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zomgad
185 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:01 HuHEN wrote: What about the GSL? That was mostly TvZs and look what we ended up with, 3 terran in the top 4. what? most of good zergs were eliminated on zvz i cba to search but i remember statistics of tvz matchup in gsl2 and it was very Z favored, ps. btw i never said tvz is imbalanced just said that such a small change like barrak after supply had a such huge impact on tvz | ||
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
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Boundless
Canada588 Posts
Protoss wins vs Terran 49.6% of the time in Diamond league. All of these 75 pages are full of posts complaining about a 0.04% imbalance? Wow, you people have no knowledge of statistics. User was warned for this post | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:59 Protoss_Carrier wrote: Do you guys think a blink upgrade for DT would help? or maybe have blink comes with DT and void prison (stasis for one unit) an upgradable ability? No. the last thing Protoss needs is changing the actual units (cept the Mothership). Last thing Protoss needs now is throwing in more expensive techs ontop of expensive tech that is already not safe viable option. Even if DT's could blink, it would still be moot as it is scouted all the same. A Starport can become a Banshee producer at anytime, or fund drops of death. A Dark Shrine is.... A Dark Shrine...... Only DT's. What would be a good starting point to fixing Protoss is. -Remove the Twilight Council from the game -Make Templar Archives the new Twilight Council, have it require a Dark Shrine. Techpath is now DarkShrine (DT) -> Templar Archives (HT) -Nerf DT so they are visible while they are attacking. -Make an "enhanced Cloak" upgrade for DT from the Dark Shrine to allow them to stay invisible when attacking (same as current DT). -Allow HT's to start with Psi Storm -Make "Archon Morph" a Templar Upgrade on Templar Archives -Put Charge on the Cybernetics Core. -Put Blink on the Dark Shrine. Tada. Edit - fixed wording. | ||
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:23 Boundless wrote: I'm sorry, but we need to back up. Protoss wins vs Terran 49.6% of the time in Diamond league. All of these 75 pages are full of posts complaining about a 0.04% imbalance? Wow, you people have no knowledge of statistics. And you have no knowledge of balance, who cares if low diamond is fair, they are playing so far from up to the potential of their race its not even funny. | ||
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cangiz
Canada286 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:23 Boundless wrote: I'm sorry, but we need to back up. Protoss wins vs Terran 49.6% of the time in Diamond league. All of these 75 pages are full of posts complaining about a 0.04% imbalance? Wow, you people have no knowledge of statistics. Umm you obviously dont understand the matchmaking system if you think you can use these as facts to whether somehting is imbalanced. | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:23 Boundless wrote: I'm sorry, but we need to back up. Protoss wins vs Terran 49.6% of the time in Diamond league. All of these 75 pages are full of posts complaining about a 0.04% imbalance? Wow, you people have no knowledge of statistics. the OP is about lack of protoss in RO4 twice in GSL. I think that's more than a 95% confidence interval away if the null hypothesis (all three race perfectly balanced) is true. Also, a 0.04% imbalance can be statistically significant depends on sample size. Perhaps study some stats? | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. Well the statistics do not really agree here. I think that the thread is too much about imbalance though. It would be more important to make protoss more flexible. Perhaps there is a reason protoss players make mistakes? I am nearing the 2000 diamond playing as random (but I prefer toss), and protoss requires a lot of micro. It's also very tight. One small mistake can cost you the game, while the other races require less of this core micro. Their armies function a lot better with slightly worse micro. There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. My suggestion would be to make the game a bit more flexible, observatory after core for 100/50 and a cheap 1st observer like I said before. Besides that a buff to gateway units and a nerf to force fields. This way FF can be used to support. It will still be useful and required if your army is larger, but it will make the toss army in small numbers (where you can' t use FF effectively) more effective. | ||
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EntertainMe
864 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote: Perhaps there is a reason protoss players make mistakes? I am nearing the 2000 diamond playing as random (but I prefer toss), and protoss requires a lot of micro. It's also very tight. One small mistake can cost you the game, while the other races require less of this core micro. Their armies function a lot better with slightly worse micro. There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. There was a time in SC:BW history when Defilers were unusable due to insane amount of needed care and delicacy. Thus, the fall of Zergs. Yet, a SaviOr came with perfect usuage of defiler, so be it attack or defense. And now all zergs have to use defiler to perfection and they do. If its just matter of playing sentries to the perfection to abuse its capability, then the problem will fix by itself as