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Moragon
United States355 Posts
On November 12 2010 03:11 Grond wrote: A couple timings that make no sense to me are Charge 140 seconds, Concussive Shells 60 seconds. That bothers you but not that charge costs 200/200 and concussive shells costs 50/50? That concussive shells requires a 50/25 swapable add on and charge requires a 150/100 building? | ||
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xinxy
Canada116 Posts
On November 12 2010 08:43 Moragon wrote: That bothers you but not that charge costs 200/200 and concussive shells costs 50/50? That concussive shells requires a 50/25 swapable add on and charge requires a 150/100 building? To be fair, while tech labs are cheap, a Terran needs several of them to produce many marauders at once while to get charge on every zealot you only need ONE twilight council and even then once charge is done that building can be destroyed and you can continue making zealots with charge. If Terran starts losing his tech labs he can't make marauders which essentially also invalidates the concussive shells upgrade. I do think the charge upgrade time is a bit too long but you don't do a one to one comparison with concussive shells and call that balance discussion... imo of course. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
Anyone know if Tester has been playing terran for awhile, or did he just switch this week? hmm. | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On November 12 2010 08:58 Skyze wrote: so correct me if im wrong, but did Tester just dominate his clan league as terran?? Beating Sangho in finals? Anyone know if Tester has been playing terran for awhile, or did he just switch this week? hmm. According to Cool, Tester played both Terran and Protoss at a very high level before he chose to stick with toss during beta. | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 12 2010 08:04 blackbrrd wrote: This doesn't take into account that the probe doesn't go away, so the effect is compounded. Yes it does, L2Read. However I was wrong with 1 parts of my calculations, as I assumed that the energy gain of structures/units was 1 energy per game second and its not, its 0.5625. So to correct my calculations I now have to divide my old answer by the actual energy generation rate. 300 / 0.5625 = 533.333333 Yes, thats right people. 8 Minutes and 53 seconds of pure chronoboosting on the probes to get the 6 probe lead that a mule being alive is worth. However this was a quick estimate but since the energy rate is almost 1/2 what I thought it was, lets get the exact answer. Heres the calculations so you can see for yourself. Lets explore the wonders of how shit chronoboost is. Chronoboost duration = 20 seconds Chronoboost function = speed up by 50% = divide by 1.5 To find out how much of a benefit Chronoboost should grant something, multiply its duration by its effect. Thus 20*0.5 = 10. A Single Chronoboost over time will equate to 10 seconds of gametime saved. Lets check this is right by working out probe buildtimes. Probe buildtime = 17 seconds Chono probe = 11.33333 seconds To consume a whole chronoboost you need 2 probes, which provided you do a second chrono the moment the first 1 finishes (not possible really, energy is spent faster than gotten) then it would take 22.66666 seconds. However since the last 2.6666 seconds are not chronoboosted we slow it down by 50% (or *1.5) which makes our answer the following. 20+(2.6666*1.5) = 23.999999 or to make things easier, lets just say 24. A single chronoboost on 2 probes will take 24 seconds, 10 less than other races which holds true to the previous calculations. Since probes take 17 seconds to build that means for every 2 chronoboost used on probes, you have 1 extra out compared to Terran with 3 seconds off the next one. Since the existence of mules is worth 6 Probes our goal for this set of calculations is to get 6 probes ahead, or to shave off 17*6 seconds, or 102 seconds. This requires 11 Chronoboosts. overall. Now heres the fun bit. (25 / 0.5625) * 11 = 488.888889 To get 1 chronoboost worth of energy requires 44.4444444 seconds of gametime, 11 of them requires 489 seconds of gametime or 8 minutes 9 seconds So there you have it. It takes 8 minutes of pure chornoboosting on the probes to get an economic gain equal to a mule being summoned. This is not taking into account that mules do not effect saturation, are free to summon and cost 0 minerals. Obviously a mule is better than 6 probes hence even once Protoss is 6 workers ahead, they are still behind compared to the terrans ability to mule. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
Once you're playing against Zerg players who can anticipate your timing pushes or Terran player who can dodge storm and spread effectively their units against colossi, you're pretty much fucked because there are not too much things you can significantly improve as a high level diamond player Protoss unless you go mass stalkers/blink where you can show off your micro skills. Also, it's a pity that Protoss is always kind of forced to blindly camp with sentries at the beginning of the game, the game has been balanced this way but I think it's bullshit... | ||
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Teddyman
Finland362 Posts
Mules are as effective as slightly less than 4 or 3.5 SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch). Better do that math again. | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
