EPTWeak Thor AA crippling TvP creativity - Page 10
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xseverityx
52 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:38 IPA wrote: Nadagast (correct me if I'm wrong) tests a lot of this shit out with none other than PainUser. He (Pain) talks about some of these findings at length on the most recent State of the Game podcast. So please, at least engage in civilized discussion here instead of mocking what you don't understand. But you probably know better than PainUser right? -_- Only when he says that would rather have a DT than a Banshee... | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
thors weak AA against armoured units are not the reason that terran is restricted to bio and protoss is restricted to robo builds. ther are two units in this matchup that pigeon holes both races into certain tech trees. they are the banshee and the immortal. the banshee is an insta win against any protoss that doesnt open with a robo. which is why protoss MUST open robo just because of the risk of cloacked banshees. this moves to the next problem of the matchup. because the banshee forces a robo, immortals are always available to be built. and immortals are the reason you dont see huge tank lines like you did in BW, and with hellions not filling as many useful roles as the vulture did pure mech builds are just not that effective. an immortal can tank 14 YES THATS FOURTEEN tanks shots whilst they are sieged. meaning well yeah that gives protosses army time to get into the tanks range completely nulifiing the advantage of siege tanks in the first place. sure you could say that charge lots and what not also reduce te effectiveness of mech. but nothing more then the immortal can. so essentially the banshee has pigeon holed the entire matchup. threat of banshee=must open robo=mech openings dont work= bio play from terran = collosus into ht play from toss.=terran only staying in the late game if they drop enough=protoss winning late game unless terran does enough damage with drops. if the clocked banshee didnt exist then we might see different openings from protoss, either stargate play or templar tech. meaning someone could then attempt to open mech abuse a timing where the toss hasnt gotten a robo straight away and potentially open up the matchup in alot of new different ways. but blizzard instead of opening up new avenues is going to do the half assed job and just nerf whats currently being used. so no OP thors weak antiarmoured AA goes with the unit. strong on ground, and able to beat mutas cost effectively. sorry but you cant have your super unit. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:31 Antisocialmunky wrote: They need the Pro Strategy forum already. :[ Don't worry, what you said makes sense and its one of the problems that makes TvP stupid and boring to play. WoW has a gated forum community ( www.arenajunkies.com ) where only Gladiators (top 0.5% maybe equivalent right now to roughly ~2.3k+ Diamond) can post. I think that'd be something nice to have for Starcraft. I don't mean to be an elitist but I really feel like any serious thread is ruined by a swarm of random people posting who really have no idea what they are talking about. Their only experience with high level play is spectating games on streams. They simply don't have the experience/game sense to post reasonable comments about balance (especially in situations like this which rarely, if ever, show up in a stream). Plus there are so many posts that are filled with anger because they think their race sucks. ArenaJunkies isn't perfect, but it's way better than the WoW public forums. If people who aren't at the top tier of the community want to see balance discussed in a reasonable way by people of at least decent skill level, this is really the only option I think. Otherwise balance talk and strategy discussion will be limited mostly to private areas (skype, PMs, ventrilo, etc). | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
You're trying to argue "buff thors" by using a flawed army comp as your basis. | ||
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zeidrichthorene
Canada83 Posts
There's 5 parts to the air equation that all races have. 1: Air Superiority 2: Transport 3: Light Harass 4: Heavy Assault 5: Detection 1: Air superiority is covered by Mutalisks, Vikings and Phoenix. They are the fast, cheap, air to air units. Mutas are inherently weak so they can be backed up by corruptors in heavy air to air engagements, but typically don't need to be because they often have a large numbers advantage. 2: Transport is obvious, but if you are trying to transport when your opponent has air superiority there are serious issues risks involved. 3: Light Harass can be done by the air superiority units. It can also be done by the harass units (Mutas, void rays, banshees). Notice that muta is both air superiority and harass, that's because it's not particularly great at either job, but it's cheap and fast, and can be produced more easily than other races. Again, if you try to use your light harass units when your opponent has air control, you'll be a lot less effective. Light harass can be pretty easily dealt with by ground to air forces. 4: Heavy Assault is Battlecruisers, Carriers and Broodlords. If your opponent has air superiority, these are barely usable. When you have air superiority and use these units, they're very difficult to kill. However, they are also cost-inefficient and risky to get. They are very supply-efficient however. They're quite strong against ground to air units. 