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On November 18 2010 21:39 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 21:37 CCow wrote:Just beeing curious, but if Thors were that much more effective against air (case A) how should a P react to you then probably going Bio + Thor against his armored air + probably some "typical" warpgate-stuff? And if Thors wouldn't target the armored air with such a high priority (case B), wouldn't you still need to get vikings anyway? Ofc you might get the edge in the ground-battle, but still would that be enough? I see you want to stay with Bio + some Fac units because of the time/ressources you have invested in the tech here, but if you could I just don't really know what P should do. Hope that's not "treating you like a noob". It's meant more like a "noob asking pro for advice on how to understand/handle stuff".  Probably the exact same normal composition as usual, except maybe adding in a few more Immortals. Thors aren't that great against Protoss ground later in the game (they're really only good against P ground super early game), so they would really only be there for anti-air.
But, well...
You as a P can't "deny" the T from using his strike cannons anymore as you could with Feedback before. So the T can use it to quite some effect against your Immos. So you would really need quite a lot of Immos, wouldn't you?
Ofc, it's just my feeling telling me so. I might as well just be way off. xd
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while were at it, can't we just give thors 3000 HP, make them free to build. Give them anti everything and splash on the ground damage should be about 1000 a hit otherwise they feel weak.
Then all the poor terran troubles in the oooooohhhh so hard PvT match-ups are over.
ow and please give marines and scv' s the ability to morph in to thors for free.
wait what am i saying please don't make poor terrans build more then 1 unit!!!
Thors need to be build for free at the command center
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 18 2010 21:19 Nadagast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 21:13 X-Codes wrote:On November 18 2010 20:49 Nadagast wrote:For all the people replying telling me to simply build bio... I know. I am not saying that the matchup is imbalanced, I am saying that Thor's AA weakness limits Terran creativity. Unless you want to see Marine/Marauder/Ghost/Viking/Medivac against Protoss until the end of time, this is important. On November 18 2010 20:45 SwizzY wrote:
I didn't really realize that this was that big of an issue...
How many 200/200 vs 200/200 colliding balls of death between thors and carriers happen on the pro-level?...
I just feel like OP is tackling the whole argument incorrectly:
1) Thor AA should NOT be an end-all be-all solution to both armored AND light air. That's just OP
2) Instead of a+clicking and leaving it at that, I don't think its too much to consider manually making your thors target high value targets like HT/archons/colo (when applicable), and immortals.
I just don't know how to feel about this topic because its soooooooo situational. Closer to theorycrafting than anything. If Thors did more than 1 stimmed Marine's DPS vs armored air, you'd have already seen different things in this matchup. Serious Protoss players don't get armored air vs. Terran. I thought we've been over that already. Basing a substantial change to a unit because of one conditional situation that only happens in very low-level play on very rare occasion is extremely bad game design. That said, we're not going to see MMM w/ Ghost & Viking support until the end of time in TvP. We've got two expansions for SC 2 in the works, and who knows? Maybe one of these packs will bring back the Corsair, and said Corsair will own Vikings. Maybe there will be a new Goliath that is an effective ground-based counter to heavy air-assault units. Lots of things can happen, but it's not going to be any of your ideas. How would you know this? Are Inka and Socke not 'serious' Protoss players? Plenty of high level 'serious' Protoss players do get armored air if they get the chance, especially if you are using any strategy besides mass bio. I like how everyone is treating me like I'm a newb. Sigh.
Obviously this is bullshit, if I were you I wouldn't respond to people claiming toss doesn't use armored air vs terran - every protoss-player "eventually" gets it, the problem (as you correctly stated) is that armored air comes even AFTER templars are out. Most games end already BEFORE that point though.
This doesn't change the fact that in lategame many pro-tosses go carriers or void rays (I generally prefer going carriers because of the coolness - voids are a must on huge maps like shakuras for harass though).
