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On November 30 2010 23:25 ItsMeDomLee wrote:
Every single tournament in the world is done like this. It would be stupid not to. If you're a newcomer, expect to be treated as such. The rest of the players have earned their dues. You don't think Boxer making it to the finals is better for EVERYONE? Bad ratings = bad paydays for everyone.
Moreover, you're making an ass out of everyone with these assumptions.
did you just...argue that the tournament IS rigged and then call the OP an ass for assuming that the tournament is rigged?
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if GOMTV is fixing brackets... is the next step fixing the games?
The next question becomes... are they putting Boxer on Steppes of War versus Zerg to make sure he wins any Zerg matches he must encounter during qualifying or the GSL itself.
and if they are sliding down this slippery slope what does Activision-Blizzard think.
to Acti-Blizz eSports is meaningless in terms of profit and is seen as merely a possible "future ancillary revenue stream".
GOMTV risks Activision-Blizzard ending their contract.
If GOMTV fixes games i think Activision-Blizzard will pull the plug on their sponsorship and the entire organization will become less than a shadow of its former self. The profit upside to match fixing at this point is negligable relative to what Acti-Blizz considers a substantial amount of money.
Activision-Blizzard will engage in unethical behaviour when there are tens of millions of dollars on the line. They won't screw around when virtually no money is at stake.
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On November 30 2010 22:37 machination wrote:
An Asian business doing shady things to increase profit potential? BLASPHEMY!
Yes, lets point out that its an Asian business because those Asians are so shifty and untrustworthy compared to us 'Merricans and White folks in general! (please nobody mention western companies like Enron or WorldCom)
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so, you say its "a little peculiar" why do you title the thread as a fact ("GomTV protecting Boxer")?
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I've been saying GomTV has rigged BoxeR match all along and everyone else's been saying ... nurghh, dont' say things like that on teamliquid....
Pathetic.
You people need to know when conspiracy theory is true.
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i don't even know why this is matter. there's no seed now so GOM must divide gosu players separately because no one want to see gosu players eliminated in r64 or something. you wanna see Nestea vs Fruitdealer in r64? Idra vs Ret in r64? GOM protecting foreigners early match too.
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Long:
Nothing special to be honest. They separate teams from the same "associations" in the UEFA champion's league seedings. Also, GOM may be using some seedings, who knows? Boxer's side of the bracket the most terrans is somewhat counterproductive. Yes, he will get far, but that also means that terrans are eliminating each other, meaning the chances of meeting a non-terran the further he gets and thus getting eliminated increased with each round (obviously provided that the brackets follow a fixed, predetermined plan).
Short:
Don't care. Boxer is entertaining and so are other players who are favoured by this.
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On November 30 2010 23:34 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 23:25 ItsMeDomLee wrote:
Every single tournament in the world is done like this. It would be stupid not to. If you're a newcomer, expect to be treated as such. The rest of the players have earned their dues. You don't think Boxer making it to the finals is better for EVERYONE? Bad ratings = bad paydays for everyone.
Moreover, you're making an ass out of everyone with these assumptions. did you just...argue that the tournament IS rigged and then call the OP an ass for assuming that the tournament is rigged?
That's how you run brackets. It's the standard and best way of running a tournament. It is no coincidence that Jaedong and Flash never clashed until late in their respective tournaments. It's standard practice: Put the best players into seeds farthest away from one another. It's difficult on Newcomers, but if brackets were generated completely at random, how would you feel about Fruitdealer and Nestea playing one another in the ro64 first game and one of them being eliminated so early?
I dont quite subscribe that GOMTV is feeding Boxer terran players, but GOM is protecting all the big name players for the first couple rounds, because that's how it should be. You want all the best players in the semi-finals/finals and late in the tournament. It's not good to have all the best players eliminating each other early on in the tournament, and some no name making it deep into the finals because he's been playing a whole bunch of other no names, then gets crushed in the finals. That's not fun to watch, and it's not fair to any of the players, either.
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I like how peeps are quick to point out Boxer's opponents in his bracket but fail to realize that without seedings, GOMTV is trying to split up all the best players from playing each other early. They also have prevented all the foreign players from playing each other.
