigging past tournaments is a completely different ball game.
I think everybody just needs to take a step back and realize that the OP basically contained: boxer played a few terrans. 7/9 of his matches were against terran which happened to be the most common race in season 2. If people are taking this extremely solid proof of rigging and posting it on other sites people really need to reevaluate what it takes for them to be convinced of something. It's not even remotely close to proof of anything.
Example: if you rolled a 3 on a 3 sided die 7/9 times, which isn't even a good analogy because there were more terrans than any other race, would you say that's proof it's rigged?
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
To an opinion, of course. But that doesn't absolve people of acting responsibly with those opinions. TL is very influential and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are either uninformed or will jump on the bandwagon just because they want some drama. That's not the way of going about things.
You used a real life example of how corruption is unraveled however it's not really applicable on the Internet where everyone can say anything and can go viral in an instant. The versions and "facts" will change as it spreads until all it has done is damage to the reputation of SC2, GSL and e-sports as a whole.
If something is rigged or corrupted then of course it has to be exposed and I'm all for it, but it shouldn't be done this way. And like always: the burden on proof is on someone making the claim, not the other way around.
Demanding transparency for future tournaments is one thing (and a good one) but accusing them of rigging past tournaments is a completely different ball game.
Ok well how about this, people have asked for transparency since the very first GSL. They have not delivered transparency, we can not force them to deliver transparency, so really the ball is in their court.
I think it is healthy to speculate that something fishy may be up, because we originally were just asking for transparency, giving them an honest chance to show that the tournament is legitimate and fair, yet they have not taken the opportunity to do so.
The behavior of GSL and the decisions they have made are obviously dictated by something other than just promoting esports in a fair, legitimate, and honest way.
And this ties back into why I think it was an awful idea to give blizzard any power whatsoever over the actual operation of esports tournaments..
Because there is a conflict of interest. Blizzard does not want to promote healthy sporting events, they want to do whatever it takes to increase their revenue, and they are going about it the same way that activision often does, just at a less accelerated pace.
Look at the call of duty franchise for example, you hype a game up, you release it, you make tons of money, and then it deflates, you've already made your money, and you are shortly going to release the next title in the series.
From a business perspective do you think blizzard cares if sc2 is still an e-sport in 5-10 years? They'll only care until all of the expansions are out, and then they will want their customers to play their newer games because that means more box sales and/or subscriptions.
On December 01 2010 03:37 shannn wrote: This thread already has done it's damage and the OP irresponsibly made such thread without clearly thinking what kind of consequences this could bring. People are forgetting that TL.net is the nr. 1 english resource site for Starcraft content so obviously ANYTHING that gets posted here will be read by all major news sites. An example would be like that Taiwan VJ and those pics and then it even gets into the news. Now with this thread already made it into the Korean forums and on other major English E-sports sites. People should be aware when making such threads. There should be some kind of rule about posting these kinds of threads/theories w/e u want to name them. Maybe to pm a mod/admin first whether or not these things should be posted because the OP doesn't have any substantial proof except speculation and theories about his claims. Obviously you would think 1 opinion doesn't mean much but if u post it on a site like tl.net the majority of all SC esports fans will know about this and everyone related or into SC will too all because 1 person just made an accusation which no one can prove it is true or false.
I so fully agree, this is so bad.
The longer this goes on the more people will accept this as fact. IT IS NOT FACT.
Reasonable suspecion maybe, and I'm not gonna deny that I do think there could be something about it, but there is no way that I would accept this as fact just by what we now. As of now it is spreading to other sites so already people are seeing this as fact. This is really bad,
This whole argument makes so little sense. It's not the OPs fault that starcraft news sites are posting something as fact when it is speculation. It's their fault.
IMO TL mods should be responsible here, this kind of discussion based only on speculation can lead to some pretty bad stuff down the road. It starts a chain of missleading "facts" and will not cause growth to the SC2 scene.
This is a forum on the internet, anyone who takes speculation from such a source as gospel is an idiot. Can't protect idiots from themselves.
The OP was well-within his rights to speculate as he did. If the topic was misplaced, or the OP was poorly done, then yeah, close the thread, but TL has no hard and fast rules about this, and I see nothing wrong with leaving this open.
Also: I don't like ANY kind of manipulation of a tournament brackets besides seeding from past results. If there are no seeds, then the bracket should have been randomly generated. Rigging a tournament undermines the whole process.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
To an opinion, of course. But that doesn't absolve people of acting responsibly with those opinions. TL is very influential and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are either uninformed or will jump on the bandwagon just because they want some drama. That's not the way of going about things.
You used a real life example of how corruption is unraveled however it's not really applicable on the Internet where everyone can say anything and can go viral in an instant. The versions and "facts" will change as it spreads until all it has done is damage to the reputation of SC2, GSL and e-sports as a whole.
If something is rigged or corrupted then of course it has to be exposed and I'm all for it, but it shouldn't be done this way. And like always: the burden on proof is on someone making the claim, not the other way around.
Demanding transparency for future tournaments is one thing (and a good one) but accusing them of rigging past tournaments is a completely different ball game.
Ok well how about this, people have asked for transparency since the very first GSL. They have not delivered transparency, we can not force them to deliver transparency, so really the ball is in their court.
I think it is healthy to speculate that something fishy may be up, because we originally were just asking for transparency, giving them an honest chance to show that the tournament is legitimate and fair, yet they have not taken the opportunity to do so.
The behavior of GSL and the decisions they have made are obviously dictated by something other than just promoting esports in a fair, legitimate, and honest way.
Um. Accusing someone of rigging and fixing a tournament just because they haven't complied to your demands doesn't make the ball in their court. It doesn't change the burden of proof thing because you are still the one making the claim.
It just seems vindictive and petty. "They haven't given us full transparency so they must be rigging the tournament. So we shall make everyone know this!" Uh-oh.
Eh, you edited
And this ties back into why I think it was an awful idea to give blizzard any power whatsoever over the actual operation of esports tournaments..
Because there is a conflict of interest. Blizzard does not want to promote healthy sporting events, they want to do whatever it takes to increase their revenue, and they are going about it the same way that activision often does, just at a less accelerated pace.
Look at the call of duty franchise for example, you hype a game up, you release it, you make tons of money, and then it deflates, you've already made your money, and you are shortly going to release the next title in the series.
From a business perspective do you think blizzard cares if sc2 is still an e-sport in 5-10 years? They'll only care until all of the expansions are out, and then they will want their customers to play their newer games because that means more box sales and/or subscriptions.
I'm not anti or pro Blizzard so I'm just waiting to see how things go from here. I won't make any speculation because we still haven't seen how Blizzard treats e-sport that is completely in their control. (they treated other ones crappy) So far so good.
Blizzard will keep SC2 afloat at least until both expansions are up (some 3 years or so) and if by then the game can't support itself as an e-sport than it shouldn't deserve to survive anyway.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
To an opinion, of course. But that doesn't absolve people of acting responsibly with those opinions. TL is very influential and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are either uninformed or will jump on the bandwagon just because they want some drama. That's not the way of going about things.
You used a real life example of how corruption is unraveled however it's not really applicable on the Internet where everyone can say anything and can go viral in an instant. The versions and "facts" will change as it spreads until all it has done is damage to the reputation of SC2, GSL and e-sports as a whole.
If something is rigged or corrupted then of course it has to be exposed and I'm all for it, but it shouldn't be done this way. And like always: the burden on proof is on someone making the claim, not the other way around.
Demanding transparency for future tournaments is one thing (and a good one) but accusing them of rigging past tournaments is a completely different ball game.
Ok well how about this, people have asked for transparency since the very first GSL. They have not delivered transparency, we can not force them to deliver transparency, so really the ball is in their court.
I think it is healthy to speculate that something fishy may be up, because we originally were just asking for transparency, giving them an honest chance to show that the tournament is legitimate and fair, yet they have not taken the opportunity to do so.
The behavior of GSL and the decisions they have made are obviously dictated by something other than just promoting esports in a fair, legitimate, and honest way.
Um. Accusing someone of rigging and fixing a tournament just because they haven't complied to your demands doesn't make the ball in their court. It doesn't change the burden of proof thing because you are still the one making the claim.
It just seems vindictive and petty. "They haven't given us full transparency so they must be rigging the tournament. So we shall make everyone know this!" Uh-oh.
You are misconstruing what I have said.
I am saying that we have given them the opportunity to show that the tournament is legitimate. They are the one trying to promote sc2 as an esport, if they want to show they have a legitimate tournament that is up to them. We can not force them to do so.
But if they are evasive about their tournament and are not transparent, it is only logical to ask the question of why that is so.
And realistically the burden of proof is on them, because it is not that we need to prove they are corrupt.
It is them trying to market GSL as the most insane and biggest esport event in the world. So they need to prove that it is an esport event, and not just a marketing event.
GOM's reply to the bracket selection is quite interesting.
The idea that tournament organizers would consider not hosting an official video record of a random group drawing simply because some people would doubt its authenticity is unfortunate.
It would be like me on vacation catching the biggest fish I've ever seen, but not taking any pictures because some people would say I photoshopped it. It still happened. I caught the fish, just as they may have randomly drawn the brackets, but neither of us have proof in the end.
Couple that with the statement of distributing races and previous top four finishers across groups, and things seem more artificial.
For a professional broadcast company running the largest Starcraft 2 tournament in the world promoting the game and e-sports, I think the more records and transparency you have in how you manage a tournament the better, so situations and speculations such as this don't arise.
But the way the cards have been folding in favor of some of the celebrity players suggests to me that things are not random as advertised.
And while that is not enough to prove anything, if I feel a tournament is unfairly stacked whether by brackets, match-ups, map selection, what have you, then I am less inclined to be a viewer and supporter of that tournament in the future.
This really is an interesting discussion in general about how an audience looks at fairness and fortune in a tournament setting, and it will spread around as speculation often wildly does, but people will have their own opinions and have to make their own decisions based on what they observe.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
To an opinion, of course. But that doesn't absolve people of acting responsibly with those opinions. TL is very influential and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are either uninformed or will jump on the bandwagon just because they want some drama. That's not the way of going about things.
You used a real life example of how corruption is unraveled however it's not really applicable on the Internet where everyone can say anything and can go viral in an instant. The versions and "facts" will change as it spreads until all it has done is damage to the reputation of SC2, GSL and e-sports as a whole.
If something is rigged or corrupted then of course it has to be exposed and I'm all for it, but it shouldn't be done this way. And like always: the burden on proof is on someone making the claim, not the other way around.
Demanding transparency for future tournaments is one thing (and a good one) but accusing them of rigging past tournaments is a completely different ball game.
Ok well how about this, people have asked for transparency since the very first GSL. They have not delivered transparency, we can not force them to deliver transparency, so really the ball is in their court.
I think it is healthy to speculate that something fishy may be up, because we originally were just asking for transparency, giving them an honest chance to show that the tournament is legitimate and fair, yet they have not taken the opportunity to do so.
The behavior of GSL and the decisions they have made are obviously dictated by something other than just promoting esports in a fair, legitimate, and honest way.
Um. Accusing someone of rigging and fixing a tournament just because they haven't complied to your demands doesn't make the ball in their court. It doesn't change the burden of proof thing because you are still the one making the claim.