I get your point completely - but I'm STILL convinced that the answer doesn't lie within the thor. The thor isn't meant to be useful vs armored air, hell, even the funny achievement-thingy tells you that you should use carriers vs thors (!). The fact that vikings don't "own" carriers/void rays is absolutely essential to make those units viable in the first place.
I once lost such a game (30+ minutes) with carriers because the terran managed to get EMPs off on my carriers and immediately sniped some of them with vikings. Don't underestimate the strength of EMPs used against air-units!
So I'd say in lategame you should use a combination of fully upgraded tanks and vikings, supported with ghosts and low (!) numbers of MM for meat.
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On November 18 2010 21:52 JDeathmetal wrote:
while were at it, can't we just give thors 3000 HP, make them free to build. Give them anti everything and splash on the ground, and please make them free.
Then all the poor terran troubles in the oooooohhhh so hard PvT match-ups are over.
ow and please give marines and scv' s the ability to morph in to thors for free
To be honest it has nothing to do with the actual Thor itself. It has to do with the fact that there's literally no good response to Protoss air, except for Marines. And that makes for a really stale matchup.
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On November 18 2010 21:52 JDeathmetal wrote:
while were at it, can't we just give thors 3000 HP, make them free to build. Give them anti everything and splash on the ground damage should be about 1000 a hit otherwise they feel weak.
Then all the poor terran troubles in the oooooohhhh so hard PvT match-ups are over.
ow and please give marines and scv' s the ability to morph in to thors for free.
wait what am i saying please don't make poor terrans build more then 1 unit!!!
Thors need to be build for free at the command center
What's your point? T_T
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1. Thors AA is fine were its at... maybe the A.I could use some fine tuning but the DPS is meant to be like that because of the splash damage.
2. You don't use vikings on the ground, at least you don't build them for that purpose unless your going to do some harassment drop.
3. I have never seen/heard of Terran's having issues with Carriers 2-3 bases in game.
Terran doesn't need buffs at all right now so stop QQing and practice harder.
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Aren't you just annoyed that you're thor play doesn't work against everything? Yes Thors are weak against armoured air, so we should nerf armored air! so there is nothing thors are weak against and you can always win by making thors. If they are going air, don't use thors it's that simple.
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On November 18 2010 21:54 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 21:52 JDeathmetal wrote:
while were at it, can't we just give thors 3000 HP, make them free to build. Give them anti everything and splash on the ground, and please make them free.
Then all the poor terran troubles in the oooooohhhh so hard PvT match-ups are over.
ow and please give marines and scv' s the ability to morph in to thors for free To be honest it has nothing to do with the actual Thor itself. It has to do with the fact that there's literally no good response to Protoss air, except for Marines. And that makes for a really stale matchup.
Can I ask you the thousand pro matchups where we see protoss air dominate everything of terran cause there is no anti? The OP wants to see that thors counter all air, which is bs.
Terran has enough anti air, I mean viking being the cheapest and strongest air unit, countering everything that toss can throw at them in the air.
I don't know how you can complain about this.
Indeed the match-up feels stale but thats not because protoss is so dominant in the air.
Only thing I agree at is that thors should not give armored air priority, but then again a little apm from the terran side shouldnt hurt. Something else then T A+Click
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Um, Wtf?
Ever heard of vikings? T has the best AA in the game, with their air-siege-tank aka the Viking.
Why not make Thors kill armored and remove broodlords from the game! Good idea.
TL needs an auto-lock policy about any thread in this forum with unit-imba qq thread title.
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Viking and Marine/Medic is all you need to fight Armored Protoss Air.
Thor AA is meant to deal with Phoenix.
Also, High Templar don't always come before Armored Air. Particularly if you had some kind of early-midgame Phoenix play (common versus MMM+Viking) and have left over Stargates, you can easily star producing Void Rays or (w/ added Fleet Beacon) Carriers.
