EPTWeak Thor AA crippling TvP creativity - Page 11
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J_rocwz
Canada18 Posts
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brainpower
United States233 Posts
The voidray, which costs only 50/50 less than the thor, takes the same amount of time to build, and which even when charged does 15 damage or 17 with +1 attack every .6 seconds, to a thor that has 400 HP, and takes 16 seconds to kill with no upgrade, and 14 seconds to kill with +1. If the thor has +1 armor, it actually survives for a full 15 seconds and will always get the 1st shot because it has longer range. I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem reasonable to me. Voidrays are meant to be the most effective way for Protoss players to deal with single powerful targets. Perhaps there could be some sort of tweeking with thors, but giving them the full +6 bonus to armored is far too powerful. | ||
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RexFTW
United States172 Posts
unless you manually target Thors on ground units, they spend the entire fight shooting Interceptors and Carriers. Signed. Terran should be able to A+MOVE and win. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
On November 19 2010 12:24 RexFTW wrote: Signed. Terran should be able to A+MOVE and win. LOL, i cant agree more with you User was warned for this post | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
Brainpower: With my suggestion of 12x4 or 24x2, a Thor would do 48 damage every 3 seconds or 16 DPS to a Void Ray. A charged Void Ray would do 15 damage every .6 seconds or 25 DPS to a Thor. It would take 16 seconds for the VR to kill the Thor and 15.6 seconds for the Thor to kill a Void Ray. Void Rays are less expensive than Thors and far more mobile. Stargates are cheaper than a Tech Lab + Factory. I don't see this as too terrible. Void Rays would still be extremely powerful vs Thors, especially with any ground support whatsoever. It would merely make it so that it's not so incredibly one sided. Generally if air units fight ground units that can shoot up in a straight up battle, they lose cost for cost. It has to be this way otherwise air units become extraordinarily powerful. If they can cost effectively trade/beat ground units then flying around harassing and picking off small clumps of units becomes too strong. If it turns out that 24x2 or 12x4 is too powerful, then change Thors to (10+2Light)x4 or (20+4Light)x2. It is the ridiculous level of damage reduction that Thors take when shooting armored air that I want to negate somewhat. Especially since they automatically target air. Going from ~50 DPS shooting ground to ~5 DPS shooting armored air is not acceptable while Thors prioritize armored air. The Thor pilot shouldn't be so stupid as to intentionally target things he does 90% less damage on  | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
On November 19 2010 12:38 Nadagast wrote: Going from ~50 DPS shooting ground to ~5 DPS shooting armored air is not acceptable while Thors prioritize armored air. The Thor pilot shouldn't be so stupid as to intentionally target things he does 90% less damage on if you're going to argue for this, you really need to argue that each unit should automatically target whatever unit it can do the most damage to, not just Thors. So Immortals will auto target Marauders, and banelings should neatly dodge any tanks and roll themselves into the nearest marine ball without help. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On November 18 2010 23:11 Krejven wrote: I wonder how it would be if Thors 250mm cannon could target air. mmmmm 250mm cannon should be changed to target massive air. After all, they (Carriers/BCs/Broodlord) are themselves, the size of buildings. If IRL, a 19th century tank can shoot down a blimp (WWI), a 25th century 50ft tall mech shouldn't have a problem, no? Edit: Read through the entire thread. Bonus vs X unit AI should be fixed ASAP *Thor pilots should be choosing those roaches burning off their marine friend's faces than the Corrupter standing around doing its thing. *Immortal pilots should be bashing in the Ultralisk's face that's slicing his poor zealot friends than the lings munching on their butt. *sadly zerg players don't really have this problem, aside from banelings. :-( | ||
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pandaminion
United States270 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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lao
United States33 Posts
On November 19 2010 13:20 Paradice wrote: if you're going to argue for this, you really need to argue that each unit should automatically target whatever unit it can do the most damage to, not just Thors. So Immortals will auto target Marauders, and banelings should neatly dodge any tanks and roll themselves into the nearest marine ball without help. And to add to that, you'd have to make a priority list, because it can't just be air vs ground, (otherwise the thor would target zerglings over mutas and Z could exploit the AI there) it would have to be split between armored air, light air, armored ground, light ground. Would you want the thor to rank it 1) light air, 2) armored ground, 3) armored air, 4) light ground? This would mean a single void ray would get attack priority over zealots. Or would you switch armored air and light ground, which would mean broodlings get priority over the broodlords? There's no easy answer. In fact, some units don't do damage based on armored or light. What about the archon? Shouldn't the archon then prioritize marines over hellions because marines are bio, even though they're both light? You would have to create a unique attack priority list for every single unit, but then people could exploit the AI, baiting it to attack the wrong thing. ...Or you could just make some fucking marines/vikings and kill the carrier. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
