EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 83
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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sqrt
1210 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:08 Leeoku wrote: i thought protoss is more supreme in the late late game (TvP) and in the mid game vs z Remove the Colossi from the equasion and P is rock bottom. | ||
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spacemonkeyy
Australia477 Posts
and the only reason Terran say that is because collosus ruins their MMM which it should, now a lot of terrans are using thor, raven, ghost, viking etc. which they should to beat toss tier 3 and are not having as much of a problem. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
On November 12 2010 08:43 Moragon wrote: That bothers you but not that charge costs 200/200 and concussive shells costs 50/50? That concussive shells requires a 50/25 swapable add on and charge requires a 150/100 building? No those bother me more but the subject was timings. If I had to rank them in order it would be 1. Cost 2. Time 3. Separate building that is good for nothing. | ||
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tangwhat
New Zealand446 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:13 sqrt wrote: Remove the Colossi from the equasion and P is rock bottom. Hint: High templar | ||
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spacemonkeyy
Australia477 Posts
High templar only decent really against bio- or tier 1 have you hardly a unit to rely on. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
Watch Jinro vs Socke to see how easy it is for Terran to remove HT from the equation. | ||
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tangwhat
New Zealand446 Posts
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xAPOCALYPSEx
1418 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:35 tangwhat wrote: Because mutas, hydras and infestors are tier 1. Think he was talking about TvP, in which case I would agree with him. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:35 tangwhat wrote: Because mutas, hydras and infestors are tier 1. Because mutas are countered by storm oh wait... Because hydras are countered by storms oh wait (maybe when they're off creep)... I'll give you infestors (unless you're Idra and you neural parasite a HT like its nbd) | ||
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tangwhat
New Zealand446 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:40 Risen wrote: Because mutas are countered by storm oh wait... Because hydras are countered by storms oh wait (maybe when they're off creep)... I'll give you infestors (unless you're Idra and you neural parasite a HT like its nbd) Yeah actually the last thing I want is for my mutas to be hit by storm and so they effectively relieve pressure off of you and makes my harass based techniques not as effective. And you can still storm effectively on hydras on creep you just need to not be a tard and learn how where to storm? | ||
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spacemonkeyy
Australia477 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:47 tangwhat wrote: Yeah actually the last thing I want is for my mutas to be hit by storm and so they effectively relieve pressure off of you and makes my harass based techniques not as effective. And you can still storm effectively on hydras on creep you just need to not be a tard and learn how where to storm? I was more talking about PVT in regards to HT's and tier 1, I agree HT's are a good option vs zerg for more than T1 but then again so are collosus (except against Mutas- then again >5 mutas is like the most annoying thing in the world to a toss player) | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
People saying Protoss would suck without colossi... wtf is ur point? People saying High Templar aren't good, which is just a bad joke. And have you seen how good storm is against tanks for example? It's not ONLY useful against bio, I mean mech can't even run away from storms they're too damn slow. The ridiculous QQ on the forums lately really just makes me so sad. | ||
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RailGuN
Singapore73 Posts
On November 12 2010 14:02 Subversion wrote: Lol this thread has become so inane. People saying Protoss would suck without colossi... wtf is ur point? People saying High Templar aren't good, which is just a bad joke. And have you seen how good storm is against tanks for example? It's not ONLY useful against bio, I mean mech can't even run away from storms they're too damn slow. The ridiculous QQ on the forums lately really just makes me so sad. It's not that High Templar aren't good, in fact they're ridiculously good, even almost imbalanced, dare I say, with Khaydarian Amulet upgraded. However it also takes a ridiculous amount of time and resources to get them, that's where the problem is. Colossi are almost required to get protoss pass the midgame and let toss safely tech to templar, since fighting bio armies without any kind of aoe damage is a nightmare. And yeah sure, you could argue good force fields will win you the battle, but usually it'll take a considerable amount of forcefields and that either means, getting sentries really early and not letting them die, or getting more sentries which cut into your tech. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On November 11 2010 07:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: NexGenius qualified through a tournament in Korea which had a lot of top level GSL players. This tournament was super important and everybody took it as serious as the GSL. The point is not that because Protoss outside of Korea do well and thus that they should do well inside Korea too, not at all. But that both the foreign scene and the Korean scene can be seen as independent from each other. If you are arguing imbalance then you are implying TT1, Socke and Huk somehow learned faster than their Zerg/Terran peers in the foreign scene, and were able to win tournaments because of this. Saying that tourney results are influenced this much by the individual skill of these players could also mean that the Zergs/Terrans in Korea may have learned faster than their Protoss peers. Bottom line is it is too early to use statistics are they are meaningless. Protoss players in the GSL are simply not playing as well as their peers. Given time I'm very confident that NexGenius, Inca and Minchul are good enough to perform better in the GSL but that so far they simply have not played up to their own level in it. Especially MinChul has choked pretty hard. Let me give you a real statistic though, one that is not decided by a few bo3s, over thousands of