It just seems vindictive and petty. "They haven't given us full transparency so they must be rigging the tournament. So we shall make everyone know this!" Uh-oh.
You are misconstruing what I have said.
I am saying that we have given them the opportunity to show that the tournament is legitimate. They are the one trying to promote sc2 as an esport, if they want to show they have a legitimate tournament that is up to them. We can not force them to do so.
But if they are evasive about their tournament and are not transparent, it is only logical to ask the question of why that is so.
I'm sorry if I did and I edited my post to reply to your edit ^^
So far GSL hasn't been all that transparent however the real test will be next year. I'm not defending them, I do believe a greater degree of openness would do everyone good but that doesn't mean I'm willing to support speculation.
Especially one that has no real proof behind it and is so poorly constructed. We shouldn't take anything they say at point blank value, far from it. But we also need to be responsible enough to know that floating around topics like this will in fact create a huge stir or degenerate into a misinformed shit fest because that's the nature of the internet.
It is imperative for a GSL to retain it's integrity at the moment, because of the future of SC2. Unless they are actually, you know...guilty.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
This mentality is problematic, how is it killing e-sports by demanding a high level of integrity to make the competition legitimate?
The bigger problem is bringing up accusations that have no proof behind it and are just speculation. What the OP implied is now starting to create a snowball that can really damage the GSL and SC2 in Korea in general. It's very dangerous to bring up such claims without anything proving them.
I don't agree with rigging but I do believe in "innocent until proven guilty" which doesn't really fit on the internet where the mentality of a lynch mob prevails more often than not. The OP has no ways of proving his claim but GOM TV is in the same boat.
Implications are more than enough to create considerable damage to the reputation of the competition if enough people are willing to believe it. And TL is a place where people scream RIGGED after half of the matches anyway (just look the comment on Hyperdub vs MC) so naturally making a post like this is only adding fuel to the fire.
The poster is either very irresponsible or willingly acted with malicious intent. The burden on proof isn't and shouldn't be on GOM TV...but that isn't going to help them.
Well everyone has a right to their opinion. The OP is obviously very opinionated about this but anyone that takes his opinion as fact is making their own mistakes. He isn't making it for them.
The way corruption is unraveled is through speculation, which turns into investigation, which either proves or disproves there is corruption.
Bringing up the fact that there may be a problem with the legitimacy of GSL brackets is healthy, it is better to be safe than sorry, are we just supposed to mindlessly stay quiet and accept that everything that happens in GSL is fair and has no ulterior motive?
Gom TV could easily prove their tournament is legitimate with transparency, we have asked for it since S1 began, and they have failed to deliver. This begs the question of why their process has to be so clouded in the first place if they are innocent?
To an opinion, of course. But that doesn't absolve people of acting responsibly with those opinions. TL is very influential and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are either uninformed or will jump on the bandwagon just because they want some drama. That's not the way of going about things.
You used a real life example of how corruption is unraveled however it's not really applicable on the Internet where everyone can say anything and can go viral in an instant. The versions and "facts" will change as it spreads until all it has done is damage to the reputation of SC2, GSL and e-sports as a whole.
If something is rigged or corrupted then of course it has to be exposed and I'm all for it, but it shouldn't be done this way. And like always: the burden on proof is on someone making the claim, not the other way around.
Demanding transparency for future tournaments is one thing (and a good one) but accusing them of rigging past tournaments is a completely different ball game.
Ok well how about this, people have asked for transparency since the very first GSL. They have not delivered transparency, we can not force them to deliver transparency, so really the ball is in their court.
I think it is healthy to speculate that something fishy may be up, because we originally were just asking for transparency, giving them an honest chance to show that the tournament is legitimate and fair, yet they have not taken the opportunity to do so.
The behavior of GSL and the decisions they have made are obviously dictated by something other than just promoting esports in a fair, legitimate, and honest way.
Um. Accusing someone of rigging and fixing a tournament just because they haven't complied to your demands doesn't make the ball in their court. It doesn't change the burden of proof thing because you are still the one making the claim.
It just seems vindictive and petty. "They haven't given us full transparency so they must be rigging the tournament. So we shall make everyone know this!" Uh-oh.
You are misconstruing what I have said.
I am saying that we have given them the opportunity to show that the tournament is legitimate. They are the one trying to promote sc2 as an esport, if they want to show they have a legitimate tournament that is up to them. We can not force them to do so.
But if they are evasive about their tournament and are not transparent, it is only logical to ask the question of why that is so.
I'm sorry if I did and I edited my post to reply to your edit ^^
So far GSL hasn't been all that transparent however the real test will be next year. I'm not defending them, I do believe a greater degree of openness would do everyone good but that doesn't mean I'm willing to support speculation.
Especially one that has no real proof behind it and is so poorly constructed. We shouldn't take anything they say at point blank value, far from it. But we also need to be responsible enough to know that floating around topics like this will in fact create a huge stir or degenerate into a misinformed shit fest because that's the nature of the internet.
It is imperative for a GSL to retain it's integrity at the moment, because of the future of SC2. Unless they are actually, you know...guilty.
But while some view topics like this as harmful, there is also good that comes out of them.
Topics like this may force gom into action.
1. If they get called out by enough people they may be forced to show a legitimate process on how it is all determined.
2. If they are guilty, they may realize that they are going a little too far and people are starting to notice, and it may cause them to tone it down or become legitimate.
A similar example would be the NBA. There are a lot of people that are skeptical about the officiating in the playoffs. And then that ref got caught betting on games that he was officiating in, and he rolled over and said that certain series were blatantly manufactured. Now the nba was able to do some damage control and avoid getting caught for anything suspicious, but whether they were guilty or not, because their officiating has come under heavy scrutiny, they have tried to at least appear as though they are buckling down on it, and modifying rules so that things like possession calls at the end of the game can be accurate.
Why is this thread still open? Or why wasn't the title changed to something like "Is GomTV protecting Boxer"? Has teamliquid sunk to a sensationalist level? I bet that if someone finds some weird coincidence in MLG and posts something like this it will be closed in an instant...
At most, since they don't have a proper seeding system until after GSL3, they probably set up the ro64 to be evenly distributed in the brackets (and prevent possibly prevent big name clashes) but assuming they're rigging it so Boxer is only against T's is pretty baseless. Anything past the ro64 is all dependent on the players themselves.
For example, Boxer's next opponent could have been Zerg had the Zerg won over the T in the ro64. The maps were Delta Quadrant, Scrap Station and Xel'Naga Caverns, so it's not like anyone set the maps up against Zerg's favor. Scrap Station is said to be Zerg favored and the other two are the maps Moon (as Zerg) won on.
As for GSL2, his first matchup was indeed a TvT, but his next matchup was TvP. The third ended up being against Loner in a TvT again, but Loner had to get through a P and Z to get there, so Boxer could have very well been up against either that time around. His final TvT matchup in the GSL2 was against NaDa, who had previously beaten LeenockfOu (Zerg) so again Boxer's chance of being in another TvT was in the players hands.
Anyway, I really don't think theres anything sneaky being done here.
1. If they get called out by enough people they may be forced to show a legitimate process on how it is all determined.
2. If they are guilty, they may realize that they are going a little too far and people are starting to notice, and it may cause them to tone it down or become legitimate.
Isn't this the last season without seeding? Yes, they maybe fixed the brackets and it was good for e-sports because big stars advanced and attracted more attention and possibly more future sponsorship for upcoming seasons. Having SlayersBoxer, Nada and -almost certainly- JulyZerg to secure code S the best thing for GomTV and Blizzard that could happen right now.
In my opinion it's really likely the bracket is fixed.. guys come on, think about qualifications for GSL2 (didn't follow GSL3, so can't say anything about that), Nada's and Boxer's very easy opponents, getting lot of W.O. as well as no really big names fighting against each other (were there even 2 guys from top16 GSL1 playing against each other in GSL2?).. on the other hand, ask yourself - how would you like if Nada and Boxer met in qualification/ro64? Or Fruitdealer and ITR? Or Idra and ret? Yea, it would suck. It's still fixing though :/
the map rigging is much worse in my eyes, if it's true
1. If they get called out by enough people they may be forced to show a legitimate process on how it is all determined.
2. If they are guilty, they may realize that they are going a little too far and people are starting to notice, and it may cause them to tone it down or become legitimate.
Isn't this the last season without seeding? Yes, they maybe fixed the brackets and it was good for e-sports because big stars advanced and attracted more attention and possibly more future sponsorship for upcoming seasons. Having SlayersBoxer, Nada and -almost certainly- JulyZerg to secure code S the best thing for GomTV and Blizzard that could happen right now.
Well this is where personal opinion comes into play, for me artificially grown esport's scenes are not good for esports.
It would be like saying pop music is good for the integrity of music.
What would be good for esports is a game that is balanced to where the best player will usually win, and is perpetuated for the sake of highly competitive play, and not for the sake of revenue.
I already know how SC2 is going to turn out tbh. It's going to be pumped up by blizzard until shortly after the final expansion hits, and then it will be dropped like a bad habit for the next source of revenue.
Absolutely agree... I noticed the same thing myself. Obviously they stack the brackets so the favorites probably move on while still giving some good games. In any event if their stars are getting knocked out early then they'll obviously not be managing the business well since ppl will not be interested in no-names.
On December 01 2010 04:10 Batch wrote: I think we can asume the matchups are rigged to some degree. Otherwise they would have shown the bracket tree.
I would rather have a transparent organization but I don't know if that would be the best option for the sport or not.
I would have to agree with this. Nowhere have I seen the GomTV bracket tree for this season and the past two seasons, or if they existed, could you show me the links? The brackets for Boxer are really fishy in the first place, but then it is in their best interests if Boxer does progress as far as he can. It cannot hurt to have more transparency when suspicions like these arise. =\
On December 01 2010 04:10 Batch wrote: I think we can asume the matchups are rigged to some degree. Otherwise they would have shown the bracket tree.
I would rather have a transparent organization but I don't know if that would be the best option for the sport or not.
I would have to agree with this. Nowhere have I seen the GomTV bracket tree for this season and the past two seasons, or if they existed, could you show me the links? The brackets for Boxer are really fishy in the first place, but then it is in their best interests if Boxer does progress as far as he can. It cannot hurt to have more transparency when suspicions like these arise. =\
Thanks for posting the bracket trees. Still, I feel GomTV has to have a video recording of the random draws for group selections, like what the OSL and MSL do in their group selection ceremonies, with progamers present to oversee the process. This would be more fair in the viewers' eyes. ^^
On November 30 2010 23:25 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Every single tournament in the world is done like this. It would be stupid not to. If you're a newcomer, expect to be treated as such. The rest of the players have earned their dues. You don't think Boxer making it to the finals is better for EVERYONE? Bad ratings = bad paydays for everyone.
Moreover, you're making an ass out of everyone with these assumptions.
did you just...argue that the tournament IS rigged and then call the OP an ass for assuming that the tournament is rigged?
No. I said that every tournament is structured in a way to allow its stars to advance as far as they can. And that's not rigging the tournament. Rigging the tournament would be to have people purposely lose.