And that's why GOMTV has these 3 Open GSL tournaments to DETERMINE seedings so that they don't have to do this.
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On November 30 2010 16:31 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote:
well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool. 10000% agree. Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked. Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance. From a GSL thread, Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote:
" I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words.
<3 If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything). Here's an example. You're  TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64). Grats, you're paired up against  Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting. Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being: TurN vs BisuGame 1: Central Plains Game 2: Empire of the Sun Game 3: Central Plains (Really farfetched, but meh trying to illustrate a point I guess) Central Plains is a heavily Protoss favored map. 25ish PvPs so far.How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds. If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this. Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing
By the way, for your interest, who defend rigging, FoxeR vs ST_Monster happened JUST LIKE the particular example about Bisu and TurN in the quoted text.
ST_Monster is a player who is able to get to the ro16. Let's see who he faces at ro32: FoxeR. FoxeR, who was able to eliminate good zerg players like Kyrix and FruitDealer in the previous GSL, faces a zerg player who participates for the first time at the round of 32. Still, ST_Monster still can win, but NO!!! Why should GOM allow a rookie to win over a past finalist and lose fans? So, let's arrange the map pool accordingly.
Set 1: Jungle Basin
Set 2: Steppes of War
Set 3: Lost Temple
I don't have anything more to say, because there is nothing to say after the map pool. Sure, they can't rig brackets that hard and get FoxeR to play ST_Monster, but WTF IS THE MAP POOL FFS !!! Seriously, how would you feel? HOW THE FUCK ... would you feel if you played against a "superstar", that you're more than capable of beating, on these maps? FoxeR himself couldn't pick a better map pool for his TvZ match at GSL ro32. Think about it, all you people who think that this is a good thing.
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Seeding is meant to make things more fair. Rigging is meant to make things more unfair. Those arguing for seeding being fair and therefor rigging being fair don't really get it.
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On November 30 2010 13:36 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Eh their conspiracy failed to even get Nada into the Ro64 so I'm not too worried about it.
Haha true
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On December 01 2010 00:13 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 16:31 IntoTheEmo wrote:On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote:
well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool. 10000% agree. Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked. Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance. From a GSL thread, On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote:
" I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words.
<3 If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything). Here's an example. You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64). Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting. Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being: TurN vs BisuGame 1: Central Plains Game 2: Empire of the Sun Game 3: Central Plains (Really farfetched, but meh trying to illustrate a point I guess) Central Plains is a heavily Protoss favored map. 25ish PvPs so far.How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds. If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this. Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing By the way, for your interest, who defend rigging, FoxeR vs ST_Monster happened JUST LIKE the particular example about Bisu and TurN in the quoted text. ST_Monster is a player who is able to get to the ro16. Let's see who he faces at ro32: FoxeR. FoxeR, who was able to eliminate good zerg players like Kyrix and FruitDealer in the previous GSL, faces a zerg player who participates for the first time at the round of 32. Still, ST_Monster still can win, but NO!!! Why should GOM allow a rookie to win over a past finalist and lose fans? So, let's arrange the map pool accordingly. Set 1: Jungle Basin Set 2: Steppes of War Set 3: Lost Temple I don't have anything more to say, because there is nothing to say after the map pool. Sure, they can't rig brackets that hard and get FoxeR to play ST_Monster, but WTF IS THE MAP POOL FFS !!! Seriously, how would you feel? HOW THE FUCK ... would you feel if you played against a "superstar", that you're more than capable of beating, on these maps? FoxeR himself couldn't pick a better map pool for his TvZ match at GSL ro32. Think about it, all you people who think that this is a good thing.
In his defense, he did win the game on Steppes of War.
I do agree that the map pool was terrible, but I just wanted to point that out.
Honestly, I think the brackets are rigged in the Round of 64 to pair no-names vs stars. However, lots of tournaments do it and it really shouldn't surprise anyone.
I mean would you want to see Jinro vs Haypro, Boxer vs Tester, Nada vs Moon, and Ret vs IdrA in the round of 64?!
I sure as hell wouldn't.
The accusation that the map pools are being rigged though... that is a big deal.