Only time I'll ever get Storm before Air is if I'm fighting Battlecruisers, because, how else are you going to kill them?  Otherwise I get Storm after Air, because they'll switch their army composition to have more anti air, which gets destroyed by Storm (Vikings and Marine/Medivac)
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Splash damage against ground units can be balanced because there is a physical limit to cramming ground units together. Air splash damage can not, because ALL air units can occupy a single location.
The Thor's full splash damage mechanic is, frankly, ridiculous. It is not possible to balance a weapon with unlimited multiplying damage potential. Yes, bundling up your units should be a stupid move, but it should NOT make the difference in getting a 200 food army killed in 3 standard hits. Adding to the absurdity is the magic box. The entire splash potential of Thors can be nullified with a single movement order.
I think the Thor's anti air weapon needs to be reworked. If it's going to provide anti air swarm support, it can't be something so hit or miss.
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On November 18 2010 21:53 sleepingdog wrote:Obviously this is bullshit, if I were you I wouldn't respond to people claiming toss doesn't use armored air vs terran - every protoss-player "eventually" gets it, the problem (as you correctly stated) is that armored air comes even AFTER templars are out. Most games end already BEFORE that point though.
This doesn't change the fact that in lategame many pro-tosses go carriers or void rays (I generally prefer going carriers because of the coolness - voids are a must on huge maps like shakuras for harass though).
In this paragraph, most means pretty much every single game I've seen. I was exaggerating a little, and I know there are uses for Void Rays outside of the main army, but I see no purpose for carriers other than to mess with the AI against people who don't micro their thors, and if there are Vikings already in play because of Colossi being used to counter Bio, it won't last long enough to be that useful.
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Now that i think of it...hmm...I think people just haven't had a reason to investigate mech deeply. especially since most maps aren't mech favored due to the fact that FE(Real FE like 1 rax Expand or 14 CC) isn't that viable at the moment. Plus with back doors its just not gonna happen.
Technically what protoss needs to invest inorder to make the Terran crap his pants can be dealt with using lower amounts of resources.Example 1/2 ghost can deal with all immortals. And 5-10 vikings can deal with all Protoss Air. The fear of drops is countered by Sensor Towers. And Basic Chargelot and Stalker Blink is dealt with by basic micro(Unsieging some tanks. Spreading Tanks appart, and microing hellions).
The issue lies in the fact that people want to turtle hard when they mech. This allows Protoss to make what ever they want(and as much as they want) and thus win because they are ahead in bases. MECH MUST HARASS COUNITIOUSLY. Most likely through Hellion Drops and Run-bys. And be active about it.
MECH DOES NOT REQUIRE MULES. Mech is gas intensive. YOu'll ahve plenty of minerals. Thus you should concentrate on scanning and scouting in orde to detect transiotions. Then you can 1) Counter or 1) Kill him for transitioning to drastically.
Real Balence Changes Needed-IMHO
The only thing i think needs SOME love is the tank. amybe 100 gas or a little more dmg. And immortals should be 125 gas but less minerals.200/125-This way they cant be double pumped off of 1 base. Which is redicoulous IMHO. And Chrono boosted Voids come in so fast its hard to detect the transiotion at times.
The Real reason Mech isn't viable is because of BLIZZARD maps.
1)Hard to secure natural-Most Naturals are open which means Protoss can 4gate you FTW. 
2)Back Doors.
3)Predictable Map design. Pretty much 1 main attack path unlike BW Kespa maps. This KILLS hellion run-bys.
4) Lack of accesible Thirds. Stupid Rocks.
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On November 18 2010 21:54 Angra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 21:52 JDeathmetal wrote:
while were at it, can't we just give thors 3000 HP, make them free to build. Give them anti everything and splash on the ground, and please make them free.
Then all the poor terran troubles in the oooooohhhh so hard PvT match-ups are over.
ow and please give marines and scv' s the ability to morph in to thors for free To be honest it has nothing to do with the actual Thor itself. It has to do with the fact that there's literally no good response to Protoss air, except for Marines. And that makes for a really stale matchup.
oh dear and i have to build like banelings in all zvts. How will i ever live that down? Oh noes
And another thing i dont think thors do less dps then marines.
