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On November 18 2010 20:49 Nadagast wrote:For all the people replying telling me to simply build bio... I know. I am not saying that the matchup is imbalanced, I am saying that Thor's AA weakness limits Terran creativity. Unless you want to see Marine/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac against Protoss until the end of time, this is important. Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 20:45 SwizzY wrote:
I didn't really realize that this was that big of an issue...
How many 200/200 vs 200/200 colliding balls of death between thors and carriers happen on the pro-level?...
I just feel like OP is tackling the whole argument incorrectly:
1) Thor AA should NOT be an end-all be-all solution to both armored AND light air. That's just OP
2) Instead of a+clicking and leaving it at that, I don't think its too much to consider manually making your thors target high value targets like HT/archons/colo (when applicable), and immortals.
I just don't know how to feel about this topic because its soooooooo situational. Closer to theorycrafting than anything. If Thors did more than 1 stimmed Marine's DPS vs armored air, you'd have already seen different things in this matchup.
Serious Protoss players don't get armored air vs. Terran. I thought we've been over that already. Basing a substantial change to a unit because of one conditional situation that only happens in very low-level play on very rare occasion is extremely bad game design.
That said, we're not going to see MMM w/ Ghost & Viking support until the end of time in TvP. We've got two expansions for SC 2 in the works, and who knows? Maybe one of these packs will bring back the Corsair, and said Corsair will own Vikings. Maybe there will be a new Goliath that is an effective ground-based counter to heavy air-assault units. Lots of things can happen, but it's not going to be any of your ideas.
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Thors have an upgrade. I suggest you upgrade it. Strike cannons tear apart basically anything. It locks down an enemy unit and prevents it from attacking. That means that the enemy unit is dealing less dps THAN AN OBSERVER. For toss to go heavy carrier, they either have no ground force or they only have 3-4 carriers. Either way, thors should eat those armies.
Note that I suggest targeting the carrier in this situation and not a high templar or a zealot with the cannon. Just to be clear I present the following:
1) Select Thor
2) Target Carrier with Strike Cannon
3) ????
4) Profit
I'd find a replay, but I never see carriers except from the carrier rush daily.
Also, i noticed you commented on losing 15 tanks to one carrier. Standard terran play generally has at least 2 vikings for sighting purposes to abuse the range. I realize that you're trying to steer clear of this, but its truly the strongest play available on 2 or less bases. Also, if you actually can get to 3 bases then you should have enough money to make vikings and tanks with thors thrown in. No upgrades though 
User was warned for this post
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The attack priority should be changed at least. Carriers (and vr) do own late game mech tvp...
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On November 18 2010 21:13 X-Codes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 20:49 Nadagast wrote:For all the people replying telling me to simply build bio... I know. I am not saying that the matchup is imbalanced, I am saying that Thor's AA weakness limits Terran creativity. Unless you want to see Marine/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac against Protoss until the end of time, this is important. On November 18 2010 20:45 SwizzY wrote:
I didn't really realize that this was that big of an issue...
How many 200/200 vs 200/200 colliding balls of death between thors and carriers happen on the pro-level?...
I just feel like OP is tackling the whole argument incorrectly:
1) Thor AA should NOT be an end-all be-all solution to both armored AND light air. That's just OP
2) Instead of a+clicking and leaving it at that, I don't think its too much to consider manually making your thors target high value targets like HT/archons/colo (when applicable), and immortals.
I just don't know how to feel about this topic because its soooooooo situational. Closer to theorycrafting than anything. If Thors did more than 1 stimmed Marine's DPS vs armored air, you'd have already seen different things in this matchup. Serious Protoss players don't get armored air vs. Terran. I thought we've been over that already. Basing a substantial change to a unit because of one conditional situation that only happens in very low-level play on very rare occasion is extremely bad game design. That said, we're not going to see MMM w/ Ghost & Viking support until the end of time in TvP. We've got two expansions for SC 2 in the works, and who knows? Maybe one of these packs will bring back the Corsair, and said Corsair will own Vikings. Maybe there will be a new Goliath that is an effective ground-based counter to heavy air-assault units. Lots of things can happen, but it's not going to be any of your ideas.
How would you know this?
Are Inka and Socke not 'serious' Protoss players? Plenty of high level 'serious' Protoss players do get armored air if they get the chance, especially if you are using any strategy besides mass bio.
