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On November 10 2010 23:57 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 19:44 Morphs wrote:The beauty of starcraft is that each race requires a different skill set. True, P has some in-combat abilities like FF that need to be done well. Z has two macro-mechanics (larvae, creep) and must use FG well when using infestors. I'm not really sure what particular skillset is required for T though... lifting bulldings to switch add-ons? Knowing when to build what, positioning, bio micro etc. There is a vocal minority of protoss (but not limited to protoss) players who will take any opportunity to preach how underpowered their race is, hoping it will become consensus and result in a buff. I think we will see protoss changes soon, however, I expect either Collussus or High templar, if not both, to be nerfed. Show nested quote +Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. Banshee "rushing" would still happen, but they wouldn't have cloak. I wouldnt cry about it if it happened, but I don't think Terran has too many more openings to close.... The fact that you must preemptively defend something against a race (like get detection) doesnt mean its overpowered.
lol like your vikings havent been able to kill any Collosus lately w their 9 range weapon.
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Psi storm doesnt detect. It does damage of course but which cloaked strike force (dts, banshees, ghosts) will sit still in a storm for the 2 or 3 durations it takes to kill them?
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I entered this thread expecting an awful load of QQ, brainless one-liners, flaming this way and the other... and i found a nice discussion, at least the last few pages.
I would have to agree with the consensus the last few pages that a big problem PvT is that you are forced into one tech-route.
I like the idea that cyber unlocks Observers to be buildt, it could possibly make P to powerful tho, hard to say. Awesome early scouting but it costs plenty of gas for early game. Also like the idea of non-cloaked Observers from Nexus with the possibility of researching perma-cloak from Robo Bay.
I dont think P is weaker really than Z or T, they are stronger at some points and weaker at others. But the almsot forced Robo opening is a big hamper. At my level they feel balanced, but it is sad to not see Protoss go far in GSL, why i can only speculate on but giving easier acces to detection PvT is one change i would fully support.
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Actually, as i walked away i came up with another solution, make feedback Area of effect with an area of like 2ft allowing templars to cast it on cloaked units (assuming the P player can locate it while cloaked). Would make templar tech route possible before robo.
Not sure about the timing when opening Air, will a scouting fast Phoenix see the Banshee/Starport in time for the P to get a forge and cannons up before cloak is done? Got a feeling the answer is no but not sure myself.
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On November 10 2010 23:57 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 19:44 Morphs wrote:The beauty of starcraft is that each race requires a different skill set. True, P has some in-combat abilities like FF that need to be done well. Z has two macro-mechanics (larvae, creep) and must use FG well when using infestors. I'm not really sure what particular skillset is required for T though... lifting bulldings to switch add-ons? Knowing when to build what, positioning, bio micro etc. There is a vocal minority of protoss (but not limited to protoss) players who will take any opportunity to preach how underpowered their race is, hoping it will become consensus and result in a buff. I think we will see protoss changes soon, however, I expect either Collussus or High templar, if not both, to be nerfed. Show nested quote +Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. Banshee "rushing" would still happen, but they wouldn't have cloak. I wouldnt cry about it if it happened, but I don't think Terran has too many more openings to close.... The fact that you must preemptively defend something against a race (like get detection) doesnt mean its overpowered.
Re: First Bold
Is your point that some people wish to break the game for their personal benefit? You are welcome to see that if you wish, but I think the more likely possibility for some is that their race is the reason for their losing in ladder matches (something some believe). I find it difficult to come up with more than a small handful of losses that I might have won if some moderate balance change was made to toss. The fundamentals of the game (primarily positioning, macro, and multitasking) represent most of the reason people have issues on ladder. The good news for you is that even with a moderate change (something like roach range), this will still be the reason for most of your losses to Protoss as well.
However, I see very few statistics which show Protoss as having the representation it should have at high levels - that's the crux of the argument. Protoss here are speculating as to why that might be. I might also add that there is a vocal minority of players who will deny any form or degree of imbalance if it results in an undesirable change for another race, no matter how glaring the evidence is. This game is not balanced and never will be, but it can become *more* balanced.