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On December 01 2010 00:13 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 16:31 IntoTheEmo wrote:On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote:
well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool. 10000% agree. Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked. Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance. From a GSL thread, On November 13 2010 22:22 Kluwn wrote:
" I'm gonna be talking my own things now as there isn't anything important to translate.
First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports. *someone in the backgroud :"wow" * *Junkka laughs* .I actually prepared this"
Sorry if I butchered any words.
<3 If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything). Here's an example. You're TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64). Grats, you're paired up against Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting. Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being: TurN vs BisuGame 1: Central Plains Game 2: Empire of the Sun Game 3: Central Plains (Really farfetched, but meh trying to illustrate a point I guess) Central Plains is a heavily Protoss favored map. 25ish PvPs so far.How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds. If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this. Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing By the way, for your interest, who defend rigging, FoxeR vs ST_Monster happened JUST LIKE the particular example about Bisu and TurN in the quoted text. ST_Monster is a player who is able to get to the ro16. Let's see who he faces at ro32: FoxeR. FoxeR, who was able to eliminate good zerg players like Kyrix and FruitDealer in the previous GSL, faces a zerg player who participates for the first time at the round of 32. Still, ST_Monster still can win, but NO!!! Why should GOM allow a rookie to win over a past finalist and lose fans? So, let's arrange the map pool accordingly. Set 1: Jungle Basin Set 2: Steppes of War Set 3: Lost Temple I don't have anything more to say, because there is nothing to say after the map pool. Sure, they can't rig brackets that hard and get FoxeR to play ST_Monster, but WTF IS THE MAP POOL FFS !!! Seriously, how would you feel? HOW THE FUCK ... would you feel if you played against a "superstar", that you're more than capable of beating, on these maps? FoxeR himself couldn't pick a better map pool for his TvZ match at GSL ro32. Think about it, all you people who think that this is a good thing.
Yea I must say it is rather disgusting what they are doing. It seems like the removal of veto wasn't because of players playing on the same maps. It was so they could attempt to rig certain matches. I first thought this wasn't the case but there's too many coincidences that really start to change ones mind
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okay first of all, if shit like this is happening then it better be because of something like no seeding therefore forced matching or i immediately stop being a fan of korean esports as a whole. i just can't take something like this seriously. there is literally no competitive spirit in making someone fight cans for 20 matches, then verse 5 good people and you're like 2-3 against them, but your record is 22-3 and you regularly get deep into brackets. i HATE boxing for this with so much passion, it's ruined the sport and i refuse to participate in being a viewer of another sport that wants to do something like this because at that point it's as competitive as pro wrestling.
with that said, i refuse to believe this is happening and it's very easy to write off boxer getting lots of terrans simply because there's lots of terrans. there's still not many GSLs so it could very well just be luck of the draw at this point, no reason to overreact... yet
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On December 01 2010 00:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Seeding is meant to make things more fair. Rigging is meant to make things more unfair. Those arguing for seeding being fair and therefor rigging being fair don't really get it.
While I would agree that they are "seeding" things to try and balance the brackets, if we accept that Boxer is getting an easy draw in order to make it further into the tournament (which obviously is a good thing for esports in korea) then that certainly is unfair, and hence rigged, for whoever he has to hit as well as other players who are forced to hit tougher opponents who they might not have hit otherwise.
This ofc assumes they purposely gave him TvTs so he would advance, which I have no doubt they did.
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I guess people here don't believe in the phrase innocent until proven guilty. The title of this thread should really be made into a question because a declarative statement is highly misleading. There is no evidence to support the claim and it's not like Boxer's TvT is unstoppable either. Has anyone ever thought that Boxer might actually be good, or at least good enough, at SC2, a game far easier than BW?
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On November 30 2010 14:10 travis wrote:
and a lot of you don't think the government had anything to do with 9/11
im amazed, lol
so u think they have?
i think it doesnot matter that much though. boxer is in top 20 (in top 10) of the korean ladder, so he has to be good anyways.
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Because they have no seeding, they have to establish fixed brackets to make sure the notable players are spread out from each other.
No, it's not fair, but it is MUCH better than the alternative, imo.
The map pool vetoes need to come back though for GSL 1 in 2011.
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EPT