I like how everyone is treating me like I'm a newb. Sigh.
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[B
1) Select Thor
2) Target Carrier with Strike Cannon
3) ????
4) Profit
wait, strike cannons can target air units? 0.0
can someone please confirm or refute this, because if it is true, then we have the answer to all the OPs worries right there...
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On November 18 2010 21:20 Nycaloth wrote:wait, strike cannons can target air units? 0.0 can someone please confirm or refute this, because if it is true, then we have the answer to all the OPs worries right there...
Strike Cannons cannot target air units, unless I am totally crazy.
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You cannot use Strike Cannons on air.
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On November 18 2010 21:19 Nadagast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 21:13 X-Codes wrote:On November 18 2010 20:49 Nadagast wrote:For all the people replying telling me to simply build bio... I know. I am not saying that the matchup is imbalanced, I am saying that Thor's AA weakness limits Terran creativity. Unless you want to see Marine/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac against Protoss until the end of time, this is important. On November 18 2010 20:45 SwizzY wrote:
I didn't really realize that this was that big of an issue...
How many 200/200 vs 200/200 colliding balls of death between thors and carriers happen on the pro-level?...
I just feel like OP is tackling the whole argument incorrectly:
1) Thor AA should NOT be an end-all be-all solution to both armored AND light air. That's just OP
2) Instead of a+clicking and leaving it at that, I don't think its too much to consider manually making your thors target high value targets like HT/archons/colo (when applicable), and immortals.
I just don't know how to feel about this topic because its soooooooo situational. Closer to theorycrafting than anything. If Thors did more than 1 stimmed Marine's DPS vs armored air, you'd have already seen different things in this matchup. Serious Protoss players don't get armored air vs. Terran. I thought we've been over that already. Basing a substantial change to a unit because of one conditional situation that only happens in very low-level play on very rare occasion is extremely bad game design. That said, we're not going to see MMM w/ Ghost & Viking support until the end of time in TvP. We've got two expansions for SC 2 in the works, and who knows? Maybe one of these packs will bring back the Corsair, and said Corsair will own Vikings. Maybe there will be a new Goliath that is an effective ground-based counter to heavy air-assault units. Lots of things can happen, but it's not going to be any of your ideas. How would you know this? Are Inka and Socke not 'serious' Protoss players? Plenty of high level 'serious' Protoss players do get armored air if they get the chance, especially if you are using any strategy besides mass bio. I like how everyone is treating me like I'm a newb. Sigh.
That's probably cuz you're a WoW player  lulz. We've all seen tons of pro level protoss games, and very rarely does it get to that point in a game where any player needs to even worry about carriers, unless a toss does like a 2 base carrier all-in surprise attack thing then I don't see it being a big problem in more than maybe... .01% of TvPs. But really, at the point in the game you are suggesting (4+ base) you should already have a starport with either a techlab or reactor. You could use hunter seeker missiles on a carrier by this point if you wanted to. EMP + Thor strike cannon maybe? Or just make vikings. If you make vikings then kill carriers and he switches to heavy ground army, use the vikings to harass his mineral lines. Vikings are cheap, so might as well through a few in your army anyways.
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On November 18 2010 19:33 Nadagast wrote:
Thors have great anti air against light units, but against armored air units, their air attack is beyond terrible. With equal upgrades against Carriers, Thors do 4x4 = 16 damage per volley. That's less DPS than a stimmed Marine.
Thors weakness against armored air targets would be reasonable if they weren't so high up on the attack priority. In a large battle with Carriers on one side and Thors on the other, Thors do basically no DPS, unless you manually target Thors on ground units, they spend the entire fight shooting Interceptors and Carriers.
Now I know what you're saying: Get Vikings to kill Armored air units. But the problem is that Vikings suck on the ground. The problem is that getting armored air units is almost always a win for the Protoss in TvP. This is only masked by the fact that most TvPs are over fairly quickly and don't ever get past 2-3 base for the P, because almost all Terrans use bio. There are three ways getting Vikings to counter Carriers can go:
1. The best case scenario is that you make just enough to kill his Carriers then hope you win the ground battle. Terran maybe comes out slightly ahead in this case. But it's very difficult to hit the exact right amount of Vikings.
2. If you lose the air battle and he has carriers left over you lose the battle. Nothing else you have that shoots up (Marines and Thors) are good vs Carriers with support.