Math is correct. To quote the SCII Liquidpedia Despite their timed life and Orbital Command energy cost, a MULE has several advantages over an SCV: a MULE costs no supply. MULEs have a mining time 2.05x longer than an SCV, but have the same movement speed and acceleration. MULEs carry 6 times more minerals per trip than an SCV, gathering 30 minerals per trip on standard patches and 42 on High-Yield patches. Their timed life allows 8 or 9 mining trips which totals 240/270 minerals respectively on a blue mineral patch and 336/378 on a yellow one. This works out to 160/180 and 224/252 minerals per game-minute respectively. Also, MULEs can mine over other SCVs. Mules are as effective as slightly less than 4 or 4.5 SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch). Because it can mine over other scv that is +1 scv you will have on a patch as the mule is not blocking it so that 4.5 becomes a 5.5 which rounded up is 6. Next time kid if you want to be a smartass at least read the correct wiki. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Teddyman
Finland362 Posts
On November 12 2010 09:17 Chronicle wrote: Math is correct. To quote the SCII Liquidpedia Because it can mine over other scv that is +1 scv you will have on a patch as the mule is not blocking it so that 4.5 becomes a 5.5 which rounded up is 6. Next time kid if you want to be a smartass at least read the correct wiki. Are you suggesting I read about the MULE on the BW wiki? Your paste even includes why you are wrong: MULEs have a mining time 2.05x longer than an SCV | ||
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afirlortwo
United States161 Posts
tldr; Balancing solely on win/loss rates for a set of games is far too susceptible to noise from unaccounted for factors, such as map design | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On November 12 2010 09:17 Chronicle wrote: Because it can mine over other scv that is +1 scv you will have on a patch as the mule is not blocking it so that 4.5 becomes a 5.5 which rounded up is 6. Next time kid if you want to be a smartass at least read the correct wiki. This is terrible. There's no reason to go around insulting other posters, especially when he is correctly pointing out a problem with your calculations. You are counting an SCV's gathering contribution twice here, which suggests you have a very poor understanding of the mathematics involved. Nor is there any need for the rounding, particularly when you are using fractional values for the time advantage given by chronoboost in the same calculation. You were also quite rude to a previous poster who pointed out another problem with your work, regarding the limited lifespan of the mule. By calculating the number of extra probes that must be produced to equal the output of a mule, you are actually finding the number of chronoboosts needed to equal not one mule, but instead continuous mule usage. This is roughly equivalent to the maximum benefit of a single OC over the duration of an entire game, assuming no scans or supply calldowns. | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 12 2010 09:25 Teddyman wrote: Are you suggesting I read about the MULE on the BW wiki? Your paste even includes why you are wrong: Your not too bright it seems. Its 2.05x longer than 1 scv mining, a Mule can carry 6x what an scv can. Thus 1 Mule on a patch with an scv on it to is equal to 7 workers mining that mineral field. Are you even reading the wiki I quoted? Hell are you even reading anything? I repost so your feeble mind can comprehend. Mules are as effective as slightly less than 4 or 4.5 SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch). Taking into account the bonus saturation of 1 scv its 5.5 rounded up to 6. Even if I did not round up to 6 and used 5.5 the answer is still 8 minutes. On November 12 2010 09:46 Jumbled wrote: This is terrible. There's no reason to go around insulting other posters, especially when he is correctly pointing out a problem with your calculations. You are counting an SCV's gathering contribution twice here, which suggests you have a very poor understanding of the mathematics involved. Nor is there any need for the rounding, particularly when you are using fractional values for the time advantage given by chronoboost in the same calculation. You were also quite rude to a previous poster who pointed out another problem with your work, regarding the limited lifespan of the mule. By calculating the number of extra probes that must be produced to equal the output of a mule, you are actually finding the number of chronoboosts needed to equal not one mule, but instead continuous mule usage. This is actually greater than the maximum benefit of a single OC over the duration of an entire game, as its energy does not regenerate fast enough to run a MULE continuously. Just bolding so I can explain how wrong you are. 1 mule = 50 energy Energy Rate = 0.5625 Mule duration = 90 seconds. Time to get 50 energy on an OC 50/0.5625 = 88.8888889 seconds. 1.1 seconds faster than a Mules Duration. Yes you can mule continuously and yes the calculations are against "how soon is the Protoss probe numbers chronoed equal to terran scv count+continuous mules?" of which the answer is around 8 minutes per continuous mule. Now please stop being stupid. | ||
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AidanS
39 Posts
