EPTThis also touches on one aspect of PvT that I dont like, tho it's not neccecarily an imbalance; Vikings counter 5-6 Protoss units.... It's a bit much. Especially since neither of those countered units are particularly cheap or easy to get.
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 74
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
This also touches on one aspect of PvT that I dont like, tho it's not neccecarily an imbalance; Vikings counter 5-6 Protoss units.... It's a bit much. Especially since neither of those countered units are particularly cheap or easy to get. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 11 2010 03:50 Chronicle wrote: Your not the sharpest tool in the toolbox. Protoss are heavily unpowered as a whole because Forcefield is insanely good and "almost" balances it out. Yeah protoss are not helpless atm even though they are heavily unpowered overall, they can still win games. Why? THEY HAVE FORCEFIELDS Any protoss army, no matter what it is comprised of will loose to any composition of a Terran/Zerg army of equal cost without alot of sentry's spamming forcefields. Protoss have been balanced around the forcefield since the beta, and its about time that was changed. I agree here with what this guy is saying. Has anyone stopped to think about each race and lore and how it is supposed to represented in the game? Even in the new overview videos that blizzard posted the forcefield is one of the main things they highlight they also bring up lore saying there aren't many Protoss left but what they make up for it in is there tech!! Blizzards blizzcon panel said they wanted zerg to mass and swarm and some of the changes they made were to reflect that. Protoss is suppose to be stronger with less but still balanced that is what makes protoss so hard to balance is because 1 thing can make them roll over the other races if the tweak is to the early game or say tier 1 units. I would say that a tweak to carriers would help but the unit design as it is makes it bad. Only good idea I can see is making dts available earlier that 1 unit could make Protoss matchups more often and maybe could change pvp from being a colossus fest. Protoss will live by and die by the Forcefield it fits the image that Blizzard wants for the Race. | ||
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patron
United States63 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:06 Chronicle wrote: Not after the earlygame its not. Example if them games Naz did vs Idra lasted to the 80-100 food mark, you would of seen alot of forcefields from Naz. Hell the only reason he won game 1 was because of using the "Natural" forcefield of the Wolf Statue. If IdrA had destroyed that statue in advance (for watever reason) they stalkers would of most likely died in a similar fashion to what happened in game 2. Don't get me wrong - FF is amazing against zerg's early game. Heck, sentries in general are pretty awesome. But, to me, this is more related to zerg being able to mount a 2-base attack long before toss has anything like a 2-base economy. FF does save us there, but I don't believe that we need saving because of anything like our units being underpowered. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:11 Promises wrote: One thing that would just make Protoss a lot more interesting (and a bit stronger but I feel (completely unargumented but still) that it wouldnt be overpowered) is to just make Warp Prisms a lot frigging faster. At the moment they'r expensive, come out of an important producement structure, are horribly slow and Protoss lacks real power units to drop to begin with. If the Prisms were fast quick darts in and out while retrieving troops and getting away from vikings etc would be possible, and would make for a lot more interesting PvT imo. This also touches on one aspect of PvT that I dont like, tho it's not neccecarily an imbalance; Vikings counter 5-6 Protoss units.... It's a bit much. Especially since neither of those countered units are particularly cheap or easy to get. I recommend to check upgrades inside the support dock, 100/100 done after 2 chronoboosts. or at the same time as a chrono boosted colossi. And if they aren't microed it would get away from stimmed marines. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:19 patron wrote: I've always thought it would be cool if the Nexus had it's own psi field, that way toss could gate before pylon, certainly doesn't help much with the banshee situation, except that it allows for much earlier aggression which would likely have a snowball affect. That combined with cybercore unlocking cannons would be golden if you ask me. Like there would be 2 chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War in terran's base while terran would have one marine ? Don't post ridiculous shit. As for sick whining about PvT, yes its hard for protoss to survive early game. But thats all they need to do. Last game TvP I gained advantage by timing pushes when he lost two chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War and lost rallied Immortal. And won due to multi-dropping. If not the mid game multi tasking, I would have lost to another less skilled protoss, because playing against them mid game/late game IS DAMN HARD. And you want to make protoss early game as strong as other races ? Ok, but nerf their late game too. It's not like " buff early game because I only lose at this time of the game". And another fun fact is that, Terran almost always plays against Protoss with lesser points (checked on multiply accounts of friends who plays Terran's) And difference is like 200 points. So, it seems PvT favours Protoss, not the Terran. | ||
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
Diamond: Protoss 49.6% Against Terran Protoss 52.8% against Zerg Platinum: Protoss 56% against Terran Protoss 47% against Zerg 61% PvT in Gold 63% PvT in Silver -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for helping us make our point. As player skill goes up, protoss win percentage goes down in each league to the point where in the top 200 protoss has by far the fewest members and in the top SC2 tournament, the GSL, which this thread is about BTW, has never had a semifinalist. People arent exploiting the rigidity of protoss builds and doing effective harassment in silver, they are in pro tournaments. When you exploit those protosses weaknesses protoss becomes a bad race which we are beginning to see at the top levels, and it will continue to trickle down as players get better and copy pro styles. | ||
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gorath
Germany19 Posts