3. If you win the air battle with too many vikings left over, you'll lose the ground fight. Vikings that are 0/0 and on the ground are pretty terrible.
Also they are on an entirely separate upgrade table so you're at 0/0 when they already have some upgrades.
There are a couple of solutions to this problem:
Change Thor anti-air damage to be 12x4, or 24x2 instead of 6+6lightx4.
Change Thors to automatically target ground units over armored air units and Interceptors.
If Thors were changed so that Terrans had a viable counter to armored air other than Viking/Marines, I believe we would see playstyles other than bio open up.
Wow i cant believe you are complaining! Viking dominates air and bio dominate ground. The only problem you have is to get the correct amount. Protoss has to survive enough to get those carriers + hope you over commit on ground/air. Why do you want another counter to armored air? you already got 2 great unit to deal with those. One of which is given at you from the very first minutes. Look at how protoss struggles much more against air armored units ( we havent got a decent unit against them ).
Please this is just ridiculous.
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On November 18 2010 21:19 Nadagast wrote:
How would you know this?
Are Inka and Socke not 'serious' Protoss players? Plenty of high level 'serious' Protoss players do get armored air if they get the chance, especially if you are using any strategy besides mass bio.
I like how everyone is treating me like I'm a newb. Sigh.
Because air units are good at fighting a mechanical ground army. thy have to be because nothing can really stand up to tanks and thors on the ground. bio units on the other hand handle the air threat better but are vulnerable to colossi and storm. the trick is to get the right mix of both and not just mindlessly mass any one given unit.
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He doesn't want another counter to armored air, he wants an attack priority change so he doesn't need to have 500apm just for microing the Thors in his army when there are armored air units out and about (the most common instance of this being Carriers in late-game PvT).
Most people don't get to late-game PvT and don't understand why this is a needed change so Nadagast looks a little crazy, but as the game progresses and strategies mature, carriers will likely see a lot more use vs mech terran in lategame (which is currently a very popular strategy amongst high level players)
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Ok, I predominantly play Zerg. In my mind, Zerglings are always useful. They're fast, they're easy to micro, and they're deadly when they get their surround. All of these are traits common to successful play as the Swarm.
I intend to learn Terran as well, and my philosophy there is going to be: never stop building marines. No reason to ever do so. They're cheap, they hit hard, and they're the best AA unit Terrans have.
Finally, Protoss. I see far too little Zealot play for my liking from even some of the best Protoss players. At 100 minerals and 150 overall health, Zealots have the best resource to HP ratio of any mobile unit in the game, with the added benefit of a base armor of 1 and an extremely strong Melee attack. It also synergizes very well with Sentry's Guardian Shield and can gain the Charge ability to close to melee in the blink of an eye and start dealing it's damage ASAP.
IMO, every race has their staple unit that should be continually produced as it always serves a purpose. Complaining about Marines being the Terran staple is, frankly, odd.
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Just beeing curious, but if Thors were that much more effective against air (case A) how should a P react to you then probably going Bio + Thor against his armored air + probably some "typical" warpgate-stuff?
And if Thors wouldn't target the armored air with such a high priority (case B), wouldn't you still need to get vikings anyway? Ofc you might get the edge in the ground-battle, but still would that be enough?
I see you want to stay with Bio + some Fac units because of the time/ressources you have invested in the tech here, but if you could I just don't really know what P should do.
Hope that's not "treating you like a noob". It's meant more like a "noob asking pro for advice on how to understand/handle stuff". 
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On November 18 2010 21:14 Hopeless1der wrote:Thors have an upgrade. I suggest you upgrade it. Strike cannons tear apart basically anything. It locks down an enemy unit and prevents it from attacking. That means that the enemy unit is dealing less dps THAN AN OBSERVER. For toss to go heavy carrier, they either have no ground force or they only have 3-4 carriers. Either way, thors should eat those armies. Note that I suggest targeting the carrier in this situation and not a high templar or a zealot with the cannon. Just to be clear I present the following: 1) Select Thor 2) Target Carrier with Strike Cannon 3) ???? 4) Profit I'd find a replay, but I never see carriers except from the carrier rush daily. Also, i noticed you commented on losing 15 tanks to one carrier. Standard terran play generally has at least 2 vikings for sighting purposes to abuse the range. I realize that you're trying to steer clear of this, but its truly the strongest play available on 2 or less bases. Also, if you actually can get to 3 bases then you should have enough money to make vikings and tanks with thors thrown in. No upgrades though
Lol, don't try to discuss a unit based un bullshit.