time goes imo. + Show Spoiler + But only in pro lvl. which is reasonable response since this thread is solely about GSL. Edit: On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. I stole your blink stalker build ^^; We(toss) need more diversity in our all ins. Gogo! Build us more creative builds! Fighting~ | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. Same can be said about zerg pre-patch, but they sure as hell complained en masse hence current patch. Reason balance is not noticeable is because every single protoss does the same damn thing unit wise in every single match up. Gateway units, into robo units, into high templar if the game gets that far. Nothing else is used. When something is no longer used there is no balance issue with it, See Reaper. However games are won vs Protoss when they "have" to get units outside of their standard gate-robo pattern, EG - Void rays/Carriers because they are not up to par in viability compared to what Terran/Zerg have. Protoss suffer from "Beta Ultralisk" Syndrome but on a broader scale, and it needs sorting. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote: Well the statistics do not really agree here. While the rest of your post I thought was quite good I just can't help cringing at this. How do the statistics have any say in the actual ingame performances? | ||
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gray-fox
Finland62 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote: There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. My suggestion would be to make the game a bit more flexible, observatory after core for 100/50 and a cheap 1st observer like I said before. Besides that a buff to gateway units and a nerf to force fields. This way FF can be used to support. It will still be useful and required if your army is larger, but it will make the toss army in small numbers (where you can' t use FF effectively) more effective. How would you nerf force fields seriously? And if gateway units are buffed they will destroy everything. It really seems you don't have a clue about balancing the game. Can't use force fields in small numbers? Not true. Forcefielding zerg's ramp while killing his natural? Using force fields effectively in small chokes? Is that impossibility early game? Where would an observer spawn if a robo wasn't required? From a gateway? I just feels stupid. If you need detection you can just warp good amount of observers instantly. Poor idea. Good example how stupid can 2000+ diamond player be. I have to agree with nazgul, most protosses in gsl 2 just played horribly. Not enough skill to make it into round of 4. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
You will probably need a boost to toss's units to balance for the loss of FF's effectiveness. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On November 11 2010 06:11 gray-fox wrote: How would you nerf force fields seriously? And if gateway units are buffed they will destroy everything. It really seems you don't have a clue about balancing the game. Can't use force fields in small numbers? Not true. Forcefielding zerg's ramp while killing his natural? Using force fields effectively in small chokes? Is that impossibility early game? Where would an observer spawn if a robo wasn't required? From a gateway? I just feels stupid. If you need detection you can just warp good amount of observers instantly. Poor idea. Good example how stupid can 2000+ diamond player be. I have to agree with nazgul, most protosses in gsl 2 just played horribly. Not enough skill to make it into round of 4. Posts like this always make me laugh. Not enough skill? Yeah, the best sc2 beta player is sooo mediocre in term of skill! The blizzcon winner just need to l2p! Saying that NONE of the protoss are skilled is not an argument. Instead of saying that, think about why there is less protoss. Instead of thinking, you basically just refuse to think and categorize everything with "l2p", "no skill" and "horrible play". I agree that there are mistakes in game. Honestly, who doesn't make mistakes. For Terrans and Zergs, none of those mistake would cost a game instantly while for Protoss, it WILL cost the game. You call other people stupid but you refuse to look at the core problem unlike those "stupid" people. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On November 11 2010 06:05 Chronicle wrote: Same can be said about zerg pre-patch, but they sure as hell complained en masse hence current patch. This isn't really sound reasoning. If your point is complaining is worthwhile because it get buffs for your race, it makes the discussion degenerate (if it isn't already there) to each player claiming their race is terrible while other races have all the advantages. If this is all the discussion is about, any subjective complaints which could be self-serving will be dismissed by anyone who understands the conflict of interest involved. On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. While I certainly cannot dispute that you would have a better vantage point to the reason Protoss are not comparing as well in tournaments and in high level ladder play, I must ask, then, what do you believe the reason is for the lower representation there? Or, do you believe the comparison being made in this thread is incorrect in principle? | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 11 2010 06:11 gray-fox wrote: How would you nerf force fields seriously? And if gateway units are buffed they will destroy everything. It really seems you don't have a clue about balancing the game. Can't use force fields in