Re: Second Bold
This is true, and would remain so even if Terran's early all-in MM pushes required all of one's resources (i.e. you couldn't get detection and still defend). However, the direction this "balance" (where you determine the strategy that you demolish and the strategy that you flat out lose to before the game occurs) is headed isn't healthy for the robustness of a macro-oriented strategy game. Currently, Terran opponents know the only 5 combat units all Protoss will have access to if they want to defend a strong early push and get detection. It's hard to call that robust gameplay.
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On November 11 2010 00:07 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 23:07 Wayem wrote:
Yes there is a problem of detection for protoss. But I don't know if an ob obtained in a different way would be the best answer.
PvT: banshees are an issue. Cloack ghosts too but this tends to be end game so let's assume you'll have your robo anyway. So: banshees.
PvZ: you can basically guess what the Z does by poking in front of his entrance. Example: mass spines / speelings = mutas. The problem here is nor detection (you'll tend to get immortals for burrow roaches) nor scouting. You can have an ob end game on top of his base and maphack this wouldn't solve the problem of mass tech switching at all. So: nothing.
PvP: dark templars obviously. But you tend to go robo for colossi anyway. If not, air suxx pvp (phoenix are ridiculous vs colossi) and HT are lol. So if you go for example blink stalkers/chargelots build a forge early/mid game and later get your robo while you get colossi on 2/3 robos with multi bases anyway. So: nothing.
Problem of detection lies mainly in banshees. Why do they need cloack ? Not for much... if it's available as it is, it's kind of "win right now or lose resources" for the terran as all protoss have to go robo. If they don't, they lose, if they do banshees are not more threatening as uncloaked.
Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. I can agree with most of this post, detection is a problem for Protoss simply because it forces a tech path AND costs a lot AND takes so long! Terran detection is just a mouseclick away if you have enough energy. Increasing banshee cloak build time and cost would come a huge way to helping.
Banshees already take 60 seconds to build. Any longer and they'd be up there with the Colossus.
Edit: and actually 2-3 chrono boosts on a Colossus makes the build time on the two roughly equivalent. I don't think build time is the correct avenue for any adjustments to be made.
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On November 11 2010 00:29 DND_Enkil wrote:
Actually, as i walked away i came up with another solution, make feedback Area of effect with an area of like 2ft allowing templars to cast it on cloaked units (assuming the P player can locate it while cloaked). Would make templar tech route possible before robo.
Not sure about the timing when opening Air, will a scouting fast Phoenix see the Banshee/Starport in time for the P to get a forge and cannons up before cloak is done? Got a feeling the answer is no but not sure myself.
Templars don't come fast enough, a banshee with cloak enters your base faster.
Cannons are not a defense against cloaked banshees. If you get so many cannons that you can defend with them against the banshees then the rush succeeded. They can protect your mineral line, but if you want to protect your army and pylons too then this will cost a lot of money. It also contains you.
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The problem with a non-cloakced obs is that you cant scout with it and in all MU Toss need that obs to see the enemy path tech to react accordingly hence the forced robo tech. Why is that? Because our gateway units are so weak and we need to tech to higher tier units to be able to deal w T1 units from other races.
Cloaked banshee is a concern yes but it in itself is not as dangerous as not knowing what your enemy is going for as a protoss. Imagine you go robo and mass like 3 Collosi and our of nowhere comes a shit load of mutas and kill your whole army or you go blink stalkers and they infestors, the list goes on.
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On November 10 2010 23:25 KazaDooM wrote:
Protoss in general has very few options to detect compared to T,Z
T has 4
Scan, Turret, Raven, EMP
Z has 3
Fungal, Spore, Overseer
P hast 2
Observer, Cannon
Maybe give psystorm detection? or add a spell to the sentry?