5: Mobile detection is all air, Ravens, Observervers and Overseers. Having air control (which allows you to safely have detection of your own for the observers) allows you to deny your opponents detection making your cloaked units more powerful if you're interested in that. This whole ecosystem is reliant on the fact that things kind of suck for shooting up. I mean, battlecruisers are rarely used as it is, but in a TvT, the only thing that isn't completely horrible at killing a battlecruiser is a viking. I've won TvTs where the opponent has massively invested into tanks/thors/marines and won simply because I've had a couple of battlecruisers. Thors and marines both are severely impacted by the BC's base armor, and BC air to ground damage is quite high. But BCs need to have that air control in order to work, a few vikings would have completely ruined it. If my opponent cedes air control to me, that's easy enough to manage. It would be the same against a protoss who goes carriers. Carriers have good armor, mitigate damage by drawing fire on their interceptors, but they kind of suck against a reasonable viking force. The same with brood lords. The best ground to air each race has is in their standard "versatile" unit, and that's the marine, stalker, hydra. Stimmed Marines deal 10.5 dps/supply, but lose about 1.8 dps per armor of the target and are very fragile. Stalkers deal 4.86 dps/supply, and only lose only about 0.3 dps/supply per armor of the target and are quite sturdy. Hydralisks deal about 7.2 dps per supply, they lose about 0.6 dps/supply per armor of their target, and are more sturdy than stimmed marines, but less so than stalkers. In short, they all suck against reasonably armored air units with powerful ground attacks. The exception is marines supported by medivacs, but then again, medivacs means you're investing in starport tech, and starport tech is what should deny heavy air units. Thors should not get a powerful ground to air attack, no other ground units have a powerful ground to air attack. If you want to defend against heavy air like carriers, you should either not let them get ahead to the point where they can get carriers without dying, or you should use the air control units like vikings to deal with them. Sure, the vikings aren't great after the carriers are gone, but you let him get carriers, so it's your own fault. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:45 Nadagast wrote: WoW has a gated forum community ( www.arenajunkies.com ) where only Gladiators (top 0.5% maybe equivalent right now to roughly ~2.3k+ Diamond) can post. I think that'd be something nice to have for Starcraft. I don't mean to be an elitist but I really feel like any serious thread is ruined by a swarm of random people posting who really have no idea what they are talking about. Their only experience with high level play is spectating games on streams. They simply don't have the experience/game sense to post reasonable comments about balance (especially in situations like this which rarely, if ever, show up in a stream). Plus there are so many posts that are filled with anger because they think their race sucks. ArenaJunkies isn't perfect, but it's way better than the WoW public forums. If people who aren't at the top tier of the community want to see balance discussed in a reasonable way by people of at least decent skill level, this is really the only option I think. Otherwise balance talk and strategy discussion will be limited mostly to private areas (skype, PMs, ventrilo, etc). It's weird, the public is basically ruining their chance to see more of what high level players think by posting so ignorantly and violently. I completely agree; I thought your OP was decent and could have stimulated some good discussion about late game mech and terran AA. Too bad every other post is more or less absolute shit. | ||
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CidO
United States695 Posts
marines and vikings should be flying with your thors and if they ever get to carriers (3+ bases) you will have thors also. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:45 Nadagast wrote: WoW has a gated forum community ( www.arenajunkies.com ) where only Gladiators (top 0.5% maybe equivalent right now to roughly ~2.3k+ Diamond) can post. I think that'd be something nice to have for Starcraft. I don't mean to be an elitist but I really feel like any serious thread is ruined by a swarm of random people posting who really have no idea what they are talking about. Their only experience with high level play is spectating games on streams. They simply don't have the experience/game sense to post reasonable comments about balance (especially in situations like this which rarely, if ever, show up in a stream). Plus there are so many posts that are filled with anger because they think their race sucks. ArenaJunkies isn't perfect, but it's way better than the WoW public forums. If people who aren't at the top tier of the community want to see balance discussed in a reasonable way by people of at least decent skill level, this is really the only option I think. Otherwise balance talk and strategy discussion will be limited mostly to private areas (skype, PMs, ventrilo, etc). It's weird, the public is basically ruining their chance to see more of what high level players think by posting so ignorantly and violently. Granted. I personally accept what you say to be good and true. But can't you see how your suggestion at least sounds like one that would make Thor would be OP? I'm not sure you've given sufficient reason as to why that wouldn't be the case, and you also haven't suggested any effects it might have in the other matchups. Remember, Thors are often a pretty integral unit against Zerg and Terran. I think having a unit perform really well in all matchup's is rare because, well, it's hard to balance. Also, whilst a large part of your concern stems from the matchup not being interesting or dynamic enough, people still value balance over that, and I think rightly so...to a degree. Either way, if any concensus is reached that something does have to be changed, the point of contention will lie here: Change Thor anti-air damage to be 12x4, or 24x2 instead of 6+6lightx4. Change Thors to automatically target ground units over armored air units and Interceptors. This is what I imagine most people are flipping out about. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