What I feel Nadagast is trying to say is that Thors don't really need a buff for the sake of it being a better unit. It needs to do more damage versus armored air to make mech a viable unit composition in TvP so we don't all have to see endless bio-suiciding. Marine marauder is boring and unfulfilling.
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On November 18 2010 21:29 Seagull_ wrote:
He doesn't want another counter to armored air, he wants an attack priority change so he doesn't need to have 500apm just for microing the Thors in his army when there are armored air units out and about (the most common instance of this being Carriers in late-game PvT).
Most people don't get to late-game PvT and don't understand why this is a needed change so Nadagast looks a little crazy, but as the game progresses and strategies mature, carriers will likely see a lot more use vs mech terran in lategame (which is currently a very popular strategy amongst high level players)
He's suggesting more than that.
Also, you don't need anywhere near 500 APM for this.
Did you ever even play Broodwar?
Like where we needed to click on each individual high templar and then hit T and then click.
Or like where we had to click on each production building and then tell it what to make.
If we had to cast spells and build units by clicking on each individual caster/building back in BW and we did this with 200-300 APM (Broodwar APM not SC2 APM) then I think good terrans will be fine having to use a little extra micro to complete this task.
If you aren't fast enough to use thors when carriers are out, build vikings. Or you just aren't good enough to play at the level you currently are.
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On November 18 2010 21:37 CCow wrote:Just beeing curious, but if Thors were that much more effective against air (case A) how should a P react to you then probably going Bio + Thor against his armored air + probably some "typical" warpgate-stuff? And if Thors wouldn't target the armored air with such a high priority (case B), wouldn't you still need to get vikings anyway? Ofc you might get the edge in the ground-battle, but still would that be enough? I see you want to stay with Bio + some Fac units because of the time/ressources you have invested in the tech here, but if you could I just don't really know what P should do. Hope that's not "treating you like a noob". It's meant more like a "noob asking pro for advice on how to understand/handle stuff".
Probably the exact same normal composition as usual, except maybe adding in a few more Immortals. Thors aren't that great against Protoss ground later in the game (they're really only good against P ground super early game), so they would really only be there for anti-air.
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I think the AI fix maybe a decent solution. Giving thors a strong anti armored air is not.
They already have a strong ground attack and a devastating anti-light flyer attack. No need to make them strong anti-armored as well.
Also, pure zealots may beat pure thors (debatable), however more often than not , there are a host of units that accompany the thor, such as igniter hellions, or pure stimmed bio which decimate the protoss army while they try to focus the Thor down. In fact +1 thors two shot zealots IIRC.
The Thor fits its current role perfectly. Any buffs to its armored anti air capabilities would make it ridiculous for its cost.
IMO any buff to the terran late game should come through Siege tank buffs.
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If a protoss were to be able to get to a collosus/carrier/gateway units composition in the late game unscathed, it would be unbeatable. Luckily that's pretty much impossible.
You need 4 vikings per carrier to come out on top, and that means the vikings aren't shooting the collosi, marines get melted at that point so aren't a valid option, it's a scary composition! (but that's all in theory, don't let the toss get there ^^)
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On November 18 2010 21:29 Seagull_ wrote:
He doesn't want another counter to armored air, he wants an attack priority change so he doesn't need to have 500apm just for microing the Thors in his army when there are armored air units out and about (the most common instance of this being Carriers in late-game PvT).
Most people don't get to late-game PvT and don't understand why this is a needed change so Nadagast looks a little crazy, but as the game progresses and strategies mature, carriers will likely see a lot more use vs mech terran in lategame (which is currently a very popular strategy amongst high level players)
Like many people are saying, it doesn't take 500 APM. Probably doesn't even take 100 APM. Just queue a few targets in order of priority.
Also, I suppose I could conceive of a strategy where the Terran player goes Marine/Thor and makes an early(ish) push, and forces the Protoss player to go Void Rays to counter, but if that's the plan then in this specific instance the Terran player should not only be prepared for that, but expect it. Vikings should already queued in his Starport by the time the VR shows up so that he can maximize his one-two punch. That said, if it doesn't work then expect both sides to transition back into the normal play of MMM vs. Gateway + Colossi/HT.
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EPT
