EPTMy suggestion if you people are so into going mech just try it, but don't go crying to Blizzard when it doesn't work. Bio is already an auto win vs protoss of an equal level as you.
Weak Thor AA crippling TvP creativity - Page 6
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
My suggestion if you people are so into going mech just try it, but don't go crying to Blizzard when it doesn't work. Bio is already an auto win vs protoss of an equal level as you. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Msrobinson
United States138 Posts
And on that aspect, There is no reason to change a unit to make it strong against everything. To beat carriers, you deny teching through aggression, and if that doesn't work, you make vikings. Vikings rape both colossus and carriers, and will leave you with enough money to spend on 6 barracks marines and marauders, which would rape both carriers and colossus. Saying Thors are bad against carriers isn't imbalanced, it is just a poor decision. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
That means that of the Toss tech trees, Thors are outstanding against 1 (gateway), solid against 1 (robo), and situationally useful against 1 (stargate). So you're proposal is to make them great against all the other stargate units too? What the hell. That's a terrible idea. "Let's give Terran a unit which is great against everything a Toss can build and has no counters". | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On November 18 2010 20:22 TibblesEvilCat wrote: i'm confused doens/t thor beat all of protoss ground units for cost ? thors are really good vs ground, but terran already has tanks/marauders for that, so unless they need AA theres no point building a thor thor needs a vs ground nerf if its getting an AA buff though | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
How many of you all even read the thread before posting? On November 18 2010 22:04 DaemonX wrote: Um, Wtf? Ever heard of vikings? T has the best AA in the game, with their air-siege-tank aka the Viking. Why not make Thors kill armored and remove broodlords from the game! Good idea. TL needs an auto-lock policy about any thread in this forum with unit-imba qq thread title. Seriously dude? Seriously? At least try to read whats going on in the thread. If anyone deserves a warning, it's for a post like this. I'm going to try an appeal to reason here. Nadagast isn't saying that anything is imbalanced. He's not saying he wants the Thor to counter armored air. He's saying that if you want to see something other than bio in TvP (which everyone on both sides of the match up complain about) you could accomplish that by changing an obvious inefficiency. Thors auto-target armored air above other units. They do negligible damage to said targets. Armored air units to quite well against mech. This means that no matter what the circumstance, if there is an armored air unit on the field it makes Thors almost useless as a damage dealer (to ground or air), contributing to making mech late game pretty much a no go. | ||
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Tripal
Finland92 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On November 19 2010 01:47 Tripal wrote: Well if it's such a problem that terran doesn't have any ground to armored air, then why aren't we making a huge deal about protoss not having anything good ground to light air. It's not a huge deal at all. It is a slightly bigger, but still small deal that Thors almost can't be used if there is armored air on the field (not for the balance of the match up, but for the creativity of it). If Thors could be used (not as a counter, but just as something other then negligible damage) then you could see the match up really open late game with mech plays. It would also probably allow you to nerf Terran early game, if you really wanted to. Right now we have this odd balancing act in the match up where Terran and bio is very strong early, and Protoss is very strong against bio late. It results in most Terran wins ending up in the first 10 minutes or so, and most the Protoss wins ending up after 10 minutes or so. It roughly ends up being even, but is that really where we want the match up to end up at? | ||
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Penatronic
150 Posts
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
I can understand prioritizing air in general, over ground. But it has to be one or the other you can't start setting priorities based on armor type. Either sacrifice dps against mutas or against heavy air, your choice. | ||
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Corvette
United States433 Posts
On November 18 2010 19:33 Nadagast wrote: That's less DPS than a stimmed Marine. Can you tell me something that has more? | ||
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Tripal
Finland92 Posts