This is pretty plausible imo. Unfortunately rigging brackets in large tourneys is nothing new, hell even the OSL brackets are usually set up so that the best players can end up in the finals for epic viewership right?
On December 01 2010 04:10 Batch wrote: I think we can asume the matchups are rigged to some degree. Otherwise they would have shown the bracket tree.
I would rather have a transparent organization but I don't know if that would be the best option for the sport or not.
I would have to agree with this. Nowhere have I seen the GomTV bracket tree for this season and the past two seasons, or if they existed, could you show me the links? The brackets for Boxer are really fishy in the first place, but then it is in their best interests if Boxer does progress as far as he can. It cannot hurt to have more transparency when suspicions like these arise. =\
Has nobody here heard of seeding? People are dragging in the fact big names don't face each other early as evidence that boxer is getting stacked racial matchups... lol.
It's true that some of this discussion may sound terrible and inflammatory, but really the outcome can be good.
Either this issue will completely die out and be disregarded and some fans stop watching while most continue tuning in, or evidence one way or the other will be found or provided by someone and the truth is revealed for better or worse.
Should no one have investigated the illegal Brood War match-fixing suspicions because it might defame famous players and jeopardize the entire business? While some players' reputations were unjustly tarnished during the investigations, violations on others were found and sentenced. The truth was found and the sport lives on for its viewers.
Honesty of players and organizers is very important.
The idea that someone may be manually creating the brackets to give advantages to star players is a hideous one to me in what should be presented as a fair and unseeded bracket to determine who is the best of the best in random fashion for future seasons.
Imagine being a rising star Terran player. You have excellent TvT and TvP, but your TvZ is rubbish. It's your first time in the GSL, and you find yourself against Fruitdealer in round one, who is very good against Terran.
What dreadful luck! Your worst match-up against a champion Zerg! And you predictably lose.
Now imagine that it wasn't random chance that you battled Fruitdealer, but someone in an office intentionally put you against Fruitdealer in the first round because that would give him a better chance at winning and thus drawing in more viewers for the next round.
How would you feel about that? Is that fair?
Next season is the start of seeding based on GSL points, so this should not be an issue then, but if players are currently being boosted by artificial brackets, then the entire point rank would be tainted already. It's a tough and scaly issue for sure.
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
And now we take a look at the WC 2010 South Africa seeding. South Africa - the host nation - gets a better seed disregarding their past performance. Is the FIFA rigging the brackets?
About the "map rigging". Let's look at ZvT. Total amount of maps? 9. Total amount of "unfair" maps? 4 (Steppes, Delta, LT, Jungle).
3 bad maps: 1 2 bad maps: 10 1 bad map: 7 0 bad maps: 2
Now let's compare the "perfect" distribution vs "real" distribution: 3 bad maps: 4.8% vs 5% 2 bad maps: 35.7% vs 50% 1 bad map: 47.6% vs 35% 0 bad maps: 11.9% vs 10%
Sorry - this doesnt looks rigged towards certain players for me. Sure they could rig every map selection so it evens out at the end - but _really_?
It looks so bad for Z in ZvT, because people consider ~50% (44%) of the available maps bad. Not because of the mapselection.
About Boxer (ignoring the fact that they seed the Top4 in different brackets): Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36% Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43% Getting TvT in both RO64: 15% It's not really that unlikely.
But an interesting fact (edit): They said they put the Top4 in different brackets. That changed from GSL2 to GSL3. Top4 in GSL1 was Rainbow, Cool, Ensare, NEXLiveForever But in GSL2 Ensnare & Cool where in the same bracket - they could meet in RO8.
On December 01 2010 05:22 dolpiff wrote: nicely proven point you made there OP
so maybe add a poll to see who thinks it's unfair vs who think its good for short-term sc2 popularity? (i think i agree more with the later)
I'm still not entirely sure that there is fixing to begin with. With a lot of Terrans, you will see TvTs. With a large percentage of un-zerg-friendly maps, you will see biased maps.
On December 01 2010 05:22 dolpiff wrote: nicely proven point you made there OP
so maybe add a poll to see who thinks it's unfair vs who think its good for short-term sc2 popularity? (i think i agree more with the later)
I'm still not entirely sure that there is fixing to begin with. With a lot of Terrans, you will see TvTs. With a large percentage of un-zerg-friendly maps, you will see biased maps.
By their own admission we already know they handpick the brackets to some degree.
Once GomTV stopped allowing the players to choose their own maps, it became obvious that Gom doesn't really care about competitive gaming - they're interested in ratings. I'm sure they might try to appeal to the competitive gaming scene in order to accomplish their ultimate goal, but make no mistake, they're still a business, money is what they're after.
On December 01 2010 05:33 JTWStephens wrote: Once GomTV stopped allowing the players to choose their own maps, it became obvious that Gom doesn't really care about competitive gaming - they're interested in ratings. I'm sure they might try to appeal to the competitive gaming scene in order to accomplish their ultimate goal, but make no mistake, they're still a business, money is what they're after.
This only reaffirms that.
I thought it was obvious the artificial marketing they were doing when in the first GSL they had tasteless zooming in on buildings to show off sc2 lighting and graphics.
On December 01 2010 00:41 Krallin wrote: Any tournament organizer does this purposefully, you do not want to have name players kicking each other out in the RO64. The fact is that they don't have meaningful rankings at the moment, so they're forced to really on information like Boxer saying his best MU is TvT. Once they do have rankings, brackets will probably be determined using them (because this way, they will provide the most interesting/entertaining/uncertain games).
You don't see Nadal playing Federer in the first round of any tennis tournament, do you?
Tennis seeding is based on past performance while GSL seeding is based on what will get the most viewers.
And now we take a look at the WC 2010 South Africa seeding. South Africa - the host nation - gets a better seed disregarding their past performance. Is the FIFA rigging the brackets?
About the "map rigging". Let's look at ZvT. Total amount of maps? 9. Total amount of "unfair" maps? 4 (Steppes, Delta, LT, Jungle).
3 bad maps: 1 2 bad maps: 10 1 bad map: 7 0 bad maps: 2
Now let's compare the "perfect" distribution vs "real" distribution: 3 bad maps: 4.8% vs 5% 2 bad maps: 35.7% vs 50% 1 bad map: 47.6% vs 35% 0 bad maps: 11.9% vs 10%
Sorry - this doesnt looks rigged towards certain players for me. Sure they could rig every map selection so it evens out at the end - but _really_?
It looks so bad for Z in ZvT, because people consider ~50% (44%) of the available maps bad. Not because of the mapselection.
About Boxer (ignoring the fact that they seed the Top4 in different brackets): Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36% Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43% Getting TvT in both RO64: 15% It's not really that unlikely.
But an interesting fact (edit): They said they put the Top4 in different brackets. That changed from GSL2 to GSL3. Top4 in GSL1 was Rainbow, Cool, Ensare, NEXLiveForever But in GSL2 Ensnare & Cool where in the same bracket - they could meet in RO8.
There we go! Somebody who actually did the effort and has some numbers to back him up. Nice job Zocat. The numbers are actually kind of interesting outside of this discussion as well.
the question is whether its better for esports in korea, that ex-bw progamers would just crush the scene or that bw-progamers just get crushed hard. first scenario might encourage bw-nerds to call sc2 way too easy of a game. second scenario obviously they run danger that pros might accuse balance issues or just dont see a chance to make profit.
Guess what... the NCAA baketball tournaments are also setup in such a fashion. So if it takes place in sports then why not esports? If it makes the tournament more fun then who cares as long as it's not ridiculous.
OK, let's assume the OP is telling the truth. GOM did fix it so Boxer got lots of TvTs. Here's who was in on it in GSL2:
Had to be in on it: Terious: To guarantee a Terran from his part of the bracket, one has to make it through. Loner vs Bleach had already played, and there was a 50/50 shot of a Terran making it through. Terious had to be in on it to let through PoltPrime in case Loner didn't make it. He then lets through Loner in the next round so Boxer has a TvT in RO16.
Chief: Had to be in on it because he's the only thing standing in the way of a Terran from the bottom half of the bracket to the RO16.
Leenock: Had to be in on it to let through a Terran in the RO16 so Boxer faces one in RO8.
Might have been in on it: Happiness: He let Boxer through the first round.
Almost certainly weren't in on it: CoreJJang: He beat his Terran opponent, setting up Boxer for a TvP in RO32 instead of the potential TvT. Maybe this was done to make it less suspicious, since he then lost to Boxer, so he could have been in on it, but not entirely likely.
Conclusion: OP is utterly stupid and how did this thread make it to 17 pages when it started off with the most idiotic proposition ever?
On December 01 2010 05:48 jhokie wrote: Guess what... the NCAA baketball tournaments are also setup in such a fashion. So if it takes place in sports then why not esports? If it makes the tournament more fun then who cares as long as it's not ridiculous.
On December 01 2010 05:34 MementoMori wrote: There we go! Somebody who actually did the effort and has some numbers to back him up. Nice job Zocat. The numbers are actually kind of interesting outside of this discussion as well.
Thanks And since I am bored (and sick QQ):
I assigned a strength value to each player. Not qualified: 0 RO64 appearance: 1 RO32 appearance: 2 RO16 appearance: 4 RO08 appearance: 8 RO04 appearance: 16 I believe anyone in Top4 could take the tournament - therefore I dont think I should give finalists / winner more strength (you could discuss this decision)
So someone like Rainbow would have for GSL3: GSL1 RO02 + GSL2 RO04 = 16 + 16 = 32 Boxer would have: GSL 1 NQ + GSL2 RO04 = 0 + 16 = 16
Playertable (layout broken and I'm not going to fix it^^) + Show Spoiler +
Everyone else has 0 strength. (Remark: I dont know if cOre is the same person as CoreJJang - I treated them as the same person)
This leads to the following bracket strengths: For GSL2: Bracket A: 42 Bracket B: 46 Bracket C: 8 Bracket D: 18
For GSL3: using only GSL2 strength: Bracket A: 33 Bracket B: 28 Bracket C: 34 Bracket D: 30
using total strength: Bracket A: 47 Bracket B: 64 Bracket C: 46 Bracket D: 38
Take those numbers for what you want Boxer bracket was C in GSL 2 and is D in GSL3. Bracket D also looks interesting in GSL2. Maybe because of IdrA (only fan favourite I can see there)?
Also keep in mind some players who placed very high in GSL1 (sSKS, TOP, LiveForever) didnt play in GSL2. If you place LiveForever & TOP in C and sSKS in D it looks pretty even suddenly. Only 3 16point amd 3 8point persons were in GSL2. So we're missing ~24points for 2 slots.
To argue that intentionally preparing the brackets of an unseeded preliminary tournament for prize money by saying that many other professional tournaments do it for entertainment value is a poor excuse for the practice. Everyone else does it, so it must be acceptable everywhere?
You have to remember that these first three GSLs are not just entertainment. They are both the professional lives for the players and teams as well as a business for the event organizers. While it may seem advantageous for organizers to guarantee star players advance and rake in more viewers and support and prizes for those players, these games are also being played for ranking points for future seasons.