Or even give Detection to the mothership^^
Dude protoss detection problems come early to mid game, if your on 2 - 3 bases and teching to storm or motherships and haven't got an observer on the field there's something wrong with your gameplay.
the sentry spell idea you suggested i like, the 1 problem i see is; its not often you find a sentry with much energy, their other two spells are sooooo important that they don't have much energy for much else, also ghosts are tech 1.5 and wipe full energy from sentries too.
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So how about adding the good old observatory that you can build after the cyber core, for 100/50.
Maybe observer cost can even be "diminishing return" so that the 1st observer costs 25/50, the 2nd costs 50/100, 3rd and up 100/200 (numbers based on observers out on the field, not on observers produced).
This will compromise for the increased cost early game, because you will need another building, and it will make observers more expensive if you have more.
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Although detection is annoying, and having something readily available from general tech would be nice, most of the losses in the GSL/MLG are not related to cloaked banshees. The fact is that against Terran, gateway units are just lack luster. Since they can add vikings to pick off Collossi or ghosts to EMP HTs the late game advantage really isn't as big as people seemed to believe. EMP has the added benefit of taking half of Protoss units health and keeping sentries from casting FF. Zealots are really lackluster against Terran because of stim kiting and concussive shells. Stalkers of course because of Maraduars and sentries of course because of low damage and health plus EMP making them ineffective. Spread isn't really a solution to the FF problem because FF's effectiveness relies on having lots of energy to contain the T army. If half of your sentries are EMP'd you're probably in bad shape. Carriers might be more viable if their build time wasn't horrendously long, interceptors repaired like BW, and they were just a little bit faster(really just a little bit).
Note on detection: Cannon detection range is actually huge compared to it's attack range. So as far as cloaked units are concerned you can defend a mineral line relatively easily with 1 or 2 cannons and your normal units.
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because they played bad ?
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It really makes you think, how the hell did Blizz get BW balanced?
I think the biggest problem with toss, is gateway units sucking. But because toss gets warp gates early and sentry support, Stalkers and Zealots can't be too good else the race will be OP.
Personally I would rather toss gets warp gates late, and move sentries to the robo, to get a stalker that is as powerful as a dragoon.
Toss always has to build Stalkers and zealots, but because they suck and towards the later parts of the game they get worse and worse, the balance for the race is off.
Also I don't get why Blizz thinks it makes sense for toss to have a unit composition early on. Protoss units are expensive and take time, it makes no sense to have several different units types or tech types early; it automatically means toss has to defend just to get up a decent army.
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There is a vocal minority of protoss (but not limited to protoss) players who will take any opportunity to preach how underpowered their race is, hoping it will become consensus and result in a buff. I think we will see protoss changes soon, however, I expect either Collussus or High templar, if not both, to be nerfed.
If either collossos or HT gets nerfed then we will need gateway units to be buffed.
We need those "tier 3" to barely survive and it will be really difficult to do so if they get nerfed again.
btw: i bet all the players who complain about balance are really hoping for a change so they can see better matchups and not to win more. One has almost at all times 50% wins, it isnt some tweaks in balance that is gonna change this. The problem is at HIGH level where you see that protoss is doing terrible and we can see how dull PvT is and how few units protoss uses. It is a shame that HUK rushed for THE ULTIMATE PROTOSS unit and then it gets killed so easly, or that 2 tech paths are complete stangers to protoss. We try to make the game more balanced so all players can enjoy themselves more. Play this game should be fun not the same BO over and over again.
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On November 11 2010 00:42 H0i wrote:
So how about adding the good old observatory that you can build after the cyber core, for 100/50.
Maybe observer cost can even be "diminishing return" so that the 1st observer costs 25/50, the 2nd costs 50/100, 3rd and up 100/200 (numbers based on observers out on the field, not on observers produced).
This will compromise for the increased cost early game, because you will need another building, and it will make observers more expensive if you have more.
Needlessly complicated...
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PvT? Oh, looks like I'm rushing to my robo bay, because the last time I tried to go 2-gate, or stargate, or twilight, I got completely rocked by cloaked banshees.