games MinChul leads the oGs/Liquid ranking nearly every week. If NexGenius had gotten to the final of GSL2 nobody here would raise their voice. To show you how thin that makes your argument: NexGenius was 2-3 matches away from removing all your balance issues. You can't seriously use these GSL's and think they mean anything statistically. All great points, but may I ask your opinion on patch 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 then? I mean, you could use all your statistics you used here, i.e. "top Zergs made blunders", "the Zerg has to play better", "Fruitdealer actually won GSL, what you are talking about Zerg being weak?" etc. Yet, they buffed the Zerg and it was because it was right. Yes, Protoss are going out because of their mistakes, but that's the thing. Like earlier with the Zerg, one mistake and you are out. One mistake with a forcefield, OUT. Before, Zerg had to defend the early harass, and one mistake while defending, you are OUT. It is clear, that Protoss has no harass units, how would you answer that question? It is clear, that Protoss doesn't have varied strategies, and has very little variation available. Can you tell your opinion on this issue? I see no difference between Zerg whining before patches 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 and protoss whining now, both in Korea and in other countries. Your points look valid, but you could make tons of similar points for the Zerg before the patch, IMO. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
On November 12 2010 14:28 Xxavi wrote: All great points, but may I ask your opinion on patch 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 then? I mean, you could use all your statistics you used here, i.e. "top Zergs made blunders", "the Zerg has to play better", "Fruitdealer actually won GSL, what you are talking about Zerg being weak?" etc. Yet, they buffed the Zerg and it was because it was right. Yes, Protoss are going out because of their mistakes, but that's the thing. Like earlier with the Zerg, one mistake and you are out. One mistake with a forcefield, OUT. Before, Zerg had to defend the early harass, and one mistake while defending, you are OUT. It is clear, that Protoss has no harass units, how would you answer that question? It is clear, that Protoss doesn't have varied strategies, and has very little variation available. Can you tell your opinion on this issue? I see no difference between Zerg whining before patches 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 and protoss whining now, both in Korea and in other countries. Your points look valid, but you could make tons of similar points for the Zerg before the patch, IMO. The difference was Toss was/is winning tournaments while zerg had almost none to their name before GSL 1. Even post buff Zerg is about equal with toss on tourament success, trailing terran. | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:35 Grond wrote: Watch Jinro vs Socke to see how easy it is for Terran to remove HT from the equation. That was actually not an easy game....at all. The only problem with HT is finding a window to tech up to them and not die. When Socke had HTs that saved him from losing the game (besides ripping bio, storm drops on the mineral lines) and is the reason why the match lasted until most of them were mined out. Yeah Ghosts can outrange HTs, but there are (and were in that match) so many other factors that do not allow you to concentrate on microing the EMP (I believe at some point in there were colossus plus HTs), also I still believe just spreading HTs and not clumping together would solve...a lot of problems. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
What Protoss have is expensive units which you have to save to survive. If you micro them not well, you are done. Is micro that important for Zerg mass armies? Most of time, not nearly as important. Same goes for Terran. This leaves no room for mistake, because every mistake is damn costly. And I also would like Pro's on here to compare Protoss in SC:BW and in SC2. Because in Broodwar, you had arbiter with abilities, and you could play that game. You had reaver harass. Carriers were viable in some games. DTs were easier and cheaper to get. HTs were better, Archons were better etc. Those units were more expensive than other races back then as well, but at least it was cheaper than now. In SC2, they are not there, or they are even more costly. You cannot make a mistake in SC2 as a protoss it seems right now. And your strategy is limited. If you try something new, you will end up paying dearly, like oGsMC, and people will say "he choked". So "not choking" is just using the same "safe" 2-4 strategies that we keep seeing from every protoss players. PS Talking about HTs, there's something now called Ghost for Terran, which wasn't there in BW. | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
On November 12 2010 14:37 Xxavi wrote: What Protoss have is expensive units which you have to save to survive. If you micro them not well, you are done. Is micro that important for Zerg mass armies? Most of time, not nearly as important. Same goes for Terran. This leaves no room for mistake, because every mistake is damn costly. LOL protoss more micro than terran? rofl.. Terran requires the most micro, remember that. The only micro protoss really has to do is storm/forcefield/blink micro and controlling zealots well. ITs not even hard micro too. Terran, you gotta frekin emp micro, stim micro, drop micro, raven micro, siege tank micro, even microing the frekin scan, its almost frekin ridiculous, especially when you accidently add that 1 ghost to your frekin bio ball army and you try to stim but it just doesnt work because the ghost's abilities overides it then your army gets fuc**d | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On November 12 2010 14:32 Bull-Demon wrote: The difference was Toss was/is winning tournaments while zerg had almost none to their name before GSL 1. Even post buff Zerg is about equal with toss on tourament success, trailing terran. Oh come on, you cannot take team games or other things seriously. Yes, oGsMC destroyed the other team by himself, yes, there were tiny tournaments, and yes, outside of Korea they aren't doing bad. But the real deal is going on in Korea. And even outside Korea, the variety in units is so flat among top Protoss, it's unbelievable. I am yet to see a good warp prism play. It's either HTs or Colossi 90% of time, or early rushes like blink stalkers. Defending is always about sentries. Very limited. Don't make it sound that Zerg was a none-factor before the patch. Even in GSL1, Zerg performed better than Protoss. | ||
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