The place players finish could make or break their future GSL appearances, and if any player, even in the first round, is manually set up with a favorable match instead of given a random opponent, even if it means knocking out another star, then the results are skewed by the organizers to ensure their star players persist and continue to pull in more viewers and profit at the expense of sacrificial players.
To say that such artificial arrangement is beneficial to the sport because it benefits the event organizers so they have more viewers and in turn more money and advertising to continue, really damages the image of the sport as legitimate competition, at least to me.
Junkka said on his Twitter that the brackets are made up by him and 5 other people so it's blatantly obvious that they wanted Boxer to start off RO64 with a TvT (and they probably planned for a Boxer v Moon RO16 too).
Again I think it's fine, as long as they don't also pick the maps to favour certain players (while publicly claim that maps are random).
GOM is trading their league's long term credibility and prestige for short term popularity. GOM is playing a very dangerous game and I hope they know what they are doing, cos Korean fans are not very forgiving when it comes to this kind of things.
On December 01 2010 06:53 mrdx wrote: Junkka said on his Twitter that the brackets are made up by him and 5 other people so it's blatantly obvious that they wanted Boxer to start off RO64 with a TvT (and they probably planned for a Boxer v Moon RO16 too).
Again I think it's fine, as long as they don't also pick the maps to favour certain players (while publicly claim that maps are random).
GOM is trading their league's long term credibility and prestige for short term popularity. GOM is playing a very dangerous game and I hope they know what they are doing, cos Korean fans are not very forgiving when it comes to this kind of things.
This is assuming they are truly fixing... which is for now... the only think people are doing. Even if He has had a lot of TvTs, the Ts he played against were against another race so technically it couldve been a zerg or protoss
About Boxer Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36% Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43% Getting TvT in both RO64: 15% It's not really that unlikely.
You are looking at it wrong
You need to calculate just how many TvT's there actually were
GSL SEASON 2 RO64: There were 24 T match ups, only 4 were TvT. Boxer gets 1.
GSL SEASON 3 RO64: There were 22 T match ups, only 2 were TvT. Guess what, Boxer gets it!
This goes on and on. There's only a few TvT's, and Boxer always manages to get it
About Boxer Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36% Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43% Getting TvT in both RO64: 15% It's not really that unlikely.
You are looking at it wrong
You need to calculate just how many TvT's there actually were
GSL SEASON 2 RO64: There were 24 T match ups, only 4 were TvT. Boxer gets 1.
GSL SEASON 3 RO64: There were 22 T match ups, only 2 were TvT. Guess what, Boxer gets it!
This goes on and on. There's only a few TvT's, and Boxer always manages to get it
Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
On December 01 2010 07:10 dragonblade369 wrote: Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
Brackets are carefully orchestrated by 6 people...
About Boxer Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL2: 23/63 = 36% Chances of TvT in RO64 GSL3: 27/63 = 43% Getting TvT in both RO64: 15% It's not really that unlikely.
You are looking at it wrong
You need to calculate just how many TvT's there actually were
GSL SEASON 2 RO64: There were 24 T match ups, only 4 were TvT. Boxer gets 1.
GSL SEASON 3 RO64: There were 22 T match ups, only 2 were TvT. Guess what, Boxer gets it!
This goes on and on. There's only a few TvT's, and Boxer always manages to get it
There are 25 ZvX. Only 1 ZvR. Monster gets 1. Following your logic Monster was given the Random. Only 2 ZvZ. Fruitdealer gets 1. Following your logic Fruitdealer was given a ZvZ from them. In GSL2 0 ZvZ. Fruitdealer therefore get's 100% a ZvZ in RO64 if there is at least one ZvZ. (Edit: GSL1 clearly doesnt count, because no one knew the favourites back then!)
But ok - let's assume you're correct. Can you explain the "This goes on and on" part? How do they give Boxer TvT in RO32/16/8/4? Please explain how they're able to do this. Please consider the fact, that when you look at the T distribution in GSL2. A-7 B-7 C-8 D-7. The same amount of Ts in all brackets.
On December 01 2010 07:10 dragonblade369 wrote: Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
Whenever GOMtv see's the opportunity to place Boxer in a TvT, 9 out of 10, they did. That's a fact. (the only other time was a TvP against cOreZenith in the RO32, Season 2)
But how can they place him in a TvT outside of the Ro64, when the brackets are decided in advance? Do they also fix the games to make sure he gets to play other Terrans in the ro32 and ro16?
On December 01 2010 07:10 dragonblade369 wrote: Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
Whenever GOMtv see's the opportunity to place Boxer in a TvT, 9 out of 10, they did. That's a fact. (the only other time was a TvP against cOreZenith in the RO32, Season 2)
But how can they place him in a TvT outside of the Ro64, when the brackets are decided in advance? Do they also fix the games to make sure he gets to play other Terrans in the ro32 and ro16?
Yes, they do. I explained in my post that 3 people were in on this, and 1 might have been.
Terious, Chief and Leenock were all paid-off in order to ensure the maximum number of TvTs for Boxer in GSL2. This is an undisputable fact.
Also, in the groups there were 7 terrans in each group except Boxers, which had 8. Of those 8 terrans in Boxers group, there were 2 TvTs, so a maximum of 6 terrans could make it through. That number (6) is equal with 1 other groups, but below one group, which had no TvTs, so 7 Terrans could make it through and above another where 5 could make it. That group had TWO TvT RO64s. That means the terrans were effectively evenly difivded at the RO64 stage, with 7 or 8 Terrans per group, and 6 or 7 being able to make it through the first round.
Group A: 7 terrans in RO64. 7 can make it through. 7 terrans in RO32, 4 can make it through. 4 terrans in RO16, 2 can make it through. 2 terrans in RO8, 1 can make it through.
Group B: 7 terrans in RO64, 5 can make it through 5 terrans in RO32, 4 can make it through. 4 terrans in RO16, 2 can make it through. 2 terrans in RO8, 1 can make it through.
Group C: (Boxers group) 8 terrans in RO64, 6 can make it through. 6 terrans in RO32, 3 can make it through. 3 terrans in RO16, 2 can make it through. 2 terrans in RO8, 1 can make it through.
Group D: 7 terrans in RO64, 6 can make it through. 6 terrans in RO32, 4 can make it through. 4 terrans in RO16, 2 can make it through. 2 terrans in RO8, 1 can make it through.
So in fact, Boxers group had the lowest chance of TvTs in certain rounds, although not on boxers half of the bracket. Of the 8 games in the RO16, 7 of them could have ended up being TvT. 7 of 8. And you are saying it's a fix because Boxers was? The only one that could NOT have been a TvT was Nada vs his opponent. Every single other RO16 could have been a TvT, and leading up to that, many RO32 games could also have been TvT.
RO32 TvT possibilities: 9 of 16 RO16 TvT possibilities: 7 of 8 RO8 TvT possibilities: 4 of 4 RO4 TvT possibilities: 2 of 2 Final TvT possibilities: 1 of 1
Amazingly enough, the round with the lowest TvT possibilities, the RO32, is where Boxer didn't play a TvT, he played TvP.
On December 01 2010 07:10 dragonblade369 wrote: Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
Whenever GOMtv see's the opportunity to place Boxer in a TvT, 9 out of 10, they did. That's a fact. (the only other time was a TvP against cOreZenith in the RO32, Season 2)
I see this in almost all sports. However, they still have to compete and win. In the end Boxer still has to play a highly skilled player in the end to win. And he has to play against pro players to get there regardless.
Are you saying its rigged beyond brackets? Or that Boxer doesn't have the skill to handle Zerg or Protoss? If not, they aren't doing anything different. Keep in mind these GSL seasons 1-3 are still seeding for the other seasons. Based on seeding this becomes irrelevant. In fact, you could say that these seasons become irrelevant once the ranking system comes in.
Still, hero or not, he doesn't deserve any special treatment in a competition. But here's the other thing, how likely is it that he was told by GOM they are doing this for him? And if its being done by GOM, is it the decision of their president, or the 6 people who create the brackets without the knowledge of the tournament itself?
If we're saying brackets are set at R64, then GOM has placed him TvT only twice. Not 9/10 times. Everything else was by random chance. You are implying that they rig matches to let Terrans advance so that Boxer plays against Terrans.
From reading the title I expected some crazy fan assault on Boxer that was prevented by hero body guards etc.
This post doesn't seem to have gotten a lot of attention, but I think the point is valid:
On November 30 2010 13:59 Fenneth wrote: It's human nature to find patterns and coincidences in random data. I'd suggest holding back a little on the accusations of wide-scale conspiracy based on a few scraps of flimsy data.
With the logic applied in this thread for the maps for example, you could conclude that FruitDealer should have never won GSL1. Its just the 3rd Season and a really small sample size, don't jump to conclusions.
On December 01 2010 07:10 dragonblade369 wrote: Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
Whenever GOMtv see's the opportunity to place Boxer in a TvT, 9 out of 10, they did. That's a fact. (the only other time was a TvP against cOreZenith in the RO32, Season 2)
But how can they place him in a TvT outside of the Ro64, when the brackets are decided in advance? Do they also fix the games to make sure he gets to play other Terrans in the ro32 and ro16?
Yes, they do. I explained in my post that 3 people were in on this, and 1 might have been.
Terious, Chief and Leenock were all paid-of in order to ensure the maximum number of TvTs for Boxer in GSL2. This is an undisputable fact.
I don't know why you call this undisputable when your own quoted post says "let's assume this is all true" and that the OP made an "idiotic proposition".
But basically yes, this thread, and the OP idea is implying that they are rigging the games. Not rigging the brackets or "protecting" boxer. Its implying they are rigging the game intentionally to the point where people are "taking the fall" to advance certain players. All of the negotiation is done post qualifications however, in a very small window between qualifying and R64. Unless of course, the rigging starts PRE-qualification, which means the plot thickens!
On December 01 2010 07:10 dragonblade369 wrote: Instead of saying that ppl are wrong or whatnot, tell me how can GOMTV control the result of the games. If they want BoxeR to play TvT, they have to put T exclusively on his side of bracket, which is not the case. After the Ro64, there is a chance that BoxeR might play a Zerg. What you are saying is that GOM also fixed the games which are not true at all.
Whenever GOMtv see's the opportunity to place Boxer in a TvT, 9 out of 10, they did. That's a fact. (the only other time was a TvP against cOreZenith in the RO32, Season 2)
But how can they place him in a TvT outside of the Ro64, when the brackets are decided in advance? Do they also fix the games to make sure he gets to play other Terrans in the ro32 and ro16?
Yes, they do. I explained in my post that 3 people were in on this, and 1 might have been.
Terious, Chief and Leenock were all paid-of in order to ensure the maximum number of TvTs for Boxer in GSL2. This is an undisputable fact.
I don't know why you call this undisputable when your own quoted post says "let's assume this is all true" and that the OP made an "idiotic proposition".
But basically yes, this thread, and the OP idea is implying that they are rigging the games. Not rigging the brackets or "protecting" boxer. Its implying they are rigging the game intentionally to the point where people are "taking the fall" to advance certain players. All of the negotiation is done post qualifications however, in a very small window between qualifying and R64. Unless of course, the rigging starts PRE-qualification, which means the plot thickens!
I was being silly, pointing out how stupid the OP is, and in fact this entire thread which is based on the OP.