That's the thing people miss. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
TLDR: instead of focus firing the carriers themselves, just atim the marines and let the thors and marines shred the interceptors -.- Edit: If I'm missing something here please feel free to correct me. It's just that the general consensus as to why carriers really aren't seen so often is the fact that they're not only expensive and take forever to get, interceptors fragility also gimped carrier viability. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
On November 19 2010 09:19 Antisocialmunky wrote: This issue isn't buffing Thors, the issue is making TvP 200% less boring because T's GtA is unreliable, its AtA eats away too much ground army, and the Thor AI is retarded... That's the thing people miss. And the issue that I think we can deduce all the flaming bronze level noobs are having is that the current suggestions for making Tvp 200% less boring basically look like big fat buffs. See how it's all inter-linked? I for one have no idea whether the current suggestions would be imbalanced. I don't think you do either. I don't think nadagast does. The only way you can really know is to implement it and test it out. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:57 space_yes wrote: I completely agree; I thought your OP was decent and could have stimulated some good discussion about late game mech and terran AA. Too bad every other post is more or less absolute shit. I second that. Meh... people want to talk not to listen, what else is new?  I am all for the elitist discussion because TBH, i do not give a flying duck about what a bronze-mid diamond player thinks about balance. Not because they should not have the right to speak, but because they have so much to learn that 99% of what they think they know is wrong. It is so much easier to say "imba"/be arrogant/aggressive/disrespectful then to ask for help. I am a big fan of Mech play and really want it to be viable in all MUs (in different ways). To me, the Thor is the worst unit in the late mech army specifically because of its AA function. Between magic box mutas and low vs armored dmg, you just can not relay on it. I'll say it again, the mech nerf is what ducked Terran's late game in both TvP and TvZ. You need a lot more Tanks then you did before, drastically reducing your AA capabilities to the point where the stile became unviable. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:49 Craton wrote: If he goes carriers, get BCs and 1-2 ghosts. EMP + Yamato will trivialize carriers. At that point you just reinforce with vikings. (Although frankly you can outmicro with vikings alone, but since you have such a viking aversion...) You're trying to argue "buff thors" by using a flawed army comp as your basis. The level of understanding evident in replies such as this is so aggravating. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
I think bio is too strong and cost effective early to midgame compared to other options and that is the reason most tvp games are rather dull. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On November 19 2010 10:09 {ToT}ColmA wrote: I think bio is too strong and cost effective early to midgame compared to other options and that is the reason most tvp games are rather dull. This is obviously correct, but there's really no other way to play the match-up, either. You just can not beat an equally skilled protoss player without going bio -> vikings/ghosts. It's not that terran players are lazy and don't want do do anything other than bio, it's that everything else is literally pure shit. Try playing a really good protoss player without doing some boring, bland, predictable bio build, and he will come at you from so many angles you'll want to claw your eyes out. It's just fucked. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:49 Craton wrote: If he goes carriers, get BCs and 1-2 ghosts. EMP + Yamato will trivialize carriers. At that point you just reinforce with vikings. (Although frankly you can outmicro with vikings alone, but since you have such a viking aversion...) You're trying to argue "buff thors" by using a flawed army comp as your basis. I agree with a previous poster...replies like this are why we can't have nice things. I think if your refutation to a strategy involves 2 ghosts and yamato cannon, you shouldn't be posting in the strategy forum, A simple easy solution would just be to add a "1800+ Diamond" forum which enforces that you need to be 1800 or higher diamond to post. You don't even need to put on a hard restriction, saying it is enough to cut down on 90% of the bronze posts. As far as the OP goes... buffing and already top-of-the-line beastly unit is not the way to go about opening up room for creativity. If Thors beat everything else dollar for dollar, every game would be Thors. If that's what you want your games to look like, a couple of units that are the best at everything and are spammed every game, there's a game called Command and Conquer. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
Lemme try: On November 18 2010 19:33 Some random l2p Zerg wrote: Now I know what you're saying: Get 1. The best case scenario is that you make just enough to kill his 2. If you lose the air battle and he has 3. If you win the air battle with too many Also they are on an entirely separate upgrade table so you're at 0/0 when they already have some upgrades. If But seriously, how is this situation any different than Zerg being forced to get corrupter's to counter colossus? If you don't do it exactly right, you're in this exact same situation. | ||
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