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On November 18 2010 22:30 HalfAmazing wrote:
Nadagast you're absolutely correct. The people disagreeing with you don't seem to understand the issue with Thor attack priority. Mixing in a single carrier, or even void ray with your ground army, completely nullifies Thor's normally high DPS. It is far too hard a counter. Fixing this issue would make TvP considerably more interesting as we'd see a lot more late game-oriented play.
This doesn't even make any sense. TARGET FIRE WITH THE THOR! It's really not hard to do at all. You can even repair the thor if you want in the battle and then it's just invincible because the rest of the P army is dead after that, and then the 1 thor can take on like 200000 carriers by itself cuz of SCVs repairing it. Giving T a unit that counters every P ground unit and air unit in the game is just stupid lol. If you don't know how to target fire units you don't deserve to be playing in MLG.
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The way I see it:
Thors can't be effective against everything, simple as that. If you say a stimmed marine has more DPS, then use stimmed marines instead, ezpz.
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On November 18 2010 19:33 Nadagast wrote:
Thors have great anti air against light units, but against armored air units, their air attack is beyond terrible. With equal upgrades against Carriers, Thors do 4x4 = 16 damage per volley. That's less DPS than a stimmed Marine.
Thors weakness against armored air targets would be reasonable if they weren't so high up on the attack priority. In a large battle with Carriers on one side and Thors on the other, Thors do basically no DPS, unless you manually target Thors on ground units, they spend the entire fight shooting Interceptors and Carriers.
Now I know what you're saying: Get Vikings to kill Armored air units. But the problem is that Vikings suck on the ground. The problem is that getting armored air units is almost always a win for the Protoss in TvP. This is only masked by the fact that most TvPs are over fairly quickly and don't ever get past 2-3 base for the P, because almost all Terrans use bio. There are three ways getting Vikings to counter Carriers can go:
1. The best case scenario is that you make just enough to kill his Carriers then hope you win the ground battle. Terran maybe comes out slightly ahead in this case. But it's very difficult to hit the exact right amount of Vikings.
2. If you lose the air battle and he has carriers left over you lose the battle. Nothing else you have that shoots up (Marines and Thors) are good vs Carriers with support.
3. If you win the air battle with too many vikings left over, you'll lose the ground fight. Vikings that are 0/0 and on the ground are pretty terrible.
Also they are on an entirely separate upgrade table so you're at 0/0 when they already have some upgrades.
There are a couple of solutions to this problem:
Change Thor anti-air damage to be 12x4, or 24x2 instead of 6+6lightx4.
Change Thors to automatically target ground units over armored air units and Interceptors.
If Thors were changed so that Terrans had a viable counter to armored air other than Viking/Marines, I believe we would see playstyles other than bio open up.
they fixed this in the latest patch: thors now prioritise attacking ground units over air units
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fun fact:
landed vikings are about equal to Stalkers and the higher the upgrades go, the better for the Viking.
the key point is the shield upgrade, 3/3/0 Stalkers vs 3/3 Vikings is a very very close fight, realy depending who ever shoots first who is going to win the fight.
if terran goes 3/3 mech and the protoss goes 3/3/0 ground, for the level3 shieldupgrade, costing a wooping 900/900, the terran can get 2/2 ship upgrades and have some spare cash, or can up to 3/3 ship for just 150 gas/mins more.
Vikings are not weak on the ground, they are about equal to stalkers, once in a ball, beat out Zealots and are not realy effected by forcefields.
psy storm does also very little because of the size of the vikings.
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On November 18 2010 21:58 JDeathmetal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 21:54 Angra wrote:On November 18 2010 21:52 JDeathmetal wrote:
while were at it, can't we just give thors 3000 HP, make them free to build. Give them anti everything and splash on the ground, and please make them free.