Well I don't know if there's a big conspiracy behind all of Boxer's TvT but it definitely seems suspicious seeing that he gets so many terran players. Then again even GOM can't plan the matches beyond Ro64, so this is probably unlikely. It would be nice to see boxer play the other MUs as well ^_^
People are citing GSL2 as why did Boxer have so many TvTs
Ro64: TvT: If they prepared this, how could they have. By this they wouldnt have known Ro32: TvP (enough said, this is a protoss, not a terran) Ro16: TvT (vs loner): Couldve been a TvZ but Loner hung on a thread(almost lost), also couldve been a protoss. The available opponents were : 2 T, 1 p 1 Z Ro8 TvT( Vs Nada): Couldve been Leenock: if Nada lost (which almost happened). At this stage fromt he other bracket there was 3 Terran, 3 Protoss, and 2 Zerg, any couldve been his Ro8 Fighter Ro4 TvZ (Vs Nestea the winner)
I am sick and tired of people who are absolutely certain that the match-ups are rigged just because they "look fishy". Do some statistical analysis and figure out the percentages and probabilities, then you can be certain. But until you look at it properly, "looks fishy" doesn't cut it.
Seeding is fine. It's done in most significant sports tournaments. It adds importance to season games after a team/player has qualified for the playoffs; without them, a player who has qualified for the tournament might not take his later matches as seriously.
But in good tournaments, seeds are generated by a publicly known algorithm. Moreover, setting up good players against bad is not the same as setting them up with favorable race matchups or maps.
The idea that Gomtv is rigging brackets to help boxer is such an insult to the players in the tournament. In GSL 2 Loner won 2-1 vs a zerg and a protoss in order to face boxer, and nada had to beat leenock (also 2-1), who's turning out to be one of the best zergs in sc2. People are devaluing their victories by saying that it's a "rigged bracket", and that's just shameful.
And look at the upcoming match-up Jinro vs Moon. If Jinro wins, then it's rigged for TvT. If Moon wins, then it's rigged for a star matchup. Gom can't win. No matter what happens, there will be people complaining and looking for conspiracies.
prob of 5 tvt = .016 prob of 4 tvt = .008+.022+.033+.026+.021 = .110 prob of 3 tvt = .011+.016+.044+.013+.035+.052+.010+.027+.041+.032 = .281
prob of at least 3 tvt ~ 41%
Assuming that exactly the same people made it to each round in GSL 2, SlayerS_BoxeR had a 41% chance of encountering at least 3 other terrans. So, the fact that he did? Not at all an indication it was "fixed".
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see the relationship between total number of Terran in a given round and the likelihood that Boxer, or anyone, will encounter one in that round.
The chance of Boxer hitting a Terran in round 2 would not be based on the number of Terrans in the round, but simply by the adjacent matchup to determine his opponent, which happened to be TvZ.
So based on the brackets presented, he was 50% likely to hit Terran or Zerg, disregarding any skill gap between the involved players or map issues. Had the match been ZvP instead, it would have been a 0% chance of a Terran opponent.
And would not the other 2 matches on that corner of the bracket lead to another 50% chance of Terran for round 3?
The other two matches are TvZ and TvZ, which means the possible outcomes, ignoring player skill levels and maps, would be TvT, TvZ, TvZ, and ZvZ, which means the likelihood of a Terran advancing again from that group, even though it's full of Zerg, is still 50%, right?
If someone could tell me more about that probability, I'd like to know if that's right or wrong please.
Boxer's corner of his group is the only one with all 4 TvX to give this kind of chance to any player in it this season. Now, the other side of his bracket group is a different story, containing players like Idra, Check, and MVP.
But really, no one can expect Boxer to ride a wave of lucky TvT all the way to the finals, he would just need to advance far enough and against the most entertaining and favorable opponents to draw in the crowds for as long as could be foreseen.
If this is just chance or through predictably planned brackets, no one can say for sure, but it's strange to me.
On December 01 2010 09:16 CanucksJC wrote: Even if this did happen, can you really blame Gom for doing it? If I ran the tournament, I 'd do everything in my power to have Boxer vs NaDa finals
What if you were in the tournament and this happened
Ro64 - CanucksJC vs NesTea Ro32 - CanucksJC vs FruitDealer Ro16 - CanucksJC vs HongUn Ro8 - CanucksJC vs ITR Ro4 - CanucksJC vs Marine King
while
Ro64 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro32 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro16 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro8 - BoxeR vs random unknown etc
Meh, I don't really care. I'd much rather everything just be completely random, fa cup style. That is if we can't have Swiss-style tourneys which I guess would never happen
On December 01 2010 09:16 CanucksJC wrote: Even if this did happen, can you really blame Gom for doing it? If I ran the tournament, I 'd do everything in my power to have Boxer vs NaDa finals
What if you were in the tournament and this happened
Ro64 - CanucksJC vs NesTea Ro32 - CanucksJC vs FruitDealer Ro16 - CanucksJC vs HongUn Ro8 - CanucksJC vs ITR Ro4 - CanucksJC vs Marine King
while
Ro64 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro32 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro16 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro8 - BoxeR vs random unknown etc
Would you not be a little upset?
Except they didn't do that, because Boxer met Nada in the RO8 in GSL2. While one might be upset if they did do that, they didn't do that when it was possible, so...
On December 01 2010 09:16 CanucksJC wrote: Even if this did happen, can you really blame Gom for doing it? If I ran the tournament, I 'd do everything in my power to have Boxer vs NaDa finals
What if you were in the tournament and this happened
Ro64 - CanucksJC vs NesTea Ro32 - CanucksJC vs FruitDealer Ro16 - CanucksJC vs HongUn Ro8 - CanucksJC vs ITR Ro4 - CanucksJC vs Marine King
while
Ro64 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro32 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro16 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro8 - BoxeR vs random unknown etc
Would you not be a little upset?
Umm... you realize that CanucksJC would be a random unknown so it would be the same lol
On December 01 2010 09:16 CanucksJC wrote: Even if this did happen, can you really blame Gom for doing it? If I ran the tournament, I 'd do everything in my power to have Boxer vs NaDa finals
What if you were in the tournament and this happened
Ro64 - CanucksJC vs NesTea Ro32 - CanucksJC vs FruitDealer Ro16 - CanucksJC vs HongUn Ro8 - CanucksJC vs ITR Ro4 - CanucksJC vs Marine King
while
Ro64 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro32 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro16 - BoxeR vs random unknown Ro8 - BoxeR vs random unknown etc
Would you not be a little upset?
No, I'd probably understand that tournaments tend to have seeds.
I can't wait for the regular GSL schedule to start in Jan. Finally there will be for reals seeding, no more of this (most likely not) random qualification groups and tournament seeding.
On December 01 2010 09:41 Soulish wrote: Nada didn't even qualify, so I think your theory is discounted right there.
Not that I necessarily agree with the OP, but I don't think Nada not qualifying nullifies his point.
You really don't know what would have happened with Nada's match-ups if he had qualified, and he lost to a random, no-name guy, right? He *should* have won his qualifiers.
Sometimes you lose to people worse than you, or to unpredictable builds. Like how Tester keeps losing early on in the GSL.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Klamity wrote: The current ratio in TvT is 50% T wins. I think it's an extremely fair matchup.
actually its 100% T wins, you fail at basic math
No you do. Say you have 3 TvT's, theres 6 T's playing, 3 win, so terrans win 3 games but terrans also lose 3 games, hence terran having a 50% winning percentage.
actually it would definitely be 100%, the win ratio refers to what % of the matches terran wins, so the equation is: games won over games played, which has nothing to do with games lost. the 50% statistic eludes to two seperate players each keeping their own tally, when this matter is looked at exclusively through race statistics, you find that terran does indeed win 100% of the time, but T also conversely loses 100% of the time, i would call it a pardox, but the fact that a typical game consists of two seperate players can easily explain this circumstance.
On November 30 2010 13:52 Klamity wrote: The current ratio in TvT is 50% T wins. I think it's an extremely fair matchup.
actually its 100% T wins, you fail at basic math
No you do. Say you have 3 TvT's, theres 6 T's playing, 3 win, so terrans win 3 games but terrans also lose 3 games, hence terran having a 50% winning percentage.
actually it would definitely be 100%, the win ratio refers to what % of the matches terran wins, so the equation is: games won over games played, which has nothing to do with games lost. the 50% statistic eludes to two seperate players each keeping their own tally, when this matter is looked at exclusively through race statistics, you find that terran does indeed win 100% of the time, but T also conversely loses 100% of the time, i would call it a pardox, but the fact that a typical game consists of two seperate players can easily explain this circumstance.
Agreed. Whenever everyone plays as Terran, every game is won as Terran. It would be 50% if half were won by Terran and half were won by Zerg or Protoss. Terran win 100% of games that are TvT. This is what we're looking at with winning percentage. You don't average winning percentage and losing percentage to get the winning percentage >.>
The OP might have a point, but he doesn't make it very well.
As far as I understand in the GSL - like in every major tournament in any sport or e-sport - the organisers don't just set up the match ups for a round as the round starts, they set up ALL match ups as the tournament opens and from then on it just depends who wins. I imagine this is precisely because of possible accusations of favoritism.
SO
If the OP really has a point wouldn't it be better to make it by looking at Boxers group and the players in it, then the players he could possibly go against after that and so on? It seems to me that linking stats like 80% TvT means absolutely nothing because if a few of terrans Boxer played against had to beat strong P or Z opposition before they played Boxer it would mean that if those terrans had lost Boxer would have had to play against the strong P or Z instead.
Or do I have this totally wrong and the GSL works by some secret comittee decision of who should play who before every round starts?
On November 30 2010 13:38 PartyBiscuit wrote: First of all, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ro64 matches are planned and indeed not random (no foreigners killing one another, no legends killing one another, and Boxer gets the TvT).
However, using the "facts" of GSL2 where Boxer gets the Ro16 and Ro8 TvT matches aren't actual reasons of set-up. Again, they gave Boxer and Nada an easyish bracket (only real name was Loner) so they had a decent chance of meeting up in Ro8 - other than that it ENTIRELY depends on how the other contestants play...Boxer could have been rolled by Core, nobody knows - since Core was NOT expected to beat Bless (which would have given Boxer a TvT in Ro32), Loner could have and indeed ALMOST lost to Terrious in Round of 32, which would give Boxer a ZvT.
The only "fact" you have is that the Ro64 are planned - and in fact, it benefits not just Boxer but the foreigners and all the legends as well.
Trust me you wouldn't want to watch BabyWerra make it into the round of 32 anyway.
This seems to be a rather widely accepted opinion in Korea as well.
On December 01 2010 10:17 Sanguinarius wrote: After the RO64 - alot of matches are up in the air. Sure, they can give him a TVT for ro64, but after that its pretty random.
Why does everyone say after the round of 64 it is random? The brackets are established at the round of 64 and players advance to face players parallel with them. While no one can 100% predict the winner in any match, if the brackets are established to increase the chances of a favorable race or encounter, it can be done at this stage and continue into later rounds.