If chronoboost was a strong economic advantage (and it isn't really as we can see) they would have to readjust how protoss builds structures. Protoss are always going to be a nightmare to balance because the warp in and chronoboost mechanics have the potential to alter tech speed independent of minerals/gas/build time and rush/reinforcement distance independent of map size. Force fields give a terrain advantage (largely) independent of map. Bliz probably decided the only way to make this work is to limit this potential as much as possible, which ends up with the potentially fantastic mechanics feeling a little bland. To make these mechanics less significant Blizz gave long ass tech times and made warped in units fairly weak (bar the HT) and balanced early game on the assumption that you can use Force fields to survive. Given all this, Bliz has done a great job in keeping it as balanced as it is. My complaint is that it has limited the variety of play too much and made splash and super FF too essential. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On November 12 2010 08:58 Skyze wrote: so correct me if im wrong, but did Tester just dominate his clan league as terran?? Beating Sangho in finals? Anyone know if Tester has been playing terran for awhile, or did he just switch this week? hmm. Link pls. | ||
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m40
11 Posts
On November 12 2010 09:47 Chronicle wrote: Your not too bright Oh the irony. | ||
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sqrt
1210 Posts
It's a joke...it has to be... If sSKS isn't playing as P, than we might as well forget about seeing a Protoss in GSL until Bisu switches. | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On November 12 2010 12:11 sqrt wrote: It's a joke...it has to be... If sSKS isn't playing as P, than we might as well forget about seeing a Protoss in GSL until Bisu switches. He has played terran for fun/practice before, he is quite good at it. Right now he is still sticking with protoss until told otherwise, but he played terran vs sangho because terran has a huge advantage and he knows protoss thoroughly so it is easy for him to abuse terran. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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spacemonkeyy
Australia477 Posts
On November 12 2010 09:47 Chronicle wrote: Your not too bright it seems. Its 2.05x longer than 1 scv mining, a Mule can carry 6x what an scv can. Thus 1 Mule on a patch with an scv on it to is equal to 7 workers mining that mineral field. Are you even reading the wiki I quoted? Hell are you even reading anything? I repost so your feeble mind can comprehend. Taking into account the bonus saturation of 1 scv its 5.5 rounded up to 6. Even if I did not round up to 6 and used 5.5 the answer is still 8 minutes. Just bolding so I can explain how wrong you are. 1 mule = 50 energy Energy Rate = 0.5625 Mule duration = 90 seconds. Time to get 50 energy on an OC 50/0.5625 = 88.8888889 seconds. 1.1 seconds faster than a Mules Duration. Yes you can mule continuously and yes the calculations are against "how soon is the Protoss probe numbers chronoed equal to terran scv count+continuous mules?" of which the answer is around 8 minutes per continuous mule. Now please stop being stupid. When you take into account that during orbital command building no scv production can occur and also that terran needs to actually build every building puts terran at a slight early game disadvantage. Once you got orbital command up by the time you call down 1 or 2 mules its around the 7 minute mark (guessing) giving the advantage back to terran. Once the game hits 8 minutes protoss should be 6 probes ahead by your own logic and constantly muleing is ~ equal to harvester count + 6 (using your logic). But at the 8 minute mark the protoss harvester count should be + 6 of that of the terran anyway - otherwise equal. If the protoss continues to chrono for another 8 minutes he will be + 12 of that of a terran and the terran will still be on harvester count + 6. Point being that chrono stacks, muleing does not. Obviously other factors come into play as after the 10-11 minute mark most people are thinking of 2nd bases and also mules can mine on top of SCV's so they are of benefit even to a saturated base (which IMO is more of an issue), for me mules are more of an issue being able to be called down to repair, able to rejuvinate an economy after scvs are killed off and also the terran gets other functions such as the scan and depot call down. I rarely go HT's because they take so much skill to make work, skipping robo is potentially gg. You need so many buildings and upgrades to even get them to a point where they are half functional (without amulet) you pretty much need 2 base + to make them work and then you gotta rely on your micro and landing those storms. At the same time you could just mass collosus which take less micro, you can get earlier and lets you get obs. I have always thought why should terran (or zerg for that matter) be able to upgrade their tier 1 so much earlier with essentially no extra buildings while toss needs extra buildings, triple the cost, over twice as long to complete and and by getting them without robo you are seriously risking it. I would like to see charge get moved to the cyber core, move psi storms to the citadel with blink so u can research psi storms whilst building templar archives. The only real reason people need to get robo is vs banshees (mainly/dt's), i.e basically for detection. Personally I think banshees are IMBA, they are like DT's but with range, they can fly, and are quicker to get and you don't take a massive risk teching to them like DT's. I would like to see banshee cloak delayed in one form or another (I.e through the fusion core or simply just a longer research time). Currently the time it takes to get a banshee is the main restrictor on protoss play + the stargate technology being quite finicky to use. | ||
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