Then all the poor terran troubles in the oooooohhhh so hard PvT match-ups are over.
ow and please give marines and scv' s the ability to morph in to thors for free To be honest it has nothing to do with the actual Thor itself. It has to do with the fact that there's literally no good response to Protoss air, except for Marines. And that makes for a really stale matchup. Can I ask you the thousand pro matchups where we see protoss air dominate everything of terran cause there is no anti? The OP wants to see that thors counter all air, which is bs. Terran has enough anti air, I mean viking being the cheapest and strongest air unit, countering everything that toss can throw at them in the air. I don't know how you can complain about this. Indeed the match-up feels stale but thats not because protoss is so dominant in the air. Only thing I agree at is that thors should not give armored air priority, but then again a little apm from the terran side shouldnt hurt. Something else then T A+Click
I never said that Terran has no anti-air. I said that if Marines weren't made, they would have no anti-air. Most professional games involve bio, which means Marines. Believe me, if Marines didn't exist, we would see a LOT more Protoss air in the PvT matchup.
It's not even that Thors don't automatically target things like Void Rays. It's that Thors are AWFUL against Void Rays in terms of damage output, regardless if you "micro" to shoot at them or not. Considering Vikings, you need almost double the Void Ray count to deal with them if you don't have Marines. Void Rays kill Vikings almost instantly if you slip up once on keeping them out of range. The only reason Vikings have any sort of effectiveness against Void Rays is because they can take pot-shots at them out of range while being protected by Marines in the front. If those Marines didn't exist, pure Viking vs pure Void Ray is a joke.
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On November 18 2010 22:35 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 22:30 HalfAmazing wrote:
Nadagast you're absolutely correct. The people disagreeing with you don't seem to understand the issue with Thor attack priority. Mixing in a single carrier, or even void ray with your ground army, completely nullifies Thor's normally high DPS. It is far too hard a counter. Fixing this issue would make TvP considerably more interesting as we'd see a lot more late game-oriented play. This doesn't even make any sense. TARGET FIRE WITH THE THOR! It's really not hard to do at all. You can even repair the thor if you want in the battle and then it's just invincible because the rest of the P army is dead after that, and then the 1 thor can take on like 200000 carriers by itself cuz of SCVs repairing it. Giving T a unit that counters every P ground unit and air unit in the game is just stupid lol. If you don't know how to target fire units you don't deserve to be playing in MLG.
Uh, what the hell?
If it didn't make sense, why did Blizzard JUST CHANGE THE THOR so that it doesn't automatically target MEDIVACS over everything else? So that you can use it in late game TvT without the AI glitching out on you continuously.
Why would this be any different for TvP? And you realize target firing isn't even a great solution, right?
What if I have just three Thors in the late game? I can't exactly put them in a single control group and have them focus fire, they would overkill and waste their DPS. I would have to click each one individually, and have each one individually trying to kill ground units continuously, and the second I stop it will go back to firing against air etc etc.
OP brings up a decently valid point that it's pretty silly for a Thor to auto-target air over ground. I'd rather manually focus Mutalisks in TvZ than have to continuously babysit them in every other possible situation.
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omg terran is weak!
i want a thor to be effective vs EVERYTHING. i want to kill every unit that protoss somehow can get just by getting thors!
sorry, but just the fact alone, that a thor CAN shoot air is more than strong. imagine collossi could kill mutas!
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On November 18 2010 22:38 ace246 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 19:33 Nadagast wrote:
Thors have great anti air against light units, but against armored air units, their air attack is beyond terrible. With equal upgrades against Carriers, Thors do 4x4 = 16 damage per volley. That's less DPS than a stimmed Marine.
Thors weakness against armored air targets would be reasonable if they weren't so high up on the attack priority. In a large battle with Carriers on one side and Thors on the other, Thors do basically no DPS, unless you manually target Thors on ground units, they spend the entire fight shooting Interceptors and Carriers.