It's not as if Boxer wins his first TvT and then randomly draws an opponent from the other 31 players in the tournament. He had a 50% chance of facing Polt or Joon and no one else. That's half Terran or half Zerg. A coin toss, but if Polt was the favored player in that series with a higher chance of winning, then it would be more than likely of Boxer facing Polt in round 2 instead of a Zerg.
In both season 2 and season 3, the first match ups parallel with Boxer in his group have been TvX with him always getting one of the only TvT, his safest matchup, in the entire tournament opening round. So in both the Ro32 and Ro16 there was a 50% chance of meeting a Terran based on the players immediately around him in his group. And while this did not happen in season 2, since CoreJJang, a Protoss, upset the WC3 favorite Lyn, a Terran, in the first round, Boxer instead faced the Protoss.
It should be said that this does not confirm or deny anything, as it could be said that any player in Boxer's corner of the group have the exact same chances based on race and that 50% is indeed a coin flip chance either way for better or worse.
But the fact that all players face similar odds does not ignore the fact that those odds consistently give Boxer a 50% chance of his best matchup for the first 3 rounds of the tournament, ignoring any player skill gaps between adjacent winners Polt, Jinro, and Moon and their opponents this season.
But regardless of any of this, it is absolutely not up in the air as the tournament advances, as the brackets can only advance forward on their tracks. You can't predict who will win, and surprising upsets do happen, but it is possible to guide things along gently under favorable circumstances if brackets are manually arranged at the start, which is the real issue.
On December 01 2010 10:17 Sanguinarius wrote: After the RO64 - alot of matches are up in the air. Sure, they can give him a TVT for ro64, but after that its pretty random.
Why does everyone say after the round of 64 it is random? The brackets are established at the round of 64 and players advance to face players parallel with them. While no one can 100% predict the winner in any match, if the brackets are established to increase the chances of a favorable race or encounter, it can be done at this stage and continue into later rounds.
It's not as if Boxer wins his first TvT and then randomly draws an opponent from the other 31 players in the tournament. He had a 50% chance of facing Polt or Joon and no one else. That's half Terran or half Zerg. A coin toss, but if Polt was the favored player in that series with a higher chance of winning, then it would be more than likely of Boxer facing Polt in round 2 instead of a Zerg.
In both season 2 and season 3, the first match ups parallel with Boxer in his group have been TvX with him always getting one of the only TvT, his safest matchup, in the entire tournament opening round. So in both the Ro32 and Ro16 there was a 50% chance of meeting a Terran based on the players immediately around him in his group. And while this did not happen in season 2, since CoreJJang, a Protoss, upset the WC3 favorite Lyn, a Terran, in the first round, Boxer instead faced the Protoss.
It should be said that this does not confirm or deny anything, as it could be said that any player in Boxer's corner of the group have the exact same chances based on race and that 50% is indeed a coin flip chance either way for better or worse.
But the fact that all players face similar odds does not ignore the fact that those odds consistently give Boxer a 50% chance of his best matchup for the first 3 rounds of the tournament, ignoring any player skill gaps between adjacent winners Polt, Jinro, and Moon and their opponents this season.
But regardless of any of this, it is absolutely not up in the air as the tournament advances, as the brackets can only advance forward on their tracks. You can't predict who will win, and surprising upsets do happen, but it is possible to guide things along gently under favorable circumstances if brackets are manually arranged at the start, which is the real issue.
But in GSL2 they didn't, at all. Pretty much every group had a similar chance of a T progressing down any route and getting lots of TvTs. It just happens that Boxer was the one who went down a TvT route because that's how the games went. Across all brackets it could have happened wherever he was based on the potential outcomes of matchups. That it did happen is just chance/coincidence, but it doesn't matter where he was, it could still have happened even if he was in an entirely different slot of a different bracket, so it wasn't fixed in any way.
Its impossible to rig that sort of thing directly, because the brackets are set. They can "try" by placing certain people in certain brackets in the intial rounds, but its entirely possible that someone unexpected could win, and mess there entire plan. The fact is, there is so many terrans around that TvT is pretty common. Have you thought to look at any of the other terrans who got a fair way? Its possible they played more TvT's than BoxeR did
On December 01 2010 11:10 Wetty wrote: Have you thought to look at any of the other terrans who got a fair way? Its possible they played more TvT's than BoxeR did
Yes, as stated in my first post, in the GSL3, RO64, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1
In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it!
There is a surprisingly low number of TvT's and Boxers in the vast majority of them
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
<3 u took my word from my mouth SR
I don't tyhink what they are accusing of is purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament. People are going overboard with what their accusations.
To anyone saying that GOM would be right in doing this as top players killing each other early on would be unfavorable to e-sports, and being a good business plan to increase viewership:
On December 01 2010 06:42 ohnoGG wrote: To argue that intentionally preparing the brackets of an unseeded preliminary tournament for prize money by saying that many other professional tournaments do it for entertainment value is a poor excuse for the practice. Everyone else does it, so it must be acceptable everywhere?
You have to remember that these first three GSLs are not just entertainment. They are both the professional lives for the players and teams as well as a business for the event organizers. While it may seem advantageous for organizers to guarantee star players advance and rake in more viewers and support and prizes for those players, these games are also being played for ranking points for future seasons.
The place players finish could make or break their future GSL appearances, and if any player, even in the first round, is manually set up with a favorable match instead of given a random opponent, even if it means knocking out another star, then the results are skewed by the organizers to ensure their star players persist and continue to pull in more viewers and profit at the expense of sacrificial players.
To say that such artificial arrangement is beneficial to the sport because it benefits the event organizers so they have more viewers and in turn more money and advertising to continue, really damages the image of the sport as legitimate competition, at least to me.
In the video of the OGN casters discussing the BW match-fixing scandal, it was said: One of the appeals of e-sports is that it's pure - hard work should always prevail. I think it is healthy for everyone to discuss this early so something can be done if this is indeed true.
Remember, e-sports isn't just about watching the big names duke it out in the final rounds - it's about showcasing the talents of everyone who is trying their hand at playing the game competitively, allowing everyone an equal and fair chance to make their mark on the scene.
Seeding is one thing; however, prior to GSL2, Boxer was just a big name from BW. Any special treatment towards him would be seen as rigging. Also, rigging is the act of creating favorable conditions towards a certain party, it does not necessarily have to guarantee a 100% result, but the intent can still be there. Seeding is placing proven players further in the tournament based on their results, but from that point onwards their brackets should be somewhat random. What GOM is doing in GSL2/3 cannot be classified as seeding.
On December 01 2010 00:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Seeding is meant to make things more fair. Rigging is meant to make things more unfair. Those arguing for seeding being fair and therefor rigging being fair don't really get it.
On December 01 2010 03:08 OutlaW- wrote: gratz man now mym posted this bullshit because of u look A : its not right, it was all luck based with gsl only putting him in a favorable ro64 starting position B : its not right, gsl didnt do anything C : its true, boxer did get some help in ahving easy opponents D : its true, seeing as how he was good ni s2 they put him in a lot of tvts in s3 E : its true, they only let him play tvts because they rigged every match (and ofc they knew that tvt was his good match up..) if they didnt rig it, u loko like an idiot if they did rig it, u are an idiot for trying to kill e-sports in korea just to be a bit more known how the hell did gsl know that hes good in tvts beforehand? what if him good being at tvt is because he had to play so many and practice only them? what if ur gonna create some scandal which isnt right and still hurts esports? what if ur gonna create something big : arguments for kespa, hate from more koreans, etc. etc. even if it was true i see no fucking reason to post it like an idiot, its a loss loss situations in both cases oh my god
Do you think its mere coincidence that Moon and Boxer can meet in the RO8 like Boxer and Nada did last season? And that Moon has the easiest set of maps of any Zerg in the Ro32?
Clearly the mods think this is worth investigating otherwise they would have closed this eons ago.
To end this off, this is pretty much my concern: (my post from page 5)
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
10000% agree.
Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked.
Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance.
On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote: " I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words. <3
If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything).
Here's an example.
You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).
Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.
Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being:
How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds.
If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this.
Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
Edit: To anyone discrediting this due to Boxer facing Nada in Ro8 instead of the finals, even so, the damage already has been done. The difference between Ro64 and Ro8 prize money is huge, and could have denied someone a fair chance of earning thousands of dollars - refer to my spoilered quote ^
On December 01 2010 10:17 Sanguinarius wrote: After the RO64 - alot of matches are up in the air. Sure, they can give him a TVT for ro64, but after that its pretty random.
Why does everyone say after the round of 64 it is random? The brackets are established at the round of 64 and players advance to face players parallel with them. While no one can 100% predict the winner in any match, if the brackets are established to increase the chances of a favorable race or encounter, it can be done at this stage and continue into later rounds.
It's not as if Boxer wins his first TvT and then randomly draws an opponent from the other 31 players in the tournament. He had a 50% chance of facing Polt or Joon and no one else. That's half Terran or half Zerg. A coin toss, but if Polt was the favored player in that series with a higher chance of winning, then it would be more than likely of Boxer facing Polt in round 2 instead of a Zerg.
In both season 2 and season 3, the first match ups parallel with Boxer in his group have been TvX with him always getting one of the only TvT, his safest matchup, in the entire tournament opening round. So in both the Ro32 and Ro16 there was a 50% chance of meeting a Terran based on the players immediately around him in his group. And while this did not happen in season 2, since CoreJJang, a Protoss, upset the WC3 favorite Lyn, a Terran, in the first round, Boxer instead faced the Protoss.
It should be said that this does not confirm or deny anything, as it could be said that any player in Boxer's corner of the group have the exact same chances based on race and that 50% is indeed a coin flip chance either way for better or worse.
But the fact that all players face similar odds does not ignore the fact that those odds consistently give Boxer a 50% chance of his best matchup for the first 3 rounds of the tournament, ignoring any player skill gaps between adjacent winners Polt, Jinro, and Moon and their opponents this season.
But regardless of any of this, it is absolutely not up in the air as the tournament advances, as the brackets can only advance forward on their tracks. You can't predict who will win, and surprising upsets do happen, but it is possible to guide things along gently under favorable circumstances if brackets are manually arranged at the start, which is the real issue.
But in GSL2 they didn't, at all. Pretty much every group had a similar chance of a T progressing down any route and getting lots of TvTs. It just happens that Boxer was the one who went down a TvT route because that's how the games went. Across all brackets it could have happened wherever he was based on the potential outcomes of matchups. That it did happen is just chance/coincidence, but it doesn't matter where he was, it could still have happened even if he was in an entirely different slot of a different bracket, so it wasn't fixed in any way.
Oh I certainly can't deny the total number of Terrans in both seasons of the GSL and the probability of any one of them reaching the later rounds of the tournament in any group. And I may have been a bit too excited about the numbers, considering how strange I think they are. The low number of mirrors in any matchup guarantees that any race will advance decently well.
But this is more a consequence of the bracket organizers deliberately dispersing the races and top players across the groups in a somewhat seeded arrangement in a series of tournaments that should be randomly designed to determine the best players for the upcoming 2011 seeded tournaments and not pre-arranging them to guarantee the most spectators for these and future tournaments.