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On November 18 2010 20:33 Nadagast wrote: I think people are misunderstanding the situation I'm referring to. You haven't seen very many high level long TvPs because almost everyone goes bio and either loses or wins before P gets on 3+ bases. I'm talking about late game 4+ bases for each, where you both have pretty much the full tech tree. Marines are not a good unit at this point because he can have so many Templar and Storm decimates your Marines. You can EMP (and it works great if you hit all of his HTs and force a battle right after) but it is extremely risky to have significant supply stuck into marines lategame since with one spell you can lose 20+ food instantly. And the strategies I'm talking about aren't about pure mech. But giving the Factory a response to armored air that is somewhat effective will open up options for Terran in TvP, IMO. Not pure mech options, it's too immobile. But bio+mech will become much more viable, and a mix of bio/mech/air will become much more viable. First of all - Blizzard has already stated Terran is weak late game TvP but they feel they are too strong early game. They are looking to fix that. You're looking for a fix to something that is not broken. If you want to be able to consistently win games by building units from only a single tech structure then you aren't looking at a balanced game. The fact that you need units from various different buildings and tech paths is indicative of the game being more balanced then imbalanced (though not perfectly so). I stopped reading the thread after this post in order to respond to it so I apologize if this has already been posted but here is a game describing your situation (proving your point to an extent, that mech is too weak to air) + Show Spoiler + However, this does not mean your suggested changes to the Thor are good ideas - they are horrible to be blatantly honest. Balance changes must be much more subtle, as not to effect other match-ups significantly (ideally, at all). | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On November 19 2010 02:08 Penatronic wrote: ... Vikings beat toss air like a redheaded step child. End of story Thor is anti light Viking anti armor end of story Oh. Wow. Thanks. I never thought of that, and it has never been discussed in this thread. In fact this entire thread is just Terran QQ about not being able to beat air, instead of talking about a way to open up play and move it away from bio in the late game. It's a good thing people like you are here to read the thread before posting so you can make an informed statement. On November 19 2010 02:09 DuneBug wrote: i'm fine w/ changing attack priorities so you don't hit armored air as long as we also change the attack priority that thors won't prioritize light air. I can understand prioritizing air in general, over ground. But it has to be one or the other you can't start setting priorities based on armor type. Either sacrifice dps against mutas or against heavy air, your choice. I agree with you there. It would be unusual to take a specific unit and give it somewhat specific targeting priorities (though they just did that with the Thor/Medivac thing). If you read what Nadagast was saying earlier in the thread, I think his suggestion is to keep the priority the same and shift the damage so it does more to all targets but the same to light, since as it stand a Thor hitting an armored air unit which it prioritizes means that Thor is roughly doing the same damage as a single stimmed Marine. | ||
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
I think we need to get used to the idea that the Thor cannot fulfill the role that the Goliath had in BW. Instead of a unit with a weak ground attack and very strong anti-air, it is the opposite - very strong ground attack and weak anti-air. We want it to be the Goliath though because it has a situational use against clumps of light air units. This is simply not the case. However, it's ridiculous how the presence of armored air makes Thors that you want to be attacking the ground units near-useless. Thor AI should target Light Air->Ground->Armored Air in that order. There's really no excuse for the way it is now. Until the AI priority gets fixed, there are alternatives to "Goliaths" that can work. Especially in close positions, a slow Turret push with Viking support (if necessary) is workable. Siege Tanks behind Turrets protect your push not only from air but from Colossi. For now though, mech is definitely the straight-and-narrow path for Terrans and it needs some work before the majority of players will consider learning it over 1-t-a click. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4820 Posts
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Enock927
United States30 Posts
/sarcasim If they give thor better AA v Armored, then I want my collosus to be able to shoot up also, because its not fair that it can be targeted from AA units and ground units, and does 0 dmg compared to a 125/50 stalker to air units /end sarcasim no but really, its balance, if blizzard wanted every army composition to contain thors in it, then you might get your wish... but realisically having thors good against 80% of ground units & all air units is just asking for too much, Not to mention I think interceptors are Light armored? I might be wrong but i think they are, so thors would still target those first... which is pointless because they arnt clumped up... so the fact that there is a good "Counter" to thors from protoss that doesnt get melted by 3 siege tanks is a good thing. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
The +1 range +2 armor turret is pretty much your only bet if you see Carrier/Templar. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
All protoss constantly whine that why are T so newb they should just use a better mix of units, but the difference is ground atk upgrades apply to both gateway and robo whereas we have 2 different ground upgrades required and hence its harder to use a mix of both (which is what we have to do with the current state of protoss late game), and please don't say oh well we have air upgrades as well because so do we making your point void. | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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