Now I know what you're saying: Get Vikings to kill Armored air units. But the problem is that Vikings suck on the ground. The problem is that getting armored air units is almost always a win for the Protoss in TvP. This is only masked by the fact that most TvPs are over fairly quickly and don't ever get past 2-3 base for the P, because almost all Terrans use bio. There are three ways getting Vikings to counter Carriers can go:
1. The best case scenario is that you make just enough to kill his Carriers then hope you win the ground battle. Terran maybe comes out slightly ahead in this case. But it's very difficult to hit the exact right amount of Vikings.
2. If you lose the air battle and he has carriers left over you lose the battle. Nothing else you have that shoots up (Marines and Thors) are good vs Carriers with support.
3. If you win the air battle with too many vikings left over, you'll lose the ground fight. Vikings that are 0/0 and on the ground are pretty terrible.
Also they are on an entirely separate upgrade table so you're at 0/0 when they already have some upgrades.
There are a couple of solutions to this problem:
Change Thor anti-air damage to be 12x4, or 24x2 instead of 6+6lightx4.
Change Thors to automatically target ground units over armored air units and Interceptors.
If Thors were changed so that Terrans had a viable counter to armored air other than Viking/Marines, I believe we would see playstyles other than bio open up. they fixed this in the latest patch: thors now prioritise attacking ground units over air units
Nope. It only lowered medivac priority, not all air.
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On November 18 2010 22:49 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 22:35 aike wrote:On November 18 2010 22:30 HalfAmazing wrote:
Nadagast you're absolutely correct. The people disagreeing with you don't seem to understand the issue with Thor attack priority. Mixing in a single carrier, or even void ray with your ground army, completely nullifies Thor's normally high DPS. It is far too hard a counter. Fixing this issue would make TvP considerably more interesting as we'd see a lot more late game-oriented play. This doesn't even make any sense. TARGET FIRE WITH THE THOR! It's really not hard to do at all. You can even repair the thor if you want in the battle and then it's just invincible because the rest of the P army is dead after that, and then the 1 thor can take on like 200000 carriers by itself cuz of SCVs repairing it. Giving T a unit that counters every P ground unit and air unit in the game is just stupid lol. If you don't know how to target fire units you don't deserve to be playing in MLG. Uh, what the hell? If it didn't make sense, why did Blizzard JUST CHANGE THE THOR so that it doesn't automatically target MEDIVACS over everything else? So that you can use it in late game TvT without the AI glitching out on you continuously. Why would this be any different for TvP? And you realize target firing isn't even a great solution, right? What if I have just three Thors in the late game? I can't exactly put them in a single control group and have them focus fire, they would overkill and waste their DPS. I would have to click each one individually, and have each one individually trying to kill ground units continuously, and the second I stop it will go back to firing against air etc etc. OP brings up a decently valid point that it's pretty silly for a Thor to auto-target air over ground. I'd rather manually focus Mutalisks in TvZ than have to continuously babysit them in every other possible situation.
Oh right, i'm sorry, I forgot all the noobs want Blizzard to just easy mode starcraft 2 for them so they don't even have to play. Just 1a your whole army into enemy army and sit back and watch as you win the game. I totally forgot, please forgive me.
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On November 18 2010 22:40 PulseSUI wrote:
fun fact:
landed vikings are about equal to Stalkers and the higher the upgrades go, the better for the Viking.
the key point is the shield upgrade, 3/3/0 Stalkers vs 3/3 Vikings is a very very close fight, realy depending who ever shoots first who is going to win the fight.
if terran goes 3/3 mech and the protoss goes 3/3/0 ground, for the level3 shieldupgrade, costing a wooping 900/900, the terran can get 2/2 ship upgrades and have some spare cash, or can up to 3/3 ship for just 150 gas/mins more.
Vikings are not weak on the ground, they are about equal to stalkers, once in a ball, beat out Zealots and are not realy effected by forcefields.
psy storm does also very little because of the size of the vikings.
lol. Nice to know. That makes this thread even funnier.