small numbers? Not true. Forcefielding zerg's ramp while killing his natural? Using force fields effectively in small chokes? Is that impossibility early game? Where would an observer spawn if a robo wasn't required? From a gateway? I just feels stupid. If you need detection you can just warp good amount of observers instantly. Poor idea. Good example how stupid can 2000+ diamond player be. I have to agree with nazgul, most protosses in gsl 2 just played horribly. Not enough skill to make it into round of 4. If gateway units are buffed they destroy everything? Do you know that charge zealots can be kited? Do you know that stalkers lack the brute force that units like the marauder and roach have? The zealot is our brute force / tank unit, but it is extremely hard to get them to work against terrans, unless you have 100 force fields. Also do you know that stalkers have an insanely low dps/cost? Futhermore, do you know blizzard intended that the zealot is a counter to the marauder, while this is actually not the case? How would force field be nerfed? They can cost more mana, they can become a cooldown based spell? Maybe with the proper change to gateway they won' t need that much tweaking at all? Buffing gateway units will destroy? It is actually a really complicated problem. Buffing the stalker dps is the best choice imo. It is an all round unit, but it also needs the dps / cost of an all round unit. Actually, doing nothing to force fields and adding 1 or 2 damage to the stalker seems like a reasonable option. Either to the base damage or to the bonus to armored (most likely the 2nd option). It's not excessive and it will allow the stalker to compete with the other allround units on the dps / cost area, like the marine or hydra. (also note I am not forgetting hp and other factors, honestly, the stalker's dps/cost is very weak, even for it's health) Where would the observer be built? Humm... Re-Read my post? From the observatory obviously! Now talking about my ladder points is not very nice, no but I feel like it is required. If I don' t do that then nobody will listen and everyone will say that I am talking shit. Or... maybe that's just on the battle.net forums, it looks like things are different here. On November 11 2010 06:05 Numy wrote: While the rest of your post I thought was quite good I just can't help cringing at this. How do the statistics have any say in the actual ingame performances? They don't really prove anything about that, but they can give an indication. There is no reason a toss player should not be able to be as skilled as a terran player. Why are we not seeing toss players winning? Tester dominated the beta, but with constant protoss nerfs and zerg/terran buffs (and nerfs too), he dropped and in GSL 2 he didn' t even make it through the qualifiers. The reason nexgenious wins sometimes is because he takes A LOT of risk, because a lot of (especially PvT) strategies are a big gamble. There is only 1 stable tech path, which is robo. | ||
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Ekko
United States72 Posts
I keep wondering if my APM just isn't high enough and that there has to be something that is creative/interesting about the protoss race or some strategy that has not been found. I still think that as is protoss is the least likely to win tournaments not because of unit imbalance but because of pure lack of creativity in army structure. I'm not giving up yet but I don't know how much longer I can stand just going zealot, stalker, ob, immortal, lots of stalker, expand, collosi in whatever order. | ||
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crun
Poland30 Posts
-Remove the Twilight Council from the game -Make Templar Archives the new Twilight Council, have it require a Dark Shrine. Techpath is now DarkShrine (DT) -> Templar Archives (HT) -Nerf DT so they are visible while they are attacking. -Make an "enhanced Cloak" upgrade for DT from the Dark Shrine to allow them to stay invisible when attacking (same as current DT). -Allow HT's to start with Psi Storm -Make "Archon Morph" a Templar Upgrade on Templar Archives -Put Charge on the Cybernetics Core. -Put Blink on the Dark Shrine. best idea so far. also, psi storm should detect invisible units. although i know there is no chance they will make so huge gameplay changes. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:48 H0i wrote: Nexus allowing you to make gateway would be a bit crazy, but is your idea of it realistic? No pylon means no food, and for 2 zealots you need 4 food. That means a 6-pool toss style? Trust me it won't be effective. It's much better to just get the pylon. I like the idea but a gateway should require a pylon. Warping in around a nexus without making a pylon would be a better use of it IMO. It is not sure if toss has an advantage late game. Maybe, but 99.9% of the games don't reach late game. Protoss doesn' t just need to reach late game to have a fair chance, they need to reach late game without being behind too far. This never happens. The last argument is simply a load of crap that makes no sense at all, plus because it happens to a few friends that doesn' t mean it always happens. 6 Gate, 1 probe made during gate construction, after gate finishes you get zealot and start building another pylon with probe. You keep using chronoboost on zealots. This would be INSANE fast and not so all-in like 6 pool (due to 1 probe constructed and not losing one to get pool). Obviously to strong on maps like Steppes of War when now terran needs depo before rax. | ||
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