And even if it did marine is one of the best DPS units in game, as JD pointed out, you want 3000 hp with that too?
Such a dissapointing thread to see from someone high level.
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On November 18 2010 20:32 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
right.. show me replays because serriousley this feels like somone wanting thor to be anti all god unit.
Yeah. I also think that the fact that Terran now has even the option to use thors against protoss is diversity enough. The patch hasn't been out long enough to really gauge the extent of their viability either.
If you increase their AA damage you have to take away their splash and that's going to have drastic ripple effects in 2 other matchups. I don't think it's worth it.
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Wow, I can't believe how stubborn the responses are in this thread. Nadagast has a point. Listen to him before blindly questioning what he's trying to point out. Each thor does insane dmg vs ground so you have to basically manually target every single one of your thors if the protoss has any kind of armored air or you're turning your 500 resource unit into one comparable to a marine in terms of dps (50 resource unit). That requires a insane amount apm to do if you have multiple thors. That's clearly an unintended side effect of thors anti-air priority and I expect it to be patched soon because it only makes the game more one dimensional.
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Once game goes to late game bio just melts to collusi+storm so hard it's not even funny. Tell me to go mech? Toss add's on 2 stargates and voids rape your army. At that point marines just mnelt without doing damage. Even if you're on 30 reactored barracks they'll insta-die.
Vikings? Vikings lose to void rays. Find the thread about GooDys mech versus SocKe. The voids will have ups that terran most probably won't (get upgrades? that's third tech path. I'll get them, but only later so I'll be behind). Win the air-battle? LOL as your 10 vikings left over just die when they try to land.
Argue that toss can't have everything? By late game you can easily have collsui+templar+voidrays (collusi+temps hold bio, toss sees mech switch and adds voids when terran switches). And a good amount of them. Once collusi reach a god amount (6ish) it takes so many vikings to kill the collusi before they rape your bio. So you switch to mech and lose to air. Tell me to drop everywhere and EMP? EMP's radius is LESS then the splash animation. Put a few cannons at each expo and you can hold most drops (cannons old off till warpins).
By NO means a QQ post. Terran early game seems pretty strong against toss (until Protoss learn to forcefield well like TesteR). But late game is mostly Terran gg unless Toss fucks it up.
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Nadagast you're absolutely correct. The people disagreeing with you don't seem to understand the issue with Thor attack priority. Mixing in a single carrier, or even void ray with your ground army, completely nullifies Thor's normally high DPS. It is far too hard a counter. Fixing this issue would make TvP considerably more interesting as we'd see a lot more late game-oriented play.
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On November 18 2010 19:33 Nadagast wrote:
Change Thor anti-air damage to be 12x4, or 24x2 instead of 6+6lightx4.
You want thor to become anti air monster + remain good anti ground. It just wont happen no matter how broken the mu is in anyones opinion, even if its blizzard. On the other hand since when going carriers is imba? I use them sometimes but believe me: the game is already won at that point I just need a sureproof way to finish it. You probably turtle too much and than he rolls over you with superior tech and army.
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On November 18 2010 22:26 sandroba wrote:
Wow, I can't believe how stubborn the responses are in this thread. Nadagast has a point. Listen to him before blindly questioning what he's trying to point out. Each thor does insane dmg vs ground so you have to basically manually target every single one of your thors if the protoss has any kind of armored air or you're turning your 500 resource unit into one comparable to a marine in terms of dps (50 resource unit). That requires a insane amount apm to do if you have multiple thors. That's clearly an unintended side effect of thors anti-air priority and I expect it to be patched soon because it only makes the game more one dimensional.
I don't quite understand how it takes such insane apm?
Ctrl+ left click on thor (select all thors)
Shift + A-click on the units you want it to attack
Depending on how many thors you have Shift and left click on portraits to lessen your selection and tell those thors to attack new targes to lessen overkill.
non?
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EPT