Even so much as giving Boxer a TvT, or any player any advantage, in just the opening round of a preliminary tournament, ignoring any chances in future rounds, to determine where they rank in upcoming tournaments, simply for the benefit of boosting that player's chances at acquiring guaranteed entrance into the seeded tournaments for greater presentation value, is dishonest in what should be a random environment.
Some people will say this is fair and right. That it's great for legendary players to be given these slight advantages because it will raise viewership, give fans lots of games to watch, and give them a spot in future tournaments.
That in a fair open tournament where no players are given free entrance, previous winners are split up so they don't have to battle on opening day or in unfavorable matchups, and instead face off against a random rookie who has little to no chance of winning, just for the sake of entertainment.
Others will see this as an unfair manipulation of the brackets in an important tournament with incredibly large prize money at stake, as well as ranking points for future tournaments for players from all around the globe.
And such that knowingly arranging that any player in an open tournament, no matter how many tournaments they've won or fans they have, even one pushover first round opponent to almost entirely promise they advance at least one round is tantamount to fixing the match so that player cannot possibly lose.
In such a series of determining tournaments setting the stage for the headliners of next year, transparency is an absolute must and that the dice should roll however they may, without a sleight of hand to turn them over in any player's favor.
On December 01 2010 12:23 ohnoGG wrote: But this is more a consequence of the bracket organizers deliberately dispersing the races and top players across the groups in a somewhat seeded arrangement in a series of tournaments that should be randomly designed to determine the best players for the upcoming 2011 seeded tournaments and not pre-arranging them to guarantee the most spectators for these and future tournaments.
I'm not all that positive it does guarantee the most spectators. Nada vs Boxer would have been epic regardless of when it occurred. That said, of course you're going to psuedo seed these GSL's. Their goal is to get the best players into Code S for next year. Putting Boxer and Nada together in Ro64 doesn't do that, when it's obvious the two are better than a lot of other players we've seen.
Plus, it's a partial crapshoot anyway. The best players *will* win regardless, look at Leenok as proof of this. Everyone wants to throw out previous experience, or ladder ranking or what have you, but in some ways they do (and should) matter. If anything is unfair, it's a totally random seeded and placed tourney.
On December 01 2010 12:23 ohnoGG wrote: But this is more a consequence of the bracket organizers deliberately dispersing the races and top players across the groups in a somewhat seeded arrangement in a series of tournaments that should be randomly designed to determine the best players for the upcoming 2011 seeded tournaments and not pre-arranging them to guarantee the most spectators for these and future tournaments.
I'm not all that positive it does guarantee the most spectators. Nada vs Boxer would have been epic regardless of when it occurred. That said, of course you're going to psuedo seed these GSL's. Their goal is to get the best players into Code S for next year. Putting Boxer and Nada together in Ro64 doesn't do that, when it's obvious the two are better than a lot of other players we've seen.
Plus, it's a partial crapshoot anyway. The best players *will* win regardless, look at Leenok as proof of this. Everyone wants to throw out previous experience, or ladder ranking or what have you, but in some ways they do (and should) matter. If anything is unfair, it's a totally random seeded and placed tourney.
Seeding would be to place Boxer directly into Ro64. Rigging is setting him up to play a certain match up past Ro64 to try to keep him in the tournament for as long as possible, it does not have to mean setting him up to win the entire thing.
Also I don't get how people fail to see this.
Ro32
Unknown Player A vs Unknown Player B -> Unknown Player A has a pretty good chance of getting $1700 from $400 + seeding points
Unknown Player A vs Boxer -> Unknown Player A's chances just got drastically decreased to get $1700 from $400 + seeding points
I don't think it's right that Unknown Player A gets subjected to this kind of thing if it's done on purpose, as you can see the difference is worth more than $1000.
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool.
<3 u took my word from my mouth SR
I wont say i support it, nor will I say I don't like the idea, but calling it rigged is too far, imo thats suggesting players are being payed to throw matches which is not the case at all. after all a tournament is run on the basis that the better players will advance, and if they don't its only because they lost to someone who is an even better player (or occasionally just got lucky), the idea that they would set boxer up for success holds many rewards like ~it will engage the community better ~help boost boxer as an icon for SC2 ~boxer's status as an icon will help the community grow.
all while holding true to the fact that to actually win he needs to have the chops to beat his opponents in Ro4 and/or grand finals, and if he can do it he deserves the title, because Ro4 and grand finals have the strong tendency to be the REAL challenges in tournament play.
so in summation: if indeed he is given an easy path to Ro8-Ro4 on purpose, hes still not likely to win unless he has the skill to prove he can win the GF and Ro4-8 matches, and if thats the case its very likely he has the skill to play through a harder path. and if he loses theres a decently small chance that he might have taken out someone that could have otherwise gone farther or won it all even, but when we reach this level of speculation, i must say that its a calculated risk that Gom thought was worth taking (if indeed they do rig brackets), and i frankly don't blame them, it may keep a few individuals down for the time being, but it furthers the cause of the community as a whole.
On December 01 2010 12:23 ohnoGG wrote: But this is more a consequence of the bracket organizers deliberately dispersing the races and top players across the groups in a somewhat seeded arrangement in a series of tournaments that should be randomly designed to determine the best players for the upcoming 2011 seeded tournaments and not pre-arranging them to guarantee the most spectators for these and future tournaments.
I'm not all that positive it does guarantee the most spectators. Nada vs Boxer would have been epic regardless of when it occurred. That said, of course you're going to psuedo seed these GSL's. Their goal is to get the best players into Code S for next year. Putting Boxer and Nada together in Ro64 doesn't do that, when it's obvious the two are better than a lot of other players we've seen.
Plus, it's a partial crapshoot anyway. The best players *will* win regardless, look at Leenok as proof of this. Everyone wants to throw out previous experience, or ladder ranking or what have you, but in some ways they do (and should) matter. If anything is unfair, it's a totally random seeded and placed tourney.
Seeding would be to place Boxer directly into Ro64. Rigging is setting him up to play a certain match up past Ro64 to try to keep him in the tournament for as long as possible, it does not have to mean setting him up to win the entire thing.
Also I don't get how people fail to see this.
Ro32
Unknown Player A vs Unknown Player B -> Unknown Player A has a pretty good chance of getting $1700 from $400 + seeding points
Unknown Player A vs Boxer -> Unknown Player A's chances just got drastically decreased to get $1700 from $400 + seeding points
I don't think it's right that Unknown Player A gets subjected to this kind of thing if it's done on purpose, as you can see the difference is worth more than $1000.
i just saw this after i posted my last comment, note i did mean to keep the comment objective, idk how well i did it, anyway if theres one thing i ask you notice is my comment that goes something along the lines of, " although it keeps one or a few players down [for the time being], it furthers the goals of the community as a whole, it theoretically helps to grow the community, and pump up fans to see their favorite players go farther etc. , i might also add on a personal note that this should not be a permanent ploy, only until SC2 can establish a firm community, until then those put in boxers path can do nothing but try to beat him.
It could very well be possible, from a business standpoint it's feasible. They want to make SC2 as big as it's older Brother in Korea, what can you do? Make Boxer go deep in every single one, his charisma and appeal in Korea is literally unmatched. If this were to be the case, I would hope it stops after GSL3 or once the "market" stabilizes strictly for fairness sake.
Either way.... if they set up a Boxer Vs Moon fight I would pay BIGmoney to go see it. Can the LEGEND of War3 himself compete with the Gods of Starcraft?(The Pinnacle of competitive gaming!) The Fifth race finds himself lost and in the Emperor's territory. Kalimdor is far, far away, whispers of fighting demons and Elune are but a distant memory.
Guy's don't forget W3 itself as a competitive e-sport was huge(disregarding Korean scene) you can argue it is the largest E-Sport outside of BW in Korea. Anyway as you can see by influencing little thing's like this, is feasible in my eyes. I can say that a Boxer Vs Moon has the possibility of bringing in WAY more viewers than the Boxer vs Nada series. Moon has a worldwide support of gamers, I feel moreso than Broodwar. I really really really want Jinro to lose even though he's one of the last foreigners, but if anybody were to take my Moon out, I'd be more than able to live with the fact that it was a Westerner himself toppling the 5th race. Man I'm so excited CHRIST!
if they are rigging this, why wouldn't they have set it up for a nada vs boxer final last season?
brackets are set, so its stupid to think otherwise. your just making up useless trivial matters imo
im sure you think that steppes being in every zerg game is rigged too... random is random, its not like is one in a million possibilites. its one in nine....
I highly doubt they rig it so that a player has an easier time through the brackets. They just rig it so the big name players don't play each other immediately in the round of 64.
On November 30 2010 13:59 Fenneth wrote: It's human nature to find patterns and coincidences in random data. I'd suggest holding back a little on the accusations of wide-scale conspiracy based on a few scraps of flimsy data.
i think this is the real answer to this whole post actually.
On December 01 2010 11:10 Wetty wrote: Have you thought to look at any of the other terrans who got a fair way? Its possible they played more TvT's than BoxeR did
Yes, as stated in my first post, in the GSL3, RO64, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1
In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it!
There is a surprisingly low number of TvT's and Boxers in the vast majority of them
The reason why this isn't very convincing data is that past the Ro64, Gom can't control the matchups. They gave Boxer a TvT in the Ro64, yes; but the winner of that TvT had to play the winner from a TvZ - if the Z won, then Boxer would have played a zerg. And it goes on like that every round. You can't say that in GSL2 Ro8, Boxer "got" the only TvT. He didn't "get" it from anyone, that's just how the brackets developed. The opposite side of Boxer's bracket had 3 terrans, 3 protoss, and 2 zergs - Boxer COULD have played any of them, it just so happened that Nada advanced to the Ro8, and so did Boxer.
Even if gom sets up boxers with TVT matches on purpose he was not facing any terran scrubs I mean he was going against Nada and Loner... That and TvT is a ridiculously hard mu to master and seeing how boxer is so good at it if i dare say one of the best TvT. Boxer just needs more help on his other mu because he has no one to rely on for help.
Author: [GOM]Junkka| Views: 1,001| Posted Dec. 01, 2010| IP: 211.234.***.***| Comments : 37 I am getting tired of being accused that we rig the maps. Here are some facts.
1) I know nobody will believe me but maps are picked randomly. I spent 20 minutes building this stupid box in which we put papers with map names and draw them out. We take turns to draw the papers and also make sure it is properly mixed after drawing. It is very dull process but we do not complain. Please do not mention math because chance of winning lottery is about same chance as getting struck by lightening few times yet in reality people still win lotteries.
2) Why not use custom maps? Because GSL is open tournament and people without team can only practice on ladder. Of course it is possible to distribute custom maps through homepage but sadly not all SC2 players watch GSL. I do not think Blizzard will approve it anyway.
3) Why did we get rid of veto system? I remember viewers including many of you here complaining it was boring to see matches played on same maps over and over again. Also in the final it is best out of 7 and best of 5 in ro8&4 so players will eventually have to get confident on maps they do not like.