Your subejctive feelings and "research" is worth nothing in light of millions of games and tens of thousands of players that suggest something completely different. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:29 Huragius wrote: Like there would be 2 chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War in terran's base while terran would have one marine ? Don't post ridiculous shit. As for sick whining about PvT, yes its hard for protoss to survive early game. But thats all they need to do. Last game TvP I gained advantage by timing pushes when he lost two chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War and lost rallied Immortal. And won due to multi-dropping. If not the mid game multi tasking, I would have lost to another less skilled protoss, because playing against them mid game/late game IS DAMN HARD. And you want to make protoss early game as strong as other races ? Ok, but nerf their late game too. It's not like " buff early game because I only lose at this time of the game". And another fun fact is that, Terran almost always plays against Protoss with lesser points (checked on multiply accounts of friends who plays Terran's) And difference is like 200 points. So, it seems PvT favours Protoss, not the Terran. I love how Terrans are acting like lategame is unplayable for them. Yes Protoss has an advantage in lategame, but it's nowhere as bad like all the Terrans make it seems to be. On top of that, your arguments just doesn't work... You claim that your opponent is "less skilled" and yet you are saying that passing early game it is an auto-win for Protoss (which is not the case at all). The fun fact that you pointed out are from the accounts of your friends. What is that suppose to prove? Do you know that just because your friends play against lower point protoss, it doesn't mean that everybody do? You are not the benchmark of Terran players and neither is your opponents. This thread is talking about high level protoss players in general, GSL more specifically. What you experience is nowhere near that. | ||
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zomgad
185 Posts
every change needs to be thought out first becaue even slightest change would totaly destroy balance in this MU (now tvp is pretty balanced winrotio wise) look what happened when blizzard took away early pressure in tvz, zergs are raping terrans all over the place and before the patch balance of this MU wasnt even close to balance of current pvt. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:29 Huragius wrote: Like there would be 2 chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War in terran's base while terran would have one marine ? Don't post ridiculous shit. As for sick whining about PvT, yes its hard for protoss to survive early game. But thats all they need to do. Last game TvP I gained advantage by timing pushes when he lost two chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War and lost rallied Immortal. And won due to multi-dropping. If not the mid game multi tasking, I would have lost to another less skilled protoss, because playing against them mid game/late game IS DAMN HARD. And you want to make protoss early game as strong as other races ? Ok, but nerf their late game too. It's not like " buff early game because I only lose at this time of the game". And another fun fact is that, Terran almost always plays against Protoss with lesser points (checked on multiply accounts of friends who plays Terran's) And difference is like 200 points. So, it seems PvT favours Protoss, not the Terran. Nexus allowing you to make gateway would be a bit crazy, but is your idea of it realistic? No pylon means no food, and for 2 zealots you need 4 food. That means a 6-pool toss style? Trust me it won't be effective. It's much better to just get the pylon. I like the idea but a gateway should require a pylon. Warping in around a nexus without making a pylon would be a better use of it IMO. It is not sure if toss has an advantage late game. Maybe, but 99.9% of the games don't reach late game. Protoss doesn' t just need to reach late game to have a fair chance, they need to reach late game without being behind too far. This never happens. The last argument is simply a load of crap that makes no sense at all, plus because it happens to a few friends that doesn' t mean it always happens. | ||
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TungVu
Vietnam25 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:29 Huragius wrote: Like there would be 2 chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War in terran's base while terran would have one marine ? Don't post ridiculous shit. As for sick whining about PvT, yes its hard for protoss to survive early game. But thats all they need to do. Last game TvP I gained advantage by timing pushes when he lost two chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War and lost rallied Immortal. And won due to multi-dropping. If not the mid game multi tasking, I would have lost to another less skilled protoss, because playing against them mid game/late game IS DAMN HARD. And you want to make protoss early game as strong as other races ? Ok, but nerf their late game too. It's not like " buff early game because I only lose at this time of the game". And another fun fact is that, Terran almost always plays against Protoss with lesser points (checked on multiply accounts of friends who plays Terran's) And difference is like 200 points. So, it seems PvT favours Protoss, not the Terran. Stupid post is stupid User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Well never fought ghosts with this unit combo, but you would need to be really carefull with the ghosts against the phenix. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
late game is only bearable because early T has advantage, take early pressure from P and u will see them fast expanding and teching to t3 at the same time for the doom army combination every change needs to be thought out first becaue even slightest change would totaly destroy balance in this MU (now tvp is pretty balanced winrotio wise) look what happened when blizzard took away early pressure in tvz, zergs are raping terrans all over the place and before the patch balance of this MU wasnt even close to balance of current pvt. Maybe that's why there are no zergs in the top 4 of MLG :S. Oh..... wait. I honestly believe that TvZ match up is kinda balanced right now but I don't play either race so you can ignore my comment. | ||
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:29 FeyFey wrote: I recommend to check upgrades inside the support dock, 100/100 done after 2 chronoboosts. or at the same time as a chrono boosted colossi. And if they aren't microed it would get away from stimmed marines. Wow thanks, after only 300/300 more invested I can finally do some harass! I'm being a bit harsh here and you are right that it is available, but not in any sense in the way it's available to the other races. While Zerg still has to really choose to go drops, they do get massive, massive drops when they do, while terran gets it as a sort of a side-thought to medivacs, which (so every terran I spoke to agreed) would build anyways if it didnt have drop. For Protoss it's a pretty big investment even without the speed, and the drops end up being the weakest of the 3 races, with the least-getting away abilities; it just doesnt work out. My point would be that if the Warp Prism came with the upgrade included they might see some more use, as there'd be more chance to get your (if filled at the least 600 minerals) batch of units out of there again. | ||
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zomgad
185 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:51 dragonblade369 wrote: Maybe that's why there are no zergs in the top 4 of MLG :S. Oh..... wait. I honestly believe that TvZ match up is kinda balanced right now but I don't play either race so you can ignore my comment. 1st zergs got eliminated by toss with exception of idra who lost to cheeses 2nd outcome of one tourney proves nothing | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On November 11 2010 04:59 Protoss_Carrier wrote: Do you guys think a blink upgrade for DT would help? or maybe have blink comes with DT and void prison (stasis for one unit) an upgradable ability? blink would definitely be cool, void prison would be insanely OP vs zerg | ||
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