They're a ridiculously good AA unit with NINE RANGE and addition to that, they can land on the ground. Zerg has corruptors, and ALL they do is attack air. It seems like you just want to be able to build 1 unit to deal with everything, which is pretty ridiculous. If someone is going Carriers, AND a big ground force, then your macro at that stage, if equal to theirs, should allow you to create Vikings and a significant ground army. This post seems pretty ridiculous, its like you want Thors to be awesome against everything. | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
I don't think many of you realize just how bad Thors are vs armored air... | ||
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davidcroda
United States7 Posts
User was warned for this post User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
If you want an awesome ground force killing machine you will have to build anti-air to supplement it. If I build collosus I will need stalker and phoenix to defend it. I think I will start requesting collosus to be able to shoot lasers into the sky now. pewpewpew all die | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:10 Zaurus wrote: The thing is I dont think thor is suppose to be killing armored air. Will you be happier if they remove it completely? I would actually be happier if Thors just couldn't shoot armored air/interceptors at all, yes. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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lao
United States33 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:00 Nadagast wrote: The changes I proposed wouldn't make Thors 'awesome' at killing armored air. They would simply be better than the horrible piece of garbage they are now at killing armored air. I don't think many of you realize just how bad Thors are vs armored air... Tanks are even worse versus armored air. What's your point? Why SHOULD thors be good against armored air? Their role is specifically to 1) kill everything on the ground, and 2) completely shut down mutas and phoenixes. So when you see armored air, your response is to build marines/vikings, not to expect thors to be able to deal with them. I'm trying not to be rude here, but are you even listening to yourself? There are eleven pages of people saying the same thing. Are you really Nadagast? I always defend WOW arenas on TL, but this arena imba whining attitude does not belong in the Starcraft community. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
And let us not forget that Thors have anti-air splash, which works well against interceptors and multiple Voids. Mass Thors beats mass voids because of splash. Stupid Terrans need to realize that the only anti-air ground unit Protoss has are Stalkers. Stop complaining and learn to deal with your situation instead of calling TvP "uncreative" because Thors need a buff. Worried about which units your Thors target? Micro. I almost find this thread offending as a Protoss player. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
On November 19 2010 13:20 Paradice wrote: if you're going to argue for this, you really need to argue that each unit should automatically target whatever unit it can do the most damage to, not just Thors. So Immortals will auto target Marauders, and banelings should neatly dodge any tanks and roll themselves into the nearest marine ball without help. thats just stupid, thors are so complete garbage agaisnt armored air, the protoss shouldn't have to just make 1 carrier and abuse the AI for a freewin vs 15 thors because his ground army will now not take ANY damage | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:20 lao wrote: Tanks are even worse versus armored air. What's your point? Why SHOULD thors be good against armored air? Their role is specifically to 1) kill everything on the ground, and 2) completely shut down mutas and phoenixes. So when you see armored air, your response is to build marines/vikings, not to expect thors to be able to deal with them. I'm trying not to be rude here, but are you even listening to yourself? There are eleven pages of people saying the same thing. Are you really Nadagast? I always defend WOW arenas on TL, but this arena imba whining attitude does not belong in the Starcraft community. If you followed WoW arenas at all, you'd know I'm not the type to complain imba. I played one of the worst comps in the game (WLD) at tournaments and didn't really complain about it. The problem is that Thors cannot accomplish role 1 (kill everything on the ground) if there are armored air units out. It takes far more micro to have all your Thors individually targeting separate Stalkers/Zealots than it does to control a Baneling pack or a few Immortals to focus tanks/ultras. I think the problem in this thread is that people don't understand that magnitudes exist. Just because it's qualitatively similar to force my Thors to attack ground as it is for you to target fire with Immortals or control a Baneling pack, does not make them equivalent. One is much more difficult to do. Just because Thors doing less damage to armored air than ground is qualitatively similar to Banelings doing less damage to armored and Immortals doing less damage to Light, does not make them equivalent. One is far more devastating to the damage a unit puts out. Here's a simple way of putting the problem: A Carrier or two is essentially dark swarm/PDD for your entire army from Thor damage. Yes it's partially negate-able (with emphasis on the word partially) with micro but it is extremely powerful for the cost. It has far more 'charges' than a PDD and a larger radius, and it's passive, you don't have to cast anything. | ||
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