It's not that different from standard seeding of matches, so that the best players are more likely advance far. if they're seeding by reputation (being that they have little else to go on) that doesn't really bother me - they'll have ACTUAL seeding rank come next year's tournaments.
boxer doing well is good for the game and esports, as long as players are not being paid to lose to him i dont see i problem with it, sure it my not be the most ethical thing but if it helps sc2 get exposure in its infancy then im all for it
[QUOTE]On December 01 2010 15:29 MusiK wrote: [img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3170/3096163722_1b7877e424_z.jpg?zz=1[/img]
That's some seriously awesome photoshop skills
On topic, I find it hard to believe that GOM would fix the maps to favor a player... And about the map veto system, when it's on we have the same maps over and over, and when it's off we see crappy maps. And by crappy I mean maps that favors a race too much (JB for P, SS for Z etc...).
But the GSL is supposed to get big in 2011 (I find it big already ^^) so maybe the map pool will be overhauled by Blizzard themselves after season 3 wraps up... who knows
I'll go with not rigged, here is why I think that: - In season 2 after he qualified I don't think there is really a legitimate way to tell that we was good at Terran vs. Terran other than him saying it in an interview. I don't think his match history is a clear indicator at all. - Many other players have gotten ridiculously easy wins in the GSL round of 64/32, regardless of how known they were. - He had to qualify just like everyone else, no special treatment there. - If you put a bunch of good/popular players in a bracket, eventually some will end up playing each other. Boxer vs. Nada was one of those, and if Boxer faces Moon it will be the same. Sure they wouldn't put this in the very first round, but I would hardly consider that rigging. - GSL has been fairly random so far, any rigging would be random as well. We have seen unknowns beat knowns, we have seen people deemed among the best fail to even qualify, and we have seen a player who only knew how to make Zerlings/Roaches and knew nothing of creep tumors in season 1 dominate just a month later. There is no clear way to rig this thing. - Boxer is legit. He beat Loner (who showed he was a good player placing second at Blizzcon) and NaDa. Boxer and only Boxer had to win these games, and he did.
Give the legend some credit for practicing, having passion, and wanting to win. It is a little bit disheartening to see a lot of people in here discredit one of the very best and a man who is someone all of us look up to.
Everybody likes to see Boxer play but people watch the GSL to see the best players in the world, whether boxer is in it or not. GSL is a professional setup and would not 'fix matches'. It's a theory but there is a reason why conspiracy theories are laughed at by the mainstream because they are almost never based on anything remotely substantial, afraid to say this one is no different.
On December 01 2010 05:34 MementoMori wrote: There we go! Somebody who actually did the effort and has some numbers to back him up. Nice job Zocat. The numbers are actually kind of interesting outside of this discussion as well.
Thanks And since I am bored (and sick QQ):
I assigned a strength value to each player. Not qualified: 0 RO64 appearance: 1 RO32 appearance: 2 RO16 appearance: 4 RO08 appearance: 8 RO04 appearance: 16 I believe anyone in Top4 could take the tournament - therefore I dont think I should give finalists / winner more strength (you could discuss this decision)
So someone like Rainbow would have for GSL3: GSL1 RO02 + GSL2 RO04 = 16 + 16 = 32 Boxer would have: GSL 1 NQ + GSL2 RO04 = 0 + 16 = 16
Playertable (layout broken and I'm not going to fix it^^) + Show Spoiler +
Everyone else has 0 strength. (Remark: I dont know if cOre is the same person as CoreJJang - I treated them as the same person)
This leads to the following bracket strengths: For GSL2: Bracket A: 42 Bracket B: 46 Bracket C: 8 Bracket D: 18
For GSL3: using only GSL2 strength: Bracket A: 33 Bracket B: 28 Bracket C: 34 Bracket D: 30
using total strength: Bracket A: 47 Bracket B: 64 Bracket C: 46 Bracket D: 38
Take those numbers for what you want Boxer bracket was C in GSL 2 and is D in GSL3. Bracket D also looks interesting in GSL2. Maybe because of IdrA (only fan favourite I can see there)?
Also keep in mind some players who placed very high in GSL1 (sSKS, TOP, LiveForever) didnt play in GSL2. If you place LiveForever & TOP in C and sSKS in D it looks pretty even suddenly. Only 3 16point amd 3 8point persons were in GSL2. So we're missing ~24points for 2 slots.
Did people not see this post? I think a lot of this post gives some food for thought, especially the GSL2 relative strengths per bracket.
It's not just about the matchup, it's more about the names around the bracket. Just look at the GSL2 Bracket C and look how many big names there are, now look how many big names are in the other brackets. Is it a coincidence that most of the unknown players except Boxer and Nada were in bracket C? Obviously it's impossible to 100% rig an outcome (unless you're match fixing), but there are ways to encourage an outcome, and this is one of them. Food for thought.
Sorry but your post is blatant bullshit. You should be banned for even considering they RIG the GSL for viewers when you have HUGE UPSETS in the GSL...
On November 30 2010 13:34 Whole wrote: since GSL is new, i don't mind if they use these little cheats to support ESPORTS, but once the scene stabilizes, I hope they stop this if they are doing it on purpose.
On November 30 2010 14:18 DentThat wrote: Your findings don't really correlate here Grebliv...
Cmon now, 8 out of 10 (including the upcoming Ro32) is TvT for Boxer.
Does 80% TvT, 10% TvP, 10% TvZ over 2 seasons not seem suspicious?
Here's the proper approach setup before we even start looking at your chosen data points: + Show Spoiler +
Our goal is to find statistical evidence suggesting that GOM is trying to help Boxer thru to at least Ro8. (Something I agree with you that they are doing btw, but your arguments are weak. You're arguing it like people try to argue that a certain religion is true. They might be right but their logic sucks.)
Using the scientific method, we must use the converse of this to have something to start with:
Hypothesis: GOM is not trying to help Boxer through. If we can find ANY evidence to the contrary, then the entire analysis will be support that GOM is trying to help Boxer thru the tourney.
For a sample to be statistically relevant and admissible for evidentiary support, these are minimum requirements: Size of 40 Random
Let's examine:
Size of 40 25% there
Random The later stages are not random, and while can be influenced slightly, are not determined by GOM. So we can eliminate 8 of your 10 series.
On December 01 2010 11:10 Wetty wrote: Have you thought to look at any of the other terrans who got a fair way? Its possible they played more TvT's than BoxeR did
Yes, as stated in my first post, in the GSL3, RO64, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1
In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it!
There is a surprisingly low number of TvT's and Boxers in the vast majority of them
Just because there were a low number of TvTs doesn't mean anything. I already made a post where I said how many matches could have been TvTs, hint: it's almost every single match beyond the RO32. Just because Boxer did get TvTs just means that in his part of his bracket, lots of Terrans were winning. The only way you can rig it so Boxer gets lots of TvTs while they don't appear elsewhere, the ONLY WAY, is to rig the games by paying off players to lose and let Terrans through.
9 of 16 RO32 matches could have been TvT. Boxers was NOT 7 of 8 RO16 matches could have been TvT, Boxers was. 4 of 4 RO8 matches could have been TvT 2 of 2 RO4 matches And the final could have been TvT.
The fact is that ANY Terran in ANY bracket could have got almost all TvTs, so no matter where Boxer was, he could have got a lot of TvTs in GSL2. The fact that he therefore did is either due to chance through his bracket results going that way, or it's because GOM didn't rig the brackets, the rigged the MATCHES.
You aren't accusing GOM of favouring/protecting Boxer by setting up the brackets/groups so that he gets a lot of TvTs, you are accusing them of rigging matches so it occurs.
I repeat, WHEREVER HE WAS in the RO64 in GSL2, he could have had the same run of TvTs to the final. The ONLY part that is possibly "protection" is having a TvT in RO64. EVERYTHING ELSE is due to the way the results went and could have happened to ANY TERRAN.
I repeat, the ONLY WAY to ensure Boxer got lots of TvTs is to fix the matches in his bracket. Otherwise it's due to chance, and no matter where Boxer was, he could have got a whole line of TvTs, potentially, if previous results went the right way.
Can we close the thread now? Sure, Boxer was always the last match, and perhaps he was given an easy Ro64, but there are so many variables in the brackets that you can't argue that everything is fixed.
Should we question every player's bracket and then come to the conclusion that it is all rigged? No, that isn't a reasonable conclusion.
You're absolutely right that just because he played worse than polt doesn't mean it wasn't rigged but at the same time, most of what was discussed in this thread doesn't have any merit. And it certainly wasn't rigged.
You can find conspiracies in anything, whether they are true or not. You'll refuse to believe the answer given to you, because that's the nature of a conspiracy.
You're absolutely right that just because he played worse than polt doesn't mean it wasn't rigged but at the same time, most of what was discussed in this thread doesn't have any merit. And it certainly wasn't rigged.
You can find conspiracies in anything, whether they are true or not. You'll refuse to believe the answer given to you, because that's the nature of a conspiracy.
EDIT - Spoiler.
what are you going on about? no one thinks the polt v boxer game was rigged its the entirety of his matchups and where he was seeded thats suspicious
On December 01 2010 08:09 cablesc wrote: The idea that Gomtv is rigging brackets to help boxer is such an insult to the players in the tournament. In GSL 2 Loner won 2-1 vs a zerg and a protoss in order to face boxer, and nada had to beat leenock (also 2-1), who's turning out to be one of the best zergs in sc2. People are devaluing their victories by saying that it's a "rigged bracket", and that's just shameful.
And look at the upcoming match-up Jinro vs Moon. If Jinro wins, then it's rigged for TvT. If Moon wins, then it's rigged for a star matchup. Gom can't win. No matter what happens, there will be people complaining and looking for conspiracies.
no i didnt. your post touched on the fact that the match wasn't rigged and that nothing in this thread had any merit and then you went on some tangent about conspiracies.
you stated your opinion on an issue that wasn't being discussed. if you meant something else then you phrased it badly
On December 01 2010 22:34 mOnion wrote: no i didnt. your post touched on the fact that the match wasn't rigged and that nothing in this thread had any merit and then you went on some tangent about conspiracies.
you stated your opinion on an issue that wasn't being discussed. if you meant something else then you phrased it badly
Pseudo-intellectual much? Calm down.
I think I am aware of what I said in my own post, thanks. Just because you can't understand basic English doesn't mean you are correct.
I'll explain it in baby-terms for you, so you can understand.
On December 01 2010 22:20 mOnion wrote:
I think you're ignorantly disregarding a lot of the good arguments in this thread
just because he played badly doesn't mean the rest of what was discussed here doesn't have merit
This is what I quoted from you, and is what I am writing a response to.
I then go on to say that I agree that what you said about him playing badly doesn't mean that the conspiracies you think exist, don't exist, it just means he played badly - even if he was spoon fed tvt's etc. I also talk about how ridiculous 99% of this thread is and the fact is is quite clearly not rigged in any way.
Then I explain to you why you are getting so defensive when shown facts that disprove your conspiracy theory for example the post made by junkka.
This is funny thread now cuz if boxer best match up Tvt he should have won his GSL RO32 match today then but he lost lol im still a fan dont get me wrong just funny
EPT
. Honestly, I don't think it matters at all. The fact that he is strong in TvT doesn't mean that his opponents are weak in TvT. In fact, his opponents have made into RO32 so skill-wise they have been tested. 
. dont blame GOMTV , blame matchup imo
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