I never tried just getting an early forge and plopping down a cannon at my mineral line. That may even allow a fast-expand, as a lot of their money is tied up in the Terran's tech, and all you need is a couple stalkers and cannons.
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On November 10 2010 01:10 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =) I suggest you to imagine Protoss ball of death in right hands (by in right hands I mean Tester/Genious/HuK playing). Ball of death consists of HT, Colossi, Stalker, Zealot, Sentry, Immortal. Now, as a terran what can you do vs that? -Of course you can go mass Thor, but its unrealistic, you don't have enough factories. -Tanks? Protoss will just walk away and take expo. -MMM? they're melted right away. -EMP? again, protoss walks away since you can't attack kiting Colossis. Thats called protoss late game advantage. But the actual problem is that protoss just don't survive till late game. Its Dilemma, which can be solved only by Blizzard.
So basically we theorycraft that a Protoss army with a full choice of units beats any other army, but we've never actually seen it in any competetive field? Isnt that a bit.... uhm thin? I'm not at all saying Protoss are UP, I think there's a lot of undiscovered potetional that the likes of Tyler, Tester and perhaps Sangho can get out, but I'm trying to get to grips with where this Toss is horribly OP lategame comes from, as I can't really see much proof for it. This doesnt mean it isnt so, but I'd like a bit more reason to believe it then "imagine this army, it's hard to beat straight up".
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I never seen Blizzard change the building in which a unit is built from, and adding a building may only be a slight possibility with an expansion so I don't think making these kind of suggestions are worthwhile. (I wish they were though, man would I love to see them take away the mothership and bring back the arbiter).
I think one small change that blizzard can make that would at least make P harassment more viable is reducing the cost of the Warp prism. I honestly think that Blizzard decided on 200 minerals is because it's protoss unit, and protoss units are supposed to be expensive. It really doesn't have the dual purpose of a medevac or an overlord. The ability to warp in units is pretty cool, but it's almost always a suicide mission because there isn't a enough room in the warp prism, or converting it back to flying mode takes too long. Harassment is pretty pointless if the death of your harassing units are guaranteed. I'd say 150 minerals for the warp prism would make more sense.
I admit that this doesn't solve the deeper issue which is the dependency on the robo bay. I'm at a loss on how to fix it without making some deep underlying changes in the tech tree, which I'm sure blizzard will avoid. I think void rays might have been nerfed just a little to much. But honestly, the mothership has to be Blizzard's biggest mistake, but that's a rant that I'll spare everyone.
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On November 11 2010 00:42 H0i wrote:
So how about adding the good old observatory that you can build after the cyber core, for 100/50.
Maybe observer cost can even be "diminishing return" so that the 1st observer costs 25/50, the 2nd costs 50/100, 3rd and up 100/200 (numbers based on observers out on the field, not on observers produced).
This will compromise for the increased cost early game, because you will need another building, and it will make observers more expensive if you have more.
Like in BW you mean? So you still have to build a robo fac and need a observatory after your robotics facility is finished so it takes even longer to build? Not a good idea imo 
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On November 11 2010 00:29 DND_Enkil wrote:
Not sure about the timing when opening Air, will a scouting fast Phoenix see the Banshee/Starport in time for the P to get a forge and cannons up before cloak is done? Got a feeling the answer is no but not sure myself.
I used to open Stargate consistently against Terran, because of Void Ray. I would find that my VR would come out in time to deal with uncloaked banshee rushes, and could even harass their base because they would not have many units. Even if they were killing my probes, I was killing their SCVs. You could still try this, but you will find that VR as of current patch, cannot deal with 2 or 3 rax aggression, kills banshee too slowly, and.do not harass a base protected by even 4 marines. If they undid the VR nerf, you could easily buy enough time to get observers or cannons.
Really I have not had any problem with Banshees until I abandoned my Stargate play. Even with going Robo first, you still *have* to scout what they are doing, and if they are going banshee, then get tons of gateways for stalkers or a stargate for phoenix. But if they are going raven/banshee timing push you have probably just GG'd.
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EPT