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Carriers aren't the issue in TvP at all, triple or even just double Reactor Starport can easily deal with Carriers.
The problem in TvP (IMO) is transitioning out of Bio into something else and actually staying alive while doing it. Transitioning into Mech is so vulnerable to a timing attack that sticking with Bio tends to get favored, until HT & Colossi show up and melt everything.
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I wonder how it would be if Thors 250mm cannon could target air. mmmmm 
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I love people who go, "Vikings have no use once all the air units are gone!" Well, they just made their use right there. You just forced them to go and face your Thor/Bioball army with their inferior ground army. That's a pretty good use right there.
And people don't realize that they are pretty good harassment units as well. 4 Vikings can take down a ton of probes and then fly away once they see the stalkers coming in to get them. If you can't find use for your vikings after they've done their job, you're not thinking hard enough.
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On November 18 2010 20:24 X-Codes wrote:
450 Minerals + 250 gas for 1 Carrier = 3 Vikings + 25 Gas leftover. 1 Carrier and 3 Vikings also have equal supply cost. Also, a Reactor'd Starport produces 3 Vikings in roughly the same amount of time it takes to create 1 Carrier from a perfectly Chronoboosted Stargate. With just a little more micro than a moving the Vikings into the Carriers, you should be able to not lose a single viking in this exchange. Yes, not ONE. Why not? Because Carriers are so laughably slow, even slower than Vikings, that they just can't catch a retreating Viking, and they can't escape from an engagement with them. I'm also not taking into account the inevitable Marine support that the first wave of Vikings will have.
Also, if you do any scouting at all then the Protoss player can't go all Suddenly... CARRIERS! on you. If they don't completely neglect their ground army, then they can probably fund 1 Stargate off 1 base and 3 Stargates off 2. So, you have an opportunity to scout their fast expo easily enough. Next is that it takes 1 minute to build the stargates and 1 more to build the Fleet Beacon. Only then do they get the pleasure of spending 2 minutes building 3 Carriers off these two bases. That's a huge window of opportunity to scout the stargates and build Vikings to counter whatever they're doing (and Vikings really do counter WHATEVER they do with Stargates).
Carriers vs. Terran is a trap of Ackbarian proportions.
Comparing Carriers to Vikings cost wise is so stupid idk what to say. Or maybe I do: HARD COUNTER. Carriers are good vs ground units and semi good vs certain air units.
The OP didn't mean to ask what to do about Carriers but why is terran mech so bad vs air in general (unless its muta)?
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On November 18 2010 20:32 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
right.. show me replays because serriousley this feels like somone wanting thor to be anti all god unit.
That's how I feel as well, I had a game last night where a 2 base terran was just going thor and marine while I had 4 bases up and I lost... I don't blame the loss to thors since I realize I did not do the proper counter but trying to take away any weakness the unit has seems unfair to me.
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It's really hard to have much sympathy for people complaining about actually having to micro their Thors in this (rather rare) situation, when Protoss players facing Thors have to individually target each SCV repairing them. Yes, the game's AI targetting could use some changes in a few different situations, but that doesn't justify the OP wanting to turn Thors into some kind of god-unit. Demands for idiotic buffs like that don't really belong anywhere on TL, and certainly not in the strategy section.
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I would love to see any replay/VOD from the 'l2mirco!' crowd, featuring them efficiently preserving the DPS of 3+ thors in an engangement of two 140 food armies, where the toss brings gateway units and their crowd control units (colo or HT) with 3 voids or 1 carrier against their mech army.
The problem being described isn't that the terran gets owned by the air units, but by the thors not contributing to the fight the second they can shoot at armored air targets.
This also counters all the 'but toss can never get 5 carriers all of the sudden!' arguements. They don't have to. When going mech, you rely alot on the single target DPS of thors to augment you splash dmg of tanks and hellions. Protoss being on gateway/colossi just needs to bring in 1 or maybe 2 carriers or - if he needs to attack quickly - 3-4 voids and the same army that would have lost convincingly to the mech army will now just overrun them, because the thors are not participating in the actual fight. With the thor temporarily out of the equation, tanks just get owned by zealots (damaging each other and the thors in the process) and the hellions get roasted by the collosi.
Another problem is the fact, that vikings don't solve this problem. They just shorten the time during which the thors are disabled and usually they are not worth the gas that you need for your mech army unless you see the stargates - and then it's too late.
Also - if toss does a serious switch to carriers, you better have forseen that. Yes, in theory land 1 viking perfectly controlled kills infinity carriers, but in reality you cannot kite forever, because they are doing damage to your ground army or base while chasing your kiting vikings.
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The issue with Mech is vulnerability to blink stalkers... Yes, it can't address armored air well, but that's fine in my opinion.
Theoretically, Stalkers should be pretty badly countered by tanks or thors. However, because of the bloody blink, a pure stalker composition will counter thor/siege tank (As a T player, I've experimented with this against a practice partner; it's possible I suck, but it just seems that blink-surrounds decimate the soft tanks or even thors easily for cost. And stalkers are hardly a niche unit for P.
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On November 18 2010 22:33 Panoptic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 22:26 sandroba wrote:
Wow, I can't believe how stubborn the responses are in this thread. Nadagast has a point. Listen to him before blindly questioning what he's trying to point out. Each thor does insane dmg vs ground so you have to basically manually target every single one of your thors if the protoss has any kind of armored air or you're turning your 500 resource unit into one comparable to a marine in terms of dps (50 resource unit). That requires a insane amount apm to do if you have multiple thors. That's clearly an unintended side effect of thors anti-air priority and I expect it to be patched soon because it only makes the game more one dimensional. I don't quite understand how it takes such insane apm? Ctrl+ left click on thor (select all thors) Shift + A-click on the units you want it to attack Depending on how many thors you have Shift and left click on portraits to lessen your selection and tell those thors to attack new targes to lessen overkill. non?
Have you even played the game man? What you're suggesting is absurd. It can't be done. Not by anyone.
Seriously what the fuck is up with all the lunacy straight outta Bronze telling you to manually target stalkers with your Thors? Even if you could do it (which you can't), you'd be giving up a fuckload of DPS.
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On November 19 2010 00:30 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 22:33 Panoptic wrote:On November 18 2010 22:26 sandroba wrote:
Wow, I can't believe how stubborn the responses are in this thread. Nadagast has a point. Listen to him before blindly questioning what he's trying to point out. Each thor does insane dmg vs ground so you have to basically manually target every single one of your thors if the protoss has any kind of armored air or you're turning your 500 resource unit into one comparable to a marine in terms of dps (50 resource unit). That requires a insane amount apm to do if you have multiple thors. That's clearly an unintended side effect of thors anti-air priority and I expect it to be patched soon because it only makes the game more one dimensional. I don't quite understand how it takes such insane apm? Ctrl+ left click on thor (select all thors) Shift + A-click on the units you want it to attack Depending on how many thors you have Shift and left click on portraits to lessen your selection and tell those thors to attack new targes to lessen overkill. non? Have you even played the game man? What you're suggesting is absurd. It can't be done. Not by anyone. Seriously what the fuck is up with all the lunacy straight outta Bronze telling you to manually target stalkers with your Thors? Even if you could do it (which you can't), you'd be giving up a fuckload of DPS.
Have you guys ever even heard of control groups? Saying it can't be done is like saying I can't cast 10 storms within 5 seconds in BW on a giant army of hydras under dark swarms. Or I can't dodge lurker shots with marines. I will make you guys a replay and show you how it's done because you all seem so terrible you can't use 50 APM to target a few units manually. I've almost never played Terran and I bet I can do this no problem.
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EPT
